2010.10.13 13:00 - I Ching and Basic Goodness - an Exploration

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Bruce Mowbray. The comments are by Bruce Mowbray.

    Pila's I Ching group had been meeting for an hour prior to the beginning of this PaB Pavilion session.  Since all of the avi's from the I Ching session had migrated here, we decided to continue the previous hour's discussion.


    Bruce Mowbray: Welcome, Arch.

    Archmage Atlantis: Hello, Bruce

    Bruce Mowbray: LOVE the feet and ears!

    Archmage Atlantis: Hiya Bert :)

    Bertram Jacobus: hi Bruce and Arch! :‑)

    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Bert!

    Bertram Jacobus: hi from the Stuttgart retreat ‑ where we have a very poor inetconnection ;‑)

    Archmage Atlantis: Umm, that's Russia

    Archmage Atlantis: not me

    Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm. . .   WELCOME, Stuttgart retreatants!

    Bertram Jacobus: for example, I can’t see Bruce yet ‑ are you right or left from Archie? ;‑)

    Bruce Mowbray: I am directly across the fountain from Arch.  Diametric, as it were.

    Bertram Jacobus: ok ‑ I hope, I clicked a free cushion now-- lol

    Bruce Mowbray: You are just fine, Bert.

    Bertram Jacobus: and my ava will sit there in the run of the evening ... lol

    Alfred Kelberry: ok, I Ching part 2 is coming :)

    Alfred Kelberry: oi, Berty

    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Alfred!

    Bertram Jacobus: hi Alfi! :‑)

    Alfred Kelberry: good to see you in the pagoda again, Bruce :)

    Bertram Jacobus: and when I crash ‑ you know why ;‑)

    Alfred Kelberry: I hope Io is doing well :)

    Bertram Jacobus: hey Mickey! ;‑)

    Archmage Atlantis: You are itching intellectually, Al?

    Bertram Jacobus: and ara ! :‑)

    Bruce Mowbray: GOSH ‑‑ I am SO grateful for the support you folks have given me. . . Limbo is not a pleasant state to be in. . . But I am FREEEEEE now ‑‑ thanks to everyone's support.

    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, arabella!

    arabella Ella: Hey Bertie how are you?

    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Mick!

    Alfred Kelberry: :)

    arabella Ella: are you at the retreat?

    arabella Ella: how are things?

    Mickorod Renard: Hi Bertie

    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Pila!

    Pila Mulligan: greetings

    Bertram Jacobus: bah ‑ so much chatlag here ‑ sry ‑ even don´t see my 'hello ara' from many seconds before :o)

    arabella Ella: :)

    Bertram Jacobus: ty ‑ fine at the Stuttgart retreat ara (!) :‑)

    arabella Ella: great

    Pila Mulligan: what time is it there now Bert?

    arabella Ella: I really wish I could have joined you but unfortunately it was not possible :(

    Alfred Kelberry: Berty, maybe you run some cpu‑intensive app (aside from sl :)

    Bertram Jacobus: and hello Pila :‑)

    Bruce Mowbray: Are others grouping around you to watch, Bert?


    Pila Mulligan: hi Bert :)

    Archmage Atlantis: Bah, bah, black sheep... have you any wool......yes sir yes sir, 3 bags full

    Bertram Jacobus: no. not at all ‑ only the inetconnection here is quite poor ‑ no wonder : in the middle of nowhere ‑ a satellite connection that is (!) ;‑)

    [I know about satellite connections . . .  since that's what I have here at the farm. ---  Bruce.]

    Mickorod Renard: should be around 10:20 p.m., Pila

    Alfred Kelberry: berty, oh... well, it's kind of cool in a way ‑ your words travel to the orbit and back :)

    Mickorod Renard: or 20:20

    arabella Ella: 22.20

    Bruce Mowbray: 16:20 for moi.

    Mickorod Renard: sorry, yes Ara

    Pila Mulligan: :)

    Alfred Kelberry: while the rest of us swim under the sea                  

    arabella Ella: at least Bertie has rezzed nicely, you should have seen Yaku last night here he did not rez very well

    Bertram Jacobus: and no ‑ we had our evening meeting until around 21 cet ‑ that was about one hour ago and now most of us are in their personal chambers I guess ... :‑)

    Bruce Mowbray is envious ‑‑ wishes he could be there in Stuttgart. . . .

    Mickorod Renard: its funny to imagine Pila is upside down to me

    arabella Ella: so are you in the countryside, Bert?

    Bertram Jacobus: yes. very nice countryside ! :‑)

    arabella Ella: and is it a sort of luxury retreat place with heating etc?

    Mickorod Renard: heating, decadent

    Alfred Kelberry: :)

    Alfred Kelberry: have you seen cows? :)

    arabella Ella: don’t say you go for cold showers, Mick?

    Mickorod Renard: no way, they are too wet for me

    arabella Ella giggles


    Bertram Jacobus: but sry ‑ that seems not to make sense : I only can read at most half of the chat and so am quite disorientated ‑ won’t be such a nice conversation for all ‑ should log off ‑ and I’m sure : you get reports later ! :‑)

    Archmage Atlantis: Cold showers to get over cows???.... think I missed a step

    Alfred Kelberry: ah, sorry, berty

    arabella Ella: please stay for a short while, Bertie?

    Pila Mulligan: nice to see you, Bert, and greetings to all the retreat participants

    Bertram Jacobus: so see you, hope you could read these lines and may all you beings be happy plz ‑ and the others, too ;o)

    Archmage Atlantis: ty Bert

    Bertram Jacobus: ty all ‑ ill greet ! :‑)

    Archmage Atlantis: I ask

    Mickorod Renard: yes stay, it's nice ur company

    Bruce Mowbray: Goodbye Bert! Enjoy the retreat!

    Alfred Kelberry: detachment... it's hard :)

    arabella Ella: oh yes greetings to all the others at the retreat and may all of you be happy too :)

    arabella Ella: we could easily continue our I Ching conversation here if we chose to do so!

    Archmage Atlantis: Shot that wad in the wrong direction

    Bruce Mowbray would LOVE to continue the I Ching discussion....

    Alfred Kelberry: I don't mind at all, ara

    arabella Ella: meeee ttooo Bruce

    Alfred Kelberry: *looks at Pila*

    Mickorod Renard: would you mind if I went and got a cuppa tea?

    Pila Mulligan: looks at Bruce :)

    Alfred Kelberry: :)

    arabella Ella looks at Pila too

    Mickorod Renard: carry on without me for a mom, I will catch up

    Bruce Mowbray: I feel that I missed a whole lot of it (RL phone call). . . but also that it was intense and very good.

    Pila Mulligan: well, I'm thinking how it began with Basic Goodness

    Pila Mulligan: as a thought

    Bruce Mowbray listens intently.

    Pila Mulligan: ‑> "Bruce Mowbray: I've been pondering "Basic Goodness" in conjunction with the I Ching. . ."

    Pila Mulligan: maybe we could also start from there :)

    Bruce Mowbray: yeppers ‑ that's what I typed.

    Pila Mulligan: :)

    Archmage Atlantis looks at Ara, looking at Bruce, looking at Pila, looking at Mick.....

    arabella Ella: :)

    Pila Mulligan: it led to quite a few thoughts Bruce

    Archmage Atlantis: and wonders

    Archmage Atlantis: where is my glass of beverage

    Bruce Mowbray: Well, in my 40+ years of experience with I Ching, I have always felt respect and awe, frankly, at the "goodness" of the readings that it has given me.

    Archmage Atlantis: So time to read the I Ching

    Archmage Atlantis: Go for it

    Bruce Mowbray: They are not only pertinent ‑ relevant ‑ but they are also gracious. . .

    arabella Ella: which book do you use Bruce, I mean which translation?

    Pila Mulligan: so the sum, or the effect, is one of goodness

    Bruce Mowbray: I have always thought of the I Ching as a sort of "camera" on the universe...

    Bruce Mowbray: a photograph of a particular moment.... as it relates to the question I have asked of it.

    Bruce Mowbray: I use the Wilhelm trans.

    arabella Ella: ok

    Bruce Mowbray: and you?

    arabella Ella: at the moment I have Alfred Huang's book which Pila helped to translate and Pila is mentioned in the acknowledgements!

    arabella Ella: but this is just for the moment

    Pila Mulligan: :)

    arabella Ella: by coincidence

    Bruce Mowbray: yes! I want to order that one.

    Archmage Atlantis: only the Sanskrit

    arabella Ella: it is a lovely edition prepared definitely with TLC

    Mickorod Renard: I have Alfred’s book

    Bruce Mowbray: wonderful ‑‑ that is the sort of respect I am thinking about.

    arabella Ella nods

    arabella Ella: now you read my mind too :)

    Mickorod Renard: ty

    Bruce Mowbray: How would any others explain "Basic Goodness"?

    arabella Ella: the graciousness you mention is visible at many levels not just in the meaning but in the form too

    Pila Mulligan: so goodness results in/from a good feeling?

    Pila Mulligan: form, ara?

    Pila Mulligan: thanks


    arabella Ella: apologies!

    Bruce Mowbray listens for responses to Pila's question from others.

    Pila Mulligan: does goodness result in/from a good feeling?

    Mickorod Renard: for me, I can only talk in simplistic ways, but If I can influence someone in a positive way, then that is my goal, and my reward

    arabella Ella: I think the best way to look at basic goodness is to show examples of where it could come into being

    arabella Ella: and possibly the best way is by setting a good example for others

    arabella Ella: parents, siblings, peers, colleagues, etc

    arabella Ella: it is a pity that the media very often goes for the diametric opposite of goodness to portray

    Pila Mulligan: Bruce, you mentioned earlier you find a wu wei quality in Basic Goodness

    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I am thinking of that now ‑‑ as I listen to ara.

    Bruce Mowbray: For me, B.G. is a far deeper thing.

    Bruce Mowbray: It is neither actions nor helping others to something "good."

    Bruce Mowbray: It is the fabric of Being itself.

    Bruce Mowbray: But this is just for me ‑‑ no intent to argue here.

    Bruce Mowbray: Wu wei, again for me, is allowing. . . the cosmos to be itself ‑‑ and trusting that as Cosmos is itself ‑‑ without my interference ‑‑ that Basic Goodness will manifest.

    Alfred Kelberry: *back*

    Mickorod Renard: I guess we can go deeper, it depends at what level we are talking

    Pila Mulligan: wb Alf

    Alfred Kelberry: :)

    Bruce Mowbray: wb, Alf!

    Alfred Kelberry: *reads the log*

    arabella Ella: wb Alfie

    Pila Mulligan: I'd like to again relate the idea to feelings, we seem to have an inherent capacity for being uplifted, to have higher feelings

    Bruce Mowbray: Consider how your body heals itself when you get a scratch. . .

    arabella Ella listens

    Bruce Mowbray: You do nothing but cleanse the area and wait.

    Pila Mulligan: same idea, Bruce ‑‑ healing

    Bruce Mowbray: yes.

    Pila Mulligan: a kind of reverse entropy

    Bruce Mowbray: The universe also does this. . . but we have to allow it.

    Bruce Mowbray: actually, it will heal itself whether we allow it or not.

    Pila Mulligan: even while its ultimate destiny is rigor mortis, the body can feel its way to healing

    Pila Mulligan: while it is alive

    Alfred Kelberry: :)

    Alfred Kelberry: good discussion

    Mickorod Renard: you know that strange story about how one can effect water crystals just by thought, well it always makes me think of how I feel when I want to effect something in a positive way, its done by an inner love and its good for all, just my silly idea

    Pila Mulligan: but that is indeed the idea we are on, I'd say, Mick

    Bruce Mowbray does not think it is silly at all.

    arabella Ella: and related to what Mick just said, could Bruce say a bit more about this: [13:37] Bruce Mowbray: The universe also does this. . . but we have to allow it.

    Mickorod Renard: ty

    Alfred Kelberry: Mick, I think it's wonderful. this action can "heal" evilness and it promotes more goodness

    Bruce Mowbray: I felt a need to qualify the "we have to allow it" ‑‑ because this is where I consider Cosmos to be gracious. . .

    Bruce Mowbray: whether or not we "deserve" its Goodness, Cosmos gives it to us continuously.

    Alfred Kelberry: a simple smile can make wonders

    Alfred Kelberry: Bruce, what do you mean by 'Cosmos'?

    Bruce Mowbray: yes, Al, and Cosmos can make a simple smile ‑‑ out of its own Goodness.

    Bruce Mowbray: Cosmos means the order of everything.  Universal order.

    Bruce Mowbray: How It Is ‑‑ the "suchness" of all that is.

    Alfred Kelberry: grace of god? :)

    Bruce Mowbray: If you choose to name it "god" that's fine.

    Bruce Mowbray: I think it is beyond our terminology.

    Bruce Mowbray wishes to listen to the ideas of others now.

    Alfred Kelberry: so, you say that basic goodness is like ether to cosmos?

    Bruce Mowbray: connective "tissue", you mean, Al?

    Bruce Mowbray: what connects everything?

    Alfred Kelberry: um... rather that it exists in it


    Bruce Mowbray nods.

    arabella Ella: like the air we breathe?

    Pila Mulligan: :)

    Alfred Kelberry: bruce, where is a place of evilness in cosmos?

    Alfred Kelberry: yes, ara :)

    Pila Mulligan: definitely like the air we breathe

    Bruce Mowbray: "Evil" is a human concept. It denotes that which is not to our advantage, unpleasant, painful, etc.

    Alfred Kelberry: oh...

    Bruce Mowbray: In a larger picture, there is no such thing.

    Alfred Kelberry: well, so is goodness then

    Bruce Mowbray: Not for me, Al.

    Alfred Kelberry: yes, you're a human :)

    Bruce Mowbray: The "BASIC" Goodness has no opposite in 'basic evil.'

    Mickorod Renard: would you consider water as a wonderful thing?

    arabella Ella: is evil not something that does its utmost to undermine goodness wherever it can?

    Mickorod Renard: water is in the air we breath too

    arabella Ella: and vice versa with goodness of course

    Mickorod Renard: and scattered across the cosmos

    Bruce Mowbray: I do not feel that way, ara.

    Pila Mulligan: me too, ara

    Pila Mulligan: it is more like entropy

    Pila Mulligan: it will drag you backwards with it just by momentum

    Alfred Kelberry: I think, taking Bruce’s concept, is that good and evil both present in this ether that we breath

    Bruce Mowbray: . . . . but even entropy ‑‑ running down toward chaos ‑‑ has its place in the larger scheme of things and therefore is 'good.'

    Pila Mulligan: :)

    Alfred Kelberry: "evil" is something not pleasant and we tend to discard it in favor of good

    Alfred Kelberry: so we talk about basic goodness, not basic evilness

    Pila Mulligan: "good and evil both present in this ether that we breath" - nice, Alfred

    Alfred Kelberry: :)

    Pila Mulligan: maybe goodness has the vote when people can see it

    Bruce Mowbray: Even what we call "chaos" seems to occur within a larger frame that we call "cosmos."

    Bruce Mowbray: Sorry, but I need to be afk for a minute.

    Mickorod Renard: is there a place in the middle, and if so, can that place be shifted towards a better middle place?

    Alfred Kelberry: Mick... interesting question

    Mickorod Renard: because the way I see it

    Pila Mulligan: it may be part of human nature to do so Mick

    Mickorod Renard: if it’s like wei wu

    arabella Ella: I agree with a lot of what Bruce says, however in life one comes across a lot of evil stuff unfortunately, done by evil people intent on destroying goodness ... so I am still a bit at a loss from seeing how basic goodness is there while evil is not?

    Alfred Kelberry: I would think basicness whatever that is supposed to be that "perfect" middle

    Pila Mulligan: there is definitely the contrast of good and evil, ara

    Mickorod Renard: yes, can there be a good middle, or does it have to be an equal mix of good and bad

    Pila Mulligan: I think good predominates over time, but slowly

    arabella Ella: even Gandhi had his critics, Pila, and Gandhi was against violence yet he sent men to their death with some of his non-violent tactics (if I am not mistaken that is)

    Alfred Kelberry: Pila, we're still alive, I think it's a good sign that goodness is winning overall :)

    Alfred Kelberry: (or I’d like to think so)

    Mickorod Renard: if we knew we would be reborn after death, there may be attractiveness from being killed?

    Pila Mulligan: true Ara, his followers died in his cause

    Pila Mulligan: some of them

    arabella Ella: yes

    arabella Ella: for me to some extent that tarnishes the whole non-violence approach he had

    Pila Mulligan: and as Alf suggested having gotten thru the Cold War was something of an accomplishment

    Pila Mulligan: well, ara it is complex

    arabella Ella: oh yes

    Pila Mulligan: but the idea of nonviolent resistance runs into violence

    arabella Ella: being all networked here as we are now is another great accomplishment I think

    Bruce Mowbray is back ‑‑ from political survey on telephone.

    arabella Ella: oh

    Alfred Kelberry: bruce :)

    Pila Mulligan: standing before it, speaking truth to evil, it can get you killed

    arabella Ella: wb bruce

    Pila Mulligan: wb Bruce

    Bruce Mowbray: such a death might be Good in the larger scheme.

    arabella Ella: I don’t agree there, Bruce

    Pila Mulligan: martyrs exist in every part of the political spectrum

    arabella Ella: I imagine the widow and little children as orphans with no one to sustain them

    Bruce Mowbray listens to ara and Pila.

    Mickorod Renard: if we truly drop our attachments that must include life


    Bruce Mowbray: I, too, am confounded by the "theodicy" question: How can evil exist in a cosmos created by an all-powerful "good" god. . . ?

    Pila Mulligan: the Amritsar massacre was one of the most bloody deathly experiences of Gandhi's campaign ‑‑ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jallianwala_Bagh_massacre

    Alfred Kelberry: *thinks of giordano bruno* he stood up before evil and told the truth... which cost him his life

    Bruce Mowbray: I do not feel it is my calling to explain such. . .

    Pila Mulligan: but it was a turning point in the campaign to free India

    Bruce Mowbray: There are countless examples of what we're calling "evil" here.

    arabella Ella: ah giordano bruno ... memories of campo dei fiori in Rome

    Bruce Mowbray: But my premise about Basic Goodness was that underneath ‑‑ or inherent within ‑‑ all Being, there is some intrinsic Good. Perhaps that is merely a "faith" position on my part.

    Alfred Kelberry: ara :)

    Pila Mulligan: :)

    arabella Ella: you may be right, Bruce, and I hope you are too!

    Pila Mulligan: maybe 'rightness' is a term we can contrast with 'goodness' in that sense, Bruce

    Alfred Kelberry: hmm

    Bruce Mowbray: Well, it is how I live ‑‑ and my own life seems to be an out-picturing of it ‑‑ I mean, I do not think that I deserve the good that my life has been given. . . It is probably in spite of me ‑ not because of anything I have done.

    Pila Mulligan: a rightness underneath ‑‑ or inherent within ‑‑ all Being,

    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, that's the idea, Pila.

    Alfred Kelberry: I think inherently it's a blank slate

    Pila Mulligan: Bruce, you may be wrong about your role in guiding your life to its condition

    Pila Mulligan: :)

    Mickorod Renard: I am afraid I have to go to bed folks

    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I agree with Pila on that.

    Pila Mulligan: nice to see Mick, sweet dreams

    Bruce Mowbray: Good night, Mick!

    Alfred Kelberry: night, Mick. so good to have you.

    Bruce Mowbray: Thanks for being here today.

    Mickorod Renard: although I am enjoying this chat immensely

    Pila Mulligan: :)

    Bruce Mowbray: ;‑)

    Mickorod Renard: thank you to you all

    Pila Mulligan: thank you

    arabella Ella: night Mick

    arabella Ella: and I think I must get some sleep too it is late

    Mickorod Renard: nite nite, best to u all

    Bruce Mowbray: Good night, ara!

    Bruce Mowbray: Thank you too!

    arabella Ella: bye everyone and thanks for a very interesting evening!

    Alfred Kelberry: ara, sleep well :) I’ll brush your hair in the morning :)

    arabella Ella: thanks Alfie I look forward :)

    Bruce Mowbray thinks ‑‑ How sweet of Al.

    Alfred Kelberry: :)

    Pila Mulligan: bye Ara

    Bruce Mowbray: You know, it is funny ‑‑ because I really have NO rational argument for Basic Goodness.

    Pila Mulligan: but you have faith

    Bruce Mowbray: It is a bit like my pacifism. . .

    Alfred Kelberry: sorry, a phone call...

    Pila Mulligan: :)

    Bruce Mowbray: When asked to give a rational argument for peace ‑‑ I can do so....

    Pila Mulligan: for me, faith at its best is expereince-based

    Bruce Mowbray: but the real explanation for my "pacifism" is that peace is Who I am ‑‑ not what I believe.

    Pila Mulligan: :)

    Bruce Mowbray: It is really not a political opinion, for me ‑‑ It is who I am.

    Pila Mulligan: the initial idea may be taken on faith alone, so to speak, but experience validates and refines the parts of that idea that stay with you

    Bruce Mowbray: And I realized this at the age of 17 ‑ and that's why I signed up for the draft as a conscientious objector. . . I could not help myself ‑‑ I am what I am.

    Bruce Mowbray: Thank, Pila ‑‑ That is very well stated.

    Pila Mulligan: I took a rougher road but came to the same destination :)

    Bruce Mowbray: That is precisely my own experience.

    Bruce Mowbray: ;‑)

    Pila Mulligan: I did not realize very much at age 17 :)

    Bruce Mowbray: It feels good to me when I hear others affirm that experience from their own lives.

    Pila Mulligan: yep

    Bruce Mowbray: I was undeniably CHARGED with it ‑‑ I simply KNEW that I could not possibly kill another human being ‑‑ I couldn't even kill a bird. . .

    Pila Mulligan: nice

    Bruce Mowbray: I had never heard of conscientious objection ‑‑ but, fortunately, a minister taught me about it. . . and I said , "THAT'S ME!"

    Pila Mulligan: I joined the military perfectly willing to die and left it unwilling to kill :)

    Bruce Mowbray: mmmm. . . . profound.

    Pila Mulligan: recognizing the difference was a blessing

    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I would be killed before I would kill.

    Bruce Mowbray: Indeed, a blessing.

    Bruce Mowbray: What a contrary‑to‑reason viewpoint, huh?

    Pila Mulligan: :)

    Bruce Mowbray: ;‑‑‑‑‑)

    Pila Mulligan: well, violence is the problem

    Bruce Mowbray listens to Pila and/or Arch and Alfred.


    Bruce Mowbray: My I Ching book is more tattered and worn out than my Bible ‑‑ I suppose an anthropologist would make something of that.

    Pila Mulligan: :)

    Pila Mulligan: more interactive?

    Bruce Mowbray: Yours too, Pila?

    Pila Mulligan: yes

    Bruce Mowbray: yeppers.

    Pila Mulligan: more so than my Gita and Koran, as well

    Bruce Mowbray feels joy at that thought.

    Pila Mulligan: but they all have value

    Pila Mulligan: suggesting a path to rightness

    Bruce Mowbray: absolutely so, Pila.

    Pila Mulligan needs to slip away now

    Bruce Mowbray: Me too.

    Pila Mulligan: nice to see you Bruce, Arch and Alf

    Bruce Mowbray: Thank you to everyone!

    Pila Mulligan: bye for now

    Pila Mulligan: thank you

    Bruce Mowbray: May all be well and happy.

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