2010.10.24 13:00 - Pure Altruism. Is there such a thing?

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Aphrodite Macbain. The comments are by Aphrodite Macbain.


    Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Wol
    Wol Euler: hello aphrodite
    Wol Euler: all alone?
    Aphrodite Macbain: Glad to see you. I was feeling very lonely
    Wol Euler: awww
    Wol Euler gives your hand a squeeze
    Aphrodite Macbain: I told Maxine I would tak her session.
    Aphrodite Macbain squeezes back
    Wol Euler: it's very odd for nobody to come on a Sunady
    Wol Euler: *sunday
    Aphrodite Macbain: Isn't it? We were very busy this morning at the Guardian session
    Aphrodite Macbain: maybe they meetinged out
    Wol Euler: heh
    Wol Euler: I know that feeling
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey the both of you
    Wol Euler: hello yaku
    Yakuzza Lethecus: can you rebake wol ?
    Aphrodite Macbain: I am in the middle of reading a very interesting article on whether people do generous things out of altruism or self interest. "Altruism" by Stephen Stich, John M. Doris & Erica Roedder

    Wol Euler: heh
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Yaku
    Wol Euler: do tell
    Aphrodite Macbain: There are two camps, of course.
    Aphrodite Macbain: Some people, like Thos Hobbes, say that everything we do is out of self interest since it is voluntary and satisfies our needs
    Aphrodite Macbain: Thomas
    Aphrodite Macbain: Others disagree. I find Thomas and his gang rather depressing
    Wol Euler nods.
    Aphrodite Macbain: what do you think?
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hi druth
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hi druth
    druth Vlodovic: hey guys
    Wol Euler: I'm inclined to say that it doesn't matter so much why somebody does a good thing, as that the good thing gets done.
    Aphrodite Macbain: ah-the utilitarian approach.
    Wol Euler: people like Malthus assume that goodness must be painful, and that pleasure (enjoyment) must be bad.
    Wol Euler: which I think is crap (pardon my french)
    Aphrodite Macbain: "But at least since Plato's classic discussion in the second book of the Republic, debate has raged over why people behave in these ways. Are their motives altruistic, or is their behavior ultimately motivated by self-interest?"
    Aphrodite Macbain: It's an ongoing discussion that will probably go on for ever
    Wol Euler: yep
    druth Vlodovic: if I help someone and it makes me feel good, is this selfish?
    Wol Euler: IMHO: no
    Wol Euler: probably no :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: according to some - yes
    Wol Euler: if you did it in order totachieve that good feeling, it's borderline
    Yakuzza Lethecus: but someone might do something good just to "appear" good in the media
    Wol Euler: but if the good feeling arises naturally, then why not let it arise
    druth Vlodovic: to think it is is damaging, people walk about being miserable all the time because it is "right" which is the opposite of true
    Aphrodite Macbain: Because you are acting out of your own values - it would be painful for you to do otherwise
    Aphrodite Macbain: This is what Hobbes said: "No man giveth but with intention of good to himself, because gift is voluntary; and of all voluntary acts, the object is to every man his own good; of which, if men see they shall be frustrated, there will be no beginning of benevolence or trust, nor consequently of mutual help. (Leviathan (1651), Ch. 15)
    Wol Euler: I think we all need to define our positions a little more carefully, starting with myself.
    Aphrodite Macbain: OK
    Yakuzza Lethecus: it's tricky. Even what´s "good" is often questionable
    Wol Euler: for me it depends on the nature of that "good" and from whom it comes
    Wol Euler: if the good is external to both giver and recipient, as in the case of getting praise in the media, then I'd agree that it is probably wrong.
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes. but the question is - are you doing it to satisfy yourself, what ever that "good" is.
    Wol Euler: if *I* satisfy myself that way without either taking from you (praise, love, approval) then why is that bad?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i am actually uncertain about most ppl including myself if there is "true altruism"
    druth Vlodovic: there is
    Yakuzza Lethecus: even those who believe that true altruism exists
    Aphrodite Macbain: I don't think it's a moral question of whether it is good or bad,
    but whether it is truly altruistic
    Wol Euler: the border condition to me (thinking out loud) is whether the goodness comes from within, or if I *take* it from outside
    druth Vlodovic: only the myth of perpetual misery says otherwise
    Wol Euler: then I wonder what truly altruistic means :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: to be completely selfless
    druth Vlodovic: to be miserable increases the amount of misery in the world, so what could possibly make it a desireable state?
    Wol Euler nods to druth. Right on.
    Wol Euler: exactly right
    Aphrodite Macbain: nobody says you should be miserable
    Wol Euler: Hobbes hated happiness and feared pleasure.
    Wol Euler: IMHO YMMV :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: I think it's a little about what Buddhism teachs. To have no attachment, personal or emotional, to anything
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hehe, being in a stoic state of mine can also be comfortable
    Wol Euler: but if I can only be altruistic if I do not feel happiness in what I do?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: I mean does pleasure mean that we have to yell the funniest song? can't a calm mediatative state of appreciation also be a great pleasure with internal happiness ?
    Wol Euler: yes
    Wol Euler: hello ara
    arabella Ella: hiya everyone!
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey ara
    Aphrodite Macbain: I hold no position on this yet. I'll just keep reading this 92 page article until I get a sense of all the perspectives
    Wol Euler nods
    druth Vlodovic: people naturally derive pleasure from the pleasure of others
    Yakuzza Lethecus: can you give a reference on that article ?
    Aphrodite Macbain: hello arabella
    druth Vlodovic: and pain from other's pain
    druth Vlodovic: it is only a corruption of human nature that makes things otherwise
    Aphrodite Macbain: and there is nothing wrong with deriving pleasure out of doing good. All they're saying is that because we derive pleasure we are not totally altruistic
    Wol Euler: then I wonder whether total altruism ever can exist
    druth Vlodovic: but we are, we take pleasure in being altruistic because of the same prompting that caused us to be altruistic in the first place
    Aphrodite Macbain: someone who has no ego at all can perhaps experience it
    Yakuzza Lethecus: someone who found the buddha nature and has no need of externalized happyiness might be able to be altruistic
    Aphrodite Macbain: I find it is a mean-spirited way to look at doing good but perhaps it gives us greater insight into ourselves and what motivates us
    Yakuzza Lethecus: since he had no need to "gain" anything more and is just doing right
    Aphrodite Macbain: right Yaku, I think you've hit on something
    arabella Ella: pleasure and pain may motivate or de-motivate a number of ppl but in the real work that position is very difficult to maintain ... realistically
    Aphrodite Macbain: could you continue arabella...?
    arabella Ella: yes of course
    druth Vlodovic: the concept benefits those who seek to profit by pain, by making people feel guilty about feeling pleasure from the pleasure of altruism they then feel guilty about altruism, and thus do less
    arabella Ella: there are so many complex and indeterminate situations in real life that make this position impossible
    arabella Ella: how do you calculate pleasure?
    Aphrodite Macbain: I dont think that was their intention
    arabella Ella: is intense pleasure for one person greater or lesser than medium pleasure for more people?
    arabella Ella: and if you are in a situation where you can only save one person's life out of two who you hold equally dear? Whose do you save?
    Aphrodite Macbain: I accept the fact that I get pleasure out of doing good to others, of even sacrificing my benefits for others, but I'm ready to accept that I am not being totally altruistic
    Wol Euler: nor should you. IMO
    Aphrodite Macbain: that I get some form of pleasure, some ego-boost
    Aphrodite Macbain: It is not about judging people, just observing what is
    Aphrodite Macbain: if it is, is
    arabella Ella nods
    Wol Euler: sorry, mis-read you. scrub that.
    arabella Ella: yes pleasure is a great motivator
    druth Vlodovic: based on the concept that pleasure and self-care are bad, ideals promoted by those who seek to control others by making them unsure of themselves,
    arabella Ella: and what would life be like if there were to be no pleasure at all ... i dunno ... horrible i guess
    druth Vlodovic: lol, now I'm repeating myself, I'll stop
    Wol Euler nods to druth
    arabella Ella: why is pleasure bad?
    Aphrodite Macbain: no one said pleasure or self care are bad druth
    Aphrodite Macbain: it just is
    druth Vlodovic: lots of people say it is
    druth Vlodovic: why is selfish a bad word? (and now I've broken my promise)
    Aphrodite Macbain: I have a rotten cold and I'm going to retreat from this really interesting conversation and lie down. TTFN .
    Wol Euler: hello mick
    Mickorod Renard: Hi
    Wol Euler: bye aphro, get well soon.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey mick
    arabella Ella: Hiya Mick
    Mickorod Renard: bye aphro
    Wol Euler: I hope we weren't too harsh
    Yakuzza Lethecus: take care aphro
    arabella Ella: i hope we werent
    arabella Ella: bye aphro
    Aphrodite Macbain: No, not at all, I just don't think I made myself clearly understood. Remember, these aren't my ideas. I just raised the issue for discussion because I was reading about this subject!
    druth Vlodovic: bye aph
    Mickorod Renard: lots of colds around at the moment
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bye
    druth Vlodovic: if I make a person feel better and that person smiles, and I feel good from the smile, and fufilled by helping, does that diminish the value of what I did? my position is "no"
    Wol Euler: bye
    arabella Ella: i dont think there is anything wrong in considering pleasure
    Wol Euler: agreed
    arabella Ella: and what would life be with no pleasure ... arghhhh!
    druth Vlodovic: my problem, I think, is that I do understand aphrodite's position, and it angers me that such a concept has been promoted so successfully for so long
    Wol Euler: I was trying to figure out why this is so emotionally loaded for me too :)

    Button pushing

    Wol Euler: because it definitely pushed some buttons
    Mickorod Renard: I have deliberated over this subject too
    Mickorod Renard: its a bit awkward
    druth Vlodovic: lol, "emotions help a person avoid feeling" an interesting concept, that's why I announced that I was angry, it does help defuse my own feelings a little
    Yakuzza Lethecus: it depends on specific cases i guess, a politician shows himself with a child and might even really make "this child" happy
    Yakuzza Lethecus: and wants to be seen with it and appear in the media
    arabella Ella: i am not sure i can recognise any problem so if someone could explain it to me i would really appreciate!
    Yakuzza Lethecus: it's a good thing for "this child"
    Mickorod Renard: I just feel glad that there is a sort of reward for doing good, that of feeling happy inside
    Wol Euler: I'm not sure if I could express the "problem" fairly :)
    arabella Ella: i see no wrong in sometimes considering the happiness of our own selves, our own being
    arabella Ella: besides of course others
    Yakuzza Lethecus: it's not easy to describe in it´s full complexity
    druth Vlodovic: the problem is that if a person does a "good deed" for non-altruistic reasons then soon the welfare of others will no longer be beneficial to the person
    arabella Ella: why not?
    druth Vlodovic: eventually the politician will have to allocate funds, perhaps he will get more votes by reducing taxes and rescind what he did for the child
    Wol Euler: this is black-and-white thinking.
    Wol Euler: that's what annoys me
    arabella Ella nods
    Wol Euler: if a person feels good about doing good, then that is ALL that they can possibly feel and also the ONLY possible reason they could ever have or have had.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: It helps us getting to a more complex model wol
    arabella Ella: and if that is all a person can feel but they do good what is wrong with that?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: it´s not only about feeling good about doing good it's about "gain" of doing good
    arabella Ella: brb
    druth Vlodovic: people are more complex than that Wol, a person might feel bad by getting sworn at for doing good, but still feel satisfaction that they did do good
    Mickorod Renard: there is also the alternative view "that of the person recieving your compassion may not be due that assistance because of karma"
    Wol Euler: absolutely.
    Wol Euler: that is my point.
    Mickorod Renard: yes Druth
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i think we might not make progress in the discussion without clear examples - that I can´t provide :P
    arabella Ella: back
    Mickorod Renard: who knows what the big story is, I think as a whole its all very complex and interwoven
    Wol Euler: wb
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i have the feeling we all have different things in mind :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: wb ara :)
    Wol Euler: very probably, yaku :)
    Wol Euler points to the blind men and the elephant
    druth Vlodovic: pick a simple one, a person you sort of know looks sad, so you go ask them what's wrong
    arabella Ella: well there is personal pleasure and pleasure to others i guess, right?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: I got the snake!
    Wol Euler: yep :()
    druth Vlodovic: so why do that?
    Mickorod Renard: yes, if i show compassion to them they may leave me something in their will
    druth Vlodovic: but imagine yourself in that situation, is that what you are thinking?
    arabella Ella: i would like everyone in the world to be happier ... less problems all around
    arabella Ella: more harmony
    Mickorod Renard: there is always that little ditty about do unto others what u would like done to yourself,,,or something like that. I of course have to constrain myself lots
    druth Vlodovic: be honest, don't pre-judge yourself harshly
    Yakuzza Lethecus: listening to GW Bush the invasion of IRAQ sounded like an altruistic act to bring democracy and harmonie there, but is that the truth" ?
    Wol Euler: no rubbing up against random strangers, mick?
    Mickorod Renard: :) he he he
    arabella Ella giggles
    arabella Ella: or chatting up random strangers perhaps?
    Mickorod Renard: as if i would
    arabella Ella: as many have wont to do
    druth Vlodovic: international politics is a complex example, nothing is done for only one reason, even in the simplest case
    Wol Euler: yep
    Mickorod Renard: true
    Mickorod Renard: there is often some form of exploitation
    arabella Ella: ok so if you are at a train station and someone asks you for money and they look poor and whatever ... what do you do ... and why?
    druth Vlodovic: if I approach a sad person I am first off concerned, secondly a bit fearful of the reaction, also hopeful that I might help, and perhaps hoping I might have a good conversation
    Yakuzza Lethecus: someone might not intentionelly be in 'the will" of someone else but if everyone is whom you think that is exploited that person and you are not but showed compassion and helped this person all the time, will you be unhappy is one of the questions
    druth Vlodovic: but all hopes are malleable, the primary reason is concern for another human being becasue she is a human being
    Mickorod Renard: that was a bit of a lot to take on board yaku
    Mickorod Renard: need to read it a few times
    arabella Ella: why should you be unhappy for helping someone else?
    Wol Euler: no reason that I can see :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: when you put it that way it sounds simple ara :)
    Mickorod Renard: I think it depends who u are, if u are a compassionate person then the reason for anything is insignificanmt
    Yakuzza Lethecus: in my example it was that the ppl with bad behavior" are better off
    arabella Ella: ok the only reason i can think of is if it ends up being a scam which could be a possibility of course
    Wol Euler: ok, let's turn this around. Is it WRONG to do a good action that I will enjoy doing?
    Wol Euler: (taking "enjoy" loosely)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: will you feel sad about advantaged ppl with bad behavior ?
    Mickorod Renard: no, imo
    arabella Ella: not wrong at all IMHO Wol
    druth Vlodovic: no...but
    Mickorod Renard: that was to wol
    arabella Ella: why but?
    Wol Euler: expand, please, druth?
    arabella Ella: i dont see why one should not enjoy doing a good action
    druth Vlodovic: if you find that you didn't enjoy it *this* time do you get angry, or make it less of a good deed in order to get your enjoyment
    arabella Ella: the opposite of enjoy is to feel bored or fed up or nasty about doing it or indifferent which is even worse
    Mickorod Renard: I may feel anoyed at advantaged people with bad behavior
    Wol Euler: ok, then let's step it up once more. Is it better to not perform a good action because I would not be doing it altruistically?
    Wol Euler: If I can see that I cannot do X without feeling good about it, should I therefore not do X?
    arabella Ella: depends on what X is

    Foodbanks for example

    druth Vlodovic: lets say you work at a food bank, and expectation is gratitude from the "customers" but what if you don't get any gratitude, do you get snarly?
    arabella Ella: depends
    Mickorod Renard: I think its good to do a good act regardless of motives
    Wol Euler: well, there we have to be careful. If there is expectation of a reward from outside of yourself, the you are not altruistic
    Wol Euler: IMHO YMMV
    druth Vlodovic: going to a foodbank is an awful feeling
    Mickorod Renard: sometimes people know even without a heart, and perhaps later find a heart
    Wol Euler: somebody who expects gratitude has an attachment that needs loosening. Somebody who happens to feel good about working at the food bank does not.
    Wol Euler shuts up.
    arabella Ella: it is probably the expectation of certain action from others that is unrealistic ... why should we expect certain behaviour from others?
    Wol Euler: yep
    Yakuzza Lethecus: but that "awful feeling" must not be the case if you did it 10 times and got even friends there
    arabella Ella agrees with Wol here about attachment etc.
    druth Vlodovic: perhaps it would have gotten easier in time, fortunately I never had the chance to find out
    arabella Ella: so what is your experience druth?
    arabella Ella: if you don't mind my asking?
    druth Vlodovic: I was a customer btw :( it felt very negative, and I had a hard time not getting snarly with people who went about saying "This is just an emergency thing, you shouldn't get used to coming here." Seriously, I could have bitten the bastard
    druth Vlodovic: if I didn't know that I wouldn't have cared what he thought
    arabella Ella nods
    arabella Ella: but
    arabella Ella: isnt this a sort of game?
    arabella Ella: which people play?
    Mickorod Renard: how do y mean ara?
    arabella Ella: ok
    arabella Ella: so if you have 'needs'
    Yakuzza Lethecus: I must go to bed :(
    arabella Ella: which are meant to be 'temporary'
    Yakuzza Lethecus: take care everyone
    Wol Euler: bye yaku, take care
    arabella Ella: those providing for those needs
    Mickorod Renard: nite Yaku
    arabella Ella: say so and try to stop you from becoming a regular
    druth Vlodovic: I felt that they were being superior and condescending, but I also knew that that may not have been a fair evaluation
    arabella Ella: while at the same time knowing that it is likely you will become a regular anyway
    Wol Euler nods.
    druth Vlodovic: it is a bad way
    arabella Ella: it is all a game
    Mickorod Renard: I see ara
    Wol Euler: it'a vicious and nasty and demeaning game
    druth Vlodovic: those most likely to be affected are those most legitimately in need of help
    arabella Ella: oh yes i agree druth
    arabella Ella: but there are many levels of understanding
    Mickorod Renard: I wouldnt have thought of it as a game, but yes, some sort of gentle persuasion maybe
    arabella Ella: not just the surface one
    Mickorod Renard: it depends if they also offer some path
    druth Vlodovic: maybe it was a defensive reaction to seeing so many people who could do better taking advantage (unfairly) of the service, or self-inflicting the circumstances that caused them to need it
    arabella Ella: not exactly defensive druth
    Mickorod Renard: I am looking from a different perspective-like soup kitchen in london-I see there are differences
    arabella Ella: more likely one which they mistakenly thought may encourage some not to seek that path in the future due to perceived lack of resources which was not the real way things were
    arabella Ella: limited resources in other words
    Mickorod Renard: but if u are in africa-then seeing westerners dishing food out when one may percieve the problem emenating from western exploitation may be frustrating
    Mickorod Renard: is that more in line?
    arabella Ella: ah the thing about helping others is
    arabella Ella: give them a fishing rod ... not give them fish
    arabella Ella: so they will learn to go find their own fish in the future
    druth Vlodovic: but first you poison their river
    Wol Euler: hehehehehhe
    druth Vlodovic: lol, I suspect we are veering off topic
    Mickorod Renard: yea, and demand licence fee's for fishing
    Mickorod Renard: at exhorbitant prices
    druth Vlodovic: though I suppose this is a reason we should be fearful of "altruistic" actions without altruistic motivations
    arabella Ella: ah ... no comment at this stage!
    druth Vlodovic: the actions get corrupted
    Mickorod Renard: I see some of this- like how markets are created by the rich
    Mickorod Renard: markets as in new forms of commercialism
    druth Vlodovic: so if we expect to get back from altruistic actions, and we don't (usually thew case) then we feel justified in taking
    Wol Euler: if we expect to get back, then the action wasn't altruistic
    druth Vlodovic: our fishers are ungrateful so we feel it is only right to jack up fishing license fees
    arabella Ella: noooooo
    arabella Ella: one has a choice in life as one chooses to take action
    arabella Ella: one can beg and ask for food
    arabella Ella: or one could learn to grow food or find a job regardless and earn money to buy food
    Mickorod Renard: I am getting lost in this
    arabella Ella: those who give
    arabella Ella: may receive some sort of pleasure in giving
    arabella Ella: but what is wrong with that?
    Wol Euler: nothing at all
    Wol Euler: if you receive from yorself.
    arabella Ella: as long as they are doing the right thing in helping others less fortunate
    Mickorod Renard: I do get suspicious when someone offers me something
    druth Vlodovic: if a person can convince others that there is no such thing as pure altruism then it is easier to demand back from the beneficiaries
    Wol Euler: if you expect a return from OUTSIDE, then it is not altruistic
    arabella Ella agrees with Wol
    Mickorod Renard: if I give a little love I dont see what the cost is
    druth Vlodovic: personal risk
    Mickorod Renard: if they smile then that is a huge reward for me
    Mickorod Renard: unfortunatly I am naive and a bit simple
    Wol Euler: long may you remain so, mick :)
    Mickorod Renard: ty:)
    Wol Euler: and I agree
    arabella Ella nods too!
    druth Vlodovic: the reward still comes from inside yourself, since the person's smile is a natural reaction, though sometimes we do smile to show gratitude, rather han because we feel happy
    Wol Euler nods.
    Mickorod Renard: I think its more of a quicker high if you see an immediate response
    arabella Ella: intuitively we can somehow tell what the reaction is ... a genuine smile for example
    Mickorod Renard: but I wouldnt do something I see as positive on the basis of a reward even if it's from me
    Mickorod Renard: but I may judge what action to take based on what appears to please people
    Mickorod Renard: so its a sort of loop
    arabella Ella: BUT
    arabella Ella: imagine kids
    Wol Euler: that's fine, I think, as long as you don't expect to gain fom them for it
    arabella Ella: ask them to do something and offer them a monetary reward ... that is how unfortunately we condition them
    druth Vlodovic: I almost never reward mine with money, or anything, except to mow the lawn, and that hardly ever gets done in time :/
    Mickorod Renard: I know the feeling Druth
    Mickorod Renard: :)
    druth Vlodovic: though I do imply reward sometimes "You want to wear clothes? Then fold the laundry!"
    Wol Euler: "you don't feel like cutting the lawn. that's fine. I don't feel like making dinner."
    druth Vlodovic: kids are IMHO both selfish and altruistic
    Wol Euler: (parent said to kid)
    arabella Ella: well the other day i needed to wash my car
    arabella Ella: and the kids in my street said they would do it but for money :)
    arabella Ella: entrepreneurship at its best
    arabella Ella: i would yes but a dirty car depreciates quicker and could give me more expenses in long run
    druth Vlodovic: but you would have lived even if your car stayed dirty
    Mickorod Renard: I sometimes wonder whether compassion is something that has to be realized and is not a natural human attribute
    druth Vlodovic: well, I don't do that WOL, that's more like a guilt trip, and kind of unreasonable
    Mickorod Renard: ok,,i need to go home but ty for the conversation
    druth Vlodovic: bye mick
    Wol Euler: 'night mick. take care
    Wol Euler: actually I should go too, it's getting late
    arabella Ella: i must go too!
    Mickorod Renard: bye,,and stay positive everyone,,thats an order
    Wol Euler: this was an interesting conversation, I'm glad Aprho started it.
    druth Vlodovic: so it's monetary gain you want? and on the back of child labour
    Wol Euler: goodnight, be altruistic :)
    arabella Ella nods
    arabella Ella: nite everyone!
    arabella Ella: no druth
    druth Vlodovic: I'll have to apologize to her, it just hit some buttons I'm afraid
    arabella Ella: sorry got to get that straight
    arabella Ella: i dont want child labour at all i think that is despicable
    druth Vlodovic: I was kidding ara
    arabella Ella: i just gave an example of what kids are like today
    druth Vlodovic: I forgot my smiley :)
    arabella Ella: :)

    washing cars for fun and profit

    arabella Ella: but i must admit when i was a child we would have loved to gain a few cents from washing a car but never had the opportunity!
    druth Vlodovic: I suspect kids have always been like that
    arabella Ella: there were few cars around in those days
    arabella Ella: and people had more time to care for them
    druth Vlodovic: but when you did wash a car it was a family car I bet, and you probably had fun doing it
    druth Vlodovic: yes
    arabella Ella: ah ... i never have fun washing cars!
    arabella Ella: not my type of fun
    arabella Ella: more of a duty that has to be done
    druth Vlodovic: no? my kids were more enthusiastic than good when young, we used to have driveway shoveling parties at 5:00am
    arabella Ella giggles
    arabella Ella: what fun that sounds like
    druth Vlodovic: it was,
    arabella Ella: sure
    druth Vlodovic: we got shovels for everyone, and they would make little hills to slide on
    arabella Ella: but the older we get the more we understand what we enjoy doing and what we dont
    druth Vlodovic: I suspect we just stop doing things we like
    arabella Ella: and doing stuff with the rest of the family and with a community is great
    arabella Ella: doing stuff alone is different
    druth Vlodovic: and because we "have to"
    arabella Ella: I disagree about doing stuff we like doing
    arabella Ella: we never stop doing things we enjoy doing ... we are motivated to do things we enjoy doing of course
    druth Vlodovic: slides are always fun, but you seldom see adults on them
    druth Vlodovic: ambarassment sets in
    arabella Ella: i dont see why adults should not go on slides too :)
    arabella Ella: i always say ... nurture the child within!
    arabella Ella: i must go now it is very late here
    arabella Ella: bye for now and thanks for the chat!
    druth Vlodovic: ok, sweet dreams
    arabella Ella: thanks you too when it is your bedtime!
    druth Vlodovic: :)

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