2010.09.28 01:00 - Love or Gödel

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Wester Kiranov. The comments are by Wester Kiranov.


    Wester Kiranov: hi bert
    Bertram Jacobus: hey wester - so alone ? not boring ? ;-)
    Wester Kiranov: just quietly waking up :)
    Bertram Jacobus: sounds very well ... :-)
    Wester Kiranov: and someone has to be here in case there are newbies :P
    Bertram Jacobus: yes : I heard about that (!) ;-)
    Bertram Jacobus: and very nice that you cover this service ! :-)
    Wester Kiranov: have a seat
    Bertram Jacobus: okay ... but i´m not sure, whether i´ll stay ... hm ... :-)
    Wester Kiranov: it's possible to stand up from these seats as well. no magic glue anywhere ;)
    Bertram Jacobus: whaow ! :o)
    Bertram Jacobus: astonishing ! :o)
    Bertram Jacobus: how are you these days wester ?
    Wester Kiranov: I'm fine, not much to tell really.
    Wester Kiranov: How are you?
    Bertram Jacobus: telephone ...
    --BELL--
    Bertram Jacobus: ah - my life is very intense going up and down - or may be better to say : my feelings ... hm - i´m not sure
    Wester Kiranov: hi selene
    Bertram Jacobus: heyy selene ! good morning so here too :-)
    Wester Kiranov: have you been here before?
    Selene Northman: hi Wester and Bertram :)
    Selene Northman: nice to see you ;)
    Bertram Jacobus: i have also a hat now, bit too big i find ... ;-)
    Wester Kiranov: :)
    Selene Northman: it always terrible to adjust those hats ;)
    Bertram Jacobus: looks like - whereas i was quite content with this one
    Selene Northman: but perhaps I have interrupted a nice conversation going on?
    Bertram Jacobus: not at all selene
    Selene Northman: nice to hear :)
    Bertram Jacobus: we only asked "how are you" so far and talked about how it is to be here with only very few people , a bit ...
    Selene Northman: sometimes the communictation is more intense with less people. It depends on the "vibes" :)
    Wester Kiranov: it's definitely possible to have too many people for a good conversation
    Selene Northman nods
    Bertram Jacobus: yes ! it´s nice that you use this word, because - already since a loooong time i used to be in a cahtroom which has the name "buddha vibes" (but it´s only german, sometimes may be sadly sometimes not) ...
    Selene Northman: Wester as far as I can tell from your profile you are interested in philosophy. May I ask you about your favourite philosophers?
    Bertram Jacobus: but it depends also on the people and the atmosphere : when many listen and have patience - it may work, at least much better
    Wester Kiranov: Of course you may ask about philosophers :)
    Selene Northman: excellent :)
    Bertram Jacobus: perhaps i may say that i find philosophy disappointing. because i experienced with it that it doesn´t aim to the realisation of something transcendent or absolute or how ever one can try to call "it" ...
    Wester Kiranov: Ah Bertrand just said what I was about to say - or a part of it
    Bertram Jacobus: sry wester - what are the other parts ?
    Wester Kiranov: I have also stopped wondering whether books I read are philosophical
    Selene Northman: perhaps -I may say that I find it quite fascinating, because I know it is NOT dealing with the last truths.
    Wester Kiranov: things like "neurophilosophy" by people like damasio
    --BELL--
    Bertram Jacobus googled a bit and found a text about damasio. result : "hm" :o)
    Wester Kiranov: Philosophy is the one place where I think there should be big pictures, big visions - and too often it is just nitpicking
    Bertram Jacobus: may be nice on one hand, but "not enough" on the other to me ...
    Selene Northman: well perhaps it does depend on the people you are philosophying with, or are you blaming the authors for it?
    Wester Kiranov: Ah - it's too early to be talking about this stuff...;)
    Selene Northman chuckles
    Selene Northman: how late is it at your time zone?
    Wester Kiranov: I do find philosophy in general disappointing
    Bertram Jacobus: ah ! but you still have something of it in your profile wesetr ? from the past ? :-)
    Wester Kiranov: I admit - it's 10:51, maybe I should be more awake :)
    Selene Northman: its the same time over here :)
    Wester Kiranov: I am interested in some parts of philosophy, especially philosophy of the sciences. But I just don't really know what to do about it.
    Selene Northman: perhaps you are not disappointed by philosophy itself but by its limits.
    Bertram Jacobus: i think, that as entertainement it can be useful ;-)
    Wester Kiranov: It's now the limits of philosophy I'm disappointed with. I'm not that naive :)
    Bertram Jacobus: and may be even as help on a certain part of human developement, for some at least
    Selene Northman: Is there a chance that you are expecting too much of it?
    Selene Northman: :)
    Bertram Jacobus: i mean part of the path
    Wester Kiranov: I have actually moved Being and Time onto my to-be-read-very-soon- shelf
    Bertram Jacobus: i think, we should aim higher and even in fact we do
    Selene Northman: Heidegger is worth reading, I appreciate especially the part when he mentions Aletheia
    Bertram Jacobus: can you tell me a bit about that selene ?
    Wester Kiranov: I tried to read it a while ago, with some friends, but we didn't get far. But I do think it might be one of those books you have to be ready for
    Selene Northman: well I love the way he wants to take European philosophy back to its Greek origin
    Bertram Jacobus: oh ah i see ... ;-)
    Selene Northman: for instance when he talks of aletheia= truth he doesn´t mean to stream the naked light of enlightenment onto it but be careful and cautious with revealing it
    Wester Kiranov: At my university they didn't really like the Continental philosophers, so basically they told you nothing about them :(
    --BELL--
    Selene Northman: well, over here a lot of people are biased with school of language philosophers .... I guess its all about overcoming prejudices
    Selene Northman smiles
    Bertram Jacobus: telephone ...
    Bertram Jacobus: brb
    Selene Northman: hb Bertram :9
    Selene Northman: :)
    Selene Northman: I can see you typing, Wester but it doesn´t get displayed here
    Wester Kiranov: no, I keep on erasing what I want to say . I just can't seem to find the right words
    Selene Northman: oh.. just tell it how you feel about it
    Wester Kiranov: I'm trying ... ;)
    Selene Northman: ;)
    Selene Northman: hello Ed :)
    XXX: hello
    Wester Kiranov: Just talking about how I feel about philosophers feels like I have to write an essay. And everything I say is not exactly what I want to say.
    Wester Kiranov: Hi XXX.
    Wester Kiranov: Have you been here before?
    Selene Northman: Wel sometimes it will take some more words to describe...
    XXX: yes, i like to listen to conversations here, but you could remove my name from the log, Wester?
    Wester Kiranov: I'll remove your name XXX
    XXX: thanks, Wester
    --BELL--
    Bertram Jacobus: back from phone and hello XXX :-)
    Selene Northman: wb Bertram :)
    XXX: hello Bertram
    Wester Kiranov: I do realize it's necessay to work with small details of reality, in any kind of science ( and other communications).
    Wester Kiranov: And sometimes you get brilliant things from seeming insignificant details, like the Gödel theorem from Russell's paradox
    Wester Kiranov: But too many philosophers get completely entrenched in a really small part of reality, and they don't wonder about the place it should take in the big picture any more
    Bertram Jacobus: i hope i don´t disturb when i throw in a sentence which makes it quite clear to me - a meditation teacher once said the two simple words "highest first" - and that´s what describes all that to me, explains ...
    Bertram Jacobus: so it even was not a complete sentence ;-)
    Selene Northman: an exclamation ? ;)
    Wester Kiranov: Could you say more bert?
    Bertram Jacobus: and i agree totally to your words and feel very cozy with your explanations wester here !
    Bertram Jacobus: it´s the point, that, for example and in my understanding, there are, according to your sights wester, there are many very interesting details and also even possibilities of great insights from them - but : when i see a chance, for example by meditating - or in studying and practising, researching teachings like the buddhistic ones or others, taoism, christian, whatever - then to me that seems to be "higher" in a way - hope not to hurt somebody with it (?)
    Bertram Jacobus: it´s my experience which lets me talk like this and think and feel
    Wester Kiranov: But then you have the problem to tell what is higher
    Selene Northman: no I don´t feel hurt, because you are talking of the last truths and they are higher
    Bertram Jacobus: ok : i think, being or becoming totally free for example is higher then only being a bit free ;-)
    Wester Kiranov: Sure, but no-one is going to disagree on that
    Selene Northman: leaving duality behind is certainly a different goal
    Wester Kiranov: and that is a goal that philosphers and scientists (most of them) can't even see
    Wester Kiranov: because it cannot fit their frames
    Selene Northman: well they can, but they would say that these are the limits
    Selene Northman: if they are honest
    Bertram Jacobus: so for example love, not conditioned and all including or also the dropping of greed are more interesting to become realized then the understanding of Gödels theorem from Russell's paradox - although i find, that sounds terribly interesting too ! :-)
    Wester Kiranov: but love and truth are either completely the same or completely incomparable
    Bertram Jacobus: but when they say that would be limits - one never can know finally selene - and so such a statement must be wrong, even every statement finally (!)
    Wester Kiranov: I am so sorry but I have to go wake up somebody - I might be back in 10 mins but I might not
    Selene Northman: well the European tradition admitted it, that there are limits...
    Wester Kiranov: brb (possibly)
    Bertram Jacobus: and we can play with all those relative things and aspects - even when an aiming or even realisation of the transcendent is so to say in the background or the basis
    --BELL--
    Bertram Jacobus: but other way round i would not appreciate : philosophy without considering the so to call (for example) "absolute" - and to me also : researching how to realize that
    Bertram Jacobus: oops - sry
    Bertram Jacobus: i can´t agree in such a statement of limits - so far i understood you now
    Selene Northman: philosophy is dealing with the next to last things, while spirituality or religion is dealing with the very last things
    Bertram Jacobus: for example, mind, conciousness, microcosmos, macrocosmos - all these "things" or how to call them are really not researched in whole and so also no limits found, right ?
    Selene Northman: I just explained it
    Bertram Jacobus: i find, modern spirituality and religion should use the means of the current times - and that are science and so working with the next and going with it -
    Selene Northman: for the aboslute truth ,philosophy isn´t the final answer
    Bertram Jacobus: (sry - was a bad sentence - uncomplete)
    Bertram Jacobus: but when you say, philosophy should go to the "last things" - isn´t that the final, aren´t that the answers ?
    Selene Northman: no I said it can´t go
    Selene Northman: to the last things
    Selene Northman: it always deals with the next to last things
    Bertram Jacobus: so I understood you wrongly with this ? : [02:33] Selene Northman: philosophy is dealing with the next to last things
    Bertram Jacobus: what does mean "last things" here plz ?
    Selene Northman: it always is focussing around the central questions. What can we know. What can we do? What is the human being? What is the world?
    Selene Northman: last things : like God, Religion, Eternity
    Selene Northman: Death
    Bertram Jacobus: ah - but they even deal with ideas like the transcendental, the absolute, don´t they?
    Selene Northman: yes... there is transcendental philosophy... but the word transcendental has a specific meaning- don´t know if we are talking about the same thing
    Bertram Jacobus: i like to say something like a last sentence for now - getting a bit tired, exhausted, like to have a pause : i think, the difference between theory and practise may make here the or at least a substantial difference
    Selene Northman: yes a break would be refreshing :)
    Bertram Jacobus: ty ! :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: and a nice day to all ! :-)
    Selene Northman: please take care and have a fine day :)
    Bertram Jacobus: may all beings be happy plz ! :-)
    --BELL--
    Wester Kiranov: I'm leaving too. cu & bye

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