2010.10.05 07:00 - Lies and Damned Lies

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Riddle Sideways. The comments are by Riddle Sideways.  Who holds back opinions of Immanuel Kant.  Well, maybe I will just state that he possibly did not live in my real world.

    Bruce, Yaku and I are all here before the starting bell.  How strange is that.  Even stranger is that the topoc-of-da-day gets started before 10 minutes of the hour.

    Riddle Sideways: good morning, bruce
    Bruce Mowbray: Good morning, Riddle.
    Bruce Mowbray: Ewan requested that I be substitute guardian for him - for this session.


    Riddle Sideways: brb, afk for cof-a-cuppee
    Bruce Mowbray: Would it be best to wait until the top of the hour, or should I claim it right now?
    Bruce Mowbray: ok -- I will also get some RL coffee. brb.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: good morning guys
    Riddle Sideways: back, afternoon yak
    Bruce Mowbray: Good morning, Yaku -- just returned from getting Rl coffee ;-)
    Riddle Sideways: so did I
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hehe, guess what i just brought with me :)
    Bruce Mowbray: What is that, Yaku?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: coffee :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: but it got a bad taste
    Riddle Sideways: good 3 cuppa all around
    Riddle Sideways: I can take the logger
    Yakuzza Lethecus: there is a new, "spültischamatur" and if you don´t let water flow through it the water gains plastic taste

    [ed. note:  Please tell me how to fix all the nice trema and umlaut from Yak'skeyboard.  It happens every week.  The chat log is fine, but the carry over into the wiki messes up his speaking}

    Yakuzza Lethecus: so does the coffee and this one wasn´t cooked by me and the person who cooked it doesn´t taste this...
          Bertram Jacobus: hy folks ;-)
          Yakuzza Lethecus: hi bert :)
          Riddle Sideways: morning Bert
          Bertram Jacobus: afternoon here ... :-)
          Yakuzza Lethecus: also afternoon for him :)
          Bruce Mowbray: Good morning, (afternoon) Bert.
          Bertram Jacobus: good morning riddle and bruce
          Bertram Jacobus: good afternoon yaku
    Bertram Jacobus: not also, only :o)
    Bruce Mowbray: Can you brew some new coffee, Yaku?
    Riddle Sideways: it is a nice gesture to make a persons favorite thing for them
    Riddle Sideways: but, they might not get it correct
        Enter our topic.  Good people that mean well, but screw it up!  :)
    Bertram Jacobus: yess
    Riddle Sideways: what can you say then....
    Bertram Jacobus: coffee
    Bertram Jacobus: i should have one
    Bertram Jacobus: lol
    Bertram Jacobus: one can say what ever one wants i guess
    Bertram Jacobus: and sometimes even being silent is possible
    Riddle Sideways: but don't want to hurt their feelings
    Yakuzza Lethecus: brb
    Riddle Sideways thinks yak just went to make new coffee
    Bertram Jacobus: so you can say ty or be silent or you know how to ask for another variation of the gift etc etc - depends on the situation
    Riddle Sideways: and carefully worded sentiments, like "let me show you how I like it"
    Bruce Mowbray: Or, you could say something like, "WOW! This coffee is AMAZING!"
    Riddle Sideways: or "I grind the coffee beans being using"
    Riddle Sideways: AMAZING!!!! can always sound like a good thing

    Bertram Jacobus: i have a very good friend who always makes a terrible coffee (!) :-)
    Riddle Sideways: and maybe mean this is funny tasting
    Bruce Mowbray: yeppers, It's a word like "interesting" -- many possible meanings.
    Riddle Sideways: I have a mom who always makes terrible coffee
    Bertram Jacobus: but he likes it that way. i told him, that i don´t like it - he accepted and i drink it - bah :o)
    Bertram Jacobus: and we laugh about it :o)
    Bruce Mowbray: Do gifts from friends provoke "polite lying" from us ? and if so, I wonder why.
    Bertram Jacobus: sometimes that helps
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    Bertram Jacobus: isn´t it obvious ? that hurting is not better then nice lies ?
    Bruce Mowbray: Immanuel Kant addressed this very question in his Critique of Pure Reason.
    Bruce Mowbray: He said we should not lie - - - that but we should be guided by the principle that others are always to be treated as "ends" in themselves - never as "means" to an end.
    Bertram Jacobus: i think, it´´s not the lie or the so called "truth" which counts but the feeling everybody has - in the short as well in the long run. must one be wise for it ? i think, for sure it´s nice, when we don´t need many lies ...

    Bertram Jacobus: yes. my example is always : when a nzi had asked : did you see a jew running by ? what would we answer ? (!) - i think, we all know ...
    Bertram Jacobus: nazi*
    Bertram Jacobus: we would lie !
    Bertram Jacobus: and that would be good
    Bertram Jacobus: see ?
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I agree, Bert.
    Bertram Jacobus: that should show us or make us able to see the principle i find ...
    Bruce Mowbray: It is also sometimes necessary to act contrary to what the principle says in order to fulfill the principle in the longer run.
    Bertram Jacobus: a teacher once said : always help, never harm. THAT is right to me - (always:) finally
    Bertram Jacobus: yes. but we could discuss what "principle" may mean - (not that i would like to do that now lol sry) :o)

    Principle vs. RL...   see Yaku's comments below

    Riddle Sideways: so if the truth would harm. it is better to lie
    Bertram Jacobus: yes riddle. i would say so, in general. but sometimes such questions have a really wide and long range - so not always easy to decide, but : our conscience may help us in such situations ...
    Bertram Jacobus: and our motivation
    Bertram Jacobus: also always a very nice angle for choosing the right means ...
    Bruce Mowbray: I feel that there are "larger" principles that operate in human relations -- larger than verbal communication about a "small" thing - like whether the coffee tastes good.
    Bertram Jacobus: anyway we always try to do our best - again : finally ...
    Riddle Sideways: can we surmize how Kant would answer your "did you see a jew run by" query
    Bertram Jacobus: would be intersting !
    Bertram Jacobus: but i can´t. don´t know him good enough ...
    Bruce Mowbray: Kant would say that we should not lie -- but he's supposing that all persons involved are "rational" creatures. . . and the Nazi might not qualify as "rational" for Kant.
    Bruce Mowbray: but this becomes a slippery slope.
    Bertram Jacobus: hehe. nice answer bruce
    Riddle Sideways: interesting, answer
    Riddle Sideways: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: All I need to do is call my opponents "non-rational" and THEN what?
    Bruce Mowbray: "Always act as if your behavior could be a universal maxim for all humans. . . " (or something like that).
    Bertram Jacobus: hehe. from the few information i have about that, i would say, kant was wrong with that
    Bruce Mowbray: so would I!!
    Bertram Jacobus: with that "always say the truth" i meant
    Bruce Mowbray: I am not quoting him well, though.

    Bertram Jacobus: but may be, he had relativated that, may be with that idea, that the being always should be the end and not the mean
    Bruce Mowbray: yes, I understand you, Bert. . . I feel there are larger principles working in our relationships than merely being verbally honest all the time.
    Bertram Jacobus: yes, i agree : beyond the words , there are ... hughe things , may be , unexpressable ...

    Bruce Mowbray: Suppose I want to build a beautiful garden. . .
    Bruce Mowbray: but in order to do so, I first need to tear up what is there now. . .
    Bruce Mowbray: so I really make a BIG MESS of that area. . .
    Bruce Mowbray: but eventually build a beautiful garden. . .
    Bruce Mowbray: was the BIG MESS a "valid means" to getting to the "end" of beauty?
    Riddle Sideways: during the messy part, put up a sign saying "ART"
    Bertram Jacobus: yes. i saw what you meant already ... ;-)
    Bruce Mowbray: ha ha ha!
    Bertram Jacobus: lol riddle :o))
    Bertram Jacobus: great idea ! :-))
    Bruce Mowbray: and perhaps an even LARGER frame/sign indicating that all of life is "Art."
    Bertram Jacobus: hehe. yes. also that ... :-)
          Bruce Mowbray: How's your coffee, Yaku?
         Bertram Jacobus: mine is empty already again (!)
          Riddle Sideways: mine is empty too
    Bruce Mowbray: Perhaps global communications requires new rules for morality/ethics. . .
          Riddle Sideways: I wonder how difficult kant's daily life must have been
    Bruce Mowbray: The "old rules" were largely tribal -- It was all right to treat someone OUTSIDE your tribe (nation????) unethically.
         Riddle Sideways: the internal debate of whether to say "Good Morning" to somebody
    Bruce Mowbray: but with global relationships, the definition of "outsider" changes radically.
    Riddle Sideways: global village
         Bertram Jacobus: yes riddle : sounds really complicated ! ;-)
    Bruce Mowbray: yes. global village.
    Bertram Jacobus: but / and bruce : the religions already always said that we should be friendly with everybody i guess - for example jesus : love your (even) enemies ... and so on ...
         Bruce Mowbray: and regarding the internal question of whether to cay "Good morning," I must also consider myself: If I do not WANT to say that, then I think I should not. . . BUT, if I DO want to say that. . . then I should.
    Bruce Mowbray: Jesus was a profound visionary. . .
    Bertram Jacobus: my will is not my highest adviser i think ... hm
    Bruce Mowbray: agrees with Bert - - but also feels it's important to be "true" to one's self.
    Bertram Jacobus: yes. here i agree again too :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: with that
          Bruce Mowbray: Maybe -- just to THINK the "Good morning" to others would be enough, butonly if one genuinely feels that sentiment.
    Riddle Sideways: funny, religions always teach loving everybody, then go to war with G-d on their side (only?)
    Bruce Mowbray: but only*
    Bruce Mowbray: yes, there seems an enormous contradiction between what is taught and what is practiced.
    Bertram Jacobus: i wouldn´t call that really religious riddle ... many of those things which happen - i think , we know, feel a bit what is wrong and what is right
    Riddle Sideways: now with global village, we don't know which other we are talking with
    Riddle Sideways: so we are good to all
    Bertram Jacobus: it´s a process. it´s happening

    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, to both Riddle and Bert. I consider the Four Immeasurables, for example, to be "primes" -- factors that are not reducable to lower terms.
    Bruce Mowbray: Among the Four, Equanimity --- would be a "prime" for human interaction.
    Bertram Jacobus: i agree again. and like to add : may be even all is illusion - but i don´t know that (yet?) ...
          Bruce Mowbray: RL phone call --- brbr.
    Bertram Jacobus: and that wouldn´t change the ethics i think. but make things lighter ...
         Bruce Mowbray: Got a friend who needs transportation --- the same fellow I took to New York last                   week. . . So I must leave to help him now.
         Bruce Mowbray: THANKS, folks, and may all have a happy day...
         Riddle Sideways: ok, bye bruce
         Bertram Jacobus: ok bruce - have a nice time ! +wave* ... :-)
         Bruce Mowbray: Bye for now.
    Riddle Sideways: this is a hard conversation
             Bertram Jacobus: may i ask what the "PaBsandbox" group is riddle ? :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: really ? hard ? in which way ?
    Riddle Sideways: each sentence needs to be retyped and more corrected before send
    Bertram Jacobus: oh. why is that ?
             Riddle Sideways: hmmmm, I can not see my own profile
             Riddle Sideways: it is blank to me
             Riddle Sideways: I seem to remember that PaBsandbox was a group Storm set up to play building                     things in a spare region
    Bertram Jacobus: oh (again) - so let´s make all a bit lighter ? :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: i see ...
             Riddle Sideways: ummmm, can you read my profile
             Bertram Jacobus: yes
             Bertram Jacobus: but i see only groups there - think, you hadn´t put anything else there - is that so ? :-)
        Riddle Sideways: seems (like life) I can not see myself as others see me
             Riddle Sideways: a month ago I had 7 groups there
         Bertram Jacobus: hehe. but that can come closer ... more similar, can even drop (!) ;-)
             Bertram Jacobus: i see still 5
             Riddle Sideways: ok, enough of that
    Bertram Jacobus: okay - i think, i´ll log off , may be take a walk outside ...
    Riddle Sideways: sorry, I can not do Kant
    Bertram Jacobus: thanks very much for the talk ...
    Riddle Sideways: very much/well
    Bertram Jacobus: hey ! me not either ! ;-)
    Riddle Sideways: hey !
    Bertram Jacobus: so have a nice time plz and may all beings be happy plz (!) ... :-)
    Riddle Sideways: ok, have the walk
    Bertram Jacobus: ty again ... *wave*
    Riddle Sideways: take a dog or child
    Riddle Sideways: makes the walk most interesting
    Bertram Jacobus: lol - i´ll do it alone ...
    Yakuzza Lethecus: take care bert
    Bertram Jacobus: ty yaku

    After so time of silence, I started IM with Yak  He gave permission for the following section of the IM to be included into the log.

    [07:52] Riddle Sideways: you should have joined in
    [07:52] Riddle Sideways: you know more about these philosopical things
    [07:52] Riddle Sideways: I can't even spell them
    [07:53] Yakuzza Lethecus: i wasn´t there by that time even tho that berts example exists by kant
    [07:53] Yakuzza Lethecus: but with a murderer case
    [07:53] Yakuzza Lethecus: since there were only protonazi´s around by that time
    [07:53] Yakuzza Lethecus: and yes, he would have told the murderer where the victim was, actually :P
    [07:58] Riddle Sideways: your murderer comments should be in the main chat
    [07:59] Yakuzza Lethecus: i wasn´t at the computer by that time
    [07:59] Yakuzza Lethecus: when i kept up reading i didn´t even see bruce leaving

    Riddle Sideways: so not telling lie is loftier then harming?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: in the wikipedia is kant´s answer to the murderer(nazi) case written:
    Yakuzza Lethecus: Kant denied that such an inference indicates any weakness in his premises: not lying to the murderer is required because moral actions do not derive their worth from the expected consequences. He claimed that because lying to the murderer would treat him as a mere means to another end, the lie denies the rationality of another person, and therefore denies the possibility of there being free rational action at all. This lie results in a contradiction in conceivability and therefore the lie is in conflict with duty.
    Riddle Sideways: that is a lot to think thought while somebody has just asked you a quick question
    Riddle Sideways: murderer would have given up and gone away
    Riddle Sideways: which might be the better answer
    Riddle Sideways: "don't ask that person what time it is. He takes toooo long to answer"

    Yakuzza Lethecus: the anekdotes of kant say that he was a clock in himself :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: he never left königsberg and had a very fixed timely routines
    Riddle Sideways: when each and every activity has to be debated, judged, rated, etc. it is best not to allow new expericnces in
    Riddle Sideways: unknown variables would cripple

          Riddle Sideways: wb, Bruce
         Yakuzza Lethecus: wb bruce
         Bruce Mowbray: TY! A friend's car broke down in the town 5 miles from my farm --- needed to run into town and rescue him.
         Riddle Sideways: at least the wispy cloud is named bruce
         Bruce Mowbray: Am I not yet rezzed on your machine?
         Bruce Mowbray: I seem to me fine on my own computer.
         Yakuzza Lethecus: nope
         Yakuzza Lethecus: ah there you go
          Riddle Sideways: ah yes, there you are
    Bruce Mowbray: So, have you folks solved the "problem" of "means" and "ends" in human relations?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: whereever you go, there you are
    Yakuzza Lethecus: actually we did reopen the murder case :)
    Riddle Sideways: me? oh no
    Yakuzza Lethecus: solved, no
    Bruce Mowbray: Ha!
    Bruce Mowbray: I was fantacizing what it would be like if I treated TIME as an "end in itself" instead of a "means" to other ends.
    Riddle Sideways: not sure which one would be the end
    Riddle Sideways: if this one is defined "end"
    Riddle Sideways: what is that next one
    Bruce Mowbray: - - - every moment and everything in that moment: an End in Itself.
    Riddle Sideways: sorry, I degress
    Bruce Mowbray: That's oK -- Please do digress. . .
    Yakuzza Lethecus: did either one of you do some homework for the friday sessions ?
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I do the homework every week.
    Riddle Sideways: I have been doing the exercises but not the homework reports
    Bruce Mowbray: (If you' are referring to the Time Sessions.)
    Bruce Mowbray: There is much GROWTH for me with that group. . .
    Bruce Mowbray: This week, for example, I have discovered how profoundly I TRUST time.
    Bruce Mowbray: Perhaps a better wy to put that might be, "How profoundly I trust the processes that occur within time -- or that Time presents to me as appearances."

    Yakuzza Lethecus: i think that i want to be too rational and feeling on the slippery slope on irrationality here often makes it hard for me to try out while i like other ppl´s contributions even tho that i don´t udnerstand everything, it just feels good to me that other ppl are actually able to contribute
    Yakuzza Lethecus: even tho that i´ve never been judged i dislike putting my uncertain thoughts in written words
    Riddle Sideways: yes, I undestand Yak and am probably not contributing reports for the same reasons
    Bruce Mowbray: You are making a valuable contribution right NOW -- by waying these things about yourself.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: problably the biggest issue to drop
    Bruce Mowbray: saying*
    Riddle Sideways: we don't judge here,
    Riddle Sideways: but, my reports would be pretty radical
    Bruce Mowbray: also -- I'm not clear what "rational" means - - - Rationality is itself a slippery slope.
    Riddle Sideways: most of my reports would have been along the lines of "well duh, have been doing that for years"
    Bruce Mowbray: So -- please do not worry about not being "rational" --- There is a W-I-D-E spectrum here -- and non-judgmental, too.
    Riddle Sideways: we should both write and publish our reports
    Bruce Mowbray: I felt exactly the same way, Riddle. . .
    Riddle Sideways: hang what "they" might think
    Bruce Mowbray: but there is a freshness to Pema's approach.
    Bruce Mowbray: I value the exercises very much.
    Riddle Sideways: personally, I want/need to hear Yaks point of view
    Bruce Mowbray: When I REALLY DO the homework, there is much growth in it for me.
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I very much want to hear Yaku's thoughts and feelings. . .
    Bruce Mowbray: always have wanted to hear them.
    Bruce Mowbray sometimes feels guilty and self-conscious for perhaps talking too much -- not allowing others to get their words in edge-wise.
    Bruce Mowbray sits on hands for a few moments.
    Riddle Sideways: e.g. a 15min gong goes off. I focus on Presence. Well there it is again
    Riddle Sideways: seems I already was there
    Riddle Sideways: but, I did not write a report saying that

    [ummm, no commentary on the above]
    Yakuzza Lethecus: the sun comes through
    Riddle Sideways: good
    Yakuzza Lethecus: raining clouds and rain are still there
    Bruce Mowbray: amazing, isn't it?!
    Riddle Sideways: here comes the sun, da da da dum
    Bruce Mowbray: rainbows....?
         Riddle Sideways: well folks I need to go
         Bruce Mowbray: Thank you, Riddle.
         Bruce Mowbray: Have a beauty-filled day.
         Riddle Sideways: thank you all
         Yakuzza Lethecus: take care riddle
    Bruce Mowbray: I am sending you an IM, Yaku.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: darn the picture isn´t well :8
    Yakuzza Lethecus: :(
    Yakuzza Lethecus: http://www.flickr.com/photos/yakuzza_lethecus/
    Yakuzza Lethecus: the last 2 pictures
    Yakuzza Lethecus: actually the first 2 :P
    Bruce Mowbray: OK -- I will check them out now....
    Bruce Mowbray: OH MY! Thjose are beautiful, Yaku!
    Bruce Mowbray: Is that where you live????
    Yakuzza Lethecus: yes
    Bruce Mowbray: I am checking out the album titled "Balve."
    Yakuzza Lethecus: making pictures against the light isn´t too well with my cheap camera
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    Bruce Mowbray: Is Balve your town?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: yes
    Bruce Mowbray: Oh ----! SO BEAUTIFUL!
    Bruce Mowbray: but I'm a bit confused....
    Bruce Mowbray: I thought you lived in Holland -- and I also thought there were no hills in Holland.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hehe, i live in germany
    Yakuzza Lethecus: never anywhere else
    Bruce Mowbray: Ohhhh! I wonder how I got the idea that you lived in The Netherlands. . .
    Bruce Mowbray: crazy me!
    Yakuzza Lethecus: darren is dutch,piet, barcelona and 1-2 others
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, Barcalona is the same as Adoro, you know.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: jep
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    Bruce Mowbray: just as Yaku = Sartre.
    Bruce Mowbray: But actually, maybe not. Since the different avis can represent different parts of yourself.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: not for me
    Yakuzza Lethecus: yakuzza is my default name
    Bruce Mowbray: almost as if those parts were different persons. . . But not for you, ok.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: sartre placebo was supposed to indicate philosophical interest while being a placebo :P
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: take care you both
    Bruce Mowbray: actually, I need to do some WWW things for a friend who has just posted a new website.
    Bruce Mowbray: So I need to be going, also.

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