2010.10.10 07:00 - Sharing Pain

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Adams Dubrovna. The comments are by Adams Dubrovna.

    This session was in two parts but there seems to be a connection between the two in that all these topics were very personal and involved deep feelings of what we are

    Archmage Atlantis: helllo adams
    Adams Dubrovna: Hello Archmage :)

    Arch's Loss of non-human friends

    Archmage Atlantis: I have known loss this day
    Archmage Atlantis: Two of my non-human companions passed
    Adams Dubrovna: I am very sorry to hear that
    Adams Dubrovna: Two at once?
    Archmage Atlantis: Yes
    Archmage Atlantis: A parrokeet and a Mollie
    Archmage Atlantis: Mollie = aquarium fish
    Adams Dubrovna nods
    Adams Dubrovna: Pets passing create an emptiness
    Archmage Atlantis: Yes
    Archmage Atlantis: More realized, but not less than other things in our existence that pass
    Adams Dubrovna: yes, they stay with us
    Adams Dubrovna: expect to hear them or see them
    Archmage Atlantis: That is part of it
    Archmage Atlantis: Hello Io
    Adams Dubrovna: Hello Io :)
    Io Larkspur: Good morning.
    Archmage Atlantis: I was just discussing loss, and Adams was kind enough to listen
    Adams Dubrovna: Have you been here before Io?
    Io Larkspur: Yes, many time. Thanks.
    Adams Dubrovna: Nice to meet you :)
    Io Larkspur: Nice to meet you, too, Adams.
    Archmage Atlantis: I was telling of my parrokeet departing this life this morning
    Archmage Atlantis: and of one of my mollies (fish)
    Io Larkspur: Oh, gosh, Arch. . . .
    Io Larkspur listens . . .
    Archmage Atlantis: I held Little Bird, as I was lucky to know she was passing
    Archmage Atlantis: I said a prayer
    Qt Core: hi all
    Adams Dubrovna: Hello Qt :)
    Io Larkspur: Hello, Qt.
    Archmage Atlantis: Then she left
    Archmage Atlantis: Hi AT
    Archmage Atlantis: There are things beyond knowing
    Bertram Jacobus: hi arch io adams and qt ! :-)
    Qt Core: Hi Bertram
    Io Larkspur: Hello, Bert.
    Adams Dubrovna: Helllo Bert :)
    Adams Dubrovna: It is the first time I have been to a session with five male avatars and no female ones :)
    Archmage Atlantis: I have to go....I have company
    Adams Dubrovna: go well Arch :)
    Qt Core: Bye Arch, have fun
    Archmage Atlantis: Blessings and Namaste

    Arch leaves and we kick around some ideas

    Bertram Jacobus: hehe. i experience many sessions with much more males - in former times it was different is my impression ...
    Bertram Jacobus: but at lesat bleu has left a souvenir here ? ;-)
    Adams Dubrovna: :)
    Adams Dubrovna: Is there anything anyone would like to discuss?
    Bertram Jacobus: me : no. not at this moment. no ideas :o)
    Bertram Jacobus: and mostly i prefere talks, not discussions ;-)
    Adams Dubrovna: Does anyone have any talks prepared?
    Adams Dubrovna: :)
    Bertram Jacobus: lol
    Io Larkspur: ;-)

    Io breaks the ice with a book "The Stuff of Thought" in which a chapter on politeness has been meaningful to him

    Io Larkspur: A couple of weeks ago, Qt recommended that I read a book --
    Bertram Jacobus: really kind. ty adams !
    Adams Dubrovna: I am working on one for the Art History workshop next week :)
    Io Larkspur: Steven Pinker's "The Stuff of Thought."
    Io Larkspur: This morning I read the section on politeness. . .
    Adams Dubrovna listens
    Io Larkspur: Well, it was an eye-opening chapter...
    Qt Core: reminded me of a ballet that section ;-)
    Io Larkspur: and I've been thinking of the subtle ways I use "polite" language. . .
    Io Larkspur: to show deference, to manipulate, to make myself subservient or dominant. . .
    Io Larkspur: andyway -- just wanted to thank Qt for the suggestion. The book is VERY good, indeed.
    Qt Core: yw :-)
    Io Larkspur: Pinker has a new one out now: "The Blank Slate."
    Qt Core: not really new, i read it more than a year ago
    Qt Core: interesting book, a little less intriguing than this one
    Io Larkspur: Oh -- I've only heard itmentioned in the news recently -- apparently much to do about evolution and human nature....
    Qt Core: about the long standing question, do our nature/personality depend opnly on genes or only on environment
    Io Larkspur: the nature/nurture debate?
    Qt Core: yes
    Qt Core: i'm for 50/50
    Adams Dubrovna: Once one has childrren, one understands the differences due to genes
    Qt Core: not fixed but usually

    Seeing Parents

    Io Larkspur: The older I get, the more similarities I'm observing between me and my parents (both now deceased). I NEVER thought I'd be saying that!
    Adams Dubrovna: :)
    Adams Dubrovna: parents always look better the older we get :)
    Io Larkspur: ;-)
    Io Larkspur: When I find myself doing some of their behaviors -especially the ones I used to dislike - I am able to have more compassion for what they were going through.
    Adams Dubrovna nods
    Io Larkspur: especially my mom.
    Io Larkspur: some of this came powerfully to mind this morning when I was reading the chapter on "politeness" in Pinker's book.
    Io Larkspur: how many of her "manipulative" expressions I am now using myself.
    Io Larkspur: One of her expressions that used to drive me nuts was, "would you like to . . . . ?"
    Io Larkspur: - - - and "no" was NOT an optional answer -- because her "question" was actually a command.
    Qt Core: how you could not be pleased by doing what she asked ;-)
    Io Larkspur: ;-) Surely you jest.
    Adams Dubrovna: :)
    Qt Core: here we go even further, i got tols something like "it would be useful to..."
    Io Larkspur: Pinker does an excellent job of showing the subtle attitude substrates lying beneath our "polite" language. . . and it is very eye-opening.
    Io Larkspur: yes, or "someone ought to mow the gras...." etc.
    Qt Core: (here as in in my home)
    Io Larkspur: grass*
    Io Larkspur: "Would you like to practice for your piano recital. . . ?"
    Adams Dubrovna: :)
    Io Larkspur: my "no" anser resulted in the whole piano being thrown at me.
    Bertram Jacobus: sry - i´m not very ... awake at the moment - should take a break - cu later guys - thx for being here ! *wave* ...
    Io Larkspur: answer*
    Qt Core: have you ever seen the face of people when you answer NO to such questions ?
    Adams Dubrovna: Bye Bert
    Qt Core: bye Bertran
    Io Larkspur: Be well - and polite, Bert.
    Bertram Jacobus: ty :-)
    Io Larkspur: polite*
    Adams Dubrovna: strong mother
    Io Larkspur: a very strong mother trying to appear to be subservient -- and "nice" when she was actually highly manipulative...
    Io Larkspur: but as I've aged, I've come to understand WHY she felt a need to manipulate. . . and that's why I have more compassion for her predicament now than when she was living.
    Adams Dubrovna nods
    Adams Dubrovna: Pema often says something like hate the action but love the person
    Qt Core: i think i got manipulative quite early in my life, probably due to having a disabled sister and having to convince her to do (or not to do) something, me and my mother are experts in the good cop bad cop game
    Io Larkspur: there are several layers operative - - - and it's interesting to watch my siblings work through the tougher memories. . . of a very dysfunctional family.
    Qt Core: (and all that remind us of the freap power of words/language)
    Qt Core: freap=great
    Io Larkspur: the great power of words -- to clarify and/or to deceive.
    Adams Dubrovna: I don;t think my parents ever learned much about politeness so I did not have this problem
    Io Larkspur: My dad was an alcoholic -- but he was alsobrilliant - a PhD in bacteriology.
    Io Larkspur: so -- as with any family with an alcoholic - we all learned how to "step around" the elephant in the room -- both for self-protection and to protect him -- and each other.
    Adams Dubrovna nods
    Io Larkspur: and it is fascinating (to me) now to observe how my brother and sister show their own development with regard to family memories...
    Io Larkspur: all these lyears later,
    Io Larkspur: and having raised their own children so beautifully.
    Io Larkspur: My brother, for example, absolutely refused to be in the room if my dad is mentioned.
    Io Larkspur: but he has been the most wonderful father himself.
    Io Larkspur: painful memories -- avoidance.
    Io Larkspur: yet, embracing his own responsibilities with loving and caring.
    Io Larkspur: not to belabor the point -- but just one more thing ---
    Io Larkspur: My mother did not mention my father by name for 35 years after he died.
    Adams Dubrovna: ohhh
    Io Larkspur: Instead, she would say "your father...." so as to distance herself from any "involvement" with him.
    Io Larkspur: and we were left to figure all of that out!
    Io Larkspur: ;-)
    Io Larkspur: no wonder Bruce is a hermit.
    Qt Core: even without having had problems my mother mentioned my father name only a couple time since his death (about 25 years ago)
    Adams Dubrovna: It seems to me he is a very caring person
    Adams Dubrovna: Bruce that is
    Io Larkspur: Perhaps it is too painful for her, Qt.
    Adams Dubrovna: Some parents just do not use proper names for each other in front of their Children
    Io Larkspur will pass along Adams' kind words to Brucie when he's done with his catatonic state.
    Adams Dubrovna: :)
    Qt Core: yes, maybe for both our mothers, trying to mention (if necessary) the figure and not the men they were in love with ?
    Adams Dubrovna: I never understood my parent's love for each other and know I never can
    Adams Dubrovna: it was theirs
    Adams Dubrovna: people hurt each other and still love each other too
    Io Larkspur: ;-) My parents hated each other (literally) -- and the three kids "learned" from their example.
    Adams Dubrovna: :(
    Io Larkspur: some of it is pretty nasty -- but As I said earlier, I am learning to treat their memory with compassion. . .
    Io Larkspur: and this assists my own healing.
    Adams Dubrovna: I had a profound experience in PaB
    Io Larkspur: Please say more.
    Adams Dubrovna: when I was dealing with what I thought was my father's voice telling me things I thought were wrong
    Adams Dubrovna: We sometimes do an exercise "Being seeing" in PaB
    Adams Dubrovna: I have extended this myself to others seeing me
    Adams Dubrovna: At one session, Pila suggested "Ancestor seeing"
    Adams Dubrovna: When I tried that, the voice immediately stilled
    Adams Dubrovna: because generations earlier did not approve of the voice
    Adams Dubrovna: The voice has never come back
    Io Larkspur: wow. THANKS for sharing that, Adams.
    Adams Dubrovna: sometimes we need to look furtherr
    Io Larkspur: The relationships among families and generations (ancestors) is NOT linear.
    Adams Dubrovna: We often carry the hurt from our parents and grandpaerents
    Adams Dubrovna: my grandmother was an orphan..had a hard childhood
    Io Larkspur: Yes, and they are beginning to see that some of this "hurt" is actually genetic.
    Io Larkspur: or "epi-genetic."
    Adams Dubrovna: she did not learn to love fully
    Adams Dubrovna: it carried over to my mother
    Adams Dubrovna: it was not easy to express their love
    Io Larkspur ponders Adams' family story. . . .
    Adams Dubrovna: I only learned about all this when my mother and I did some geneology together
    Adams Dubrovna: My father's father was estranged from his parents and that too carried down
    Adams Dubrovna: I never learned why but it made him very unhappy
    Adams Dubrovna: these things come into our lives
    Adams Dubrovna: need to see them and then past them
    Io Larkspur: or, perhaps, THROUGH them. . . (in my case, anyway).
    Adams Dubrovna: yes!
    Adams Dubrovna: attachments that can be dropped :)
    Io Larkspur: as windows of insight into ourselves. . .
    Adams Dubrovna: yes!
    Io Larkspur: Folks - I apologize for violating the bell -- but I want to get in a hike with Bear Dog before having to get ready for RL Quaker Meeting. . . so,
    Io Larkspur: thanks for this conversation -- and I will be going now.
    Io Larkspur: May you both enjoy this day.
    Qt Core: will try, bye
    Io Larkspur: Be well.. Bye for now.
    Adams Dubrovna: bye Io
    Adams Dubrovna: you too :)
    Adams Dubrovna: There is a guardian meeting starting
    Adams Dubrovna: Not sure I can stay long
    Adams Dubrovna: bye for now :)
    Qt Core: i may come too, still deliberating ;-)
    Adams Dubrovna: see you there if you do
    Qt Core: bye for now

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