2010.10.01 07:00 - The Same Thing Differently

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Eliza Madrigal. The comments are by Eliza Madrigal, who was joined by a nice group to continue a great conversation begun during the Time hour. :)


    Bertram Jacobus: hi riddle
    Alfred Kelberry: *curious about what pema said*
    Bertram Jacobus: what do you do on the time sessions ? are there already any results ?
    Riddle Sideways: which pema said?
    Eliza Madrigal: Bert, there is a 'books' section on the pab wiki where pema is writing chapters...
    Eliza Madrigal: each week we try to do homework suggested at the end
    Bleu Oleander: lively discussion .... fun to read the log Alf
    Eliza Madrigal: and come to compare notes :)
    Bertram Jacobus: oh sry tel
    Bruce Mowbray: We read a new chapter in Pema's book every two weeks, and we write weekly reports about our experiences with the homework that Pema assigns.
    Bertram Jacobus: must log off shortly
    Bruce Mowbray: Then we come together on Friday mornings to discuss what we've discovered.
    Eliza Madrigal: he wasn't kidding, that was fast :)

    Bleu Oleander: http://wiki.playasbeing.org/PaB_Books/Magic_of_Time

    Alfred Kelberry: bleu, oh yes. forgot the logs.
    Bruce Mowbray: thanks, Bleu.
    Eliza Madrigal: yesterday I was re reading the dialogs between pema and stim
    Fefonz Quan: Bye all, have a good weekend!
    Bleu Oleander: bye Fef
    Alfred Kelberry: fefy :)
    Eliza Madrigal: in the 'unpublished' section...
    Bruce Mowbray: you too, Fef.
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Fef, nice to see you
    Bruce Mowbray: continue please, Eliza.

    Eliza Madrigal: and I was so struck by the way that they talk about wu wei in those dialogs....
    Riddle Sideways: are all the dialogues over there> thought there were more
    Eliza Madrigal: I think that Cal made sure to fix all the links yesterday
    Riddle Sideways: ok
    Eliza Madrigal: there may be some from the ways of knowing workshop on that deki, but these were just after the first august california retreat
    Alfred Kelberry: fancy outfit, bleu

    Eliza Madrigal: the thing is, I noticed that Pema's writing felt like this description of wu wei... getting more precise...
    Bleu Oleander: ty boxy
    Eliza Madrigal: each chapter sort of noticing something more subtle...
    Bruce Mowbray: I agree, Eliza. . .
    Eliza Madrigal: just throwing that out there as an observation and lead for those interested :)
    Alfred Kelberry: bleu, you like white color?
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Rianna :)
    Riddle Sideways: bye Riana

    Bleu Oleander: I see a strong similarity to the ideas in the book "time, space, and knowledge"
    Bruce Mowbray: and with each new chapter there is a new "shift" -- a new "opening" in awareness, for me anyway.
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, both
    Riddle Sideways notes that the sentence Blue is white on white is very awkward
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Oleander fits...
    Bleu Oleander: :)
    Riddle Sideways: the 3 levels of writings are very distinct and nice
    Eliza Madrigal: indeed
    Riddle Sideways: 1. a chapter of a long book

    Bruce Mowbray: sometimes that shift seems to evoke a sort of ecstasy. . . and I watch that . . . . when we shifted to "appreciating the presence" - especially.

    Riddle Sideways: 2. many people reports on their reading view of chapter
    Riddle Sideways: 3. choas of threads discussing in chat sesion
    Eliza Madrigal: :) oh, yes that's a helpful outline....
    Eliza Madrigal: a dynamism

    Alfred Kelberry: bruce, is sensation of those shifts similar to say when you finally find a solution for an equation? or grasp a complicated concept?
    Bruce Mowbray: thanks, Riddle -- that puts things in order. . . but "chaos of threads" in the discussion? I don't feel that chaos.
    Eliza Madrigal: for me there seems a shift in coming toward awareness as something to 'understand'...and coming from awareness....
    Bleu Oleander: confusion of terms perhaps
    Bruce Mowbray thinks about Al's question.
    Eliza Madrigal: well chaos in the sense of interaction which at eye level is difficult to track...
    Bleu Oleander: awareness can mean several things

    Riddle Sideways: funny how a "leap" is a strong word/action and "shift" is kinder easier

    Eliza Madrigal: I think your picture is a picture of awareness... in a sense...
    Eliza Madrigal: or I related to it that way :)
    Eliza Madrigal: @Bleu
    Bleu Oleander: yes
    Bruce Mowbray: we are engaged in a gentle process of discovery.

    Bleu Oleander: In 1951 Rauschenberg created his "White Paintings," in the tradition of monochromatic painting, whose purpose was to reduce painting to its most essential nature, and to subsequently lead to the possibility of pure experience.

    Bruce Mowbray: and exploration. . .
    Alfred Kelberry: as in gradual englightment? :)
    Eliza Madrigal: leap and shift both point to boundary
    Bruce Mowbray: very important not to push the river.
    Bleu Oleander: that was my nod to artists thinking about these concepts
    Eliza Madrigal nods.... yes the blank page/ cleanser...
    Eliza Madrigal: no precedents... certainly part of what we're considering

    Riddle Sideways: it complimented bruce's photo too
    Riddle Sideways: many kids drawing the same thing differently

    Eliza Madrigal: that word 'pure' is scary though... a real hot button. An artist can use it but not a contemplative... hah
    Bleu Oleander: exactly
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes!! re Bruce's photo
    Bruce Mowbray: Curious about that --- In my photo the children were wearing primary colors -- and in the all-white image. . . well, when all colors are combined, there is white!


    Bleu Oleander: no such thing as pure perception
    Bruce Mowbray:

    Bleu Oleander: only in light Bruce .... not in paint :)
    Bruce Mowbray:

    Riddle Sideways: ah, hot button words. You don't think we are using one in a sentence until the entire circle goes misunderstanding on us
    Eliza Madrigal wondering about diversified perceptions reflected from pure awareness.... which I thought was an interesting turn in the conversation this morning
    Eliza Madrigal: ! Riddle, nodding
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-) ---- Cool observation, Riddle.

    Bleu Oleander: one first has to accept "pure awareness" as a possibility
    Eliza Madrigal: hm, not sure....
    Eliza Madrigal: one has to accept the possibility...
    Bruce Mowbray: For me, awareness can be either for itself or for some "end"
    Eliza Madrigal: of the possibility
    Bleu Oleander: yes of course
    Bruce Mowbray: likewise with spirituality. . . (religion).
    Bruce Mowbray: I can be aware as an end in itself. . .
    Alfred Kelberry: bruce, so you took a picture of bleu? :)
    Bruce Mowbray: or I can use awareness as a means to an end.

    Bleu Oleander: I consider myself a "possibilian"

    Eliza Madrigal: yes... if inherent is pure as an ideal of some sort... seems a trap still
    Bruce Mowbray: Our explorations here seem to involve both "means" and "ends."
    Eliza Madrigal: yes
    Alfred Kelberry: can you explain the "end" part?
    Bleu Oleander: trying to remain open to new ideas
    Eliza Madrigal: bottom up and top down... and I like Riddle's framework of ways of viewing the exploration even... chaotic at one level...
    Bruce Mowbray: yes, Bleu -- always.

    Eliza Madrigal: really lingered a while with maxine's considerations of boundaries too....
    Bruce Mowbray: re: the "end" part. . . . We can choose to be aware and use that awareness for some other purpose ("end.")
    Bleu Oleander: for me I see science much more broadly, encompasing what we are doing here
    Bruce Mowbray: or we can choose to be aware for its own sake.
    Eliza Madrigal: open ends
    Riddle Sideways: and I like the new word (to me) "Possibilian"
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zen :)
    Bruce Mowbray: hello, Zen.
    Zen Arado: Hi all
    Riddle Sideways: hi zen
    Bleu Oleander: hi Zen
    Eliza Madrigal: Good to see you. We're discussing... hm awareness and possibilities
    Alfred Kelberry: bruce, some other? and what is the "primal" purpose?
    Bruce Mowbray: For me, the term "contemplative" implies awareness as an end in itself.
    Alfred Kelberry: oi, zen :)
    Zen Arado: likes'awareness for its own sake'
    Bruce Mowbray: re: "some other" ---- I can choose to be aware for the purpose of hearing whether the baby is awake upstairs....
    Zen Arado: more like zen attitude
    Bruce Mowbray: that would be awareness serving "some other" purpose.
    Bruce Mowbray: Or, I can choose awareness as an end in itself.
    Zen Arado: Hi Arch :)
    Eliza Madrigal: an interesting note @ bruce, is that Lucinda once remarked that in her color work, white represents, at least partly, ecstasy
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Arch
    Bleu Oleander: awareness = attention?
    Bruce Mowbray: Hello, Arch.
    Archmage Atlantis: Alfred, it is difficult to decide which cushion you are using *g*
    Zen Arado: can be open and infocussed too
    Eliza Madrigal: :) We need a tiny cushion... though Alfred is generally known for not sitting
    Eliza Madrigal: heheh
    Zen Arado: unfocussed *
    Alfred Kelberry: archy, none, really. it's not compatible with tiny avs :)
    Eliza Madrigal: sitting without sitting
    Zen Arado: open awareness
    Zen Arado: just noticing what comes up

    Alfred Kelberry: bruce, then what's the difference betwene "means" and "ends"?
    Bruce Mowbray: for me, "attention" is awareness that is consciously (deliberately) intended/chosen.
    Eliza Madrigal nods @ Zen
    Archmage Atlantis: Hi Bruce. Bleu, Zen and all that I missed
    Bleu Oleander: yes, Bruce
    Eliza Madrigal: yes I think of attention as active... 'tending to'
    Eliza Madrigal: awareness as allowing
    Zen Arado: awareness seems more a state of accepting than one of doing to me
    Bleu Oleander: awareness can be nonconsciou
    Eliza Madrigal: and equanimity as both
    Eliza Madrigal: the both, seems the leap

    (lingering in the leap ... )

    Bleu Oleander: two difference interpretations of meaning of word "awareness"
    Alfred Kelberry: zen, i like that
    Bruce Mowbray: ok @ Alfred: I can "use" someone to get something that I want. . . That would be using them as a "means"
    Zen Arado: attention is more like concentartion?
    Bruce Mowbray: or, I can engage with them as an "end" in themselves. Kant would say that the later is the ONLY way to be moral in our relations with others.
    Zen Arado: yes - shouldn't use others as means ,only ends in themselves
    Archmage Atlantis: Bruce, I just read something like that
    Alfred Kelberry: bruce, same way you "use" awareness to hear a baby in the "ends"
    Bleu Oleander: attention is spotlighting something in your conscious mind

    Eliza Madrigal: there is an idea that mind arises with thoughts...
    Archmage Atlantis: It said all transactions are....welll I have to find it
    Bruce Mowbray: yes, Bleu -- but it can be extremely subtle and gentle in the "spotlighting."
    Bleu Oleander: of course
    Eliza Madrigal: or minds... which arise with 'contexts' which we think of as 'outer'...
    Bruce Mowbray: please say more about mind arising with thoughts, Eliza.
    Eliza Madrigal: Maybe I can use a recent ted talk to show what I mean better....
    Eliza Madrigal: the talk was on choices
    Eliza Madrigal: and the way that we make choices with a kind of purposefulness....
    Bruce Mowbray: yes? can you lead us to that talk?
    Zen Arado: I was puzzled by that
    Eliza Madrigal: and think this is a right and something to grasp onto
    Eliza Madrigal: but not necessarily the best way
    Eliza Madrigal: and yes, I can give the link....


    Archmage Atlantis: The way you understand the link is more valuable to me than the link, Eliza
    Riddle Sideways: some month I will watch ALL the TED talks
    Eliza Madrigal: that coming 'from' a more total context to see/allow a choice that arises maybe something to consider... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDq9-QxvsNU
    Eliza Madrigal: :) @ Riddle
    Eliza Madrigal: Thank you Arch... that's what I was trying to show really...
    Eliza Madrigal: a way of looking... a cultural context
    Archmage Atlantis: I get so tired of ppl letting links speak for them

    Eliza Madrigal: but the video is a good way of 'making' one suspend their own thinking for a period of time
    Zen Arado: I am thinking along non dual, no-self lines lately and according to those teachings if there is no @I@ there is no one to make choices
    Zen Arado: no 'I'
    Eliza Madrigal: right
    Eliza Madrigal: but 'no' is a kind of duality
    Eliza Madrigal: too
    Zen Arado: and free will is just a concept
    Eliza Madrigal: no assumes a yes
    Eliza Madrigal: contrasted against
    Archmage Atlantis: We learn from the links....that is true.....but each of us has something to share
    Eliza Madrigal: (sorry am talking too much today)
    Bleu Oleander: yes, but lines were adaptive in evolution
    Archmage Atlantis: And I need a new word for share, as it has been overrused
    Eliza Madrigal: we are a flicker yet think we have all this determining power

    Bleu Oleander: lines are perhaps a necessary evil?
    Eliza Madrigal: or should
    Zen Arado: yes, there is a self but no, it is not 'real'
    Bleu Oleander: minute flicker
    Eliza Madrigal: :) yes and I agree that lines are important
    Archmage Atlantis: Why evil Bleu?
    Bleu Oleander: no self really, but a concept of self proved adaptive

    Zen Arado: can't seem to get anyone interested in no-self idea and to me it is what causes us so much suffering....

    Eliza Madrigal: just not as solid as maybe we tend to make them... even inner/outer, self/other
    Bleu Oleander: lines create boundaries some not always a good thing Arch
    Archmage Atlantis: I am interested in the no-self, but siddhartha only shared it with those closest
    Eliza Madrigal: am deeply interested @ Zen but think it has become a 'religious' notion... even the word 'self'... so there are new ways of looking at the same thing perhaps?
    Archmage Atlantis: I think he was wrong
    Bleu Oleander: having a concept of no-self wouldn't cure all the suffering in the world
    Eliza Madrigal: as Bruce would say, fresh metaphors :)
    Archmage Atlantis: To not share with all
    Zen Arado: you can study it in philosophy too as a topic called 'personal identity'
    Zen Arado: that's
    Zen Arado: how I came to Buddhism

    Eliza Madrigal: no self and wu wei are similar....
    Bleu Oleander: new concepts of no self
    Riddle Sideways: maybe.... "all-self"
    Zen Arado: ego self is a better description
    Bleu Oleander: self is a mental construct?
    Eliza Madrigal: and the idea of zeroing in on less 'doing' systematically....
    Zen Arado: yes I think so
    Riddle Sideways: zero-self
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Archmage Atlantis: At 25 I would hear those words differently
    Riddle Sideways: oops, meant all-self as in 'we are the world' not as egotism bastards
    Zen Arado: so our actions just happen - there is no 'doer'? how do you like that?
    Eliza Madrigal: :))
    Riddle Sideways: hi steve
    Bleu Oleander: we still need to take responsibility for our actions
    Zen Arado: Hi Steve
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Steve :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: well, nice to see you all
    Bleu Oleander: hi steve
    Zen Arado: you see there are implications lie that that are difficult
    Archmage Atlantis: Yes, being responsible for choices does not change
    Eliza Madrigal: We're having an interesting discussion : awareness, selflessness, wu wei, attention...
    stevenaia Michinaga: I appear as a cloud to myself, how do I appear to you?
    stevenaia Michinaga: ty Eliza
    Zen Arado: but who or what is making the choices?
    Bleu Oleander: I see you steve

    ('no self' is actually all about personal responsibility, but that's another day... haha...) 

    Eliza Madrigal: I think the precision of this kind of zero-ing in isn't quite appreciated.... meaning, look at the potency of atomic power...
    Riddle Sideways: I see you drinking tea
    Archmage Atlantis: Not at all, Steve
    Bleu Oleander: apparently our nonconscious minds are Zen
    Zen Arado: our conditioning?
    Bleu Oleander: yes
    Eliza Madrigal: so we think there is all this 'stuff' that we must do... but maybe doing skillfully is better...
    Eliza Madrigal: or more actually helpful
    Eliza Madrigal: as opposed to what we can think up to help
    Archmage Atlantis: There is no "must do"
    Zen Arado: and we will do it - we can't stop doing it either?
    Zen Arado: I used to worry about the passive implications of this

    Eliza Madrigal: I donno... there is a honey suckle tree across the street, thriving because it is in the back yard of someone's home where the gardeners can't get to it
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Bleu Oleander: :)
    Zen Arado: :)
    Zen Arado: so we thrive or wither according to conditions?
    Bruce Mowbray: a wu wei bush.
    Eliza Madrigal: no rule I guess
    Archmage Atlantis: Honeysuckle is a vine growing up a bramble or a tree
    Eliza Madrigal: heheh Bruce
    Archmage Atlantis: In my reality

    Bleu Oleander: apparently our conscious minds can hold opposing ideas at once and make judgements which is better, but judgements based on prior conditioning?
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, no, these are trees Arch... very much so

    Archmage Atlantis: That it is a tree in yours
    Archmage Atlantis: Is interesting

    Zen Arado: so no free will then?
    Eliza Madrigal nods @ Bleu... but then what of 'insight' that arises or seems to arise out of 'nowhere'
    Zen Arado: it's just an illusion?


    Archmage Atlantis: Yes, but we are also illusion
    Bleu Oleander: it can be seen to arise from the nonconscious mind
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, which may be friendlier to no boundaries?
    stevenaia Michinaga: is there any other place things arise from?
    Bleu Oleander: exactly
    Eliza Madrigal: void
    Archmage Atlantis: When I come to PaB. I look for a blue cushion
    Zen Arado: non -conscious mind = awareness, being or true self Bleu?
    Archmage Atlantis: Then, I adjust my av
    Bleu Oleander: self is whole package I think
    Archmage Atlantis: to sit with legs crossed
    Archmage Atlantis: I am aware I do this
    Zen Arado: but we make two packages out of it
    Bleu Oleander: just the awareness of our bodies takes up a lot of mind time
    Archmage Atlantis: So I try not to do it at times
    Bleu Oleander: two packages?
    Zen Arado: a true self and a separate egoic self
    Bleu Oleander: I don't separate
    Zen Arado: think most of us do

    Riddle Sideways: and the wonder of comparing 2 and seeing the 3rd alternative
    Bleu Oleander: I don't think so?
    Zen Arado: we create this false self at age 2 or three by giving ourselves a separate identity
    Archmage Atlantis: And when Blub is here, I say hello as Koya whispers to be to do that
    Eliza Madrigal: :) we think we've discovered so much....
    Bruce Mowbray: Blub nods at Arch and Koya.
    Bleu Oleander: I don't think it's a false self at 2 .... self is an evolving dynamic construction
    Riddle Sideways: ahhhh, zen that Alan Watts thing again
    Bleu Oleander: never complete

    Eliza Madrigal: No one seemed to like my idea of mostly silent session... was thnking it could coincide with silent day at the retreat if they have one... tell me the truth, "I" can take it... heheh

    Zen Arado: yes but that's where it starts
    Alfred Kelberry: eliza, i like the idea
    Bleu Oleander: silent session?
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Ty Alfred
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, was thinking we flip it...
    Eliza Madrigal: just for one session
    Eliza Madrigal: talk in the pauses
    Riddle Sideways: might be nice
    Zen Arado: but so difficult....:)
    Bleu Oleander: I personally don't get much from sitting silently at my computer .... somehow need the conversation to be drawn in
    Alfred Kelberry: it's like a meditation session
    Eliza Madrigal: maybe, but I would volunteer to greet late and newcomers
    Eliza Madrigal: I guess I'm looking for a way for us to have 'space' together....
    Archmage Atlantis: Princeton is a town.....I have been there on my way from Phillliy area to NY
    Riddle Sideways: hmmmm, bleu you have a good point
    Eliza Madrigal: in an extended, intentional way...
    Eliza Madrigal: to let the conversation spread out
    Eliza Madrigal: into
    Archmage Atlantis: It is also a University

    Bleu Oleander: I feel we have space together now

    Zen Arado: I agree Eliza...I keep thinking I get too caught up in concepts
    Riddle Sideways: like sending my av to do my mediation while I do work
    Eliza Madrigal: is there a compromise between the two?
    Zen Arado: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: I attend other sanghas in SL . . . . and a silent session here would feel like those sanghas, probably... but don't want to "program" that in advance.
    Eliza Madrigal: hah Riddle
    Bleu Oleander: funny Riddle
    Eliza Madrigal: maybe just take longer pauses one day?
    Eliza Madrigal: Okay, thanks for honest imput
    Eliza Madrigal: much appreciated :)

    Eliza Madrigal: Maybe *I* just need to make my 'self' pause longer :))

    Bleu Oleander: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: or, maybe just sit on your hands and cover up the chat box. . .
    Archmage Atlantis: I know of no other place that is daily
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, keep trying that :)
    Bleu Oleander: ha!
    Bruce Mowbray: a "choice" - - - But I WANT to hear what you say, Eliza.
    Eliza Madrigal: we have nightly sittings at zen retreat...
    Archmage Atlantis: And none that meet 4x a day
    Eliza Madrigal: but I only make tuesdays generally
    Bruce Mowbray: 6 p.m. sitting at Zen retreat (outside).
    Riddle Sideways: and I only (usually) come to tuesday 7am PaB
    Bruce Mowbray: 7 a.m. 20-minute sit at Prison Dharma site.
    Eliza Madrigal: TY Bruce :) Im just so interested in everything and everyone ... want to splash around in whatever's going on... am rarely afk
    Bruce Mowbray: frequent sittings at the Kannonji Retreat Center.
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, yes at Peacemakers
    Zen Arado: I thought it would be a good idea to be able to sit with others from pab
    Bleu Oleander: need to go .... thanks all for a great conversation :)
    Zen Arado: but not many come to The Shift
    Archmage Atlantis: A question for you all
    Zen Arado: bye Bleu
    Bruce Mowbray: Thank you, Bleu. Loved your white painting.
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Bleu :)
    Bleu Oleander: ty!

    Archmage Atlantis: How does one herd cats?
    Bruce Mowbray: Thanks, Riddle. Great input today.
    Alfred Kelberry: eliza, you're truly open to new experience and i think we all should take some of it :)
    Eliza Madrigal: thanks much Riddle :)
    Riddle Sideways: arch, very gently
    Riddle Sideways: and each in it's own way
    Eliza Madrigal: ((Alf))
    Riddle Sideways: thanks all
    Zen Arado: with gloves on
    Eliza Madrigal: psychology cats... philosophy cats...
    Zen Arado: bye Riddle
    Bruce Mowbray: leave them alone (wu wei) and the cats will herd themselves.
    Eliza Madrigal: !!!
    Eliza Madrigal: Woo Hoo
    Bruce Mowbray: Time to go herding with my dog now.
    Bruce Mowbray: May all be well and happy.
    Zen Arado: cat's aren't herd animals
    Eliza Madrigal: I like that :) Be well and happy Bruce
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Zen
    Zen Arado: may all beings be happy :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I have to go also.... been a long but wonderful morning
    Bruce Mowbray: Thanks, everyone.
    Zen Arado: bye and thanks
    Eliza Madrigal: Thank you so much everyone
    Alfred Kelberry: i think cats are relatively easy to herd with whiskas
    Archmage Atlantis: Yep, cats and humans.....not herd animals
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Alfred Kelberry: bye, nice jeans, eliza :)
    Archmage Atlantis: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Thanks
    Eliza Madrigal: they both respond to food :)
    Alfred Kelberry: and purrs :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :::waves::::
    stevenaia Michinaga: bye all,
    Alfred Kelberry: have a good day all


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