2010.10.22 01:00 - Why we talk about the past so much

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    Wol Euler posted this in a hurry because people at the 1pm session wanted to read it. I'll comment and correct it later.


    Bertram Jacobus: hey freud ! :-)
    Freud Jungsten: siyo
    Wol Euler: this must be early for you, or very late.
    Bertram Jacobus: you can see today freud ? ;-9
    Freud Jungsten: Three AM... frowns
    Freud Jungsten: Yes... On a regular veiwer right now.
    Bertram Jacobus: great :-)
    Wol Euler: good :)
    Freud Jungsten: I have clinical insomnia, so when I can't sleep, I try SL sometimes.
    Wol Euler: sorry to hear it :(
    Freud Jungsten: No worries.. used to be much worse... went to a week long sleep clinic thing.
    Freud Jungsten: used to only get about 3:45 a night... now up to about 5:15.. so much better.
    Wol Euler: how many hours do you sleep, then?
    Freud Jungsten: If everything is perfect, abut 5 hours 15 min a night.
    Wol Euler: oh, I see! I thought you meant 5am
    Wol Euler: sorry
    Wol Euler: that's not much at all, but far better than 3:45, sure
    Freud Jungsten: Yes, it was rather debiliating...
    Wol Euler nods wide-eyed.
    Wol Euler: how much would you wish to sleep, if you could?
    Wol Euler: i.e. what's the deficit?
    Freud Jungsten: I have not idea really...
    Freud Jungsten: Maybe another 90 min or so.
    Freud Jungsten: NEver been able to sleep long enough to know what woudl feel right.
    Wol Euler: wow
    Wol Euler: that's terrible.
    Freud Jungsten: I just know what I get is not enough.
    Wol Euler: (IMHO YMMV etc)
    Freud Jungsten: The doctors say that for my circumstances, I should reasonable need about 7hours20 a night.
    Freud Jungsten: But then again, very few people get their healthy amount of sleep.
    Wol Euler nods.
    Wol Euler: you said you were in a sleep clinic?
    Freud Jungsten: I did a one week long sleep clinic a couple fo years ago.
    Freud Jungsten: They did some tests, watched me sleep and a lot of other things.
    Freud Jungsten: Gave me some pratical things to do... some diet changes etc.
    Freud Jungsten: So it got me 90 more a night.
    Wol Euler smiles.
    Wol Euler: now we just need to get you that much more again :)
    Freud Jungsten: That would be nice.
    Wol Euler checks in her pockets.
    Wol Euler: no, no extra sleep there.
    Freud Jungsten: The more I sleep, the less I remeber my dreams though... so a down side I guess.
    Wol Euler nods
    Wol Euler: may I ask, when is the trouble? Do yu have trouble getting to sleep, or staying asleep, or waking too early?
    Wol Euler: because I've heard of all three happening to people
    Freud Jungsten: For me, I just have issues getting to sleep.
    Freud Jungsten: It is worse just before my period though.
    Freud Jungsten: Once I get to sleep, I tend to do well though.
    Wol Euler nods.
    Freud Jungsten: A good amount of the time, if I have a nice long run about an hour before I want to sleep, that helps.
    Wol Euler: I was just thinking, I get a pretty good idea of particular Americans' sleep habits from how often we meet here at this time :)
    Freud Jungsten: I think I have managed to be here beofre at this time... frowns
    Wol Euler: yes, and Cal and Arch and Bruce sometimes. You'd be surprised how many people are awake inthe dark of the night at least once in a while
    Freud Jungsten: You do get to meet a few fooks you normally would not that is fro sure.
    Wol Euler: :)
    Wol Euler: I suppose SL is very good for insomniacs, they can be sure that *somebody* will be here to talk to
    Wol Euler: given the roundness of the world
    Freud Jungsten: One good thing about insomnia though is that I have lots of extra time to study... lol
    Freud Jungsten: True.
    Wol Euler: :)
    Freud Jungsten: I actually try to do my studiying when I am relatively rested... and save writing for when I am tired.... seems to work out better that way.
    Wol Euler smiles.
    Wol Euler: that sounds pretty sensible actually, insomnia or not
    Freud Jungsten: Maybe... but everyone learns differently.
    Wol Euler nods.
    Freud Jungsten: I have to look a lot of things up, so I need the brain power for that sort of thing... vrs writing which is less mentally taxing.
    Wol Euler: interesting, it's the opposite for me. I have to look up quotes while writing
    Freud Jungsten: Well, I have to look up words......
    Freud Jungsten: My courses are the limits of my English.
    Wol Euler: ah, ok, htat does of course make a differnce.
    Freud Jungsten: SO the vocabulary is stressing.
    Wol Euler: right
    Freud Jungsten: I like listening here as it takes me to part of English that I have not really touched before.
    Wol Euler smiles.
    Wol Euler: it has that affect on me too, actually. Though English is my native language :)
    Freud Jungsten: I don't find the discussions interesting though. maybe I have not been here for good ones.
    Freud Jungsten: But it is interesting to see what other people find interesting..... if that makes sense.
    Wol Euler: well, we could talk about that for hours :-/
    Wol Euler: and yes
    Bertram Jacobus: same here : it's my again and again occuring topic - the language - i fear already to bore the poeple with it or even worse : to bother in a way ...
    Wol Euler thwaps you with a cushion.
    Bertram Jacobus: hehe :-)
    Wol Euler: that's only in your head, bert.
    Wol Euler: as you saw at the retreat, right?
    Freud Jungsten: Most the talks that I have been here for have revolved around the nature of 'the past".
    Bertram Jacobus: and relating to the topics : i think, it is very much what we give in and how we participate
    Wol Euler nods. We talk a lot about time and where "now" is.
    Freud Jungsten: Have not been in on a "lanaguage" one yet though.
    Bertram Jacobus: yes : may be we create our worlds very much ...
    Bertram Jacobus: you nod wol ? when you say we talk about the now and freud says so much words about the past ? :-9
    Freud Jungsten: I just find those sorts of discussion uninteresting as there is no consequence to finding anything out.
    Wol Euler: oh, I disagree :)
    Wol Euler: the consequence is that you can live more easily with the past if you see that it doesn't actually have a grip on you :)
    Wol Euler: my experience, YMMV
    Freud Jungsten: Please tell me about that.
    Freud Jungsten: I don't know what you mean.
    Bertram Jacobus: may be the talks are not far and deep enough for you freud ? for me, for example - i consider myself as a also quite simple person. sometimes too complicated, may be. yes. but - when i can talk about topics in a middle way related to the amount of thoughts - i'm happy ... ;-)
    Wol Euler: I look at my past and see a particular action, which I feel was wrong and which still resonates
    Wol Euler: If I think htat the past defines me, I will always look at that and say "I am a bad person and will be so in future too"
    Wol Euler: and that gives other people control over my life.
    Wol Euler: even if the other person is me aged 11 :)
    Bertram Jacobus: ;-)
    Wol Euler: if you think that the past is *here* and that it must affect us, then you are caught
    Wol Euler: but there is an alternative
    Freud Jungsten: To me that is an odd way of thinking....
    Freud Jungsten: I am fundamentally happy with who I am, so all that I was is part of that, so I cant complain.
    Wol Euler: you can also look at that event and say "yes, it was pretty shitty. But that was then, and this is now. You have the power to change. You don't have to do that again."
    Wol Euler: or "you don't have to let that happen again"
    Bertram Jacobus: one point here may be that "dropping" ...
    Wol Euler: that is the use of it, to me.
    Freud Jungsten: I guess I would just have to equate that with the ability to forgive... including yourself.
    Wol Euler: exactly.
    Wol Euler: say more about dropping, bert?
    Freud Jungsten: So debating the nature of the past when you can just forgive yourself, seems a bit excessive.
    Bertram Jacobus: also the idea that being may be more interesting and even more satisfying so to say then the ego or i ...
    Wol Euler: some people cant do that, though. For them, this is a back door to arrive at that point
    Wol Euler: most formal religions, for example, don't want people to forgive themselves.
    Wol Euler: the priest does that, if you are lucky
    Wol Euler: (for loose values of "priest")
    Freud Jungsten: Interesting, sort of like debating the need for a sledgehammer when you need a tackhammer and have one handy.
    Wol Euler: *you* have a tackhammer
    Wol Euler: you could say "so does everyone" and yes, that tool is available to anyone who knows that htey have it
    Wol Euler: but people get caught up in their pasts including ideas and memories and wishes, and they cannot see all of their possible tools
    Freud Jungsten: I find that very interesting.
    Freud Jungsten: I tend to deal with things smiply though.. just my style.
    Wol Euler smiles.
    Freud Jungsten: It does not surprise me to find that here though..... and this is going to sound bad... but I noticed that a lot of "philosphers" tend to be afflent white people.
    Wol Euler grins
    Wol Euler: it does go together with having leisure time, yes.
    Wol Euler: as does using SL.
    Wol Euler: compared to the majority of the world population even the poorest of us here is immeasurably wealthy
    Freud Jungsten: True... so the sample here is maybe a bit scewed.
    Freud Jungsten: Very much so.
    Freud Jungsten: However, I did find the previous though much more interesting that my entire college level study.
    Wol Euler: :)
    Freud Jungsten: Pointless... but the easiest As ever.
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    Wol Euler: hard to know hwat college is really for.
    Freud Jungsten: Well.... I am certianly learning my focus area.
    Freud Jungsten: But thos classes seemed only set up to preach and employ people.
    Wol Euler: ideally it is to learn how to learn, how to think for yourself, how to gather data, process it into information, and draw conclusions.
    Wol Euler: but I'd agree that many courses in many coleges don't fit that pattern
    Freud Jungsten: That was exaclty what my philosophy classes were not.
    Wol Euler: :(
    Bertram Jacobus: tz
    Freud Jungsten: Their aim seemed more like political indoctrination to me... even noticed when I agreed with them... lol
    Freud Jungsten: But as I said, easy As... all you had to do was admit that philosphy proffesors where god, Bush was evil and relitious people where idits and you got great grades... lovely bit of group think...
    Wol Euler: heh
    Wol Euler: mind you, bush was evil.
    Freud Jungsten: Might still be, never met the guy...
    Wol Euler: no, cheney and rove were evil, bush was too stupid for that
    Wol Euler: anyway.
    Wol Euler grins.
    Freud Jungsten: Only slight worse that what we have now though.
    Freud Jungsten: At least you knew what you had in that crowd.
    Wol Euler nods.
    Wol Euler: I'm going to hve to leave in three minutes. Work calls.
    Freud Jungsten: The rediculous levels of hypocracy in this current bunch is good for a few laughs if nothing else.
    Freud Jungsten: OK.. ciao.
    Bertram Jacobus: yes wol tyvm for having been here - was a great pleasure as always :-)
    Wol Euler: how do you feel about this discussion, freud?
    Bertram Jacobus: and have a nice day
    Wol Euler: compared to others.
    Freud Jungsten: Well, you actually asnwered my question... the first time in about 10 visits.
    Freud Jungsten: So thanks.
    Wol Euler: O.O
    Wol Euler: I'm sorry to hear that, freud.
    Freud Jungsten: I think maybe I am not clear ... as I said, this put me at the edge of my English.
    Wol Euler: Questions usually do get ansswered here, but sometimes they get lost in the flow of overlapping conversations
    Freud Jungsten: So maybe my question was not understould... or my perserpective was far away enough to not be relevent.
    Wol Euler shakes her head. I would hope that nothing is that far away from us.
    Freud Jungsten: And also, my world view is probably vastly different than most folks here as well.. so ralating may be odd.
    Wol Euler: so if you feel that it's happening again, just ask once more
    Wol Euler: because questions do get lost in the flow
    Freud Jungsten: I have resated my questions, to no avail.. but I mostly come to listen anway...
    Freud Jungsten: Usually at work when I am on here, so I cant always participate actively.
    Wol Euler: Freud, just for clarity, I've been at quite a few sessions with you and I cannot recall any occasion on which that happened.
    Wol Euler: Perhaps you should ask more directly?
    Wol Euler: but I really must go. Bye for now.
    Freud Jungsten: Maybe... I am still getting used to the forum.
    Freud Jungsten: do na da go hv i
    Bertram Jacobus: bfn wol *wave*
    Bertram Jacobus: ok - then i'll leave too - have a nice time freud !? ...
    Freud Jungsten: Ciao
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