2010.10.02 13:00 - To Control, Or Not to Control

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Aphrodite Macbain. The comments are by Aphrodite Macbain.


    Aphrodite Macbain: Hello Shunyata
    Shunyata Enchanted: Hello
    Aphrodite Macbain: Have you been here before?
    Shunyata Enchanted: once
    Aphrodite Macbain: Do you know that your comments are recorded if you speak?
    Shunyata Enchanted: Yes
    Aphrodite Macbain: and you don't mind? 
    Shunyata Enchanted: No
    Aphrodite Macbain: Great. Thanks.
    Shunyata Enchanted: Will others show up soon?
    Qt Core: Hi all
    Shunyata Enchanted: HI
    Aphrodite Macbain: Yes, here comes QT

    Roman Holidays, colds and the changing weather

    Qt Core: :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hi QTcomo stai?
    Qt Core: Bene, grazie, tu ?
    Aphrodite Macbain: Sono malata.
    Aphrodite Macbain: I have a cold :-(
    Aphrodite Macbain: and I leave for Rome in 2 days.
    Qt Core: this sudden summer end got many
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hello Alfred, good to see you
    Qt Core: hi Alfred
    Alfred Kelberry: *gives aph a health boost hug* :)
    Alfred Kelberry: oi :)
    Alfred Kelberry: qt the spicy man
    Aphrodite Macbain: Thanks Aldfred. That feels better already. Hugs and green tea - work every time
    Alfred Kelberry: :)
    Alfred Kelberry: um, don't think i've seen you, shun
    Shunyata Enchanted: Only been here once before
    Aphrodite Macbain: How is everyone feeling about the days getting shorter and cooler?
    Alfred Kelberry: ok, welcome then :)
    Alfred Kelberry: I feel fine :)
    Shunyata Enchanted: It was a hot summer, so I am enjoying cooler weather.
    Aphrodite Macbain: where do you live Shunyata?
    Shunyata Enchanted: Minnesota, USA
    Qt Core: it is just right for the time passing, but i think we are going to have some warm days again (like today at about 24)
    Aphrodite Macbain: That's good! Rome will be even warmer!
    Alfred Kelberry: wait, aph, was it you who wanted to see a movie the other day?
    Qt Core: and many think october is one of the best time to be in Rome too
    Aphrodite Macbain: ummm - I can't remember Alfred
    Aphrodite Macbain: Not too hot but I can sit outside in the Piazza Navona and sip my espresso!
    Alfred Kelberry: :)
    Alfred Kelberry: on vacation?
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes. 2 wks in Italy - Umbria and Rome
    Alfred Kelberry: neat
    Aphrodite Macbain: very. I've spent 4 months imagining 2 weeks!
    Alfred Kelberry: :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: Imagined time is richer and gets to the heart of things
    Alfred Kelberry: it'll be good to have you back with stories :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
    Alfred Kelberry: remembered time is not less richer :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: I am taking my mini lap top with me so I may pop in from time to time provided the technology allows it
    Alfred Kelberry: these 2 weeks will stay with you for many years... right there in your heart and mind :)
    Alfred Kelberry: oh, that's great!
    Alfred Kelberry: please, pop in and say hello from italy :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: right alfred. I will
    Alfred Kelberry: i see an intruder approaching!
    Alfred Kelberry: zen! :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: an intruder!? he he
    Alfred Kelberry: hehe
    Qt Core: Hi Zen
    Zen Arado: oi Alf :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Zen
    Zen Arado: Hi All

    Mini map and it's values

    Alfred Kelberry: i've been folowing you on the map, zen :)
    Alfred Kelberry: little green dot
    Aphrodite Macbain: has he been moving around?
    Zen Arado: I do that too
    Alfred Kelberry: yep :)
    Zen Arado: only from my rez spot
    Aphrodite Macbain: I don't have enough room on my screen
    Alfred Kelberry: aph, it's a mini map
    Alfred Kelberry: doesn't take much space
    Zen Arado: you don't have it in viewer 2 I think
    Alfred Kelberry: another dot is on the move :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: Oh that one. I hardly use it. Maybe I should.
    Alfred Kelberry: zen, there is
    Qt Core: there is it in v2 too
    Alfred Kelberry: aph, it's handy
    Alfred Kelberry: oi, stev :)
    Zen Arado: a mini map?
    Alfred Kelberry: yes
    Zen Arado: I couldn't find one
    Aphrodite Macbain: for what - spotting intruders?
    Alfred Kelberry: ctrl-shift-m
    Alfred Kelberry: yes, like zen :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: Peace
    Qt Core: it is useful even when others aren't rezzed yet, you still got to see where they are and, if zooming enough, you can even navigate around people without seeing them yet
    Alfred Kelberry: right, qt
    Qt Core: the only things it lacks is telling if others are above or below you, not just "at another level"
    Zen Arado: they should tell people about that feature
    Aphrodite Macbain: There are still so many things to learn in SL I didn't even realize that KIRA was up in the sky till I tried to find it one day
    Alfred Kelberry: aww, so cute :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: I could see it on the world map but couldn't get to it
    stevenaia Michinaga: I thought when they are not a circular "dot" it means they are on a different level
    Aphrodite Macbain: chevrons
    Qt Core: yes, steve, but up or down ?
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, didn't know what to call that shape, thanks
    Alfred Kelberry: qt, i think it's classified :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
    stevenaia Michinaga: oh, yes, up or down
    Aphrodite Macbain: I think they are seen as chevrons if there up
    stevenaia Michinaga: always assume up
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes. keep positive!
    Aphrodite Macbain: BTW Hi steve
    Zen Arado: Hi Steve
    Alfred Kelberry: :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: smiles, thx
    Aphrodite Macbain: I tried to get into Kira from up in the air but it was next to impossible. Then I clicked on a chair and whoosh there I was!
    Zen Arado: Hi Ara :)
    Qt Core: Hi Ara
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hello arabella
    arabella Ella: Hiya everyone!
    Alfred Kelberry: ara :)
    arabella Ella: Hey Alfie why are you still a cloud?
    arabella Ella: cant see you properly
    Alfred Kelberry: um, not sure
    stevenaia Michinaga: alf's not a cloud to me
    Shunyata Enchanted: nor me
    Alfred Kelberry: stealth mode is off :)
    Qt Core: nor me
    arabella Ella: must be my system then maybe not rezzed
    Aphrodite Macbain: No, Alfred is very boxy and solid
    Alfred Kelberry: hehe
    arabella Ella: very stealth-y to me
    Aphrodite Macbain: What would people like to talk about?
    Aphrodite Macbain: Is there a burning issue?
    arabella Ella thinks
    Zen Arado: we have to talk?
    Alfred Kelberry: aph, do you have a flight feather?
    stevenaia Michinaga: smiles
    Aphrodite Macbain: Yes- Steve just gave me one. I'm looking forward to trying it out
    Alfred Kelberry: ah, ok :)
    arabella Ella: do you have a topic to suggest Aph?
    Aphrodite Macbain: This is where SL works its miracles
    Zen Arado: handy for skyboxes

    Change and whether we can make or prevent it

    Aphrodite Macbain: well -was thinking about change and how we handle it. But it's a big subject. Change of weather to change of states (birth/death)
    Zen Arado: :)
    arabella Ella: interesting topic
    stevenaia Michinaga: or when is change not change
    Zen Arado: it's all change
    Aphrodite Macbain: I'm watching the season change, a beautiful time of year, but I'm aware a friend is dying far away in a Toronto hospital
    arabella Ella: when the change is handed back to you in notes?
    Aphrodite Macbain: I want to cling on to "now"
    Zen Arado: the problem is when we don't want change
    Aphrodite Macbain: ;-) arabella
    Shunyata Enchanted: Wanting...many want to...but there is no way to cling onto it.
    Alfred Kelberry: aph... yes, bittersweet
    Aphrodite Macbain: It's that powerlessness thing again
    Shunyata Enchanted: It is only a problem when you want to be powerful
    Alfred Kelberry: shun :)
    arabella Ella: i think she means she wants to be her own 'agent' for action but is powerless
    Aphrodite Macbain: for me it's not wanting to be powerful but in control of the situation
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes arabella
    Aphrodite Macbain: like king canute stopping the tide
    Zen Arado: illusions of control
    Shunyata Enchanted: Yes, control is an illusion
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes.
    Zen Arado: Hi Bert :)
    arabella Ella: Hiya Bert!
    Qt Core: knowing you can't, usually wont stop you from wanting (whatever the subject :) )
    Qt Core: hi bert
    Bertram Jacobus: hello everybody :-)
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bertram - good to see you
    arabella Ella: sounds a bit like wishful thinking too to me
    Aphrodite Macbain: Glad you're inspired Bertram.
    Shunyata Enchanted: Deeply realizing you can't , will stop you from wanting
    Qt Core: yes, that was the "usually" part ;-)
    Zen Arado: see through the illusion
    Shunyata Enchanted: see through it so thoroughly that the illusion no longer fools you
    arabella Ella: isn't it more the case of embracing change whether it is good or bad or neutral?
    Aphrodite Macbain: the challenge of removing the dependency without loosing the caring
    Bertram Jacobus winks at aph :-)
    Aphrodite Macbain: /aph winks back at bert
    Aphrodite Macbain also winks back
    Zen Arado: acceptance and no resistance
    Bertram Jacobus giggles silently ... :-)
    Aphrodite Macbain: we need so much strength to accept
    Aphrodite Macbain: it also helps to giggle
    Zen Arado: more like abandoning strength?
    Shunyata Enchanted: Do you need strength to accept? Will not accepting change what is?
    Zen Arado: and having a giggle :)
    arabella Ella: it sounds like a heart breaking situation
    Zen Arado: strength implies resistance maybe?
    Aphrodite Macbain: hmmm. no. I think I need my strength to act appropriately
    Shunyata Enchanted: It is effortless...effort is needed to resist what is
    Zen Arado: accepting the situation fully
    Shunyata Enchanted: Surrendering to what is, fully
    Aphrodite Macbain: Yes. But don't you think that acceptance requires strength?
    arabella Ella: of course you need your strength
    stevenaia Michinaga: since you cannot change the situation, acceptance may be the most satisfying
    Zen Arado: in a way I suppose
    Bertram Jacobus associates the songtitle from santana : "love, devotion and surrender" ...
    Aphrodite Macbain: otherwise we'd be all wishy washy with no direction, no resolve..
    Shunyata Enchanted: why
    Zen Arado: I used to think there would be too much passivity in this kind of behaviour
    Aphrodite Macbain: no resistance could mean blindly following all your passions - jealousy, anger, etc
    Zen Arado: you will usually choose the best option from what comes up though
    Qt Core: Hi Selene
    Aphrodite Macbain: best for whom?
    Zen Arado: In fact you can't help doing that
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hello Selene. welcome
    Zen Arado: Hi Selene
    Shunyata Enchanted: Hi
    Zen Arado: for everyone
    Bertram Jacobus: "may i have the gift to be able to act when i can do so and to accept when i cant. and may i have the gift of being able to see, which of those situations is given" ...
    Zen Arado: I think anyway
    Selene Northman: Hi Zen, hi everyone :)
    Bertram Jacobus: heyy selene :-)
    Qt Core: i seem to have chat lag tonight, i'm not writing novels
    Zen Arado: I'm only thinking out loud Aphro
    Selene Northman: hi Bertram :-)
    Aphrodite Macbain: know when to hold 'em, when to fold 'em and when to walk away
    Aphrodite Macbain: well -you get th drift...
    stevenaia Michinaga: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVXVMGHsMHk
    Zen Arado: and the knowing comes naturally
    Aphrodite Macbain: what's that steve?
    Aphrodite Macbain: do you think so Zen? Isn't knowledge learned, constructed?
    stevenaia Michinaga: love devotion and surrender
    Zen Arado: and Rubeeee - don't take your love to town ....:)
    Bertram Jacobus: aarghs ! ;o) - we are not allowed to see it in germany because sony forbids that steve (!) :-(
    Shunyata Enchanted: intuition is beyond knowledge and the mind
    Aphrodite Macbain: he he
    Shunyata Enchanted: It comes from being
    Zen Arado: yes - but how much of it is under our control?
    stevenaia Michinaga: sorry Bert
    Zen Arado: it is what just happened in our life
    Zen Arado: we were shaped by destiny - like that phrase :)
    Bertram Jacobus: You didn't  have to say sorry for that steve (!) on the contrary : ty ...
    Aphrodite Macbain: don't you think life does more than "happen" to us?
    Shunyata Enchanted: change is inevitable...there is no use in resisting it
    Zen Arado: like - why can't I just sit and keep quiet?
    Zen Arado: why do I have a compulsion to talk so much ?
    Aphrodite Macbain: some things can and mus be changed - like slavery, racism, women's rights, poverty, wars
    Bertram Jacobus: found it here for germany - (also for selene, without video, only pictures) ...
    Bertram Jacobus: http://facebookvideoindir.me/carlos-...surrender.html
    Selene Northman: well you can, but even this is an action and causes change, Zen
    Aphrodite Macbain: we can't just sit on our butts and watch the world go by.
    Zen Arado: but they can only be changed when the time is right
    Zen Arado: slavery lasted over 300 years
    Aphrodite Macbain: Pause...
    arabella Ella: hiya
    Aphrodite Macbain: Things are changed by people
    Zen Arado: sorry for talking during break Aph
    Selene Northman: hi Arabella :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
    Zen Arado: wb Ara
    Bertram Jacobus: wb ara ! :-)
    Shunyata Enchanted: Yes, but change cannot be stopped by people
    arabella Ella: ty :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: we all do. it's easy to Zen!
    Aphrodite Macbain: I think some changes can be stopped. That's what democracy is for.
    Zen Arado: but your voice would not be heard until society is ready for the change
    Bertram Jacobus: i think, it´s unclear what can be changed and what not, what is illusion and what not ...
    Shunyata Enchanted: Nothing lasts forever....change is inevitable
    Bertram Jacobus: we can try and do so as if something would be possible at least - and i think, normally - we act ...
    Zen Arado: we wouldn't even think about changing something until a certain time...
    arabella Ella: but surely if we are in an unjust or wrong situation we ought to do our best to change it to make the world a better place?
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes arabella

    Aphrodite Macbain: timing is important, but I'm not going to wait around for the change I want  to happen, but to help create an environment when the change I want can happen
    Aphrodite Macbain: no point in being apathetic
    Zen Arado: maybe we don't see it as unjust until a certain time Ara
    arabella Ella: like bullied kids, battered people, etc
    Zen Arado: like women's rights
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes
    Aphrodite Macbain: have to start somewhere
    arabella Ella: yes take the vote for women for example
    Shunyata Enchanted: For everything there is a time and season
    Qt Core: but then who knows if you "have" to be the spark that will start something ?
    Zen Arado: 'cometh the hour cometh the man...
    Aphrodite Macbain: and the time is now
    Zen Arado: and that is even sexist
    arabella Ella: LOL ... it sure is
    Zen Arado: if you were the person who would initiate change could you stop yourself?
    Aphrodite Macbain: depends
    Aphrodite Macbain: on how I would begin
    Zen Arado: the urge would be too strong
    Aphrodite Macbain: I would start by listening to others, looking at the picture from others' perspectives
    Zen Arado: thinking of a silly example - John Connor in Terminator.:)
    Aphrodite Macbain: change is a collaborative affair

    arabella Ella: depends what sort of change
    Aphrodite Macbain: never saw Terminaor
    Aphrodite Macbain: what happened?
    Zen Arado: great men would accomplish little without their wife backing them up in the past..
    arabella Ella: ah ... then there should be a wife for every male and female on the planet Zen
    Zen Arado: it's as if he was destined to save humanity
    Aphrodite Macbain: behind every great man is a woman working her fingers to the bone...
    Zen Arado: but it was a silly movie
    Zen Arado: true
    Zen Arado: but we are all so dependent on others
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes, we have to be realistic when we try and make change happen.
    Zen Arado: so causes intersect until some great change occurs
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, actions should be effective
    Aphrodite Macbain: A lot of bad is done with the best of intentions
    Aphrodite Macbain: On my tombstone should be written "She meant well"
    Zen Arado: it isn't so easy to know what is good or bad sometimes
    Shunyata Enchanted: and what change to make...there is an old saying that goes 'the right means by the wrong person gets wrong results"
    Zen Arado: in the long run
    Zen Arado: yes
    arabella Ella: gtg good night everyone!
    Qt Core: 'night ara
    Zen Arado: nie Ara
    Bertram Jacobus: gn ara ! ...
    Selene Northman: gn ara
    Zen Arado: Ara was destined to go
    Aphrodite Macbain: ara had to go because she decided to
    stevenaia Michinaga: her decision, our destiny
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes. nicely put. the worlds' decisions, our destiny

    Zen Arado: you know the old story about good and bad ?
    stevenaia Michinaga: listens
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes Zen?
    Bertram Jacobus: no. tell me please zen !? :-)
    Zen Arado: There is a Taoist story of an old farmer who had worked his crops for many years. One day his horse ran away. Upon hearing the news, his neighbors came to visit.  Such bad luck they said sympathetically. Maybe,the farmer replied. The next morning the horse returned, bringing with it three other wild horses. How wonderful,the neighbors exclaimed. Maybe, replied the old man. The following day, his son tried to ride one of the untamed horses, was thrown, and broke his leg. The neighbors again came to offer their sympathy on his misfortune. Maybe, answered the farmer. The day after, military officials came to the village to draft young men into the army. Seeing that the son's leg was broken, they passed him by. The neighbors congratulated the farmer on how well things had turned out. Maybe, said the farmer.
    Aphrodite Macbain: nice
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    Zen Arado: best thing to change is yourself
    Shunyata Enchanted: what can be changed is not yourself
    Aphrodite Macbain: we seem to speak in quotable aphorisms
    stevenaia Michinaga: or setting the stage for a debate
    Aphrodite Macbain: I will now bid you all farewell. Thank you for an excellent disussion
    Zen Arado: can you elaborate Shunyata?
    Bertram Jacobus: bye aph have a great time
    Zen Arado: bye Aphroo

    Of gold, emptiness and bananas

    stevenaia Michinaga: bye Aphrodite
    Shunyata Enchanted: A certain quantity of gold is used to make a fork, then a ring - what changed but the forms.
    Qt Core: bye Aphro
    Shunyata Enchanted: Forms come after...are acquired.
    Zen Arado: ok - getting caught in words I am
    Zen Arado: form is emptiness as they say
    Shunyata Enchanted: Yes
    Shunyata Enchanted: Can emptiness be changed?
    Zen Arado: emptiness is change
    Shunyata Enchanted: What changes?
    Selene Northman: emptiness is a state
    Zen Arado: change changes :)
    Zen Arado: HI Bruce
    Zen Arado: it's indescribable
    Bruce Mowbray: Hello, everyone. Please continue with your discussion. . .
    Selene Northman: Hi Bruce :)
    Bertram Jacobus: hey bruce ! :-)
    Qt Core: Hi Bruce
    Bertram Jacobus: Day-o, me say daaay-o~
    Shunyata Enchanted: day light come and I wanna go home
    Bruce Mowbray thinks: Wow! (love bananas).
    Bertram Jacobus: :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: Day-o, me say daaay-o~
    Bruce Mowbray also love Pink Floyd -- and Noob Mind Beginners Mind.
    Zen Arado: :)
    Bertram Jacobus giggles ... sry ... :o)
    Zen Arado: and Non Duality teaching?
    Shunyata Enchanted: what about it?
    Zen Arado: reading a lot of it atm
    Zen Arado: Nisargadatta
    Shunyata Enchanted: I prefer Ramana Maharshi
    Zen Arado: haven't got to him yet
    Zen Arado: reading Sailor Bob too :)
    Bertram Jacobus: i learned my first meditation method at maharishi
    Zen Arado: it's all the same message underneath though I think
    Zen Arado: maybe just different ways of teaching it
    Shunyata Enchanted: Yes...slightly different pointers or verbology
    Zen Arado: yes Bert?
    Zen Arado: and practices

    Practicing our practice - being That
    Bertram Jacobus: i only noticed the names Zen : nisargadatta, ramana maharshi, maharishi mahes yogi ...
    Shunyata Enchanted: Nonduality really doesn't have practices...for who/what is practicing
    Bertram Jacobus: and wanted to agree in a way : different ways , explanations, angles ...
    Zen Arado: is talking to a guru a practice?
    Shunyata Enchanted: No
    Shunyata Enchanted: Unles you make it one
    Zen Arado: like the way Nisargatta strips away people's concepts
    Bertram Jacobus: may be people have different understandings of the meaning of the word "practice"
    Zen Arado: there is no one to practice I guess
    Shunyata Enchanted: and no where to get to
    Shunyata Enchanted: and nothing to attain
    Zen Arado: yes
    Zen Arado: we are here already
    Bertram Jacobus: but we can play
    Shunyata Enchanted: tat tvam asi
    Zen Arado: ?
    Shunyata Enchanted: You are That
    Selene Northman: at least we can play ;)
    Bertram Jacobus: i agree selene :-)
    Zen Arado: I am that - as Nisargadatta says
    Shunyata Enchanted: all there is....is play
    Zen Arado: agree:)
    Zen Arado: do you go to Urban Guru Cafe Shunyata?
    stevenaia Michinaga: bye all
    stevenaia Michinaga: bye
    Shunyata Enchanted: not really...though I know about them
    Zen Arado: bye Steve
    Qt Core: bye steve
    Shunyata Enchanted: bye
    Selene Northman: bye stev :)
    Bertram Jacobus: bye steve ! *wave* ...
    Bruce Mowbray: Be well and happy, steve.
    Zen Arado: I joined but haven't been there yet
    Zen Arado: might try it tomorrow
    Shunyata Enchanted: if you wanted to check out a podcast series - go to http://www.awaken2life.org/podcast-more-oom.html
    Zen Arado: ok thanks
    Shunyata Enchanted: 77 fifteen minute episodes
    Shunyata Enchanted: Here is a video about Ramana Maharshi = http://www.awaken2life.org/web-links...the-selfq.html
    Qt Core: time to go, bye all
    Bruce Mowbray: Be well, Qt.
    Bertram Jacobus: bye qt - cu - have a good time plz ! *wave*
    Zen Arado: bye Qt
    Bruce Mowbray ponders why his avi did the muscle pose instead of the Banana Boat animation.
    Zen Arado: thanks Shun
    Bruce Mowbray: Day-o, me say daaay-o~
    Bertram Jacobus: lol :-))
    Zen Arado: :)
    Bruce Mowbray -- just trying it out. . . No intention to side-track the discussion. Please continue.
    Bertram Jacobus: the thing with these so called "gestures" is, that the first time always they must be loaded and so only from the second time playing them they are "perfect" sadly ... ;o)
    Bruce Mowbray: ok. Thanks, Bert -- and thanks for the animation, too!
    Bertram Jacobus: yw bruce :-)
    Shunyata Enchanted: Oops, try this link instead http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...80pmUCA&hl=en#
    Bertram Jacobus: and that is again and again like said before (with those loadings) - after every log in ...
    Zen Arado: ok
    Shunyata Enchanted: And there is Awaken to the Eternal by Nisargadatta - http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...O2tj3Bw&hl=en#
    Shunyata Enchanted: a couple of my favorite videos....
    Zen Arado: I am investigating non duality teachings
    Zen Arado: doesn't mean I will stay on that path.....
    Bertram Jacobus: I'll leave now - ty for the talk !
    Zen Arado: ty Bert bye
    Bruce Mowbray: Be well, Bert. And thanks again!
    Bertram Jacobus: may all beings be happy plz !
    Shunyata Enchanted: bye
    Selene Northman: bye all, and a pleasant day :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Be well, Selene.
    Zen Arado: I'll have to go too
    Bruce Mowbray: Be well, Zen.
    Zen Arado: bye all and thanks for discussion
    Shunyata Enchanted: me too
    Bruce Mowbray: be well, Shunyata!
    Shunyata Enchanted: bye

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