2010.10.05 13:00 - Trusting Basic Goodness

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Bruce Mowbray. The comments are by Bruce Mowbray.

    Mysterious "Stranger" and SL Inventories

    Bruce Mowbray: Hello, Qt.
    Qt Core: Hi Bruce
    Bruce Mowbray: How's life in Italia today?
    Qt Core: we got heavy rain in the north, some sun just before sunset
    Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm . . . Do you remember Aphrodite? She just flew to Italy yesterday.
    Bruce Mowbray: She'll be in Umbria.
    Qt Core: yes she is going in center Italy, haven't seen the meteo for that area
    Bruce Mowbray: I know that she planned to do some serious hiking.
    Bruce Mowbray: She even packed two walking sticks and a knee brace.
    Bruce Mowbray: Hello, Tallin.
    Tallin Dezno: please look at my titler ... ;-)
    Bruce Mowbray: Ahhhh! A familiar face! - errrr, a familiar NAME!
    Bruce Mowbray: Then I don't need to ask if you've been here before....?
    Qt Core: Hi Tallin :)
    Tallin Dezno: hehe - yes - sry - a little bit incognito - for others ...
    Bruce Mowbray: cool. We'll keep it between ourselves.
    Qt Core: Hi Hana
    Hana Furlough: Hi Bruce, QT, Tallin
    Bruce Mowbray: Welcome, Hana. Good to see you again.
    Hana Furlough: likewise :)
    Tallin Dezno: no Bruce . only not wanted to be online for everybody at this moment - excuse me plz once again for that may be a bit confusing appearance :-)
    Tallin Dezno: and hello hana :-)
    Qt Core: for confusing appearance you should see me these days, organizing and (trying) most of the content of my inventory... got some serious surprises :-) )
    Hana Furlough: what kind of an inventory?
    Qt Core: the things you have here in sl
    Tallin Dezno: whaow. cool qt - that is a big task in sl ! :-)
    Hana Furlough: ohhhhh I see
    Bruce Mowbray checks his inventory to see how much is there. . .
    Tallin Dezno: thousands of items ...
    Qt Core: luckily I have quite a small inventory (comparing to people I know)
    Tallin Dezno: Tallin has very few : 1831 - but Bertram is close to 10.000
    Bruce Mowbray is wondering if there are limits to how much one can have in inventory.
    Qt Core: I'm a little above 5000, even if opening boxes I've passed 6000 now
    Hana Furlough: 1725
    Bruce Mowbray: Where can you find the number of items?
    Hana Furlough: up at the top
    Hana Furlough: right under "My Inventory"
    Bruce Mowbray: Oh -- Thanks! I have 2,820.
    Qt Core: some builder friends of mine are above 50000 (and it seem to be quite a normal number for them)
    Wol Euler: hello everyone
    Bruce Mowbray: Welcome, Wol!
    Wol Euler: Hana, we haven't seen you in a while
    Qt Core: hi Wol


    Hana Furlough: hi there Wol
    Tallin Dezno: whaow - you are both examples of humbleness qt and hana ! :-)
    Tallin Dezno: and hi Wol - we are talking about numbers of inventory items ... ;-)
    Wol Euler: ah, that "whaow" is a clue :)
    Qt Core: or just lack of funds and love for shopping ;-)
    Wol Euler: nice to meet you Tallin
    Bruce Mowbray: Would any of you care to claim this session -- If not, I will do that.
    Tallin Dezno: ty Wol :-)
    Wol Euler: it's yours, Bruce
    Bruce Mowbray: OK. Here I go. . .
    Wol Euler cheers
    Tallin Dezno: lol nice title Bruce ;o)
    Bruce Mowbray: Ha ha! Blub just got rid of it ;-)
    Tallin Dezno: yes. sl can be very quick
    Bruce Mowbray: Blub doesn't like living under a label any more than I do.
    Qt Core: lagging at the speed of light
    Hana Furlough: haha, qt!
    Wol Euler: 23144 items
    Bruce Mowbray: Does anyone have a topic -- If not, I have one.
    Hana Furlough: ok let's hear it
    Tallin Dezno: I don´t mind labels - don´t care much about them normally :-)

    Trusting Basic Goodness

    Bruce Mowbray: Well. . . .
    Bruce Mowbray: This morning I woke up feeling paranoid.
    Bruce Mowbray: Very unusual for me -- might have been a bad dream.
    Bruce Mowbray: This is going to sound very strange. . .
    Bruce Mowbray: but I seemed to need to reassure myself of Trust.
    Bruce Mowbray: Trust in the most basic things. . .
    Bruce Mowbray: like Time.
    Hana Furlough: can you trust Time?
    Bruce Mowbray: Like -- trusting that the processes of Nature are working as they should.
    Tallin Dezno: (whaow)
    Bruce Mowbray: yes, very basic stuff, indeed.
    Tallin Dezno: that sounds intense
    Bruce Mowbray: yes, intense.
    Wol Euler: what did you do?
    Wol Euler: (to recover your trust)
    Hana Furlough: wow
    Bruce Mowbray: Then it occurred to me how I live moment-by-moment with that Trust. . .
    Tallin Dezno: and I had thought the same spontaneously : a bad dream ...
    Bruce Mowbray listens for more from Tallin.
    Hana Furlough: Bruce, can you say more about how you live?
    Tallin Dezno: I think, then one mostly finds back quick to a so called "normality" ? sry, if I destroy mysticisms with it perhaps ? some people don´t like such at all ...
    Bruce Mowbray: It's OK, Tallin.
    Tallin Dezno: but what I mean is a healthy and peaceful state of being ...
    Bruce Mowbray: Well, to answer Hana, I seemed to need to do a "leap of faith."
    Tallin Dezno: ty Bruce- and I would also like to ask : how did that go on ? better, good now ?
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, in order to re-establish a healthy and peaceful state of being, I needed to make a leap of faith.
    Hana Furlough: how did you do that?
    Bruce Mowbray: It seems that I needed to "drop" all of my needs for "security" -- and simply go back to Trusting.
    Bruce Mowbray: although if you asked me WHOM or WHAT I was trusting, I couldn't answer.
    Tallin Dezno: sounds great, very good - does it feel like that, too ? (hopefully) ... :-)
    Hana Furlough: Is that your practice, to Trust?
    Wol Euler nods.
    Bruce Mowbray: I hadn't realized it until this morning -- but, yes, I think that must be a basic part of my practice... or at least it is NOW.
    Hana Furlough: wow
    Hana Furlough: that's incredibly inspiring, Bruce
    Bruce Mowbray: We often say, "Stay in the open question..."
    Tallin Dezno: it´s nice. I am happy to have that too and we call it in our language something like "basic trust" -
    Hana Furlough: what language is that, Tallin?
    Tallin Dezno: German
    Bruce Mowbray: yes, Basic Trust in the processes of Being (for all things).
    Bruce Mowbray: Or, perhaps I could also say: "Basic Trust in Basic Goodness."
    Hana Furlough: that's really beautiful
    Wol Euler: hello Ara
    arabella Ella: Hiya!
    Tallin Dezno: yes. I sometimes say trust in the universe, nature and all that - hello Ara :-)
    Bruce Mowbray: Welcome, Ara.
    Tallin Dezno: I call it like that I meant
    Hana Furlough: Hello Ara
    Tallin Dezno: and yes ! basic goodness is also - really beautiful ! :-)
    Hana Furlough: smiles
    Bruce Mowbray: For me, in order to 'stay in the open question' it seems necessary to remind myself of Basic Goodness.
    Hana Furlough: I agree. Otherwise, it's just too scary
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, indeed, SCARED is what I felt this morning.
    Hana Furlough: Although I suspect it has to be a non-conceptual basic goodness
    Hana Furlough: does that happen to you often, Bruce?
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, agreed, Hana.
    Bruce Mowbray: No -- Only twice that I can remember in my whole life.
    Hana Furlough: Wow really?


    Asking the Big Questions

    Bruce Mowbray: But recently I've been asking some big questions -- especially with the Time Sessions.
    Tallin Dezno: may I ask which big questions they were ?
    Bruce Mowbray: Well, for example, we are now considering that Time presents us with the Presence of appearances....
    Hana Furlough: I find I go in these cycles of intense doubt, then they break into some kind of mystical experience, then everything goes back to normal, and it starts all over again
    Bruce Mowbrayn listens intently for more from Hana.
    arabella Ella listens to Bruce too ... please say more
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes! Like a comet orbiting its sun.
    Hana Furlough: I was just wondering if that happens to other people
    Wol Euler: oh yes :)

    Tonglen Practice

    Bruce Mowbray: Well. . . . This morning, I found that the "easiest" way for me to get out of my ontological angst was to do the Tonglen practice. . .
    Hana Furlough: interesting...
    Bruce Mowbray: and so I "sent" trusting to everyone in the world who might also have been feeling scared at that moment.
    Tallin Dezno: (whaow again) ...
    Wol Euler: though I wouldn't claim a mystical experience at the high or low point
    Wol Euler: nice, Bruce.
    Hana Furlough: yeah, wow is right
    Bruce Mowbray: and within minutes I was feeling grounded and balanced and confident again.
    Bruce Mowbray: Have others had a similar sort of experience?
    Wol Euler is ashamed to have to Google tonglen
    Bruce Mowbray: np. Tonglen is a practice in Theravedan Buddhism.
    Qt Core: feel free to share the shame ;-)
    Bruce Mowbray: (no shame!)
    Tallin Dezno: ( I find tonglen SO difficult (!) - so I can´t contribute a similar experience of that kind, sry) ... hm ...
    Hana Furlough: I like tonglen, but I find it hard to do without attachment
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, it is amazing that I also felt Tonglen to be difficult -- and yet, also the perfect antidote to my own problem.
    Bruce Mowbray: Offering to others what I needed most for myself.
    Tallin Dezno: but Bruce - practice of vajrayana buddhism, right ? not theravada (?) or both ?
    Hana Furlough: wow
    Tallin Dezno: (sry for that pure technical interruption plz)
    Bruce Mowbray: Well, I'm not sure, Tallin. I only know of Tonglen through the teachings of Pema Chodron -- and I know she's. . .
    Bruce Mowbray: wait a minute,,,, She is Tibetan/Shambhala....
    Tallin Dezno: vajrayana she is ... Tibetan buddhism
    Bruce Mowbray: so I really don't know the tradition that Tonglen comes from.
    Bruce Mowbray: All I know is that it works!
    Hana Furlough: I need to run.... keeping a friend waiting in RL
    Wol Euler smiles.
    Hana Furlough: thank you all for the fine discussion
    Wol Euler: *smiles
    Wol Euler: surely that's enough, Bruce?
    Wol Euler: bye hana, take care
    Qt Core: Bye Hana
    Bruce Mowbray: OK -- THANKS, Hana! See you again soon, I hope.
    Tallin Dezno: it´s Tibetan and it´s very challenging as I said before - at least for me. nearly "too high" - or it´s a special lack of me that I can´t do it so well ... hm
    Bruce Mowbray: np, Tallin. I also find some of the simplest meditation exercises to be nearly impossible.
    Tallin Dezno: so - wonderful, that you can do THAT !!

    Monkey Minds

    Bruce Mowbray: Well --- Here's how it works: When I have trouble with Monkey Mind, etc., I simply revert to Tonglen and send help to everyone in the world like myself -- all of those who also experience problems with Monkey Mind.
    Tallin Dezno: which exercises you find difficult ? :-)
    Bruce Mowbray: Keeping my mind centered on meditation, basically.
    Tallin Dezno: and do you also take all their monkey minds and bare it ?
    Bruce Mowbray: yes, that is part of the exercise.
    Bruce Mowbray: Breathing in all the Monkey Minds - and breathing out the Presence.
    Bruce Mowbray: (or whatever I am most having trouble with, myself).
    Wol Euler smiles.
    Tallin Dezno: yes. I see. great. wonderful
    Tallin Dezno: (poor Ara - always seems to crash a lot)
    Bruce Mowbray wonders if he could do Tonglen for SL ‘crashing.'
    Tallin Dezno giggles :-)
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    Tallin Dezno: I´ll try that ! :-)
    Bruce Mowbray: There's something a bit "hidden" in my Tonglen practice, though ::::
    Wol Euler listens
    Bruce Mowbray: It's almost as if I can see my way to offering help to others -- but not to myself.


    Bruce Mowbray: I often feel that I am "beyond help" -- and that others "deserve" help more than I do. . . (a basically dishonest position, I feel).
    Bruce Mowbray: So I am basically lying to myself about myself.
    Wol Euler: that sounds very sad, Bruce.
    Bruce Mowbray: Tonglen helps me cut through that self-hate.
    Wol Euler: and also unrealistic, if I may
    Tallin Dezno: but may be that makes the practice a bit more easy ?
    Bruce Mowbray agrees with Wol, but also must be honest about his sad condition.
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, Tallin, it makes the Tonglen practice easier and also necessary for my own sanity.
    Wol Euler wonders if your sad condition is sadder than anyone else's. I suspect that most if not all of us feel that way at least part of the time
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, Wol,--- I was listening to a Dharma podcast recently --
    Bruce Mowbray: The presenter asked the audience of 600 people how many of them felt they were "unworthy"---- and all but TWO raised their hands.
    Tallin Dezno: and my first impression from your description was not "lying" but being a bit less aware - as you described it - and that is not a fault ... as said before : can even help and we all work on - whatever ...
    Bruce Mowbray: Wonderful point, Tallin.
    Tallin Dezno: :-)
    Bruce Mowbray: How is all of this sitting with you, Qt?
    Bruce Mowbray thinks Qt might be multi-tasking (or that I've put Qt to sleep).
    Wol Euler: :)
    Wol Euler: perhaps you've inspired him to a deep meditation
    Bruce Mowbray: ;)))
    Qt Core: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Qt!
    Tallin Dezno: :-) !
    Qt Core: I think I never dwelled soo deep
    Wol Euler: :)
    Bruce Mowbray listens to Qt.
    Qt Core: and I never learned meditation or Buddhist traditions
    Qt Core: (have some books and titles but never got the time (or courage) to read them)
    Bruce Mowbray: not really necessary to learn them. . . Your own experience is what matters.
    Bruce Mowbray: (my thoughts, anyway).
    Wol Euler: sure, but experience may need to be explained and/or focused
    Qt Core: the question may be, do I don't have issues or do I don't permit to my "eyes" to see them ?
    Bruce Mowbray: Well, I wouldn't invite trouble. . .
    Bruce Mowbray: As Hana said earlier: "I find I go in these cycles of intense doubt, then they break into some kind of mystical experience, then everything goes back to normal, and it starts all over again."
    Bruce Mowbray: It just happens.
    Wol Euler: I put that down to biorhythms, actually
    Wol Euler: because I've noticed that those tiefpunkte coincide with changes in my metabolism
    Wol Euler: tiefpunkte = troughs :)
    Bruce Mowbray: OK- then there might be a biological substrate -- but still there is some sort of stuff to be dealt with.


    Wol Euler: well, yes, the biorhythm doesn't cause the feeling of worthlessness, that is from within
    Wol Euler: but the bodily low makes that feeling more likely to arise (in my experience)
    Bruce Mowbray thinks "worthlessness" is learned VERY early in life. . . [conditioned -- not a natural feeling].
    Wol Euler: perhaps
    Bruce Mowbray: yes, I do understand and agree.
    Tallin Dezno: sry - my eyes make funny things - can´t see very well suddenly anymore - should take a break as it seems - be well and ty - may all beings ... be happy :-)
    Wol Euler: huh
    Wol Euler: bye Tallin, gt some sleep
    Wol Euler: take care.
    Bruce Mowbray: THANKS, Tallin/ Be well.
    Qt Core: Bye Tallin
    Tallin Dezno: hehe . ty all *wave* :-)

    The Recursive Life Virtualizer

    Qt Core: damn, started the "recursive life virtualizer" in my head, wondering if I feel bad or not, if I should or if I should feel bad as I don't feel bad... and so on
    Wol Euler: heheheheh
    Bruce Mowbray: infinite regress?
    Wol Euler: do you feel bad about feeling bad?
    Qt Core: almost, you know, the ‘I know that you know' thing
    Bruce Mowbray: a humbling thought. . .
    Qt Core: about not feeling bad and/or not knowing if I feel bad... or not
    Qt Core: ?
    Bruce Mowbray: It is OK not to know.
    Bruce Mowbray has often had to give himself permission Not to know.
    Qt Core: but once you want to know there is the danger of lying to oneself
    Wol Euler: well, qt, we do that all the time :)
    Qt Core: yes, especially about calories eaten and burned ;-)
    Bruce Mowbray: Socrates was proclaimed (by the Oracle at Delphi) to be the wisest Greek -- because he alone knew that he did not know.
    Wol Euler: meditation and looking for truth within makes it more likely that you'll recognize the lie as it is told, not that you will lie more often.
    Wol Euler: we polish our memories, we improve our motives, we brighten up our successes and downplay our failures
    Wol Euler: or vice versa :)
    Wol Euler: on the bad days
    Qt Core: agree, especially on the vice versa
    Bruce Mowbray agrees with Wol. . . and we often project upon others the very things in ourselves that we cannot bear to face and accept.
    Wol Euler: but they're both false, that's the point.
    Bruce Mowbray: wb, arabella.
    Wol Euler: telling yourself that you are worthless is as untrue as telling yourself that you are a genius
    Wol Euler: wb Ara
    Qt Core: hi Ara as I didn't greet you at your first come
    arabella Ella: Hiya ... ty!
    arabella Ella: Ciao Qt!


    Bruce Mowbray: But what if the sense of unworthiness rises of its own accord. . . not something that one "thinks" voluntarily?
    Qt Core: hi Mick
    arabella Ella: Hiya Mick
    Mickorod Renard: Hi,,was looking for Ara
    Mickorod Renard: hide and seek on sl is very tough
    arabella Ella: not sure if I am on the right track but could it be a sense of insecurity you are talking about, which is something that affects many ppl
    Mickorod Renard: ahha,,found you
    arabella Ella: Oh here I am Mick :)
    Wol Euler smiles.
    Bruce Mowbray: Hello, Mick!
    Mickorod Renard: :)
    Wol Euler: Bruce, I agree that it is often (usually) involuntary.
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Bruce, Wol
    Wol Euler: but I'm not sure where you want to go with that.
    Wol Euler: hello Mick
    Bruce Mowbray: nowhere. . . just thinking that "telling oneself" that she or he is "unworthy" might not be something one does voluntarily.
    Wol Euler: if one is halfway sane :)
    Bruce Mowbray: yet, there is it to be dealt with.   like a sort of ghost.
    Wol Euler: I think it's a subconscious process, an internalized parent/teacher/bully voice
    Wol Euler: the one that got the other kids on the playground to laugh at you
    Bruce Mowbray: definitely, that one -- also a form of self-loathing..... and something to be dealt with (and Tonglen is one way I deal with it).
    Wol Euler nods.
    Bruce Mowbray: What's up with you today, Mick?
    Mickorod Renard: me?
    Bruce Mowbray: yeppers.
    Mickorod Renard: all well with me Bruce
    Mickorod Renard: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: GOOD to hear that.
    Mickorod Renard: been at dreams
    arabella Ella: just something that strikes me, Bruce ... I don't think you need be so tough on yourself as the adjectives you use are really drastic ... surely there are other ways of describing things less hurtful?
    Bruce Mowbray: Perhaps. . . will consider Ara's suggestion carefully.
    Wol Euler: ah, Tuesday. I always forget
    Bruce Mowbray: Oh -- Maxine's group.
    arabella Ella: try to re-define it with 'softer' terms
    Bruce Mowbray: I don't see it as ME being tough on myself, though.
    Bruce Mowbray: It is more like the echoes of those bullies.
    arabella Ella: you don't ... I do
    arabella Ella: I see you as being far too tough on yourself
    arabella Ella: using terms like self-loathing etc
    arabella Ella: even when I was here earlier there were other terms just as drastic
    Mickorod Renard: I get this said to me too, Bruce, yet I am comfortable with it in many respects
    Wol Euler: my dears, this is a fascinating discussion and I'm sorry to leave it halfway, but I must. Just too tired.
    Wol Euler: goodnight, take care, be kind to yourselves.
    Mickorod Renard: nite nite Wol
    arabella Ella: goodnight Wol take care
    Bruce Mowbray: OK, Wol. THANK you! Have a fine sleep.
    Qt Core: 'night Wol, sleep well
    Mickorod Renard: I think for some, life is like any job u put your heart into, this also means making observations so as to correct things and so forth for its even running and efficiency. the thing is, every so often one has to stop and take stock,,and pat oneself on the back for the good things
    arabella Ella: ah self praise can be very difficult for some
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, monitoring and modifying ourselves all along the way.
    arabella Ella: much easier to criticize than to praise
    Bruce Mowbray: the 'patting oneself on the back' is very important.
    arabella Ella: altho depends on how we have been raised
    Bruce Mowbray: yes, also depends on whether we want to change. . .
    Qt Core: but also is kicking yourself in the back ;-)
    arabella Ella: yes motivation too
    Mickorod Renard: some have said that I beat myself up over things, but its just my way of working, I focus lots and it looks like I am over-doing it
    Mickorod Renard: but in fact I am enjoying the immersion
    Bruce Mowbray thinks himself to be a lot like Mick in that regard.
    arabella Ella: :)


    Mickorod Renard: but I liked it when Stim reminded me that I needed to love myself more, this was true also
    Qt Core: sleeptime for me
    Bruce Mowbray: Some of my selves are lovable -- others are not so much so.... I try to love the ones that NEED loving.
    Qt Core: bye all and beside the topic :-) have fun!
    Bruce Mowbray: Good night Qt -- and THANKS.
    arabella Ella: oh good night Qt sogni d'oro!
    Mickorod Renard: nite Qt
    Mickorod Renard: :), I know what you mean, Bruce
    Mickorod Renard: I like to remind myself too, that we are largely water, and I believe that unless we love our bodies we will suffer as water needs love too
    Bruce Mowbray: mmmm. . . thinking of water purifications. . .
    Bruce Mowbray: baptisms. . . . and ritual bathing.
    Mickorod Renard: and water loves water, when it rains it's a coming home for my body
    Mickorod Renard: the touch
    Bruce Mowbray: I LOVE a good thunderstorm!
    Mickorod Renard: and Ara loves swimming
    Bruce Mowbray: Do you also love swimming, Mick?
    Mickorod Renard: there is much reference in the Bible about water, I do wonder whether the writers knew more than we give credit
    Mickorod Renard: I like swimming, but I am just happy immersed in it
    Mickorod Renard: the act of swimming feels a little boring to me
    Bruce Mowbray ponders the metaphors.


    Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm. . . .
    Mickorod Renard: nice chilling time
    Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmmmm.. ;-)
    Bruce Mowbray: You are both LOVELY! (That's an 'inside' joke, Mick.)
    Bruce Mowbray: I need to feed this WORTHY and water-containing guy now.
    Mickorod Renard: :) thank you
    Bruce Mowbray: So I shall bid you both a Happy Day.
    Mickorod Renard: yes? what u going to have?
    arabella Ella: oh bye Bruce
    arabella Ella: and thanks!
    Mickorod Renard: yea, and you be well Brucie
    arabella Ella: you are LOVELY too Bruce :)
    Bruce Mowbray: I shall be eating Tilapia (fish) and veggies.
    Bruce Mowbray: Bye for now!
    Mickorod Renard: wow,,nice
    Mickorod Renard: bye

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    What a wonderful session, and a nice moment for me in that I wrote on another page that I felt the thing to do over something was to 'stay in the open question'... then to come and read this. Such a settling then...
    Much Appreciation _/!\_
    Posted 16:54, 5 Oct 2010
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