2010.10.03 13:00 - Innocence and Experience

    The Guardian for this meeting was Maxine Walden. The comments are by Maxine Walden.


    Maxine Walden: hi, Barcalona
    Barcalona Rhapsody: hi max
    Barcalona Rhapsody: most ppl are at the art exhibition
    Maxine Walden: ah, yes.
    Maxine Walden: hi,Wol Euler: hello maxine, barca
    Wol Euler: oh, you're right, there is a crowd at the art place
    Maxine Walden: ah, maybe the area of interest at the moment, the art
    Maxine Walden: so many things going on!
    Wol Euler: they must be running overtime
    Barcalona Rhapsody: but they talked about time
    Wol Euler: hello yaku
    Maxine Walden: losing track of time is easy in SL, at least for me
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
    Barcalona Rhapsody: that u can make your own time
    Eliza Madrigal: Barcelonaya sounds like one word...
    Eliza Madrigal: ::chomp::::
    Bruce Mowbray: Oh! I'm sorry! I'm in a sorts bar and the connection is weird....
    Bruce Mowbray: sports*
    Maxine Walden: :) Bruce
    Aphrodite Macbain: what's a sorts bar
    Eliza Madrigal: not at all... we must have clicked at the same moment ... me an instant before...
    Yakuzza Lethecus: :)
    Wol Euler: hello bleu
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bruce - you missed a good discussion on the art work
    Eliza Madrigal: Very nice, yes :))
    Wol Euler just got in from work, sadly
    Aphrodite Macbain: Better than any docent tour I've been on
    Maxine Walden: yes, sorry I had to miss it too
    Bruce Mowbray: Really? --- Oh yes, I was at Quaker Meeting this afternoon and couldn't attend that.
    Aphrodite Macbain: Some amazing stuff there
    Bleu Oleander: there will be more :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: worth a visit
    Wol Euler: noted :)
    Barcalona Rhapsody: sure
    Bleu Oleander: follow some of the landmarks
    Maxine Walden: ah...thanks so, Bleu and yes, noted for me as well
    Aphrodite Macbain: That was the RL Quakers meeting wasn't it Bruce
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, RL -- in Circleville, Ohio.
    Eliza Madrigal: (lag... typed that ages ago)
    Bleu Oleander: noticed the lag too
    Maxine Walden: hi, Arabella, nice to see you
    Barcalona Rhapsody: hi ara
    arabella Ella: nice to see all of you too!
    arabella Ella waves back to Bruce
    Aphrodite Macbain is thinking how much she loves the term verbalicious
    Wol Euler grins
    Maxine Walden: delicious sounding, verbalicious
    Aphrodite Macbain: There's a little being wandering around near the cushions
    Maxine Walden: oh?
    Aphrodite Macbain: Oh I think it's blub
    arabella Ella: is the being visible to all of us as i cant see anything
    Maxine Walden: ah!! :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: no it's only blub
    Bruce Mowbray: Well, Blub is a little being - but his wandering is quite restricted.
    Aphrodite Macbain: Yes, like Misty. Round and round and round
    arabella Ella: he is very faithful isnt he
    Aphrodite Macbain: He knows where his fish food is
    Maxine Walden: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zen :) Again
    Eliza Madrigal: Its zen again...naturally...
    Maxine Walden: any PaB discussion items?
    Zen Arado: in a little while from now....
    Mickorod Renard: Hiya
    Bleu Oleander: (bye all ... rl challenge)
    Eliza Madrigal: wow, almost full circle... quick grab someone
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah
    Maxine Walden: thanks for coming Bleu
    Eliza Madrigal: Okay... two people...
    Wol Euler: *bleu
    Maxine Walden: :))
    Bruce Mowbray: What will happen in a little while from now, Mick?
    Zen Arado: it was a silly song Eliza reminded me of
    Maxine Walden: hi, Eos
    Bruce Mowbray: sorry -- I mean that directed to Zen.
    Eos Amaterasu: hi gang
    Mickorod Renard: erm,,Ara will log on again
    Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Eos.
    Eliza Madrigal: what a surprise
    Wol Euler: :)
    Wol Euler: eos, where are you today?
    Zen Arado: 'Alone again naturally ....
    Mickorod Renard: hi eos
    Zen Arado: Hi Eos
    Eos Amaterasu: I'm in Berlin
    Wol Euler: wow
    Maxine Walden: ah!!
    Eos Amaterasu: ich bin ein virtuale Berliner
    Wol Euler: wb ara
    Maxine Walden: :))
    Wol Euler grins
    Mickorod Renard: :)
    Zen Arado: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    Eliza Madrigal: :))
    Yakuzza Lethecus: will you stay in germany until the retreat is going to happen ?
    Eliza Madrigal: We missed your telling us about your puzzling picture for the exhibit eos...
    arabella Ella: ty ... awww crashed
    Eos Amaterasu: no, will return there though for the RL retreat by way of Amsterdam, Paris, and San Sebastian (the long way around)
    Wol Euler: O.O
    Maxine Walden: :)
    Wol Euler: that is indeed the long way
    Eos Amaterasu: You mean you were puzzled by Baby Eos?
    Eliza Madrigal: quite!
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Wol Euler: that#s like going from New York to Washington via Chicago
    Barcalona Rhapsody: well folks i have to go
    Barcalona Rhapsody: bye all
    Eos Amaterasu: Sorry I missed the Being Puzzled session
    Eliza Madrigal: It was great, and we missed you... but we can paste your comments :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: hi ara
    arabella Ella: hiya again
    Eos Amaterasu: a baby is the very embodiment of fresh being puzzled, neh?
    Aphrodite Macbain: :-) or being totally accepting of what is
    Eos Amaterasu: plus I couldn't resist the lock of hair :-)
    Bruce Mowbray thinks "Noob mind Beginner's Mind."
    Eliza Madrigal: freshly puzzled, very nice
    Zen Arado: the world must be a puzzling place when you are just born
    Wol Euler nods.
    Aphrodite Macbain: I wonder
    Eos Amaterasu: yeah, in my first baby picture I look worried and a bit paranoid
    Wol Euler: :)
    Maxine Walden: agree, from 'inside' to 'outside' ...rather suddenly in most cases
    Eliza Madrigal: thankfully you can't see much of it... just a hand's distance?
    Aphrodite Macbain: being puzzled means nothing quitee makes sense
    Eliza Madrigal: mmm, nods Maxine!
    Mickorod Renard: innocence negates puzzlement
    Eos Amaterasu: thinking out of the womb
    Maxine Walden: :) Eos
    Eliza Madrigal: hahah
    Aphrodite Macbain: but since a babe is innocent of knowldge - there is no need to make sense of anything it experiences\
    Zen Arado: yes Mick - we aren't puzzle until we start to think? Just experiencing all the sensations
    Aphrodite Macbain: it just feels
    Zen Arado: puzzled*
    Aphrodite Macbain: preeeecisely
    Eliza Madrigal apologizes for leaving early but must give up the computer to son and homework ... (Hi Steve)
    Wol Euler: wwwwwww
    Wol Euler: +a
    arabella Ella: bye Eliza hiys steve
    Maxine Walden: hi, steve, bye eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: bye for now :) hugs
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Steve
    Mickorod Renard: bye eliza
    Zen Arado: loves hugs :)
    Zen Arado: like a baby
    Maxine Walden: :)) Zen
    arabella Ella: meeee tooo!
    Maxine Walden: :)) ara
    Maxine Walden: Guess we all love hugs
    arabella Ella: aren't we all babes at heart
    Maxine Walden: indeed ara!
    Zen Arado: we have to become as a little child - Jesus said
    arabella Ella nods
    Zen Arado: have the innocence of a child I think he meant
    Zen Arado: the freshness
    Zen Arado: openness
    arabella Ella: yes
    Aphrodite Macbain: I must go to my yoga class now. Bye all
    Bruce Mowbray: enthusiasm/amazement
    Eos Amaterasu: Ciao, Aph
    Zen Arado: bye Aphro - have a good class
    Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
    Aphrodite Macbain: grazie tutti!
    Bruce Mowbray: de nada!
    arabella Ella: (italian is 'prego')
    Bruce Mowbray thinks that 'innocence' is more of a mental construct than an actual state of being.
    Zen Arado: more like a lack of mental constructs?
    arabella Ella: but that raises a question for me
    Zen Arado: or making them too quickly?
    Wol Euler: hello gaya
    Zen Arado: Hi Gaya
    Mickorod Renard: I get the feeling that when you become the child again it is another layer, you dont loose the old self but have another set of eyes to see extra perceptions
    arabella Ella: why is it that kids aged around 8 or so get to be attracted to violence on TV, games, etc.?
    Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Gaya.
    Zen Arado: the old perceptions block seeing maybe
    Mickorod Renard: without the key yes Zen
    Zen Arado: maybe we are conditioned by the media that way Ara?
    Mickorod Renard: :)
    Wol Euler: so it's about learning to read?
    arabella Ella: i dunno i find violence repulsive
    Zen Arado: wonders if it is natural
    Eos Amaterasu: William Blake had some wise poesy about innocence and experience
    Bruce Mowbray: yeah, Zena nd Mick. . . the oldhabituated reactive patterns
    arabella Ella: but kids seem to be so fascinated to it from a young age ... even in kids movies for example
    Bruce Mowbray: Blub loves Wm. Blake.
    Eos Amaterasu: innocence can be turned into a maintained outlook and one can fear to let that og
    Eos Amaterasu: go
    Maxine Walden: there may also be some evolutionary trigger ra aggression about that age, when our ancestors began to teach the kids to hunt, etc...
    Eos Amaterasu: experience is necessary
    arabella Ella: it may also be visible in the way kids may tend to bully each other at that age
    Zen Arado: but the young of species only play at violence to prepare for real hunting later on?
    Eos Amaterasu: testing each other, probing
    Maxine Walden: about that age, perhaps 'being big' which may involve making others feel small comes into view
    Bruce Mowbray: Like cat babies, Zen?
    arabella Ella: could it be that the media 'feed' on that 'instinct' and it ends up becomming a vicious circle?
    Mickorod Renard: I am sure they are testing the ground too, they will hold onto ground made
    Zen Arado: yesp
    Zen Arado: kittens
    Zen Arado: hmm..maybe Ara
    Eos Amaterasu: the media is a key part of a "predator culture" that feeds on us
    Zen Arado: feed it
    Zen Arado: feed our violent instincts
    Bruce Mowbray: how can we have violent instincts and be innocent at the same time?
    Maxine Walden: it even seems when the media is minimized, that boys go for 'guns' or aggressive play of some sort, while girls go for more contained and nurturing activities...
    arabella Ella: all our instincts i guess not only violent ones
    Alfred Kelberry: meep-meep!
    Eos Amaterasu: we amplify our playing as fighting games thru media and technology and monetization that has no animal sentience
    Mickorod Renard: :)
    Alfred Kelberry: cute bunny :)
    Zen Arado: Hi Alf
    arabella Ella: Hey Alfie!
    Wol Euler: hello boxboy
    Mickorod Renard: I think the innocence is under threat from day one
    Alfred Kelberry: woly in feathers :)
    Wol Euler grins
    Bruce Mowbray agrees with Mick about the Day One threats.
    Eos Amaterasu: but innocence has to learn fast, else it's dead meat
    Gaya Ethaniel: :(
    Eos Amaterasu: has to push itself into a higher innocence
    Eos Amaterasu: innocence without naivete
    Mickorod Renard: then for some its rediscovered but tarnished
    Gaya Ethaniel: RL - enjoy the rest of your weekend :)
    Alfred Kelberry: innocence as in purity?
    Bruce Mowbray: When we drop what we have in order to be what we are, is that not a return to innocence?
    Zen Arado: seems like it to me
    Bruce Mowbray: A "higher innocence...."
    Wol Euler: I find "innocence" a pretty loaded term, actually
    Zen Arado: it isn't our innocence that gets us in trouble is it?
    Alfred Kelberry: um, what kind of innocence do you mean, bruce?
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, a loaded mental construct -- like "justice" or "evil" etc etc etc.
    Wol Euler: it suggests a state of neutrality and objecctivity, but the word itself is extremely heavily loaded
    Bruce Mowbray: Well, I do feel that "innocence" has meaning. . .
    Alfred Kelberry: *nods to wol*
    arabella Ella: does it not suggeest a lack of malicious intent?
    Bruce Mowbray: I see it close to equinimity.
    Eos Amaterasu: innocence when overextended (like in Peter Pan) becomes corrupt
    Eos Amaterasu: a kind of ignoranc
    Eos Amaterasu: e
    Zen Arado: "artlessness: the quality of innocent naivete purity: the state of being unsullied by sin or moral wrong; lacking a knowledge of evil a state or condition of being innocent of a specific crime or offense; "the trial established his innocence"
    Mickorod Renard: I feel that to regain a life in some form of innocence is in todays world is seen as a very weak and naive triat. the dificulty for many is being humble enough to accept the perception by others, evenif its mis guided thoughts by others
    Zen Arado: it's too close to naivete
    Eos Amaterasu: "an innocent abroad"
    Zen Arado: have to be 'wise as serpets but harmless as doves' it says in the Bible
    Bruce Mowbray: Is "Beginner's Mind" a sort of naivete?
    Mickorod Renard: thats a nice view Zen
    Alfred Kelberry: i rather prefer the term "kindness" that's being used in buddhism
    Eos Amaterasu: Zen Mind, Teflon Mind: nothing sticks
    Zen Arado: hmm...think it's more about retaining a fresh attitude - not being a know all
    Bruce Mowbray: so . . . also, no reactiveness. (and no stuckness).
    Zen Arado: not letting our knowledge prejudge everything
    Bruce Mowbray: Equanimity: neither preference nor prejudice.
    Zen Arado: not being cunical too I guess
    Zen Arado: cynical *
    Mickorod Renard: thats a tricky state to obtain zen,,at least dificult to maintain
    arabella Ella: brb
    Zen Arado: it happens with less thinking ...I think
    Wol Euler looks up from her Concordance and chuckles at Eos' joke
    Mickorod Renard: but when one see's through diferent eyes so many wrongs appear with clarity
    Maxine Walden: have to go...rl calling...will grab the log...nice conversation
    Zen Arado: agrees with Eos - not remembering and clinging to the past too much
    Wol Euler: bye maxine, take care
    Bruce Mowbray: Be well, Maxine.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye everyone
    Eos Amaterasu: first thought, best ~~, Max
    Eos Amaterasu: whups
    Alfred Kelberry: eos, nothing sticks except zen mind? :)
    Eos Amaterasu: well, zen can be overly zenny too
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    Zen Arado: zen mind is a teflon mind :)
    Mickorod Renard: that would be something of an objective for me Eos
    Alfred Kelberry: there's always something attached
    Bruce Mowbray: my "first thought" is too ofetn a reactive emotion-thought.
    Zen Arado: no self = nothing to stick TO
    Mickorod Renard: I still hurt from what I see
    Wol Euler: it's interesting to consider what babies are innocent *of*
    Wol Euler: certainly not self-attachment, there's nothing on earth more purely egotistical than a baby
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, innocence implies not guilty.
    Eos Amaterasu: perhaps they are innocent of experience
    Mickorod Renard: ignorance is bliss
    Eos Amaterasu: question is how to have knowingness _and_ freshness
    Zen Arado: selfish but they don't know about others yet Wol?
    Bruce Mowbray: agrees with Wol abot selfish/egotistical babies.
    Mickorod Renard: babies aare very selfish
    Alfred Kelberry: eos, i think it's curiosity
    Wol Euler: true, they don't have intention in the sense we use that word
    Zen Arado: they have to be so dependent we feel they are selfish too
    Bruce Mowbray: Babies seem to "know" how to get what they need.
    Zen Arado: they have so many needs
    Mickorod Renard: I have one here,,when she wants feeding she has no consideration what football match is on television
    Wol Euler: heheheh
    Eos Amaterasu: :-)
    Zen Arado: yes so selfish :)
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    Alfred Kelberry: right, so we proved that babies are not innocent :)
    Bruce Mowbray: revision: Babies seem to know how to get others to get what they (babies) need.
    Zen Arado: innocent until proven guilty :)
    Mickorod Renard: :)
    Zen Arado: better go - bye all thanks for discussion:)
    Wol Euler: goodnight zen, take care
    Mickorod Renard: bye zen,,take care
    Bruce Mowbray: Actually (and there is a baby screaming right now in this sports bar). . . we're more talking about "innocence" than about babies, I think - perhaps.
    Mickorod Renard: perhaps we have hit on a point,,perhaps the innocence we are looking for is nothing like a babies
    Bruce Mowbray: Good point, Mick.
    Eos Amaterasu: Must also depart, bye all!
    Mickorod Renard: bye eos
    Bruce Mowbray: Be well, Eos.
    Wol Euler: bye eos, take care
    Bruce Mowbray: I think I shall be out of this NOISEY sports bar now.. THANKS, everyone.
    Wol Euler: heheheh
    Wol Euler: bye bruce
    Mickorod Renard: we need an innocence after knowledge, that is something you have to work on
    Alfred Kelberry: bye ny fan
    Mickorod Renard: bye Bruce
    Bruce Mowbray: Bye, may all be well and happy 9and innocent too, if that works.)
    stevenaia Michinaga: bye
    Mickorod Renard: Did maxine talk about dreams?
    Wol Euler: not htat I heard
    Mickorod Renard: ok,,ty
    Wol Euler: we could start now!
    Alfred Kelberry: um, some would say that wearing an outfit like ara's in a public place may be considered *not* innocent :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: I haven't been dreaming latey
    Alfred Kelberry: i like ara's choice of clothing, though :)
    Mickorod Renard: or perhaps not remembering the dreams Stevenaia
    stevenaia Michinaga: hard to say which
    Wol Euler: I've been dreaming pretty intensely about SL the last few days
    Alfred Kelberry: mick, yes, they say we always dream
    arabella Ella: Alfie ... i am from the Mediterranean where it is still summer
    arabella Ella: come visit any time and i will show you what is not innocent :)
    Wol Euler chuckles.
    Alfred Kelberry: ara, yes, please :)
    arabella Ella: anytime alfie!
    Alfred Kelberry: wee! :)
    Mickorod Renard: i bet your dreams are from sorting the retreat Wol
    Wol Euler: heheh
    Wol Euler: there is a little bit of panic surfacing as it approaches, I'll admit that
    Alfred Kelberry: panic? you?
    Wol Euler: me.
    Alfred Kelberry: *hugs woly and pats her back*
    Wol Euler pokes your cardboard belly
    Wol Euler: affectionately
    Alfred Kelberry: it'll be a lovely retreat :)
    Wol Euler: I do hope so
    Mickorod Renard: I have just seen that europe is now on high allert from terrorism attacks
    Alfred Kelberry: mmm, cardboard belly - i like that :)
    Alfred Kelberry: oh, yes, mick
    stevenaia Michinaga: wow, 2 weeks
    Alfred Kelberry: heard that on the news
    stevenaia Michinaga: looks at retreat schedule
    Alfred Kelberry: i'm sure woly is safe, though :)
    Wol Euler: I hope os.
    Wol Euler: *so
    Mickorod Renard: you will need to check all participants for explosives and so forth,,its your duty Wol
    Wol Euler: oh yes.
    Alfred Kelberry: :)
    Wol Euler: I have a sniffer dog and metal detector on order
    Alfred Kelberry: a little puppy on retreat would be nice :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: there may be a long wait for those
    Mickorod Renard: its sad though, that so few can cause so much hurt
    Wol Euler: are you volunteering to care for it, alf?
    Alfred Kelberry: um, i can for a week :)
    Alfred Kelberry: mick, yes, and simple people have to suffer all the "security measures" while terrorists don't have a problem with that
    Wol Euler: I'll be checking for alcohol and cigarettes too, actually, both forbidden at teh retreat centre
    Wol Euler: "pure in body and soul" y'know
    Wol Euler: there's that "innocence" thing again
    Alfred Kelberry: good rule
    Mickorod Renard: cigars are ok though,,Pema recognised them as meditational tools
    Mickorod Renard: :)
    Wol Euler: I'll tell them that.
    Wol Euler: "it's one of our sacred practices."
    Alfred Kelberry: they do smell nice
    Mickorod Renard: some do
    Alfred Kelberry: unlike ikcy cig smoke
    Alfred Kelberry: cigar shops are almost like tea shops with all the smell and little packs :)
    Mickorod Renard: I remember years ago, whilst in France in a bar one would savour the smellof french cigs,,but alas the French smoke typical anglo american cigerettes now,,and they stink
    Alfred Kelberry: :)
    Wol Euler: oh yes, even as a fanatical non-smoker (which I no longer am) I liked the smell of Gauloises
    arabella Ella: no more citanes Mick?
    Wol Euler: Gitanes, yse, that was teh other brand.
    Mickorod Renard: no more,,and they have a ban in bars too
    Alfred Kelberry: wol, you started smoking?
    Wol Euler: gods no.
    Alfred Kelberry: oh, you're no longer "fanatic", ok :)
    Mickorod Renard: Gitanes is a word they use for the cigarettes,,but also for gypsies
    Mickorod Renard: they had something like'disc blue' too
    Wol Euler: Gauloises is the smell of my first year of university, I'd never smelled that before.
    Mickorod Renard: oh yes,,Gauloises
    Alfred Kelberry: i like places where a smoking area starts just next table to the non-smoking one :)
    arabella Ella: do they still exist Alfie?
    Alfred Kelberry: yep
    arabella Ella: in the states?
    Mickorod Renard: yikes
    Wol Euler: there was a very brief time when Lufthansa had smokers on the left of the aisle and nonsmokers on the right. So everyone sat next to a smoker!
    Wol Euler: that didnt last.
    arabella Ella: the only place i saw that recently was in spain
    Alfred Kelberry: wol :)
    Wol Euler: true, I was there.
    Mickorod Renard: but i much prefered night clubs that were thick with smoke and so forth
    arabella Ella: pubs will never be the same again
    Wol Euler: except that you have to burn your clothes the next day. I don't miss that
    Wol Euler: *had to
    Alfred Kelberry: haha, exactly wol :)
    arabella Ella: why not simply wash them wol?
    Mickorod Renard: yes, and have a good shower afterwards
    arabella Ella: i must go now good night everyone!
    Wol Euler: *night ara, sleep well
    Mickorod Renard: ok guys,,i better go too,,get some kip ,,work in the morning
    Wol Euler: bye mick, sleep well
    stevenaia Michinaga: bye Mic
    Wol Euler: I should go too. (sighs)
    stevenaia Michinaga: night Wol
    Mickorod Renard: byeeeeee
    Wol Euler: goodnight all, take care
    Wol Euler: likewise!
    stevenaia Michinaga: night
    Wol Euler: bye alf
    Alfred Kelberry: night feathers :)
    Alfred Kelberry: ok, i'm off as well
    stevenaia Michinaga: isn;t it late for you Alfred?
    stevenaia Michinaga: sleep well
    Alfred Kelberry: somewhat :)
    Alfred Kelberry: bye

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