2010.09.24 01:00 - The Bible is full of sheep

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    Wol Euler was guardian and very tardy poster for this session.


    Wol Euler: hello bert
    Bertram Jacobus: heyy wol ! :-))
    Wol Euler: good morning! I hope you slept well?
    Bertram Jacobus: is this one of your many weekly slots you cover ? ;-)
    Wol Euler: heheh, this is my only "real" slot
    Bertram Jacobus: ty, yes, i always sleep well - a gift. and how about you ? :-)
    Wol Euler: not enough, but well
    Wol Euler: I could have used anohter hour or so
    Wol Euler: but I had to be here
    Wol Euler: hello satia
    Satia Ruby: HEL-LOOOOO =)
    Bertram Jacobus: heyy satia ! welcome and take a seat plz :-)
    Wol Euler: have you been here before?
    Satia Ruby: give me a minute to rezz *GIGGLES* :)wol 06 October 2010
    Bertram Jacobus: she is a friend of mine wol ...
    Wol Euler: ok, ty
    Bertram Jacobus: ty2 ! :-)
    Satia Ruby: :D
    Wol Euler: so, what shall we talk about today?
    Bertram Jacobus: we record the talks here and put it on a wiki satia and have to ask all here for permission to do so. that is part of our so to call "statues" i would say - correctly wol ? ;-)
    Wol Euler: *statutes*
    Satia Ruby: hmm
    Wol Euler: and yes, we do record and we do ask your permission to publish
    Bertram Jacobus: and for sure, the wiki is open to be reab by all and such. a kind of researching project satia - so : is this ok for you, plz ? ;-)
    Wol Euler: http://wiki.playasbeing.org/
    Satia Ruby: haha yes okay..
    Bertram Jacobus: hehe. great :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: and ty ! :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: and wol : i mostly don't plan what about i talk ... hm - but ... may be you have a suggestion ? :-)
    Wol Euler: that notecard will tell you the basics about who we are (the group taht meets here)
    Wol Euler: I suppose that we (Bert and I) could talk about the RL retreat that is coming up. We have some cooordination to arrange
    Bertram Jacobus: i just had started to read a bit on our wiki site wol - may be uncredible, but : most i never read - bisher - how to say that in english plz ? :-)
    Wol Euler: previously
    Wol Euler: or "so far"
    Wol Euler: hello Darren
    Bertram Jacobus: tyvm wol ! :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: and hello darren :-)
    Darren Islar: hi Wol, Bert Satia :)
    Satia Ruby: hi darren :)
    Satia Ruby: i'm sorry but i got a tp i need to go :( was nice to met you guys :)
    Darren Islar smiles at Wol's tag
    Wol Euler: ok, enjoy the day Satia
    Bertram Jacobus: cu satia and we stay in contact ok ? ;-)
    Wol Euler: :)
    Satia Ruby: thanks you too :)
    Darren Islar: bye Satia
    Bertram Jacobus: so easy here with IMs ... :o)
    Satia Ruby: sure :)
    Bertram Jacobus: it's nearly like telepathy lol ... :-)
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    Wol Euler: so much of what our ancestors wished for, is real in our world now
    Bertram Jacobus: really convenient ! ... :-)
    Wol Euler: things that would have seemed miraculous to them
    Wol Euler: but which we use without noticing.
    Wol Euler: I think what would surprise them most, actually, is not any particular thing in itself
    Wol Euler: but the fact of ABUNDANCE
    Wol Euler: that we have more than enough of everything
    Darren Islar: and still don't know how to deal with it
    Wol Euler: (for certain values of "we", obviuosly)
    Wol Euler: yes, darren. It's a problem that we don't know how to address.
    Darren Islar: every time we create more, our mind need to do more, cope with more information and organization
    Darren Islar: abundance seems to make us restless
    Wol Euler nods.
    Bertram Jacobus: i find this use of "we" often very brave - and don't feel included to that often, at the same time ...
    Wol Euler: well, yes. we the society around us.
    Wol Euler: but also myself. I have more shirts than I can wear in a month. Why?
    Darren Islar: we are no separations of that
    Darren Islar: it is hard to distract ourselves from it
    Wol Euler: why do I have four pair of shoes but only one pair of feet?
    Darren Islar: only four?
    Bertram Jacobus: but i don't feel also so separeted from it also , often not in such a generalizing way as those "wes" sugest it (?)
    Darren Islar: ;)
    Wol Euler: :)
    Wol Euler: I think the generalization is valid, generally speaking :)
    Wol Euler: look at any supermarket
    Darren Islar: I mean we are 'social animals', we take part in it
    Bertram Jacobus: because "variatio delectat" as the romans said : variations can bring joy
    Wol Euler: there is so much stuff there that it won't all be sold, cannot all be sold. Some will be thrown away
    Wol Euler: and some that *does* get sold, will be taken home and put away and forgotten, and then it too will be thrown away
    Darren Islar suddenly thinks the ceiling is very interesting :))
    Wol Euler: oh dear :)
    Wol Euler: I'll shut up, then.
    Wol Euler: but I do it too.
    Darren Islar: oh no, I meant that I do throw things away too
    Darren Islar: don't feel good about it, but do it anyway
    Wol Euler nods. I know.
    Wol Euler: I buy healthy food in the hope that it will magically give me the time to cook it properly
    Bertram Jacobus: and at the same time there is poverty ...
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    Darren Islar: :))
    Darren Islar: yes
    Bertram Jacobus: the allocation is not good
    Wol Euler: agreed
    Bertram Jacobus: and in general, i think, we need a change of values
    Wol Euler: agreed
    Bertram Jacobus: oh - not we lol
    Wol Euler: sure, the same "we" that I started with
    Darren Islar: that includes me
    Bertram Jacobus: but i would like it when we would experience it
    Bertram Jacobus: and i also hope it i can say here ...
    Bertram Jacobus: the next age should be spiritual is my perspective ...
    Bertram Jacobus: that could solve our current problems
    Darren Islar: maybe
    Darren Islar: but more spiritual or not, they don't solve by themselves in some kind of miraculous way
    Wol Euler: sure, it will take work, and a change in our lifestyle, away from abundance and immediate gratification
    Darren Islar: and changes always come with great distress first
    Wol Euler: western capitalist society lives like little children in their parents' house: there is a refigerator that is always full of food, and the parents gratify *at once* our ever desire
    Wol Euler: we need to grow up.
    Wol Euler: (that "we" again)
    Darren Islar: :)
    Darren Islar: but you're right
    Darren Islar: human kind needs to grow up
    Darren Islar: taking up the responsibilities that comes with being able to think and develop culture
    Wol Euler nods.
    Darren Islar: hmmmmm :)
    Darren Islar: how boring a discussion can be if we agree all the time :))
    Wol Euler laughs.
    Bertram Jacobus: i don't find that at all !
    Wol Euler: but what a fine feeling of being right!
    Darren Islar: it is an important subject
    Darren Islar: yes Wol :))
    Wol Euler: also: of not being alone with this point of view.
    Darren Islar: but maybe it woud be interesting to get to a new stage
    Bertram Jacobus: and very constructive
    Bertram Jacobus: one can get new ideas, develop things together ...
    Darren Islar: like forming a community, very loose, but with some rules about how to deal with certain things
    Darren Islar: something that can effect our lives effectively
    Darren Islar: but in a smooth, comfortable way
    Bertram Jacobus: i think, from the ethics of being all those ways of acting and such occure by themselves
    Wol Euler: so bert teh question is then "how to get more people to follow the ethics of being"?
    Wol Euler: the Dalai Lama is trying, we too in our little ways
    Wol Euler: "be the change that you want to see" as Gandhi said
    Bertram Jacobus: to me, it's by living it and work on myself
    Darren Islar: yes, but still throwing away food, because there is no 'parent' to tell me, I need to do better
    Wol Euler smiles.
    Bertram Jacobus: hehe - seems to fit to the gandhi sentence :-)
    Wol Euler: both do.
    Wol Euler: what we need to change, at the core of it all, is our lifestyle
    Wol Euler: and our assumption that it is a style that can continue forever
    Bertram Jacobus: but you seem to know it darren - and that is what i mean with the work on oneself
    Wol Euler: both of these are wrong.
    Bertram Jacobus: i for example have many bad habits and to change them may need my whole lifetime
    Darren Islar: yes, but the next stage is to carry it out, and 'we' (including myself) often take the easy way
    Wol Euler: sure! me too!
    Darren Islar: if nobody is 'watching'
    Bertram Jacobus: may be and lets hope that at least i can change a bit and make a bit better in my behaviour ...
    Wol Euler: I throw away food (and electricity, and fresh clean water) all the time.
    Wol Euler: It's wrong, it should change. And in the long run it will change, whether or not we want.
    Bertram Jacobus: but i think, it was wise, when the buddha teached the middle way - it's relativity
    Darren Islar: Thich Nat Hahn made one five vows, that can keep you from doing those things
    Wol Euler: mmm?
    Darren Islar: but need to look up the vows :))
    Bertram Jacobus: i like some of thich nhat hanh very much ...
    Darren Islar: something like that can give you more awareness, more structure, like a community can
    Wol Euler nods.
    Darren Islar: I will look it up, but I'm afraid I need to go now
    Darren Islar: I have an rl-meeting coming up
    Wol Euler: bye darren, enjoy the day.
    Wol Euler: use your food wisely :)
    Darren Islar: thanks, same to you both :)
    Bertram Jacobus: okay darren - then have a nice day plz ! :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: and i think about the different ways of the buddha and jesus for example wol : as it is told, the buddha only teacged when he was asked, mostly at least - and jesus teached so to say from his inspiration, everywhere and always - seemed that he even said : let's fish humans and such ... hm :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: two very different ways of spreading, but both fine i think
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    Wol Euler: there is a wonderful passage in one of Terry Pratchett's discworld novels, "Small gods" which relates to that
    Bertram Jacobus: what does that passage say ?
    Wol Euler: I can't remember it word for word, but the essence is this:
    Wol Euler: as the small god of the title is beginning-to-be, he happens upon a shepherd who becomes his first prophet
    Wol Euler: and Pratchett says that this set the whole style of his religion, which would have been different had he met a goatherd instead
    Wol Euler: "because sheep are stupid and must be driven, whereas goats are intelligent and must be lead."
    Bertram Jacobus: hello nymf ! :-)
    Wol Euler: I found that fascinating.
    Wol Euler: hello nymf! long time no see
    Nymf Hathaway: Hi Wol & Bertram, long time
    Wol Euler: Jesus is a shepherd, Buddha is a goatherd
    Bertram Jacobus: whaow - cool way to look at it ! :-)
    Wol Euler nods and smiles.
    Bertram Jacobus: but may be the christians wouldn't like that so much - i only notice now - stupid bert ! :o)
    Wol Euler: that's the joy of reading Pratchett, he is full of such fascinating tiny insights.
    Wol Euler: well, it's not a secret :)
    Wol Euler: the bible is full of sheep. Goats occur very rarely.
    Bertram Jacobus: tz. lol :o)
    Bertram Jacobus: it's such a subtle task sometimes not to hurt people
    Wol Euler: oh yes
    Nymf Hathaway: agrees
    Wol Euler: wb selene
    Bertram Jacobus: heyyy selene ! good morning and welcome ! :-)
    Nymf Hathaway: Hello Selene
    Selene Northman: hi Bertram, likewise.. hope you are doing fine :)
    Selene Northman: Hello Nymf :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: ty. in the mornings mostly my worlds look still very fine - so yes, ty selene ... ;-)
    Wol Euler smiles.
    Wol Euler: my dears, I am afraid that RL is tugging at my elbow. I shall have to go to work.
    Wol Euler: enjoy the day, be happy and productive
    Wol Euler: and kind to yourselves
    Nymf Hathaway: Wishing you a lovely day Wol, nice to see you again
    Wol Euler: take care
    Bertram Jacobus: ok dear wol - ty for all have a great dday plz ! :-)
    Selene Northman: have a nice day wol :)
    Wol Euler: I'll do my very best, Miss Sophie.
    Bertram Jacobus: hehe
    Wol Euler: you can explain that to them bert :)
    Bertram Jacobus: tehy may know ... (?)
    Selene Northman: chuckles
    Selene Northman: yes
    Nymf Hathaway: Not me Bertram, have been away too long
    Bertram Jacobus: very famous at least in germany
    Nymf Hathaway: oke
    Bertram Jacobus: it's from a short funny so to say grotesqueness, which is showed in german television always on new yera's eve - called "dinner for one" - you don't know that nymf ? :-)
    Nymf Hathaway: No sounds like fun
    Nymf Hathaway: lives near Germany but seldom watches tv
    Bertram Jacobus: yes it is. it's about an old lady who insits in celebrating every year a special day - don't know - is it new year's eve ? - but not importnat :
    Bertram Jacobus: the "problem" is that she is very old already and all the guests are not living anymore - so her butler has to take over all their roles and also to take the drinks with all the food ... you may imagine how that then delevopes ... ;-)
    Nymf Hathaway: hahhahah yes. great concept
    Nymf Hathaway: how sweet
    Bertram Jacobus: hehe. and the old ladie's name is miss sophie ... ;o)
    Nymf Hathaway: will try to remember this around new years
    Bertram Jacobus: yeah ! :o)
    Bertram Jacobus: today i read again some lines of the pab site ... the very first ones - so nice ! ... ;-)
    Bertram Jacobus: and like to study that ...
    Nymf Hathaway: How long back was the first one?
    Selene Northman: so you are really into pab :)
    Bertram Jacobus: yes. i find it very helpful
    Bertram Jacobus: the first sentence for example : "Play as Being is a group of people exploring reality by using our own life as a laboratory."
    Bertram Jacobus: it's always possible to reserach such in very deep and wide ranges ...
    Bertram Jacobus: there are many aspects i appreciate very much - the appreciation of diversity for example or the aspect of playing . also the thought of sharing and listening ...
    Nymf Hathaway: thinks every discussion group explores from their own life but its a nice way discribing it
    Bertram Jacobus: and that we can sit here, silently or saying something ... :-)
    Nymf Hathaway: agrees
    Selene Northman nods
    Nymf Hathaway: although she never did understand what the 'playing' is all about
    Bertram Jacobus: yes nymf - that both comes together i find : the pab ideas - which also may change and develop i think - and our experiences
    Selene Northman: so how are you perceiving yourself?
    Bertram Jacobus: to me it's a kind of view and behaviour : playing life, playing living. instead of taking all "too serious" - as i did before ...
    Bertram Jacobus: and it often reminds me also - to play more and so to say "better" :-)
    Selene Northman: playing is fun :)
    Bertram Jacobus: yes. and i'm so thankful, that so many and especially fun do this work of the group and all the projects which are linked with it - it's nearly like a universe of very nice possibilities with a very good athmosphere with more content i ever could attend - so - simply a big gift ...
    Bertram Jacobus: and i like to contribute a bit. as much as i can, feel very comfortable with the people here. and that's it. so far. lol :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: not fun - some i wanted to write above ! tz :o)
    Bertram Jacobus: sometimes the humane faultiness is really astonishing ! especially teh results of it
    Nymf Hathaway: Must say she appreciates the people at Pab as well
    Selene Northman: yes, I like the way we are discussing
    Selene Northman: :)
    Bertram Jacobus: it's already that kind of society which may be even needed for our future with all it's tasks ...
    Nymf Hathaway: Its all very relaxing
    Bertram Jacobus: i will for example attend the next retreat now in stuttgart ... also with that there is so much help ...
    Selene Northman: so you'll be going to Stuttgart .. great :)
    Bertram Jacobus: yes. i look forward to it. it's not all easy for me to do that - money and time ... but i think, it's worth doing it - what else would be better and really to be done, possible to me ? (some of my thoughts about it) ... ;-)
    Selene Northman: I guess you will face a great experience in your life
    Bertram Jacobus: i had it already once : was in malta also at the retreat in january and yes : it was a great meeting ! ... :-)
    Selene Northman: ok folks, I have to leave now, please take care :-) bye bye
    Nymf Hathaway: Enjoy your day Selene
    Bertram Jacobus: have a great time selene ! +wave* ... :-)
    Nymf Hathaway: will be leaving as well, rl calls
    Bertram Jacobus: ok nymf - hope to see you again (?) :-)
    Nymf Hathaway: Have a beautiful day Bertram, was nice seeing you again... yes probbly returns more often
    Nymf Hathaway: probably
    Bertram Jacobus: ty - all my best wishes to you !
    Nymf Hathaway: Bye bye
    Bertram Jacobus: byeee
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