2010.10.15 06:00 - Time Session: And I Don't Want To Miss a Thing

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    Fefonz Quan took up to post this session, covering for the (tremendously lucky) participants in the RL Stutgart retreat. The comments are by Fefonz Quan.

     

    Pema Pera: hi Fef!
    Fefonz Quan: HI Pema!
    Fefonz Quan: How's the retreat going on?
    Fefonz Quan: Hi Eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Pema, Fef :))
    Pema Pera: hi Eliza!
    Pema Pera: (I don't see my own lines, let me move to another room with hopefully better WiFi connection)
    Eliza Madrigal: :::waves::: to Bruce :)
    Fefonz Quan: Hi Bruce
    Pema Pera: hi Bruce!
    Bruce Mowbray: Good day, Eliza, Fef, and Pema.
    --BELL--
    Pema Pera: (the satellite internet connection has reasonable download time but great lag in uploading -- I don't see half of the lines that I am typing . . )
    Eliza Madrigal: That was happening to me yesterday, without iffy internet!
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Maxine :)
    Bruce Mowbray smiles in empathy - since satellite is what he has, also.
    Bruce Mowbray: Hello, Maxine.
    Eliza Madrigal: that feeling of typing into 'nowhere' is very strange :)
    Pema Pera: hi Maxine!
    Eliza Madrigal: brb
    Pema Pera: (let me try yet another room . . . )
    Maxine Walden: hi, everyone!
    Bruce Mowbray: Due to their technology, all satellites UPload at dial-up speed - but DOWNload at regular speed.
    Fefonz Quan: Almost like writing letters in the good old days Eliza :)
    Maxine Walden: seems we all are havingsome trouble logging in or such today...
    Maxine Walden: :)) fef
    Fefonz Quan: not me...
    Pema Pera: so it seems that I am getting at least some of your lines, and about half of the lines that I type are echoed back to me
    Fefonz Quan: Fi you want pema, i can copy-paste each of your lines
    Bruce Mowbray: Fef -- your microphone is on.
    Pema Pera: I suggest that if I don't respond to a specific question in a minute or so, then please just ask the question again!
    Fefonz Quan: (is it ok now?)
    Pema Pera: meanwhile, greetings from Germany, from the Play as Being retreat!
    Maxine Walden: (not typing, just the appearance of such)
    Pema Pera: we have Yaku, Bert, Lia, Eos, Wol and me here
    Maxine Walden: oh, yes, hi everyone in Germany...
    Fefonz Quan: Hi all retreaters!
    Maxine Walden: :)
    Pema Pera: Hi Zen!
    Maxine Walden: hi, Zen
    Zen Arado: Hi all :)
    Bruce Mowbray: hi, Zen.
    Maxine Walden: (typing appearance again...)
    Fefonz Quan: hi Zen
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zen (back... apologies, had three more potatoes to peel) :)
    Maxine Walden: :), Eliza
    Zen Arado: potato priorities :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Maxine Walden: the eyes have it!
    Zen Arado: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: haha
    Eliza Madrigal: :::waves to Germany retreaters:::::
    Pema Pera waving back on behalf to all !
    Zen Arado: who are they?
    Pema Pera: [06:05] Pema Pera: we have Yaku, Bert, Lia, Eos, Wol and me here
    Zen Arado: ok thanks
    Pema Pera: I enjoyed reading all the playful reports on the wiki :-)
    Pema Pera: http://wiki.playasbeing.org/index.php?title=PaB_Books/Magic_of_Time/Time_Sessions/Weekly_Reports/2010%2F%2F10%2F%2F15:_Reports
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, really cute :)
    Fefonz Quan: And I enjoyed the chapter no. 7 :)
    Fefonz Quan: mainly when Pema says that you cant really reach timeless time!
    Fefonz Quan: (haven't figured out what that is yet, not to say reaching it...)
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Pema Pera: (would somebody like to volunteer to post the session log?)
    Pema Pera: thanks, Fefonz! Any questions, comments, responses of any kind about chapter 7 ?
    Maxine Walden: thanks, Fef
    Fefonz Quan: And the part where pema finds there are no forks (while we already know there is no spoon -))
    Eliza Madrigal grins
    Pema Pera: :-)
    --BELL--
    Zen Arado: 'Either way, there is nothing to reach, to explore, to find, to check, to investigate in any way. that sounds great...so why do I/we? still keep doing it?
    Pema Pera: well, there is something to explore -- but not with the aim of reaching something :-)
    Bruce Mowbray: we have learned to do things as means to something else - rather than for their own sake.
    Zen Arado: so how to let go of that?
    Bruce Mowbray: play.
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    Pema Pera: watching the tendency to grasp can already be very helpful as such
    Zen Arado: it takes time in other words?
    Zen Arado: can it be instantaneous?
    Fefonz Quan: anytime i bounce into those kind of reasoning, my logical mind starts roaring in his case, although i try not to listen to it.
    Pema Pera: wanting to grasp implies you are missing something -- exploring and celebrating in a curious and free way can be an expression of there being nothing missing
    Zen Arado: I know Fef - have the same problem
    Fefonz Quan: and in a way many of the people around us are doing just tht - not trying to explore anything. where does that bring them?
    Pema Pera: trying to explore is a good idea, Fef
    Zen Arado: yeah - more enlightened than me maybe :)
    Zen Arado: non dualists say the more you search the further away you get
    Fefonz Quan: (so i repeat my previous question)
    Zen Arado: stopping searching is the main step in other words
    Pema Pera: yes, Fefonz?
    Zen Arado: it sounds too easy to me :)
    Pema Pera: what question was that?
    Pema Pera: (my lag may drop some words)
    Fefonz Quan: if stopping the search is the main step, most people are there because they nevr have started the search.
    Fefonz Quan: never*
    Zen Arado: not so sure Fef - people search in different places maybe
    Fefonz Quan: and yet the suffering is uncountable
    Pema Pera: I'm not saying that we should stop watching, or stop exploring -- I only suggest that we don't consider anything to be lacking, that we don't grasp for something outside ourselves
    Zen Arado: look for ways to be happy
    Bruce Mowbray: When Eden's birds fly together, shifting and synchronizing, are they "exploring" and "searching" - or are they playing with flight, or something else altogether?
    Fefonz Quan: do we grasp for something "inside" ourselves?
    Zen Arado: yes pema - thats the key maybe - outside ourselves
    Pema Pera: better not to grasp, just to pay attention, in playful and curious ways
    Zen Arado: looking to externals to provide happiness
    Maxine Walden: for me the grasping signals that I am trying to possess something, to concretize it as a thing to be possessed, rather than to be content with the searching, exploring
    Eliza Madrigal: A funny thing happened to me this week... I heard myself describing Miami, where I live... and felt sad... like I'd been caught murmuring about a dear friend. I realized I've been ignoring a dear friend... and then blaming the friend that I don't know them anymore...
    Pema Pera: yes, Maxine!
    Eliza Madrigal: I think it is a bit like that... I stopped exploring where I am
    Zen Arado: agree Maxine
    Pema Pera: very easy to do, Eliza!
    Zen Arado: brb
    Fefonz Quan: yes, content is a big issue here, though it sounds much more 'earthly' than other notions we use
    Maxine Walden: and perhaps my/our tendency toward possession comes when we have trouble appreciating the openness, the exploration...for me it seems that there is a natural entropic force, as it were, toward the concretization as when I am tired, pre-occupied...and it takes attentive care to counteract that almost gravitational force...(sorry for slipping toward metaphors from the physical world)
    Fefonz Quan: (don't be sorry, that's the ones we understand :))
    Maxine Walden: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    --BELL--
    Fefonz Quan: but let's take tiredness, when it's there, we are really tired, have no strength and sometimes no power to deal it "the world' and it's tasks
    Maxine Walden: agree, and then we gravitate toward the concrete, perhaps using more ancient coping/mental mechanisms
    Zen Arado: is it like acceptance then?
    Maxine Walden: relating to 'the world' as our ancestors may have...?
    Pema Pera: even when we are tired, there can be an awareness of being tired -- and the awareness is not necessarily tired
    Fefonz Quan is not sure we wan't to seee the world through our ancestors eyes
    Maxine Walden: agree, Pema, when we can maintain awareness we can resist the collapsing toward the concrete
    Fefonz Quan: that'sa a very interesting point pema - yet sometimes a certain feeling tend to 'overwhelm' our whole 'world'
    Fefonz Quan: and it's so hard to 'look beyond' it
    Pema Pera: sure, that happens, and we can watch that happening -- and perhaps learn to be a bit playful with it, as much as we can
    Pema Pera: little by little
    Bruce Mowbray: Even when I am crazy - or overwhelmed - there is a part of me witnessing, who is neither crazy nor overwhelmed.
    Zen Arado: if we can detach suffuciently from it
    Maxine Walden: agree, but for me, when I am 'in it' , that is 'in' the overwhelm it seems that there is no larger view...it takes me being very care-ful with myself to 'view' the overwhelm from a larger perspective
    Fefonz Quan: on the other hand - when we are happy and joyful - we like to be 'all joyful'
    Fefonz Quan: we don't want to detach from it, missing by that the whole experience
    Zen Arado: detach in the sense we aren't too caught up and identifying too much
    Zen Arado: ?
    Fefonz Quan: yes, but some say that than we are losing all the fun
    Zen Arado: can see detachment is dangerous too
    Fefonz Quan: so when we are 'playing' - do we need to eep a little watcher outside the play?
    Zen Arado: too like repressing?
    Fefonz Quan: keep?
    Zen Arado: think there is one anyway?
    Zen Arado: awareness
    Fefonz Quan: (of course we are deep inside the terminology of subject-object here, )
    Fefonz Quan: (should we pull out? :
    Fefonz Quan: :)
    Zen Arado: hard to talk without subject/object - the way language is structured
    Bruce Mowbray: when we "witness" ourselves -- our various parts doing different things -- we are both subject and object.
    Zen Arado: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: regarding awareness as something 'ours' to keep seems to be the same trap...
    Maxine Walden: :) Eliza
    Zen Arado: hmmm...maybe
    Fefonz Quan: it's like a field full of terminological traps here
    Zen Arado: me and mine
    Maxine Walden: the problem with a 'self' perhaps...getting into those traps
    Pema Pera: the most important thing is to just explore, play, see to what extent to can find moments in your experience that are less subject-object bound, times in which linear time seems less fixed, and start from there -- rather than from more philosophical questioning which is endless
    Maxine Walden: yes
    Zen Arado: yes Pema
    Pema Pera: as Maxine expressed so clearly -- questioning can close down as well as open up
    Eliza Madrigal: the philosophical questining is itself appearance?
    Zen Arado: "You are playing as if nothing is missing. What is more, you are playing as if nothing has ever been missing, in anyway."
    Zen Arado: love that
    Pema Pera: yes, Zen
    Pema Pera: we can question how to play better -- that opens the play
    Zen Arado: I always thought something was missing
    Zen Arado: still kepp thinking that
    Maxine Walden: know what you mean, Zen
    Zen Arado: 'if only'.....
    Fefonz Quan: what hardlewhat bothers me with 'nothing is missing', is that the other side of it is: and you have nothing gained...'
    --BELL--
    Maxine Walden: hmm, fef, say a bit more?
    Fefonz Quan: (to hear the sounds, of silence, choochoochoom)
    Maxine Walden: :) S & G
    Eliza Madrigal: perhaps 'if only' in reverse Zen ... what 'if' nothing has ever been missing or ever can be missing...
    Zen Arado: Hello darkness my old friend....
    Maxine Walden: (Simon and Garfinkle song)
    Maxine Walden: Garfunkle...
    Fefonz Quan: I'll try to explain it in very plain example: if i am not missing a new car (while nein need for one) - i am loosing the ownership of the one i have a like so much
    Zen Arado: if only I could believe that Eliza :)
    Eliza Madrigal: words of the prophets are written on the subway wall...
    Eliza Madrigal: =P~ Zen
    Maxine Walden: ...tenement halls...
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    Maxine Walden: ...whispering the sounds.....
    Pema Pera: "nothing missing" doesn't mean that, Fefonz, that is too literal . . . it means that at bottom, in what really counts, there is nothing missing
    Zen Arado: worries about dull passivity
    Pema Pera: did you really think we were talking about missing a car ???
    Fefonz Quan: ofcourse not, just for a rude example
    Pema Pera: okay :-)
    Fefonz Quan: what i wanted to point at, is that when i don't miss anything, i don't have anything wither
    Fefonz Quan: either
    Pema Pera: that's true
    Eliza Madrigal: in 'what we are' as in "drop what you have to see what you are".. there is nothing missing...
    Pema Pera: no ownership
    Eliza Madrigal: AH, yes Fef
    Pema Pera: no "have" only "is"
    Fefonz Quan: (or at least the meaning of what i have vanished with that of what i am missing)
    Fefonz Quan: I know, but i like what i have ! :)
    Zen Arado: but we want a little bit more :)
    Eliza Madrigal: and the practicalness of stepping into that... into 'playing as'...
    Zen Arado: so desire is the problem?
    Maxine Walden: desire and perhaps the fear of loss?
    Zen Arado: the basic message of BUddhism - desire creates suffering?
    Bruce Mowbray: Earlier in this session, Eliza was "missing" Miami. . .
    Fefonz Quan: for now i am content with what i have - so maybe more the fear of loss
    Eliza Madrigal: yes... right in my hands Bruce
    Zen Arado: " Can you drop remorse, regret, aspirations, wishes, in short any form of hope or fear, trading that all in for just `playing as Being?'
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    Zen Arado: hope you don't mind me quoting Pema?
    Maxine Walden: :)
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Fefonz Quan: a very good source for quality quoting :)
    Maxine Walden: indeed!
    Eliza Madrigal: It is wonderful to be content Fef... to appreciate what one 'has' and let it open up... open up perhaps to where it isn't 'had' but loved
    Zen Arado: are aspirations a good thing to drop - like having an aspiration to become an astrophysicist?
    Pema Pera: it all depends how you "wear" your aspirations, Zen
    Bruce Mowbray really likes Zen's question.
    Pema Pera: as long as you don't get tangled up in them, then of course they can be very inspiring
    Fefonz Quan: as-in inspiration :)
    Zen Arado: you would need so much dedication and single mindedness to achieve that
    Pema Pera: but if you try to "get" enlightenment, as a goal or trophy or something to put in your pocket, then that kind of aspiration can become a hindrance
    Pema Pera: or a lot of play, Zen
    Maxine Walden: another grasping and need to possess
    Zen Arado: ah ok - it's just waht you were best suited for then - a natural thing?
    Eliza Madrigal: Andrew Sullivan this week, in an interview, said that when he was diagnosed with HIV nearly twenty years ago, he began to ignore 'success' and began to zero in on excellence....
    Pema Pera: I didn't particularly feel I was trying so hard to become an astrophysicist, it was just all so fascinating, and I was grateful that people paid me to do my hobby!
    Zen Arado: HI DRuth
    Pema Pera: yes
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Druth :)
    Pema Pera: hi Druth!
    Fefonz Quan: hi Druth
    druth Vlodovic: hi all
    Eliza Madrigal: he had clarity because he dropped this idea of being a success...
    Zen Arado: I always have to work so hard to achieve things :(
    Bruce Mowbray: Does Andrew Sullivan's concept of "excellence' mean "doing the thing for its own sake - not for the sake of gaining something else"?
    Eliza Madrigal: yes... what made him sing, in a sense
    Zen Arado: maybe I'm doing the wrong things :)
    Eliza Madrigal: aarrgghhh zen!! hehehhe
    --BELL--
    Bruce Mowbray: Doing astrophysics for the sake of doing astrophysics.
    Zen Arado: astrophysics as play
    Bruce Mowbray: yes, indeed.
    Pema Pera: oh, very much so
    Maxine Walden: time has flown...need to go....thanks everyone...see you next time
    Pema Pera: I'll have to leave too
    Maxine Walden: bye all see you soon...
    Fefonz Quan: see you maxcine
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Maxine and Pema :)
    Pema Pera: we're taking the train back to the big city in a few mintus
    Zen Arado: thanks Pema, everyone
    Bruce Mowbray: Bye, Maxine
    Pema Pera: minutes
    Fefonz Quan: and Pema!
    Bruce Mowbray: Bye, Pema.
    Pema Pera: thank you all for joining us!
    Eliza Madrigal: OH, thought that wasn't til tomorrow! Thanks for making it today Pema
    Bruce Mowbray: THANKS!
    druth Vlodovic: bye max and pema
    Pema Pera: bfn
    Zen Arado: bye Pema, Maxine

    *I removed here one note from a participant that appeared late and didn't talk till now, and i didn't have the time to ask her for permission


    Fefonz Quan: I'll leave too. i'll stop the recording for now, and the GoC can get the rest of the recording for pab session.

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