2010.10.03 19:00 - Dreaming Up What Is

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Calvino Rabeni. The comments are by Calvino Rabeni.

    Calvino Rabeni: Good evening Mitzi
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Hi Calvino
    Calvino Rabeni: Well lets let our pixels get settled :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Ahhh ...
    Calvino Rabeni: (taking a few deep breaths...)
    Calvino Rabeni: How was it, traveling through cyberspace to get here?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Sorry, I'm multitasking ...
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I imagined that
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: By the fact that I was nodding out!
    Calvino Rabeni smiles
    Calvino Rabeni: Your avatar,yes ...?

    Calvino Rabeni: There's a cup of tea waiting patiently nearby for its first sip
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: here?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: or ... where?
    Calvino Rabeni: It'sjust to the right of the picture of the pavilion
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I'm sorry - I can't see it I dont know where the picture of a parvilion might be
    Calvino Rabeni: sorry I wasn't clear - it's framed in the screen of my laptop, and shows our avatars moving and emitting words, and to the right of that, near he keyboard, a cup of tea
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Ah! In real life!
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, ... hmm we do rememeber that one :) ?
    Calvino Rabeni: Do you recall lord of the rings?
    Calvino Rabeni: I never quite understood the basic myths involved
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Cal and Mitzi
    Calvino Rabeni: Specifically that ring thing
    Calvino Rabeni: Good evening Stevenaia :)

    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Tolkien made up his own version of mythology I think!
    Calvino Rabeni: How are you Stevenaia? I was meditating, Mitzi was I *think* multitasking, we hadn't started to chat yet
    Calvino Rabeni laughs
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Mitzi is b-a-a-a-a-ck!
    Calvino Rabeni: hehehe
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Hi Seve
    stevenaia Michinaga: I was just finishing and iChing reading
    stevenaia Michinaga: always refreshing
    Calvino Rabeni: AH, which hexagram?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Oh really? Which hexagram did you get?
    Calvino Rabeni: Eager aren't we :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: 55 and 27
    stevenaia Michinaga: had to look it up in my journal
    stevenaia Michinaga: w/ 3 changing.... yao
    Calvino Rabeni: Looks auspicious
    stevenaia Michinaga: described present situation with amazing accuracy
    Calvino Rabeni: The reason for things not being quite readn?
    Calvino Rabeni: *ready
    stevenaia Michinaga: the third yao was not changing
    Calvino Rabeni: Ok
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I often find a sense of amazing accuracy with the I Ching. But that could be due to confirmation bias.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: (one of the famous congitive errors).
    Calvino Rabeni: Isn't that its main principle?
    stevenaia Michinaga: I am fairly new at reading with much I don't understand, is very possible I only see alignments and positive references in the readings
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: isn't what it's main principle?
    Calvino Rabeni: Confirmation bias
    stevenaia Michinaga: Pila is offering assistance on a regular basis
    stevenaia Michinaga: I do tend to agree Cal,
    stevenaia Michinaga: or it would be read by an unbiased third party, like tarot
    stevenaia Michinaga: or second party
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Calvino - are you sayng that confirmation bias is why we perceive accuracy in I Ching readings in general?
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm saying it gets both ends of the subject / object line
    Calvino Rabeni: That is, showing the near end
    Calvino Rabeni: which is the subjective
    Calvino Rabeni: It's a projective effect
    Calvino Rabeni: it asks us to construct some meaning matching the world
    stevenaia Michinaga: or reflect upon it
    Calvino Rabeni: and then we construct it ...
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ummm hmmm ... yes.
    Calvino Rabeni: Steve's been thinking more about this I suppose than I, recently
    stevenaia Michinaga: the depth comes from how you reflect on it
    stevenaia Michinaga: and that comes from the parts of the reading
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, like a contemplation question - there is no information in the question itself
    Calvino Rabeni: like you can't dig an answer out of it alone

    The information is not in the answer, but in the questioning itself.


    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Paradise
    Paradise Tennant: hiya steve .. cal ..mitzi gtsy
    Paradise Tennant: blinks at cal :))
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, it can take a relatively static moment (like a sunday night) ask a question , iChing gives me a place to reflect on the question based on the parts of the reading
    Paradise Tennant: smiles at stave :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Nice way to put it
    stevenaia Michinaga: we are talking about my iching reading tonight, and in generalPAradise
    Paradise Tennant: i have been doing several readings a week .. sort of a creative thinking tools introduces new ideas into a situation
    Calvino Rabeni: somehow it reminds us of the latent possibilities of this particular saturday night
    Calvino Rabeni: or new perspectives
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: an imagination function - but embodied into what is happening
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Hello Paradise, I'm glad you are here.
    Calvino Rabeni seconds that
    stevenaia Michinaga: recently I have been looking at some recent readings and looked back on their insight
    Paradise Tennant: smiles at mitzi also glad you are here :)
    Calvino Rabeni: That's interesting, Steve
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Steve, I have a record of readings for various dilemmas in my life streching back about 18 years.
    Paradise Tennant: wow mitzi
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I'm consdering using this ias a structuring motif for when I write my memoris when I am an old lady.
    Paradise Tennant: smiles :)
    Paradise Tennant: do you see a pattern in the questions .. situations :) an evolution
    Paradise Tennant: interesting to go back and visit your mind's self .. use to keep a journal .. always find it amusing .. think I had a better sense of humor : back then ..more playful :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: :) nice... I had a moment of great uncertainty a few weeks ago, forgot what the reading said (until I re-read it) and it offered a sence of assuredness that eventually resulted
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Hmmm ... I would have to review them in depth ... I haven't rally done that .
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... When I have reviewed them piecemeal I was usually struck by an appropriateness of the responses.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: But that could be confirmation bias. Sigh. ...
    stevenaia Michinaga: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
    stevenaia Michinaga: perhaps that is something to be counted on (confirmation bias)
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm still thinking, confirmation bias is your friend, Mitzi
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: with the I Ching that is
    stevenaia Michinaga: here's a thoughtful line form the wiki page..... Confirmation biases contribute to overconfidence in personal beliefs and can maintain or strengthen beliefs in the face of contrary evidence. Hence they can lead to disastrous decisions, especially in organizational, military, political and social contexts.

    Calvino Rabeni: Right, but when its a projective technique, that's the *desired* effect
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Any contexts *NOT* mentioned in that list!
    stevenaia Michinaga: but it seems to make more sence in this context
    stevenaia Michinaga: nods to Cal
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Hm, Calvino, I feel you read my feelings ... Yes I feel confirmation bias is not my friend in that it leads me astray in my quest for truth. So, in what sense is it my friend ... like what Steve just mentioned?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, it shows you the depth in your own interiority
    stevenaia Michinaga: interiority... nice word
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: It does? I guess I see what you are saing ... (Mitzi ruminates)
    Paradise Tennant: smiles it is a great world .. should subsitute for reality :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I like thinking about that.
    Calvino Rabeni: What do you glean, Mitzi?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... but I don't think interiority can fully substitute for reality. I think there's a definite exterior-ity out there - however elusive its exact nature remains ...
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I glean the richness of my interiority and its value
    Paradise Tennant: smiles that is the puzzle
    Calvino Rabeni: Hmmm, I think, for me, the richer the interior, the richer the exterior - that the are intimately connected or different ends of the same event
    Paradise Tennant: smiles yes
    Calvino Rabeni: For instance a really good outwardly focused meditation opens up new interiors
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: wow. also smiles, yess.
    Calvino Rabeni: and vice versa
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm not *scared* of subjective richness, as if it would corrupt a quality grasp of exterior reality
    Calvino Rabeni: Although that's a good principle for intellectual hygiene I suppose
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I just like to make a clear distinction.
    Paradise Tennant: wonders if we are tubes with interior or exterior ends .. or maybe more like batteries .. the interior and exterior charge off of each other
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: However, Calvino, your point is well taken, and potetically expressed as well.
    Calvino Rabeni: The problem with clear distinctions ...

    Calvino Rabeni: ... is that they are usuall based on stereotyped patterns or ideals
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... is that they may sacrifice nuance for artificial clarity ...
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Calvino Rabeni: and introduce their own extreme "bias"
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... that they give us congitive relief from so many gray areas ... and are thus legitimately suspect.
    Calvino Rabeni: which might be useful if held lightly
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: aaahhh ... how to develop our skills for holding lightly ...
    Calvino Rabeni: that too Mitzi
    Calvino Rabeni: yes very good question mitzi
    Paradise Tennant: smiles and letting go .. surrender
    Calvino Rabeni: my first take on it is ... emotional flexibility
    Calvino Rabeni: when you ask people to try to pick up a new perspective, what happens? One thing is emotional reactivity
    Calvino Rabeni: LIke, for example, why not "take on" something for a short time
    Calvino Rabeni: or let go of it ..
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes mimizi, having attained something and figuring out the protocalls for showing others ... can be dificult
    Calvino Rabeni: For instance , the philosophical style of thinking
    Calvino Rabeni: could be "dropped" sometimes to favor more direct experience
    Calvino Rabeni: ... just "for a moment" :)
    Calvino Rabeni: it doesn't mean one becomes a primitive or animal for the rest of one's days
    Calvino Rabeni: Letting go of analysis while listening to music, e.g. proves it does no harm :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: When I have tried that, on rare occasions, I begin to feel kind of panicky ... as if my whole identity could be so arbitrary that I can take it off and put it on at will.
    Calvino Rabeni: To shift into multiple perspectives and ways of knowing
    Calvino Rabeni: in a more flexible way
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: But I approve of the idea ... I think it would be good for me to try it more deliverately now.
    Paradise Tennant: lol has the same thing with her hair .. :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Right Mitzy, that is the emotional reaction I was thinking of
    Paradise Tennant: use to do one new thing a day
    Calvino Rabeni: YES
    Calvino Rabeni: I did too ... for a long time
    Paradise Tennant: found it helps to prevent .. not sure of the term .. maybe calcification
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: good for neural plasticity and thus long life
    Paradise Tennant: easy too
    Calvino Rabeni: it wasn't to do smething new, but even more, to have it be *uncharacteristic*
    Calvino Rabeni: a very valuable practice / exercise
    Calvino Rabeni: to expand the sense of self and its possibilities
    Paradise Tennant: learn a new word ..try a new food .. walk home by different routes now with the web the possibilities are endless
    Calvino Rabeni: nods
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: yes
    Paradise Tennant: is hoping for continued neural plasticity
    stevenaia Michinaga: these can only enhance not diminish your identity
    Calvino Rabeni: Neural plasticity is a pretty neutral way to put it ... but in practice, there can be great emotional challenge to doing that practice
    Paradise Tennant: keep you fresh by stretching . you into the not you :)
    Calvino Rabeni: True Steve
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I'm thinking about the panicky feeling. It hurts to acknowledge that my dearly held style / views could be more arbitrary than I usually think of them as ...
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm thinking ... self definition is an ongoing life process
    Calvino Rabeni: but it looks different in the beginning of life perhaps
    Calvino Rabeni: compared to the later stages
    stevenaia Michinaga: if you build them on adaptability, there is no foundation shattering newness
    Calvino Rabeni: it's said, the second half of life is spent unlearning the first part
    Calvino Rabeni: adaptability - yes I like that approach Steve
    Calvino Rabeni: more of a day to day / moment to moment practice
    Calvino Rabeni: a flexible base
    Paradise Tennant: smiles and think bend like the grass :)
    Calvino Rabeni: and the flexible grass grows on the earth, which is stable and everpresent
    stevenaia Michinaga: smiles

    Paradise Tennant: lol which has prompted to me to think I should be hitting the hay :) eyes are getting heavy :)
    Calvino Rabeni: That was interesting as a metaphor - the grass and the earth as two different levels of self or consciousness
    stevenaia Michinaga: use the ground as quicksand to creates a broader wider base
    Calvino Rabeni: Time to trundle then :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: night Paradise
    Paradise Tennant: smiles yes trundling time
    Paradise Tennant: good nite steve .. cal mitzi ..as always a pleasure :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Sleep well :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: night cal and Mitzi
    Lucinda Lavender: hi all
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: By Paradise ....! (voice trails off...)
    Calvino Rabeni: Hi Cinda :)
    Lucinda Lavender: Cal...you look different...
    Lucinda Lavender: Like our outfit
    Calvino Rabeni: ty, it's for a little while to get a new feel
    Lucinda Lavender: nice to see you Mitzi
    Calvino Rabeni: I haven't "moved in"
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Hi Cinda, nice to see you too!
    Lucinda Lavender: got any stories?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Your new av has a stony skin texture - is he supposed to be one of those cool statues I saw photos of?
    Lucinda Lavender: I am wondering the same
    Calvino Rabeni: Actually it is a fur body of a gray siamese cat - you'd see it different if I put the litte ears on it
    Calvino Rabeni: But I liked the in-between-ness of it
    Lucinda Lavender: nice...
    Calvino Rabeni: from a distance it looks like "ash man"
    Lucinda Lavender: or stone or clay
    Lucinda Lavender: something natural
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Siamese cat!! Ha ha ...
    Lucinda Lavender: Cal did you stay at the time session on the art today?
    Calvino Rabeni: No, I had an interrupt
    Lucinda Lavender: thought I saw you then I did not any more
    Calvino Rabeni: did you?
    Lucinda Lavender: I was there...and unfortunately I had to speak from a restaurant...
    Lucinda Lavender: so I was a bit distracted
    Lucinda Lavender: I made one more photo today and accidentally put a broser menu bar on the top!
    Lucinda Lavender: browser
    Lucinda Lavender: I guess I had been moving the arrow over some choices and accidentally let go
    Lucinda Lavender: you know what I mean?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes I do :)
    Lucinda Lavender: ok:)
    Lucinda Lavender: good...a little hard to figure out at first...

    Lucinda Lavender: had any interesting dreams?
    Calvino Rabeni: Not that I remember ..
    Calvino Rabeni: but I was thinking about the importance of dreaming while awake
    Lucinda Lavender: ah
    Calvino Rabeni: I mean noticing the importance
    Lucinda Lavender: and in what way did notice it's importance?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... the traces run away from my grasp ... Yes, I know I've had some good ones recently ... but I cannot recall them now. at this exact moment.
    Calvino Rabeni: When I first got to the session tonight, and mitzi was multitasking ... I was settling in
    Calvino Rabeni: and that settling in involved meditating with a fair amount of dreaming
    Lucinda Lavender: yes...
    Lucinda Lavender: ummm
    Calvino Rabeni: as things got sorted and arranged and then became more fluid
    Calvino Rabeni: with the result of a whole shift in physical and mental state
    Lucinda Lavender: nodding
    Calvino Rabeni: from fragmentation to more unity
    Lucinda Lavender: have you ever felt in such a moment that all your cells were lining up?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ummmm hmmmmm!
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes, I can relate, Cinda
    Calvino Rabeni: not visualzing cells no, but do feel a coherent body sense of slower rhythm
    Lucinda Lavender: nodding
    Lucinda Lavender: was discussing and thinking about this today
    Calvino Rabeni: Also I am noticing how much it happens (or doesn't) during other normal activities
    Lucinda Lavender: hmmm
    Lucinda Lavender: maybe there is something going on with energy centers of the body...
    Calvino Rabeni: One memory I have from long ago, was learning to do it at the post office while waiting in line
    Lucinda Lavender: I experience it as almost like a rising body of water...
    Lucinda Lavender: :)))
    Calvino Rabeni: because there's really nothing else to do just then :)
    Lucinda Lavender: at the po
    Lucinda Lavender: :)
    Lucinda Lavender: right
    Calvino Rabeni: so might as well do some "healing",eh?
    Lucinda Lavender: when does this happen for you mitzi
    Lucinda Lavender: ?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: they are automatically aligning themselves ... when Yes, that's a good time to take advantage of ... then it's perfectly appropriate to be meditative.
    Lucinda Lavender: I was thinking about those moments when it feels like you have caught up with yourself...
    Lucinda Lavender: like suddenly there is enough time and your sitting in a pool of it
    Lucinda Lavender: you are not pushing
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: happens fo rme ... not often enough ... been kind of wound up lately. Early morning is a good time. Or late at night.
    Lucinda Lavender: trying to notice the potential of it during the day
    Lucinda Lavender: letting go of the perception that pushing is neccessary
    Lucinda Lavender: tho it is...
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I'm particularly vulnerable to being caught up in speediness, an old pattern ... fortunately I can sometimes taste eternity right through it anyway ... then that helps me calm down my senses.
    Lucinda Lavender: strange
    Lucinda Lavender: not yours strange...mine
    Lucinda Lavender: I push when I try to please others

    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes, me too.
    Calvino Rabeni: Pushing is necessary ... just not in the wrong places for the wrong reasons ...
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: But, I think I'm tryng to please ghosts.
    Calvino Rabeni: Pleasing ghosts ..oooooooo !
    Calvino Rabeni: About the speediness
    Calvino Rabeni: we all have that experience
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I will have aquote for you both in a minute ...
    Lucinda Lavender: I push when I see a certain look on peoples faces...I think
    Lucinda Lavender: one of displeasure
    Lucinda Lavender: something in me thinks it is time to fix them...
    Lucinda Lavender: sorry to say but I think it is the truth
    Calvino Rabeni: what sems to need fixing?
    Lucinda Lavender: really...the face is an ever changing thing
    Lucinda Lavender: their dissipointment
    Calvino Rabeni: Speediness is one of those emotional patterns like low-grade anxiety
    Lucinda Lavender: sometimes the environment changes speed I think...
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: OK here's a quote, from Maurice Nicoll: "Worrying is the wrong work of centres. It is always useless. It is a form of identifying. It is a continual mixing up of negative imagination with a few facts and so makes only wrong connections in centres. It is a sort of lying, among the many other kinds of laying that go on in us and mess up the centers. "
    Calvino Rabeni: which seems to maintain itself even without triggers and contacts with what is going on outside
    Calvino Rabeni: Hmmm
    Calvino Rabeni: Thats a bit derogatory, on the face of it ...
    Calvino Rabeni: but under that, it asks some interesting questions
    Calvino Rabeni: It might work better without the guilt trip?
    Calvino Rabeni: The underlying question is - what would the "right work of centres" be, in regards worrying?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: What struck me most in this quote was the part about mixing up a few facts with negative imagination ... Aaargh! How true. For myself, I've worked on this a lot ... but it seems to be a very common human thing - to take a small it of data and project a whole reality based on that
    Calvino Rabeni: But, mitzi, the imagination has something to say as a message
    Calvino Rabeni: It's about in part, transforming emotions
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: OK, here comes another quote in a minute.
    Calvino Rabeni: as I see it the issue is , the message is not being listened to in the proper way
    Lucinda Lavender: :)
    Lucinda Lavender: interesting
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: The emotional centre is sometimes in the Work compared with an uncontrolled rogue elephant with two controlled elepahnts on either side of it - namedly the intellectual centre and the moving centre
    Calvino Rabeni: the reality projection is simply a side effect of something deeper
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, there was a book published recently using that metaphor
    Calvino Rabeni: and pitched to a general / business readership
    Calvino Rabeni: It's called "Switch: How to Change Things when Change is Hard"
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... the key part of the phrase is *NEGATIVE* imagination ... not really a higher function
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: The imagination certainly has a wonderful function - but imagining all kinds of weird stuff about what others are thinking about us is not really one of its fuller functions.
    Calvino Rabeni: My hunch is to deconstruct that notion of "negative" would also lead to the place where the worry itself is formed
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Nicoll says it originates in "false personality"
    Calvino Rabeni: It's also my hunch that packaging the concept up and externalizing it in a word "negative" doesn't really go anywhere different with it
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Not fully following that last sentence, Calvino, can you rephrsae for me?
    Lucinda Lavender: is it any kind of thought that creates the sense of separation?

    I didn't respond in session -- but was thinking "NO! Those are thoughts of separation, and there are thoughts that move toward unity also -- those are thoughts of what IS."

    Calvino Rabeni: Basically, you take an emotional phenomenon, and label it "negative" and hope to carry it away somewhere using that handle, or dismiss it, but it doesn't work
    Calvino Rabeni: because it's the same perspective that created it to begin with

    Calvino Rabeni: I'm saying it would be better to penetrate it more directly
    Calvino Rabeni: if the idea is insight or even transformation
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Sure ... but first you have to notice that you are in a state that is not productive or pleasant - then there's a reason to look deeper ...
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Often, it feels like worrying is reasonable or justified.
    Calvino Rabeni: To me those commentaries need sorting out .. they hint at some possibilities... but stand in an artifical conceptual or intellectual place
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, but, have you ever noticed, if someone is worrying, then to say "stop it, that's silly" doesn't necessarily work too well
    Calvino Rabeni: It's subtle though
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: No. What worked for me was to ask someone what they were thinking when I noticed I was imagining they were thinking something negative about me.
    Calvino Rabeni: To have the intellectual center dictate, is I think, wrong work of centers
    Calvino Rabeni: I think it's natural function is more of one of steering
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Each time I found out they were caught up in an internal worry of their own that had nothing to do with me. What a revelation!
    Calvino Rabeni: as the elephant metaphor sort of suggests
    Lucinda Lavender: I see what you are saying Mitzi
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, reality check
    Calvino Rabeni: Could that be applied to cases where the worry has no obvious external association?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: The elephant metaaphor goes on to say that bringing two other elephants alongside the rogue elephant keeps it under control. That is, the mind and body together can ground out the ranging elephant of the emotional center.
    Calvino Rabeni: That still sounds like a power struggle
    Calvino Rabeni: the elephant will win
    Calvino Rabeni: in my view a better notion is unification, seeing inside the mind of the elephant
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes, a long term strategy.
    Calvino Rabeni: these functions aren't separate
    Calvino Rabeni: as seen by the way the models get jimmied around a bit
    Lucinda Lavender: ll is remembering the idea that the 3 yearold is learning to think and feel at the same time
    Calvino Rabeni: like there are centers within centers
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: No, not necessarily ("the rogue elephant will win")
    Calvino Rabeni: which is a way of saying they are connected
    Calvino Rabeni: but not really an accurate structural model
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, feelings and thoughts are twins
    Calvino Rabeni: one doesn't occur without the other
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Well I'm not particularly interested in fighting for this metaphor ...
    Calvino Rabeni: And if it appears to be so, there is some fragmentation
    Calvino Rabeni: But it's a good metaphor Mitzi :)
    Calvino Rabeni: However, I am interested in the actual experience
    Calvino Rabeni: say of speediness
    Calvino Rabeni: and what we do with it
    Lucinda Lavender: feels like we surf it
    Lucinda Lavender: new info
    Calvino Rabeni: yes I get that
    Calvino Rabeni: sometimes surfing it gives ability to change or direct it
    Calvino Rabeni: like the wave starts following the surfer
    Lucinda Lavender: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: taking him/her where he wants to go
    Lucinda Lavender: wondering how randomness in the information that we get is changing our capcities
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Well, I was struggling with speediness this morning. I felt buzzy and empty. So I tuned into some feeling aspects and bodysensed my chest area and I felt soothed and more integrated.
    Calvino Rabeni: yes, or fostering a "speediness" experience

    Lucinda Lavender: heard William Gibson(Neuromancer) speaking on the radio about this
    Calvino Rabeni: that helps me too, mitzi... however I've found it not useful to have the attitude of "doing it to calm down" as a goal
    Calvino Rabeni: We are getting to be experienced computer users
    Calvino Rabeni: with lots of habits -
    Calvino Rabeni: some of which lead to fragmentation and speediness
    Lucinda Lavender: these virtual worlds are seeming more and more real
    Calvino Rabeni: yes they tend to go in that direction
    Calvino Rabeni: the question is, as these new worlds are being constructed, what experiential habits are becoming automatic in us?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: So, calvino, what attitude works better for you?
    Lucinda Lavender: so back to the other...calming is not headed toward a deeper understanding?
    Calvino Rabeni: the one that works best for me is - radical acceptance of what is, exactly as it is
    Calvino Rabeni: as a starting point
    Lucinda Lavender: ok:)
    Calvino Rabeni: so I'm not thinking - gee I wish I wasn't speedy
    Calvino Rabeni: but like - wow, what is the full nature of this feeling in depth
    Calvino Rabeni: what is in it, under it, what are its potentials for movement, what is its particular Tao
    Calvino Rabeni: and bless it
    Lucinda Lavender: ah
    Lucinda Lavender: bless the whole thing
    Calvino Rabeni: its a non egoic orientation
    Calvino Rabeni: yes bless the whole thing
    Calvino Rabeni: not judge it on the basis of how "I" think it is supposed to be working
    Calvino Rabeni: That's how to get onto the wave
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: would you call that radical non-dualism, or zen, or what?
    Calvino Rabeni: and then it seems to go along with a more purified intention
    Calvino Rabeni: A label?
    Calvino Rabeni: (heavens)
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Lucinda Lavender: bless the anxiety, the controlling, the effort we throw at the whole thing...
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Calvino Rabeni: bless it all
    Calvino Rabeni: maybe even intensify it
    Calvino Rabeni: Remember that came up at some previous session ... not sure I remember the details
    Calvino Rabeni: not trying to chain the elephant
    Calvino Rabeni: or oppose it
    Calvino Rabeni: Why is it, that people feel like in a continual battle for control ... not just with life, but with all the "rogue"parts within themselves?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Because they don't enjoy what they are feeling and wish to change it?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: It's a wonderful idea ... can you really do this? How do you move your attention around internally to get to that position?
    Calvino Rabeni: That's a good question mitzi
    Calvino Rabeni: part of the answer is it takes lots of basic body sensing to open the interior senses
    Calvino Rabeni: and part of it is having some reservior of free attention, or "space"
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: "all beings desire to be happy and free of suffering" THis is a good statement that helps us always understand the undelryign motivationof others for just about any action ... it comes back to this.
    Calvino Rabeni: Sure mitzi but they don't enjoy that either
    Lucinda Lavender: and perhaps when a shutting down occurrs then we are trying to get back to the heavenly place
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Well I tink so, we are just using a flywed approach that doesn't get us there
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: Actually I don't believe all beings desire to be free of suffering
    Calvino Rabeni: I think that's an external judgment
    Lucinda Lavender: so we see the flaws...and bless them
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Well! What would you say instead?
    Calvino Rabeni: If you open up the suffering, I think it can be discovered to have its own reason for being

    Calvino Rabeni: What is suffering, specifically?
    Calvino Rabeni: I'd say it is a lot about a divided mind
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Here's a functional definition - whatever a being labels as undesirable and attempts to move away from.
    Calvino Rabeni: OK, but the part being moved away from is also a different part of the same being
    Calvino Rabeni: so trying to move away from oneself
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes, yet that seems a little abstract somehow ... experientially it probably doesn't feel that way
    Calvino Rabeni: So blessing and acceptance can dissolve those labels
    Calvino Rabeni: have you noticed, the biggest part of suffering isn't what it really is, but the secondary self judgments laid on top of it
    Calvino Rabeni: and I think it's quite a bit cultural
    Calvino Rabeni: our culture says everyone is supposed to be happy
    Calvino Rabeni: and that happiness is what we are here for
    Lucinda Lavender: and smart
    Calvino Rabeni: right
    Calvino Rabeni: so if there's suffering, then we take it as a flaw in the self, and heap on a little extra shame, and hide it, isolating ourself from others
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I agree about the secondary self judgments
    Calvino Rabeni: You know - "I must be a bad person, god is punishing me" - or some secular version of that
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes, it seems to be an extremely common inernal phonemenon
    Calvino Rabeni: The word "ruth" has passed from our vocabulary
    Calvino Rabeni: but it used to be there
    Calvino Rabeni: showing a shift in cultural attitudes about suffering
    Calvino Rabeni: and making suffering seem a lot more subjective than it is
    Lucinda Lavender: what is ruth?
    Calvino Rabeni: poignant feeling of the suffering of others
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: only existing in the negative as in "ruthless"?
    Calvino Rabeni: right
    Calvino Rabeni: it is the positive of ruthless
    Calvino Rabeni: the underlying real definition of it
    Lucinda Lavender: interesting
    Calvino Rabeni: ruthless means one can hurt others and not feel a thing
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: fascinating! I've always vaguely wondered about that word
    Calvino Rabeni: sadly ... people have learned to be ruthless with themselves
    Calvino Rabeni: an empathetic awareness of the suffering of others ... ability to share in it ... and let it be part of the "between us/ around us" space
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: so much violence in our world. Our planet is filled with violence and fear. No wonder we are so screwed up.
    Calvino Rabeni: that is, intersubjective
    Calvino Rabeni: yes, and internalized also
    Lucinda Lavender: well, this has been an enlightening discussion
    Lucinda Lavender: I think need to go and sleep in the realm of ruth
    Calvino Rabeni: How to have "ruth" with oneself
    Calvino Rabeni: as a healing of suffering
    Calvino Rabeni: rather than affixing judments and labels like "that's a negative emotion"
    Calvino Rabeni: more like a blessing instead ?
    Calvino Rabeni: Anyway, that's something I've found it helps to consider
    Lucinda Lavender: May ruth be with you...:)
    Calvino Rabeni: and how to "look into" and deconnstruct those states like speediness :)
    Calvino Rabeni: hehe
    Lucinda Lavender: nodding
    Lucinda Lavender: thank you all...
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm usually surprised when practicing it
    Calvino Rabeni: for example, fatigue
    Calvino Rabeni: when I dont' "fight" fatigue, but go inside it
    Calvino Rabeni: I usually find myself in a pleasant or even blissful state
    Calvino Rabeni: with surprising amount of energy
    Calvino Rabeni: leading me to suspect the fatigue wasn't a lack of energy
    Calvino Rabeni: just a blocking of it
    Calvino Rabeni: tiredness can be so many things
    Calvino Rabeni: often its from struggling against the elephant
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye Lucinda, thanks for sitting in :)

    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Testing
    Calvino Rabeni: Did you miss some lines?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I made two comments to Cinda that did not show up in my chat window.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Now it's back. Odd.
    Calvino Rabeni: Weird. Well do you want to say them again for completeness?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: No I;m too fatigued ... plus she's not here anymore. Nothing profound anyway.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Well, I think I'll fly away, Calvino. Thanks for the energetic discussion tongith.
    Calvino Rabeni: Likewise Mitzi
    Calvino Rabeni: Thanks as always - see you soon :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye <3

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