2010.09.24 07:00 - Dynamic Models of Reality

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Eliza Madrigal. The comments are by Eliza Madrigal, who was joined for this session by Bleu, Zen, Eden, Alfred, and Susan. As this session follows the early morning Time Session, we started from within a boundary .

    We share with Eden a piece of the ups/downs experience of having a wallet stolen and then found with 'some things' in tact but others forever gone.. the traumatic feeling of that. :( Then Susan starts off our conversation, by answering my request for elaboration on an idea she'd introduced in the earlier session:

    Susan Aloix: well there are times when i feel the loss of separation...and i am one with the sunset eliza.......or one with another
    Eliza Madrigal: so there in that 'place' Susan.... say more? 

    In Part II of the session, we consider philosophy, ordinary mind, psychology, satori, and groundlessly 'trying on' one another's models of reality...

    Vector Marksman: I must leave_ linear time calls:) I hope to come back.
    Darren Islar: need to go, sorry to say :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye to those who must go...
    Hana Furlough: i should get going too
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :0 Bye Victor, thanks
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)***
    Darren Islar: yes the clocks trikes :)
    Hana Furlough: bye everyone and happy day
    Eliza Madrigal: Glad you came Vector
    Bleu Oleander: bye to those going :)
    Eliza Madrigal: See you again
    Fefonz Quan: have a good time, all leavers :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Hana
    Bleu Oleander: have a good "time"
    Zen Arado: bye to those leaving
    Eliza Madrigal: :))
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Bye Hana :)

    Eliza Madrigal: the boundary....
    SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles
    Eliza Madrigal: the edge of time
    Alfred Kelberry: ok, it's going back to "normal" now :)
    Fefonz Quan: and a wonderful weekend to all of you. good bye
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Fef :) Namaste
    Fefonz Quan: (waves)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hehe
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye :) Fef
    Alfred Kelberry: fefy :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: I have to go too, Ive missed you all and hope to see ya soon

    Susan Aloix: well in that place eliza.........the fluidity of movement between self and other bursts into its own *oneness*......as though both inhabit the other....onesness......not experienced all the time...but we certainly have those moments

    Eliza Madrigal: So this boundary... third place...it seems like potential
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Sharon :)
    Eliza Madrigal: miss you too
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :) b4n
    Zen Arado: bye Sharon
    Eliza Madrigal: Indeed, Susan!
    Susan Aloix: yes brilliant word *potential* eliza.....

    Eden Haiku: Someone just called. Found my wallet. With no money but cards, Will get it back at 5 o'clock. At least I won't have to get a new driver's licence and health insurance card.

    Eliza Madrigal: So this is actually interesting in the context of Eden's experience too...
    Eden Haiku: I cancelled all other cards already.
    Bleu Oleander: great Eden
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh! Glad for that Eden!
    Zen Arado: that's some relief Eden
    Alfred Kelberry: oh, eden... you lost it?
    Susan Aloix: good to hear eden
    Eden Haiku: Some, yes :)

    Eliza Madrigal: this idea of invasion of space... blind time
    Eden Haiku: Was stolen Alfred. Horrible feeling...
    Eliza Madrigal: hidden potential
    Alfred Kelberry: eden, sorry about that...
    Eden Haiku: My purse was on the ground. And I was distracted.
    Susan Aloix: (say more eliza please re. the context of edens experience?)
    Alfred Kelberry: where did it happen?

    Eliza Madrigal: Well, musing on the idea that Eden was distracted... but not that she 'shouldn't have been' or was doing anything 'wrong'....
    Eliza Madrigal: there was a blind spot
    Eliza Madrigal: someone crossed a boundary that was kind of taken for granted as being there...
    Eliza Madrigal: and that is unnerving
    Eliza Madrigal: edgy
    Bleu Oleander: one's blind spot is another's opportunity
    Eliza Madrigal: shakes us up

    Zen Arado: wonders where his blind spots are
    Eliza Madrigal: saws off our branches... causes us to question
    Zen Arado: should ask others maybe
    Bleu Oleander: points out how small our windows of attention really are

    Eliza Madrigal: so in a positive sense, we think there are boundaries between us and hm... a sunset :)

    Eden Haiku: Yes, and it seems there is an epidemic of pickpocket in that area this summer...
    Zen Arado: true Bleu
    Bleu Oleander: "true Bleu" .... I like that :)
    Zen Arado: :)

    Eliza Madrigal: I shared a little sieve story the other night... that a friend gave me....
    Eliza Madrigal: thought about it again when we were talking about the ocean...
    Alfred Kelberry: eden, just out on the street?
    Zen Arado: listens for Eliza's story
    Eliza Madrigal: Short... don't worry:

    the teacher asks his students how to hold the ocean in a sieve...
    after much back and forth among them,
    he picks it up and tosses it into the ocean.
    Eliza Madrigal: :)

    Susan Aloix: well..yeah its certainly the negative aspect of it eliza...i was talking more about the place of being seen deeply by nature or another in a positive light......where we are able to fully embody anothers intentions ...and they ours.........these moments when positve are places where we have transcendent experiences of *oneness*
    Bleu Oleander: :)

    Eden Haiku: No in a coffee shop Alfred. Sorry, so many things to organize now, I,m not really here. Have to call back the police station. Sorry for focusing only on that. Will see you later guys :) Bye for now.
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye for now Eden :)
    Susan Aloix: bye eden
    Bleu Oleander: bye Eden ... take care
    Zen Arado: is pondering Eliza's story
    Zen Arado: with ponderous mind ...
    Eliza Madrigal: I appreciate that deeply Susan, re oneness...
    Zen Arado: bye Eden

    Eliza Madrigal: When I asked my friend what the story meant to him, he said something to the effect that his 'stuff' was spread around in that kind of expansiveness....
    Eliza Madrigal: couldn't hold on to it
    Susan Aloix: a place where there are no boundaries......
    Eliza Madrigal: world without maps
    Zen Arado: yes - like ungraspable reality
    Zen Arado: flowing and changing
    Eliza Madrigal: surging :)
    Zen Arado: that too
    Eliza Madrigal: was thinking of Eden's gorgeous poem....
    Zen Arado: me too

    Susan Aloix: love to hear her poem
    Eliza Madrigal: I'm glad she put that in her time report... was tempted to ask her to share it verbally here
    Singh Albatros: yes
    Eliza Madrigal: Let me give you the link Susan...
    Susan Aloix: thanks eliza
    Susan Aloix: imma going to have to go after that
    Eliza Madrigal: 2010/09/14: Eden Haiku

    Eliza Madrigal: Okay Susan. Enjoyed your contributions today, thank you
    Susan Aloix: ohh really wonderful poem


    Eliza Madrigal: It isn't easy to talk about 'oneness' and interconnection... without flatlining and losing the sense of dynamic energy... so thank you
    Singh Albatros: ty you all for a elevating and thoughful encounter
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Singh, glad you came. Would you like to conintue coming to the time sessions? perhaps be on the email list?
    Zen Arado: bye Singh
    Bleu Oleander: ty Singh ... bfn :)
    Eliza Madrigal: if so, just send me your email via IM
    Singh Albatros: perhaps the email list first
    Eliza Madrigal: or 'pema pera'... yes that would be just fine, then you'd get a reminder
    Eliza Madrigal: ty :)
    Susan Aloix: My pleasure eliza......always fun to throw around thoughts in here....appreciated your questions and ideas....and everyones
    Zen Arado: we appreciate yours too Singh
    Singh Albatros: ty
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Singh Albatros: ty all bb
    Zen Arado: and Susan
    Susan Aloix: bye bye all :)
    Zen Arado: bye Susan
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye for now Susan, See you again soon
    Bleu Oleander: bye Susan, Singh :)
    Susan Aloix: bye zen,...ty..see you soon eliza :)...bye Bleu

    Eliza Madrigal: I'm not married to the topic but of course still interested. :) What else is on others' minds? hehe
    Zen Arado: it's good not to cling to a topic :)
    Zen Arado: I prefer the type of freewheeling discussions we have here
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    Eliza Madrigal pictures wagon wheels flying all over the place
    Zen Arado: I find philosophical discussion tedious now

    Eliza Madrigal: I'm usually of the same mind, Zen... but there is something sort of shifting...
    Eliza Madrigal: that I'm enjoying the 'tension' of things more in some way... or the 'not getting caught' in it, of it....
    Bleu Oleander: hmmmm .... say more Eliza?
    Eliza Madrigal: It is fun as long as the point isn't lost...
    Bleu Oleander: the point .... that is the point

    Zen Arado: I get the feeling that philosophical debate is taking me further away from reality into abstruse and dubiuos conceptualizations....
    Eliza Madrigal: maybe the way Pema in his report described getting down to *presence*... so whatever happens is happening... even conflict or distractions...
    Eliza Madrigal: but presence seems the point... abiding in open presence....
    Zen Arado: yes
    Zen Arado: instead of trying to freeze aand dissect little bits of it....

    Eliza Madrigal: Yesterday in WoK, it was more of a philosophical discussion, or felt that way from 'within it' but if you read the whole thing... SUCH interesting ideas on the whole

    Eliza Madrigal: If you let the bits, the stuff, spread out into the space...
    Eliza Madrigal: :)

    Zen Arado: you always manage to be so positive Eliza ...
    Zen Arado: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Glad it looks that way! haha
    Eliza Madrigal: *everything* has to be practice though....
    Eliza Madrigal: I just don't want to compartmentalize into 'only' talking about spiritual things but rather....
    Eliza Madrigal: bring everything into the fire so to speak
    Zen Arado: it's just different approaches to me
    Eliza Madrigal: yes
    Zen Arado: and some seem more fruitful than others

    Zen Arado: and time is short
    Zen Arado: or is it?
    Eliza Madrigal: :)))
    Eliza Madrigal: !!
    Zen Arado: :)

    Zen Arado: I think I wasted too much of my life with philosophy already
    Zen Arado: been there ..done that...
    Zen Arado: don't want to be drawn into it again
    Eliza Madrigal: If I felt a discussion was 'just' ego-massaging philosophy, then I'd disconnect pretty easily I think....
    Eliza Madrigal: ie "look how much I know ABOUT such n such"
    Zen Arado: there seems to be ego involved usually
    Zen Arado: exactly
    Eliza Madrigal: maybe its a question of ratios...
    Zen Arado: and I don't feel inclined to have to read up about that stuff again

    Bleu Oleander: traditional philosophy vs lived personal philosophies ...
    Eliza Madrigal: YES!
    Zen Arado: yes Bleu
    Eliza Madrigal: >point<


    Eliza Madrigal: What makes PaB different, is that... it is inclusive of any kind of discussion... even philosophical and 'what so n so said' but doesn't stop there
    Bleu Oleander: that said, it is sometimes helpful to learn what others before you have thought

    Zen Arado: is wondering about 'spiritual compartmentaization' and if he is falling into a trap with it
    Eliza Madrigal: well, sometimes those discussions do get lost at a certain level though....
    Eliza Madrigal: and I think you are protective about that Zen
    Eliza Madrigal: which seems a really wonderful thing :)
    Zen Arado: or I get lost you mean Eliza :)

    Bleu Oleander: the question for me is does my personal philosophy agree with observations about reality? and does it help me to live my life in a better way

    Eliza Madrigal: sometimes though, we stop listening to so n so, and replace them for a so n so who is more 'spiritual' seeming

    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, like your excellent question earlier Bleu
    Eliza Madrigal: the model
    Zen Arado: a more pragmatic approach Bleu
    Eliza Madrigal: (and no Zen I don't mean you I definitely mean we)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Zen Arado: and maybe I should be more practical too
    Bleu Oleander: there is no theory-independent concept of reality?
    Zen Arado: I think reality will always be theory independent
    Eliza Madrigal: timelessly,
    Eliza Madrigal: theories are given in time

    Zen Arado: but that is a theory too I guess
    Zen Arado: why do we theorise so much?
    Zen Arado: must be our humanness

    Bleu Oleander: so each model of reality, if it agrees with observation, is a good one?
    Zen Arado: but still only a model

    Eliza Madrigal: Pema gave me a funny analogy the other day, of 'ordinary mind loops of ideas'... as though there is Fox news always playing propaganda in the background... and we don't even hear it....
    Bleu Oleander: we theorize in order to be in the world and with each other
    Bleu Oleander: always only a model?
    Zen Arado: but more than we actually need to maybe....
    Eliza Madrigal: but when we know it is propaganda, there is room to change the channel to question to make comparisons.... to give space to other possibilities
    Bleu Oleander: or maybe not
    Zen Arado: because I think reality is ungraspable Bleu
    Eliza Madrigal: none of them have to be 'right'
    Alfred Kelberry: what? fox news?
    Bleu Oleander: my point Zen exactly
    Zen Arado: trouble is we believe and freeze our models
    Eliza Madrigal: or can be right, yes
    Bleu Oleander: just needs to be right for me .... or for you ..... or for us ....
    Zen Arado: or for now...
    Bleu Oleander: :)

    Eliza Madrigal: Well, it is the ethics discussion also here.... ie skillful means. We can 'rehearse' what 'seems' right
    Eliza Madrigal: in a given situation
    Eliza Madrigal: but that exact situation is not what will come up
    Zen Arado: exactly
    Zen Arado: I mean....
    Bleu Oleander: yes

    Alfred Kelberry: eliza, can you explain what is "ordinary mind loops of ideas"?
    Bleu Oleander: models need to be fluid
    Bleu Oleander: dynamic
    Eliza Madrigal: what we take for our own thoughts, Alfred....
    Eliza Madrigal: not realizing we've picked stuff up
    Zen Arado: yes
    Eliza Madrigal: arguments we are having in our head without hearing it...
    Zen Arado: but the nature of them is not that ?
    Alfred Kelberry: like a tune that you heard on a radio?
    Eliza Madrigal: yup!!
    Zen Arado: any concept freezes things?

    Bleu Oleander: don't like the phrase "ordinary mind" .... feels all minds are extraordinary!
    Eliza Madrigal: Smiles @ Bleu!!
    Alfred Kelberry: pema could just said that instead of cryptic looping minds :)
    Eliza Madrigal: hah Alfred. Well, it was an analogy which really helped me

    Alfred Kelberry: but what are our thoughts? how can you distinguish?

    Zen Arado: 'ordinary mind' in Zen can mean an enlightened mind
    Eliza Madrigal: ordinary mind is used in two ways I've heard in buddhist teachings... one like 'don't seek more than your perfectly fine ordinary mind'
    Eliza Madrigal: naked mind
    Zen Arado: to show that that too is 'ordinary'
    Eliza Madrigal: yes :)
    Alfred Kelberry: you can label any thought being "a tune on a radio"

    Bleu Oleander: don't like the distriction of enlightened/non-enlightened minds
    Zen Arado: me neither
    Bleu Oleander: we are all enlightened is different ways
    Zen Arado: who knows what enlightenment is?
    Bleu Oleander: celebrate each others contributions

    Eliza Madrigal: And another way, to discern between insightful thinking and a reasoning out of things... (in time)
    Alfred Kelberry: bleu, i think we're "capable" of becoming enlightened
    Alfred Kelberry: but seldom do
    Bleu Oleander: I think we all are already Alf
    Zen Arado: we are enlightened already


    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Alfred Kelberry: then why meditate to reach what we already have?
    Bleu Oleander: exactly Alf
    Zen Arado: ha - that is a very famous question Dogen asked Alf
    Alfred Kelberry: hmm...
    Eliza Madrigal: question I ask every day, in meditation :)

    Zen Arado: we meditate because we are enlightened
    Zen Arado: and meditatiing is enlightenment
    Bleu Oleander: meditation is a tool
    Alfred Kelberry: what buddhist school says we're already enlightened?
    Bleu Oleander: one of many tools
    Zen Arado: Zen
    Zen Arado: and others I think
    Alfred Kelberry: zen? how about zazen and satori?
    Zen Arado: it's our true nature
    Zen Arado: we just cover it up with thinking
    Bleu Oleander: thinking is enlightenment

    Eliza Madrigal: yes... in a sense, when we say "Namaste" we are saying "I honor the Buddha in you"
    Zen Arado: zazen is just another name for meditation
    Zen Arado: satori is seeing our true nature

    Eliza Madrigal: Satori seems a kind of space looking at space....
    Alfred Kelberry: zen, i know that
    Zen Arado: usually only glimpses
    Eliza Madrigal: I was in a shoe store the first time I snapshotted this kind of glimpse...
    Zen Arado: as if it is obscured
    Alfred Kelberry: i think it's a matter of perspective
    Eliza Madrigal: I was standing there and thought "Hey! the default looping thing isn't happening... Look! Quiet!" then, it was kind of undone....
    Zen Arado: I only trying to explain what my conceptions of this are
    Eliza Madrigal: but then I knew that... tasted that
    Zen Arado: it isn't clear to me
    Alfred Kelberry: since we reach enlightment *within* us, therefore we possess this quality
    Zen Arado: as Eliza says = you have to taste it
    Zen Arado: like trying to explain what strawberry ice cream tastes like
    Eliza Madrigal: it wasn't something I was able to conjur... but flipped everything inside out.... to emptying rather than filling, in a way

    Eliza Madrigal nods @ Alfred
    Bleu Oleander: prefers chocolate icecream :)
    Eliza Madrigal: but 'out there' isn't excluded
    Eliza Madrigal: nor philosophy :)

    Alfred Kelberry: ok, i see it now
    Zen Arado: it's all part of it
    Alfred Kelberry: it's often helpful to step back and see a different perspective :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :) yes
    Bleu Oleander: I find that is always helpful Alf
    Eliza Madrigal: try things on
    Eliza Madrigal: different brains even
    Zen Arado: I think we just practice and wait and see
    Eliza Madrigal giggles
    Zen Arado: that's my attitude anyway

    Eliza Madrigal: if we aren't afraid of losing our 'selves', we can do that...
    Eliza Madrigal: really try other views on
    Bleu Oleander: empathy
    Eliza Madrigal: yes :)
    Eliza Madrigal: imagination
    Zen Arado: no two people see things in the same way anyway
    Bleu Oleander: one of the great things that make us human
    Eliza Madrigal: sometimes we share a glimpse together...
    Zen Arado: cut off the branch we are sitting on
    Zen Arado: ouch!
    Eliza Madrigal: think that is what Susan was describing
    Eliza Madrigal: hahah Zen
    Eliza Madrigal: Ruthless Empathy!
    Alfred Kelberry: yet so few people do that, which gives a lot of work for shrinks :)
    Zen Arado: yep
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Alfred
    Eliza Madrigal: psychology isn't excluded either
    Eliza Madrigal: heheh
    Alfred Kelberry: they basically say, go out and talk - be open :)
    Bleu Oleander: ha!

    Zen Arado: people seem to prefer to run around in mind circles
    Eliza Madrigal: that's where the pauses come in :)
    Alfred Kelberry: recursion :)

    Zen Arado: we don't need shrinks - we just come here:)
    Bleu Oleander: or anywhere people are having conversation
    Eliza Madrigal: if it is a conversation...
    Bleu Oleander: exactly

    Alfred Kelberry: zen, i think everyone does in a way
    Zen Arado: DIY shrinks
    Eliza Madrigal: I went to a wonderful therapist for a year... Zen meditation guy as it turns out but didn't 'tell' me that ...
    Eliza Madrigal: it was traditional therapy but basically, he made space for me... a sacred open place
    Eliza Madrigal: that's all :)
    Bleu Oleander: :)
    Zen Arado: wonderful Eliza
    Zen Arado: wasn't my experience
    Eliza Madrigal: it was something I couldn't give myself at the time
    Zen Arado: I went to a therapist for 2 sessions
    Zen Arado: that was enough
    Zen Arado: waste of time

    Eliza Madrigal: what he couldn't give me... and this illustrates the 'difference' between contemplation and philsophy (for me)... was Groundlessness


    Bleu Oleander: when the student is ready .....
    Zen Arado: the teacher will come....
    Bleu Oleander: :)
    Eliza Madrigal smiles

    Zen Arado: you are my teachers
    Zen Arado: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Peer Review!
    Zen Arado: God help me :)
    Eliza Madrigal: hahahahah
    Bleu Oleander: ha!
    Zen Arado: sorry
    Zen Arado: didn't want to massage your egos :)
    Bleu Oleander: hehe
    Eliza Madrigal giggles
    Zen Arado: I better go
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes, me too
    Bleu Oleander: thanks Zen and Eliza and Alf
    Eliza Madrigal: Thank you guys. Interesting session :)
    Zen Arado: thanks for interesting discussion
    Bleu Oleander: bye all for now
    Zen Arado: bye
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye for now. Appreciate you Much _/!\_
    Alfred Kelberry: a good talk as always :)
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, glad you've been coming Alfred :))
    Alfred Kelberry: bye leggy blonde :)
    Eliza Madrigal: hahah
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye for now ;-)

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