2010.11.05 01:00 - Trains and planes and socialism

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    Wol Euler was guardian for this session, in which we saw a susprising side of Freud Jungsten.


    Wol Euler: hello stevie
    stevenaia Michinaga: Greetings
    stevenaia Michinaga: from the bearly awake
    stevenaia Michinaga: busy session?
    Wol Euler: ha. just you.
    stevenaia Michinaga: is that your winter fur?
    Wol Euler grins
    Wol Euler: keeps the important bits warm
    stevenaia Michinaga: smiles
    stevenaia Michinaga: things slowing down in RL?
    Wol Euler: alas no
    Wol Euler: but I'm off to Japan for a fortnight in two weeks
    stevenaia Michinaga: wow, work or play?
    Wol Euler: play, plus talking to Pema and Kiremimi about SL-ness
    stevenaia Michinaga: smiles, wonderful
    stevenaia Michinaga: have you been there before?
    Wol Euler: no, my first trip.
    Wol Euler: I've wanted to go since I was a small child.
    stevenaia Michinaga: what an opportunity
    Wol Euler: really
    Wol Euler: I feel very lucky, and quite excited.
    stevenaia Michinaga: seems good things do come to those who wait
    Wol Euler: and I keep forgetting and re-reminding myself to buy a damned JapanRail pass already!
    stevenaia Michinaga: no time like the present, can you buy it online (I'm just full of cliche's tonight)
    Wol Euler: probably, but it's just as easy to do downtown since I have to go past the train station anyway
    stevenaia Michinaga: you have a japanese rail pass store?
    Wol Euler laughs.
    Wol Euler: right next to the kleenex recycling plant
    stevenaia Michinaga: couldn't even imagine that in or anything close in the use :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: laughs
    Wol Euler: well, public transport is alive and well in Europe
    Wol Euler: the networks are all interwoven
    Wol Euler: I'm sure that either the ticket office or the in-station travel service will be able to sell me that
    stevenaia Michinaga: seems like many rail initiatives in the US will come to a grinding halt after this past election
    Wol Euler nods.
    Wol Euler: I can understand why the top 0.1 percent of the population (by income) vote the way they do, but why does everyone else fall for it?
    stevenaia Michinaga: sheep
    Wol Euler: "Vote for me and you too will become a multi-billionaire!" "Oh, ok, that sounds realistic."
    stevenaia Michinaga: there is no long term view here
    Wol Euler: hello freud
    Wol Euler: ooh, new hair!
    Wol Euler: red today
    Freud Jungsten: osiyo
    stevenaia Michinaga: they are hungry and don;t want the food in front of them cause it does not taste good, so something else must be better
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Freud
    Freud Jungsten: heya
    Freud Jungsten: what did I miss?
    stevenaia Michinaga: a Freudian slip around you takes on a whole new meaning
    Wol Euler: very little, I sat alone for an hour.
    Wol Euler: we were talking about trains and politics
    Freud Jungsten: lol.. sorry to hear that.
    Freud Jungsten: Have any good conversations with yourself?
    Wol Euler: actually yes :)
    Freud Jungsten: Trains good politics bad.
    stevenaia Michinaga: nods
    Wol Euler: I spent the time blogging and posting on flickr
    Wol Euler: and doing some scripting tutoring
    Freud Jungsten: Wll that is something then.
    Freud Jungsten: You are clever to do that stuff.
    Freud Jungsten: I loved taking the train on my visit to Europe.
    Wol Euler smiles modestly. We all have things that we are good at, and othesr that we suck at.
    Wol Euler loves trains.
    stevenaia Michinaga: a friend of mine is a fabulus compter progrmmer and hit it big ... wonder what he would be good at 100 years ago
    Wol Euler smiles.
    Wol Euler: indeed
    stevenaia Michinaga: it is nice we have abilities for the moment
    Freud Jungsten: Interesting thought.
    Freud Jungsten: So what about trains and politics?
    Wol Euler: he'd probably have been just as good at something else, I think. Programming is in large measure about seeing connecctions
    Freud Jungsten: I have no idea about programming really.
    Freud Jungsten: I had a little in a highschool class that is all.
    stevenaia Michinaga: trains and politics....something being avoided in the States
    Wol Euler nods
    Wol Euler: the americans have the odd idea that things are only good if they make single, specific people rich
    Freud Jungsten: Heard a lot of horror stories about Amtrak.
    Wol Euler: something that benefits everyone but enriches nobody, is anathema to them
    stevenaia Michinaga: I used to tke it to chicago alot, always fun
    Freud Jungsten: You will have to explain that one to me.
    Freud Jungsten: I am sort of an American, but not sure what you mean.
    Wol Euler: train travel is good for everyone: it unloads the roads, it saves gas and air pollution, it provides lots of jobs
    Wol Euler: but it doesn't make any current multi-millionaire even richer, therefore it is a bad thing.
    stevenaia Michinaga: now you know why it does not thive here
    Freud Jungsten: And it is a more comfortable way of traveling.
    Wol Euler: that too!
    Freud Jungsten: The end problem is cost though.
    stevenaia Michinaga: at least the busses are getting cleaner w/ internet
    Freud Jungsten: Once you get to where you are going, you have another cost from the staion to where you really want to go.
    Freud Jungsten: SO it is a larger structural issues.
    Wol Euler: and air travel is different how? :)
    Freud Jungsten: I am talking vs car.
    stevenaia Michinaga: from where I am to NYC there are 45 bus trips per day available
    Wol Euler: sure
    Wol Euler: yes, and that might be an unexamined (by me) part of the equation
    stevenaia Michinaga: trains would have to be hugly subsidized, the busses get free roads
    Wol Euler: there is no large-scale finely-woven mesh of long-distance bus services here
    Freud Jungsten: The nearest buss to where I was raised was probably in Tulsa which was a good drive from there.
    Wol Euler: mind you, it's not *that* finely woven there either :)
    Wol Euler: Greyhound.ca and Greyhound.com swear that there is no way to get from Regina SK to Milwaukee WI
    Freud Jungsten: But rail gets huge subsedies in the US and Europe
    Wol Euler: can we perhaps agree that *everything* gets huge subsidies? starting wiht the rich and their tax cuts
    Freud Jungsten: Something larger has to change I think to make it really work.
    Freud Jungsten: No.
    Wol Euler: ah :)
    Freud Jungsten: I thinki that is a bad way of looking at it.
    stevenaia Michinaga: I ahve no problem with social subsidies from my pocket, seems like the norm in Europe
    Freud Jungsten: I get scholarhips significantly based on a piece of paper signed when I was born and my skin color.
    Freud Jungsten: I don't consider that subsidies.... smiles
    Wol Euler listens
    stevenaia Michinaga: a way of balances past injustices perhaps
    Freud Jungsten: Coudl be.
    Freud Jungsten: I just think that is someone busts their buns to make some coin, let them keep most of it.
    stevenaia Michinaga: if you bust buns, you should be compensated
    Wol Euler: no argument there, but we'd have to discuss what "most" means
    Freud Jungsten: To me socialism is what white people do to minorities to keep us servile.
    Wol Euler: O.O
    Freud Jungsten: And it works very very very well.
    Freud Jungsten: So the idea that we should take and give stricktly based on who has and has not is misguided.
    Freud Jungsten: There need to be another standard.
    stevenaia Michinaga: any ideas?
    Wol Euler listens
    Freud Jungsten: If you look in the US.... the poorest places are reservations.
    Wol Euler: granted.
    Freud Jungsten: And those are also the most socialised as well.
    Wol Euler frowns
    Freud Jungsten: Every time a program is added, the standard of living drops.
    stevenaia Michinaga: but your culture has not been equitably "valued" everything comes down to dollars, not value
    Wol Euler: ok, so let's follow that idea. What happens if "we" stop all the programs?
    Freud Jungsten: I think I know what you mean.
    Freud Jungsten: That is not the point.
    Freud Jungsten: When we take from the rich and give to the poor.. it is still the rich that decide how the poor get it.
    Freud Jungsten: And the rich give it in a ways that make them feel better.
    Freud Jungsten: Not giving in ways that have the interstest of everone at heart.
    stevenaia Michinaga: why would they do that? guilt
    Freud Jungsten: That is where it breaks down I think.
    Wol Euler listens
    Freud Jungsten: And an sense of superiority.
    Freud Jungsten: Let the trailor trash eat cake...... here's a buck to buy it with....
    stevenaia Michinaga: within the reservation, how is "wealth" distributed?
    Freud Jungsten: Now my conscience is clean.
    Freud Jungsten: lol.. in the worst places there is non to distrubute.
    Freud Jungsten: But when get to that level, materialism is pretty absent, so not really an issue I think.
    Wol Euler: that suggests to me that the problem there isn't subsidies, then
    Freud Jungsten: More about sitting around drinking collecting checks and eventually comminting suicide.
    stevenaia Michinaga: does not sound like it's a motivator
    Freud Jungsten: The point is that everytime the big government tries to help, it makes the prolem worse long term... in my opinon.
    Wol Euler: agreed, and totally agreed that this is a great problem
    Wol Euler: same in western canada
    Wol Euler: so how do we solve it? Will turning off the tap of all subsidies tomorow morning change things?
    Freud Jungsten: So back to the origional question.
    Freud Jungsten: I think making Bill Gates pay 90 percent of his income is a bad idea.
    In the interests of clarity: I never suggested that he should.
    Wol Euler: I don't see the connection
    stevenaia Michinaga: I assume the Roma don;t get subsidies in Europe, and they are despised for their different culture
    Freud Jungsten: As teh Bill and Melinda Foundation does far more good than anything the Goverment could do on its own.
    Freud Jungsten: Making the rich pay more so the poor pay less is not effectyive as the rich that control the government still get to feel better for how it is spent.
    Wol Euler: why do you care what the rich feel? fuck 'em
    Freud Jungsten: I am sort of pessimistic about the whole thing in case you can't tell... grins
    Freud Jungsten: no no no.
    Freud Jungsten: You can' judge someone like that.
    stevenaia Michinaga: but with pessinisum comes the ability to eventually change things
    Wol Euler: the rich would despise you whether or not they were taxed, surely you know that.
    Wol Euler: ((brb need more coffee))
    Freud Jungsten: I bust my buns to get great grades... if I eventually find myself with a great job or founding my own company.... I think it only right that I should be able to enjoy the fruits of that work...
    For the record, nobody present suggested that you wouldn't.
    stevenaia Michinaga: some people have found adaptablility is the key to keeping thier prized culture alive over the millenium
    Freud Jungsten: Granted there are rich jerks..... I deal with them on a dialy basis at my job.
    stevenaia Michinaga: the trick is not to become what you despise
    stevenaia Michinaga: I chose selfemployment to avoid becomming the bosses I despised in the past
    Freud Jungsten: Great for you.
    stevenaia Michinaga: but I needed to work with them long enough to understand that
    Freud Jungsten: Might go that rout myself someday.
    stevenaia Michinaga: learning what sucks is an important lesson
    Freud Jungsten: I have the idea of looking at my own company when I am about 30 or so.
    Freud Jungsten: I just don't understand the wrote hostility toward the rich.
    stevenaia Michinaga: I told my son when he was in school with some teachers who he disliked and got nothing from that that was an important lesson and oppurtunity, there is much to be learned from the unfortunate situation
    Freud Jungsten: Very true.
    stevenaia Michinaga: even if it's to "not be loke that"
    Freud Jungsten: I think the part that I don' like is lumping all rich people into one gruop and all poor into one group.
    Freud Jungsten: I grew up in a self impoverished house..... my mom drank smoked and did drugs so we starved.
    stevenaia Michinaga: judging is the problem
    Freud Jungsten: But we were still able to live bcuase we had all the foodstamps, tribal services and other programs.
    stevenaia Michinaga: you seem to be a keen observer, that in itself is a stepping stone
    Wol Euler: back, listening
    Freud Jungsten: I just don't understand white people so I am tryhing to figure things out... I watch.... lol... one of the reasons I come here.
    stevenaia Michinaga: wb, it;s almost time when I am suppoed to be awake :)
    Freud Jungsten: lol
    Freud Jungsten: me as well.
    Freud Jungsten: So back to trains....smiles
    Wol Euler: :)
    Wol Euler makes "shoo, go away" gestures
    Freud Jungsten: I think we need more of it... smiles
    Freud Jungsten: Just need to figure out how to make it economical.
    Wol Euler: we can agree there :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: the train can be a metaphor of for movement out of where you are to where you are going, this contry is about keeping people where they are, hence, no trains to reservations, or many other palces
    Freud Jungsten: Might try Amtrak for my next trip.
    Wol Euler: it's not as bad as its reputation, in my experience
    Wol Euler: and you get to see the counntry
    Freud Jungsten: Agreed.
    Freud Jungsten: That was fun.
    stevenaia Michinaga: I enjoy train travel, meet interesting people, dificult to do in a car or bus
    Freud Jungsten: I have riden the buss before.... Greyhound... wont do that again.
    stevenaia Michinaga: nods, bus travel works for friends traveling
    Wol Euler: not so good on your own, yes
    Freud Jungsten: Yes, but not for a 4'9 80lbs girl who looks 13 by herself.
    stevenaia Michinaga: but trains ahve a "social center" dining cars, lounge cars
    Wol Euler nods
    Freud Jungsten: That part I liked about the trainsin europe.
    Wol Euler: trains are much more sociable
    Freud Jungsten: Horrid expensive though.
    Freud Jungsten: Much more costly than flying.
    Wol Euler: O.O
    Wol Euler: cheaper or same price in Germany now
    Wol Euler: and door-to-door they aren't even slower
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    Wol Euler: for inland flights
    Freud Jungsten: When I was there it cost us twice teh price on train vs flying to get from Munich to Stuttgart.
    Wol Euler: you still have to queue for hours for security
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, hard to take the train overseas :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: how did you get to Europe?
    Freud Jungsten: United.
    stevenaia Michinaga: cute, I mean from work, school, for fun?
    Freud Jungsten: Oh.... lol
    Freud Jungsten: An exchange semester.
    stevenaia Michinaga: (badly phrased question)
    stevenaia Michinaga: can I ask if there is a tradition of meditation in your culture?
    Freud Jungsten: There are several in various native american cultures.
    stevenaia Michinaga: speaking to what you know
    stevenaia Michinaga: as there is in mine... several
    Freud Jungsten: Sweat lodges, peyote, vision quests, etc.
    Wol Euler: just btw: train München to Stuttgart 47€; flight 119€ (and that's last minute standby even)
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    Wol Euler: internet offers today
    Wol Euler: anyway, that's not hte point :)
    Freud Jungsten: When I was here it was reversed.
    Freud Jungsten: We decided to take the train becuse we could even if it was more expensive.
    Freud Jungsten: But that was about three years ago.
    Wol Euler nods
    Wol Euler: and taxes and jet fuel prices have increased geratly since then
    Wol Euler: most of htat price is tax
    stevenaia Michinaga: carbon tax?
    Freud Jungsten: Don't doubt it.
    Freud Jungsten: OK... off to try and get a short nap before I get up.
    Freud Jungsten: Thanks for the chat.
    Wol Euler: you'll see ads like "Stuttgart to Venice for 19€" which is technically true, but you end up paying 140€
    stevenaia Michinaga: good idea, night
    Wol Euler: bye freud, sleep well
    stevenaia Michinaga: most interesting perspective
    Wol Euler: indeed
    Wol Euler smiles
    stevenaia Michinaga: she seesm to arising from the ashes
    Wol Euler: mmhmm, bootstrapping. More power to her elbow
    Wol Euler: her anger will be useful in that
    stevenaia Michinaga: nods, certtainly one possibility
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    Wol Euler: :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: I'm off to start my day, thanks for hanging around
    Wol Euler: my pleasure, thanks for coming by.
    Wol Euler: take care
    stevenaia Michinaga: always good to see you
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