2010.11.16 07:00 -By-Pass the Strays

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Riddle Sideways. The comments are by Riddle Sideways. Lots of topics and none really.  Thoughts and wonderings.  Deep meaning light little fluff.  I think I learned a bunch.

    Riddle Sideways: Good Morning Bruce and Blub
    Bruce Mowbray: Good morning, Riddle!
    Bruce Mowbray: I've been checking our weather radar, and it loks like I might lose my sattelite signal soon, , ,
    Bruce Mowbray: so if I disappear sudden;y, that's the reason.
    Riddle Sideways: was thinking that some sessions were empty before you started coming to all
    Bruce Mowbray: Hi, druth!
    Riddle Sideways: Hi Druth
    druth Vlodovic: hi bruce, riddle
    Riddle Sideways: hmmm, weather affects your dish?
    Bruce Mowbray: yes, the heavy clouds cut off the signal. . .
    Riddle Sideways: years ago I had satellite and clouds did not affect
    druth Vlodovic: probably they use higher frequency signals, less penetration
    Bruce Mowbray: It's always an interesting thing -- to see when I get disconnected. . .
    Bruce Mowbray: but what bothers me is that I am supposed to be the guardian at the 1 p.m. session today ---
    Bruce Mowbray: and from the looks of this storm system, I will still be under heavy rains at that time. . .
    Bruce Mowbray: oh well . . . just taking it one thing at a time. . .
    Riddle Sideways: maybe I can be there for you.
    Riddle Sideways: not sure, have nothing on schedule
    Riddle Sideways: but that changes around 8am
    Liza Deischer: hi
    Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Liza.
    Liza Deischer: just passing by for a few minutes
    Riddle Sideways: Hi Liza
    Riddle Sideways: just passing by?
    Liza Deischer: meaning, not staying for long
    Riddle Sideways: I remember when SL was a destination
    Riddle Sideways: I did not bring a topic today since there have been such good/deep questions of late
    Bruce Mowbray: like, as in "a place" to visit - or even to "live in". . . ?
    Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Yaku.
    Liza Deischer: hi Yaku
    Riddle Sideways: Hi Yaku
    Yakuzza Lethecus: good morning
    Yakuzza Lethecus: or afternoon :)
    druth Vlodovic: hi yak
    Liza Deischer: :)
    Riddle Sideways: I was reading the wiki and some of the great questions being brought upstion
         Many new people are asking great chat topic questions
        e.g. What/why is laugther.

    Riddle Sideways: loved the sex session
    Bruce Mowbray: I must have missed that one.
    Riddle Sideways: Bruce, you got so worked up you levitated
    Liza Deischer: so did I
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    Riddle Sideways: ooo, talk abotu sex... not ...
    Liza Deischer: I see him normal
    Yakuzza Lethecus: it´s you liza :)
    Liza Deischer: which can't be said of myself :)
    Bruce Mowbray: I see myself "normal" but I know through lifelong experience that my sense of "normal" is often an illusion.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: well, was that that saturday morning session with bertram and his former girlfriend ?
    Riddle Sideways: hmmm, did not know about friend
    Bruce Mowbray: Oh -- I'm remember the Think Tank discussion -- (Pamala Clift's) last Sat. morning -- and it was really really good, I thought.
    Bruce Mowbray: (It was also about sex. . . but let's not go there if Riddle prefers not to.)
    Riddle Sideways: true, I do not prefer
    Bruce Mowbray: I've been working a lot with "dropping" and with "staying aware of whatever rises."
    Riddle Sideways: just saying many new comers are bringing great questions
    Bruce Mowbray: and I am finding that ..(oops... waiting, dropping now...)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: can you give a link to the session in order to understand which one you meant exactly
    Bruce Mowbray: Anyway, I am thinking that "dropping" applies to what I am already aware of. . .
    Bruce Mowbray: otherwise, "dropping" could be a way of "by-passing" issues that I don't wish to face at the moment.
    Bruce Mowbray: or, dropping might be a way of numbing-out.
    Liza Deischer: to me dropping is a technique in order to become aware
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, Liza, ideally it would be that for me, too.
    Liza Deischer: making room for anything that rises
    Bruce Mowbray: But, for example, say that I am preoccupied with anxiety, , ,
    Bruce Mowbray: but don't know what it is that I'm afraid of. . .
    Bruce Mowbray: If I drop the anxiety. . . I might not come into awareness of my fears. . .
    Riddle Sideways takes a long time looking for url http://wiki.playasbeing.org/Chat_Logs/2010/11/2010.11.06_07%3a00_%E2%80%93_let%C2%B4s_talk_about_sex_...
    Bruce Mowbray: (probably a poor example, but I hope you'll get my meaning.)
    Liza Deischer: yes Bruce true
    Riddle Sideways: usually read from RSS
    Liza Deischer: if you drop and still something is coming back over and over again, it might be a good idea to get 'into' it
    Liza Deischer: becoming aware of your fear
         I fear chat will turn to Fear. A strong emotion like fear can drive all other topics running away.
    Riddle Sideways: liza, that is usual true
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, and I am gradually learning to get "into" it with compassion for myself. . .
    Riddle Sideways: but lately I am troubled by it
    Bruce Mowbray: seeing that it is truly all right to be afraid, or whatever else might be going on emotionally.
    Liza Deischer: compassiong is really important
    Liza Deischer listens to Riddle
    Bruce Mowbray: So, what I "drop" is all of the things that would create masks or barriers to my "seeing" myself. . .
    Bruce Mowbray: in other words, no BY-PASSES to awareness.
    Bruce Mowbray also listens to Riddle.
    Riddle Sideways: stray thoughts that try very hard to distract us
    Riddle Sideways: and our usual reactions to them
    Riddle Sideways: the looking at them
    Riddle Sideways: and stating "thatz nice"
    Riddle Sideways: and letting them pass
    Riddle Sideways: but, this last week they do not just leave
    Riddle Sideways: something about the time book exercise
    Riddle Sideways: has the biggest badest strongest
    Riddle Sideways: coming to call
    Bruce Mowbray: Oh yes, that is exactly where my own thoughts on these things came up, Riddle. . . .
    Bruce Mowbray: please continue, Riddle.
    Riddle Sideways: saying "thatz nice! now go away"
    Riddle Sideways: is not working
    Liza Deischer: hmmmmm
    Liza Deischer: what I often see with myself
    Liza Deischer: is that resistence is blokking the way
    Bruce Mowbray: Saying "now go away!" is what I mean by "by-pass" - - - But having compassion for my own predicament. . . staying with it - and having compassion for my own predicament. . .
    Liza Deischer: both of being able to get 'into' it
    Bruce Mowbray: that, it seems to me, is the very essence of the work, for me anyway.
    Liza Deischer: as for letting go
    Liza Deischer: if I have thought, feelings or whatever that don't go away
    Liza Deischer: but also doesnt get 'fluid'
    Riddle Sideways: yes, by-pass or any other interaction only gives strength
    Liza Deischer: then I know I need to look at resistance
    Liza Deischer: and when resistance is fear, it is not easy to look at
    Riddle Sideways: giving no resistance is hard, but what is needed
    Liza Deischer: it has a way of 'slipping through your fingers'
    Bruce Mowbray: The question, for me, is whether the "resistance" rises as a means of "coping" - or avoiding - the awareness of something like fear, or anger, or grief. . .
    Liza Deischer: I think actually both
    Bruce Mowbray: so, I was raised NOT to face emotion. . . but rather to "be a man" and avoid dealing with what was really coming up. . .
    Bruce Mowbray: The John Wayne approach, you know.
    Bruce Mowbray: MUCH resistance there.
    Liza Deischer: I'm afraid I'm pretty familiar with the John Wayne approach :)
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    Riddle Sideways: hmmm, is stray thought, becoming resistance, coping to add avoidance of main practice?
    Bruce Mowbray: Can you state that question in a different way, please Riddle?
    Bruce Mowbray: I don't quite understand what you mean.
    Liza Deischer: I think coping in not wanting an experience again, that once felt bad
    Liza Deischer: or as Bruce said, not recognized in the right way
    Bruce Mowbray: yes, Liza. . . a type of avoidance.
    Liza Deischer: right
    Bruce Mowbray: rather than really dealing in awareness with whatever rises.
    Liza Deischer: bt in a way an important one
    Riddle Sideways: If dedicating my today's sitting to explore void... and thoughts of what need to do today keep invading
    Liza Deischer: it is a defense mechanism
    Bruce Mowbray listens to Riddle.
    Liza Deischer: well, somebody told me that thoughts are always there
    Liza Deischer: void is not 'void'
    Riddle Sideways has big lag (in thinking) today
    Liza Deischer: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: so, @ Riddle. . . the "void" of your practice is being "invaded" by thoughts of what you need to get done today...
    Riddle Sideways: yes.
    Riddle Sideways: usually can slide past them
    Bruce Mowbray: m m m m ... same with me! And that's one of the reasons I said earlier that I need to bring compassion for my own predicament with all of that -- especially the things that I am afraid of. . .
    Riddle Sideways: but maybe main subject/topic is needing to be avoided
    Riddle Sideways: not needing to look more at passing
    Bruce Mowbray: "needing to avoid" --- as the main topic of the practice?
    Liza Deischer is wondering what happens in Riddle's void normally
    Riddle Sideways: no, Void was just example subject
    Liza Deischer: but an interesting one though
    Riddle Sideways: however, have been wondering about the Void spot lately
    Riddle Sideways: when I look at ALL there is Void/black hole
    Riddle Sideways: too
    Bruce Mowbray: What makes my practice "work" is that I continually need to return to the practice of NOT getting side-tracked.
    Bruce Mowbray: My mind continually avoids the void!
    Riddle Sideways: bruce, that usually works
    Bruce Mowbray: by rushing in with lots and lots of side-track issues (like what I need to do later today). . . and what I'm afraid of.
    Liza Deischer: there seems to be a some kind of change going on
    Liza Deischer: something that raises thoughts
    Bruce Mowbray: "raises thoughts" ? Please say more.
    Riddle Sideways: yes, wonder what that is
    Liza Deischer: well, I know I get a lot ot thoughts, when I am disturbed about something
    Liza Deischer: the disturbance itself can be very good, but first defense is to get distracted
    Liza Deischer: problem is, often I can only say afterwards
    Liza Deischer: sometimes it takes months before I see a glimps of the source
    Riddle Sideways: sometimes, hindsight is not clear :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, "the first defense is to get distracted." And compassion for myself (for needing to defend myself) is what helps me stay present and aware - with stability and calmness.
    Liza Deischer: right Riddle
    Liza Deischer: acknomledging the distraction is probably not taking it away, but makes it easier
    Liza Deischer: compassion as Bruce said
    Bruce Mowbray: so, Compassion becomes an "abode" for the practice itself.
    Bruce Mowbray: just a Loving-kindness, or Equanimity, or Joy would also be an "Abode" for the practice.
    Bruce Mowbray: as*
    Bruce Mowbray: Bye, druth!
    Riddle Sideways: Druth poofed
    Bruce Mowbray: yes, she did.
    Bruce Mowbray: In other words, if Compassion can be my "abode," then I do not need to seek out defences. . .
    Liza Deischer: ha! good luck Bruce :))
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    Riddle Sideways: you are right. it is just very hard
    Liza Deischer: yes, it is more liks stumbling along :)
    Liza Deischer: trying over and over again
    Riddle Sideways: trying to Live in your heart, when the head keeps screaming
    Liza Deischer: yesss
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, Liza, and that's why I call it "practice" and also "the work."
    Liza Deischer: yes
    Riddle Sideways: could call it "Play"
    Liza Deischer: yes, 'play' makes it easier :)
    Bruce Mowbray: I've done Shambhala Warrior training -- and the beginning place of all of the work is trusting Basic Goodness.
    Bruce Mowbray: Trusting that the substrate of all Being is Basic Goodness -- that really helps me a lot. . . especially with the Compassion.
    Liza Deischer: but it is pretty experimental and interesting to see what might happen, which makes it 'playful'
    Bruce Mowbray: Underneath all of my Monkey Mind there is a Presence that is Stable and Life-enhancing and Life-supporting. . . and that I can "play with," too!
    Liza Deischer: I'm not so sure about this Basic Goodness anymore
    Riddle Sideways: and stating that that Presence is goodness is a great foundation
    Bruce Mowbray also enjoys seeing that Basic Goodness is playing with him.
    Liza Deischer: Because I think free will is based upon the fact that we are both
    Liza Deischer: and neither?
    Bruce Mowbray: Mmmmm. . . . well, I think that we are both and neither. . . and probably everything else in between. . .
    Liza Deischer: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: But, largely, my notion or Freedom is itself an illusion.
    Riddle Sideways: maybe bruce is saying all those levels (both/neither)(any subject) are the next level up from Basic
    Liza Deischer: hmmmm, not so sure
    Liza Deischer: I mean Bruce
    Riddle Sideways: maybe start with some foundation and build choas on top
    Riddle Sideways: complexity(s)
    Bruce Mowbray: Well, what I mean is, , , , that if my "purpose" in meditation is to escape whatever comes up in my mind, then I am actually by-passing the work.
    Bruce Mowbray: trying to avoid, or numb-out, or gain some sort of restful mental state. . .
    Bruce Mowbray: That puts me on guard against restlessness. . .
    Liza Deischer: yes, quite right
    Bruce Mowbray: and while the whole time i might be thinking that I am FREE, I am actually being reactive to my habits of avoidance.
    Bruce Mowbray: so, better to simply face whatever comes up.
    Liza Deischer: well, that is exactly why I doubt there isn't any freedom :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Me too!
    Liza Deischer: it is sometimes hard to use words to say what we mean, as we have stated so many times before :)
    Liza Deischer: it was very interesting, so I stayed a bit longer then intended
    Bruce Mowbray: Sometimes the notion of "freedom" means having lots of choices about how to fill up my void -- fill what I LACK.
    Liza Deischer: but I really need to go now
    Riddle Sideways: bye and thanks lisa
    Liza Deischer: bye all :)
    Bruce Mowbray: OK -- THANKS for being here, Liza!
    Riddle Sideways: yes, you stayed
    Bruce Mowbray: Mmm.. I'm so glad she stayed as long as whe did.
    Bruce Mowbray: she*
    Riddle Sideways: hard to use gender pronouns
    Bruce Mowbray: But if freedom is simply a means to get what we LACK, then we will NEVER have enough.
    Bruce Mowbray: Rather, I see that there is already "enough" of everything. . .
    Bruce Mowbray: (well, I mean that's ideally what I should "see") ;-)
    Riddle Sideways: the TED presentation on Freedom is stuck on that work Freedom
    Bruce Mowbray: So "freedom" is a sort of poverty-consciousness.... the notion that I NEED more than I already "have."
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I saw that TED talk, Riddle --- excelolent, huh?
    Bruce Mowbray: excellent*
    Riddle Sideways: 86 kinds of toothpaste is not really freedom
    Bruce Mowbray suddenly realizes that he has "reminding" himself of how to do a better job with his own practice - - - not trying to tell anyone else how it "should be."
    Bruce Mowbray: has been reminding himself*
    Riddle Sideways: exactly, what I was thinking
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    Riddle Sideways: needs to listen to what I am saying
    Bruce Mowbray: The only work we ever do is on ourselves -- perhaps.
    Riddle Sideways: but, also needs to listen to what you are saying
    Riddle Sideways: you have appeared to me to tell me something
    Riddle Sideways: thatz a lot of energy that I chould not ignore
    Riddle Sideways: should
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hi aph
    Riddle Sideways: Hi Aph
    Aphrodite Macbain: hello
    Bruce Mowbray: Good morning, Aph.
    Riddle Sideways: was just winding down
    Aphrodite Macbain: I know - it's hard tfor me to get up at 7 these mornings
    Riddle Sideways is wondering how to summarize topic
    Riddle Sideways: now that there is daylight at 7 it is easier

         I fear Fear is back
    Bruce Mowbray: We were discussing how to deal with fear when it comes up in our meditation practice, Aph.
    Aphrodite Macbain: oh what an interesting topic
    Riddle Sideways: and how to deal with anything/everything that comes up
    Aphrodite Macbain: Learn from it I guess
    Bruce Mowbray: and sharing some of our ways of dealing with fear - - - from a variety of viewpoints or methods of practice.
    Bruce Mowbray: and with anything that also might come up.
    Aphrodite Macbain: I'm sorry I missed that
    Bruce Mowbray: I spoke of my own need for Compassion for myself -- for my own predicament.
    Aphrodite Macbain: Have each of you felt fear when you're meditating
    Riddle Sideways: you can read it, but hard to get your chat right into it
    Bruce Mowbray: yes.
    Bruce Mowbray: I have, anyway.
    Riddle Sideways: not much fear
    Riddle Sideways: usually some emotion
    Aphrodite Macbain: fear that arises as you sit?
    Bruce Mowbray listens intently.
    Aphrodite Macbain: or fear that is there anyway?
    Riddle Sideways: different times, different emotions
    Aphrodite Macbain: I find it's hard to meditate when I feel a strong emotion of any kind
    Riddle Sideways: yes, we talked about stray thought generates some emotion
    Aphrodite Macbain: not just busy thoughts
    Riddle Sideways: that resistance/avoidance/reaction
    Aphrodite Macbain: right
    Bruce Mowbray: Mmmm. . . I have a different notion of what meditation is, then.
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes?
    Aphrodite Macbain: what is it ruce?
    Bruce Mowbray: Well, for me, meditation is not about trying to produce a state of mind. . .
    Bruce Mowbray: It is about paying attention to whatever rises -- including the strong emotions.
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bruce
    Bruce Mowbray: So, they would not actually be "distractions" but, rather, the very stuff which the meditation pays attention to.
    Aphrodite Macbain listens with interest
    Bruce Mowbray: Mmmm. . . . This is a very personal thing, actually.
    Aphrodite Macbain: I like that approach
    Bruce Mowbray: It's about developing a sense of one's own "interior-ness."
    Aphrodite Macbain: It's more do-able and perhas more useful
    Bruce Mowbray: just watching it all.
    Bruce Mowbray: like stuff in a river passing by.
    Bruce Mowbray: an enormous river.
    Bruce Mowbray: and then it goes over a waterfall -- and disappears...
    Bruce Mowbray: but something else is always coming from up-river...
    Aphrodite Macbain: So rather than reaching a place of peace and one-ness; you come to a place of self knowledge
    Bruce Mowbray: so just maintain presence and awareness and let the river flow.
    Bruce Mowbray: No need to push it -- or to go over a bridge or dam.
    Bruce Mowbray: yes, precisely so, Aph. And the great irony is that I'd been thinking all along that this "self" was something solid and permanent...
    Bruce Mowbray: but while watching all of the stuff coming down the river... I have an appreciation for the impermanence of self itself!
    Bruce Mowbray: Riddle mentioned earlier the reading the book on Time that Pema is writing has evoked a lot of thinking.
    Bruce Mowbray: It has done so for me, also.
    Riddle Sideways keeps listening
    Aphrodite Macbain: Yes. I find though that tho there is pemanence within the impermanence. Things keep coming back, returning for reassessment
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    Bruce Mowbray: That was Liza's point -- (she left just before you got here, Aph).
    Aphrodite Macbain: I still have the same ways of doing things, attitudes, fears
    Bruce Mowbray: The we should pay attention to the stuff that persists . . . that keeps showing up.
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes? question it but not try to change t
    Bruce Mowbray: would you call those "habits", Aph?
    Aphrodite Macbain: habits of mind perhaps
    Aphrodite Macbain: beliefs and values are the most deep seated, along with emotions
    Bruce Mowbray: so, then, the "practice" is to watch our own mental habits?
    Aphrodite Macbain: Yes. I think a good starting point for self understanding
    Aphrodite Macbain: My dismfort with all this is that it's so me-centred.
    Aphrodite Macbain: I feel I should also be looking outwords at all thoe other sentient beings
    Bruce Mowbray: I feel the same way, Aph.
    Aphrodite Macbain: and non sentient beings
    Bruce Mowbray: The Tonglen practice -- helps a lot there.
    Aphrodite Macbain: It's true we need to start with ourselves
    Riddle Sideways: lately, is more including rather then looking outward
    Aphrodite Macbain: but at some point we should start reching outwards
    Bruce Mowbray: "including," yes.
    Aphrodite Macbain: reaching
    Aphrodite Macbain: meta
    Riddle Sideways: expanding
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes
    Bruce Mowbray: seeing that there's really little or no separation between ourselves and others...?
    Riddle Sideways: yes, am really trying to do it that way
    Riddle Sideways: meta, works too
    Aphrodite Macbain: expanding our consciousness to becoming part of the universe
    Riddle Sideways: expanding to Be the universe
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes Bruce
    Aphrodite Macbain: and Riddle
    Bruce Mowbray: So, in that sense, here we are . . . no separation of subject/object. Just One in Being?
    Bruce Mowbray: sharing Being.
    Riddle Sideways: yes
    Bruce Mowbray: On that happy note, I must be going.
    Aphrodite Macbain: in this little circe in the Internet
    Aphrodite Macbain: circle
    Riddle Sideways: now... the small detail of maintaining that
    Bruce Mowbray: THANKS so much for this chat.
    Aphrodite Macbain: Thank you all. It was short but very sweet for me
    Riddle Sideways: THANKS so much
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-) May you be happy and well today, Yaku, Aph, and Riddle.
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bye
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bye! Bruce
    Riddle Sideways: and may the storm not crash you
    Aphrodite Macbain: Is there a storm there?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye bruce
    Aphrodite Macbain: He has so many
    Riddle Sideways: bruce is watching approaching weather
    Riddle Sideways: might take out his internet
    Aphrodite Macbain: I'm looking out at a brilliantly blue sky
    Riddle Sideways: so am I
    Aphrodite Macbain: we all share the sy but see it differently
    Aphrodite Macbain: sky
    Riddle Sideways: so profound
    Aphrodite Macbain: Riddle - forget where you live
    Riddle Sideways: california
    Aphrodite Macbain: I forget
    Aphrodite Macbain: Oh so you are in the same tme zone as I am
    Riddle Sideways: oh, I forget where you RL live
    Yakuzza Lethecus: :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: Vancouver
    Riddle Sideways: we are in in SL time zone
    Aphrodite Macbain: yep
    Aphrodite Macbain whispers : time to fly away
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i uploaded that last art of being vid´s i made
    Yakuzza Lethecus: http://de.xfire.com/profile/yakuzzalethecus/
    Riddle Sideways whispers, me too
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye everoyne
    Riddle Sideways: thanks, will look at them.
    Riddle Sideways: thanks for videoing the art show
    Riddle Sideways: was great to have a runway and curtains
    Yakuzza Lethecus: sadly only chunks after we wanted to make pictures
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i should have recorded the session
    Yakuzza Lethecus: and experiment with the capture program that 60 second video´s aren´t 1,5gb rawfiles
    Yakuzza Lethecus: cya riddle
    Riddle Sideways: does it capture the audion too?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: yes

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