2010.11.21 19:00 - Slow... Changes...

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Calvino Rabeni. The comments are by Calvino Rabeni.

    Calvino Rabeni: Good evening Paradise <333
    Paradise Tennant: hiya cal :) how are you this evening
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm pretty well, if I were the moon I'd be a first quarter waxing moon :)

    Paradise Tennant: smiles and nods :)
    Calvino Rabeni: And for you?
    Paradise Tennant: smiles maybe just black sky and stars tonight :)
    Calvino Rabeni: That's a good time for seeing meteorites
    Paradise Tennant: what would you like to talk about tonight polyhedrons :)
    Paradise Tennant: yes have you seen a meteorite?
    Calvino Rabeni: Not since the Perseids in August
    Paradise Tennant: big smile mitzi is online !
    Paradise Tennant: they were spectacular I heard but did not see :)
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, Mitzi appears like a meteorite
    Calvino Rabeni: I was thinking about that state of mind one gets into, to see meteorites
    Calvino Rabeni: Good evening Geo and Mitzi
    Paradise Tennant: listens
    Geo Solari: Hello. Can i sit here?
    Calvino Rabeni: The meteorites don't come when I want or expect
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes pleas, Geo
    Paradise Tennant: welcome geo nice to see you again
    Calvino Rabeni: And they don't come very often
    Calvino Rabeni: and if I'm thinking about something else I might overlook them
    Paradise Tennant: hiya mitzi good to see you !
    Calvino Rabeni: And looking in one spot in the sky, easy to miss one in another place
    Paradise Tennant: smiles kind of like the really precious moments of life .. they can slip by when you blink
    Calvino Rabeni: (meteorite viewing, Mitzi)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Hello my dears. Nice to see the both of you tonight.
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Calvino Rabeni: And a kind of relaxed wide angle quiet state of mind is best to see them
    Calvino Rabeni: but relaxed and alert and sensitive
    Calvino Rabeni: Which implies all kinds of other things
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I've gotten more interested in peripheral vision recently
    Calvino Rabeni: like "dropping" the spin or whatever
    Calvino Rabeni: Yup, Mitzi that is a fascinating topic
    Calvino Rabeni: for meteorites and other ways of seeing too
    Calvino Rabeni: what have you been considering about that vision?
    Paradise Tennant: hiya blissful :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: well, I do this Gurdjieff Movements practice, and in that class we've been asked to develop that capacity
    Blissful Badger: Hello
    Calvino Rabeni: Hi Steve and Bliss :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: evening
    Blissful Badger: Hi Calvino
    Paradise Tennant: hiya stevenaia :) gtsy
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: in order to be aware of everyone else so we can move forward and backwards together in perfect alignment ... not that that happens all the time!
    Calvino Rabeni: Field awareness
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Hi Steve, Blissful one
    Blissful Badger: sounds like a chorus line!
    Calvino Rabeni: and non-distracting too
    Calvino Rabeni: maybe like another channel at the same time?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: yes, very much so. I find it helps me in nature meditation. when I broaden my view, somehow I feel calmer.
    Calvino Rabeni: In the martial arts its a similar thing - called 8-direction awareness and "soft eyes"
    Calvino Rabeni: The peripheral vision can be calming
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Perhaps more related to the whole? Or, as you intimated, it does a different thing in the nervous system?
    stevenaia Michinaga: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7430376162567485658#
    Blissful Badger: what's that Steve?
    Calvino Rabeni: I believe its a pretty separate vision capability
    stevenaia Michinaga: Gurdjieff's Movements
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Thanks Stevenaia, that's a wonderful clip!
    stevenaia Michinaga: never heard of it till jsut now, thank you Mitzi
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: One of my teachers in my class was taught by one of the male performers in that movie.

    Blissful Badger: fascinating
    Paradise Tennant: wow
    Paradise Tennant: just wow
    Blissful Badger: a bit disturbing. like automatons
    Calvino Rabeni: There is something disturbing in the experience (from my point of view)
    Blissful Badger: but will read more
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes, robotic in a way ...
    Blissful Badger: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: However, that's actually a kind of common property of some practices that are unfamiliar at first
    Blissful Badger: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: and later they get assimilated into a new level of naturalness
    Calvino Rabeni: or can, but it might take persiisting
    Blissful Badger: like anything that is unfamiliar
    Calvino Rabeni: yes,
    stevenaia Michinaga: where is it from?
    Paradise Tennant: like kata in karate :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I'm no expert but I think each dance performs a specific function ... some embody specific universal laws which might be a reason why they seem autonomic ...
    Calvino Rabeni: Or doing musical scales
    Blissful Badger: like anything that is memorized
    Paradise Tennant: or the sufi whirling dances
    Blissful Badger: they are intended to take one into another state of consciousness
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Some are soft and flowing and really different than those ... have a reverent feeling
    Blissful Badger: paerhaps these are too
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Others are martial and have very exciting music
    Blissful Badger: the purpose being what exactly?
    Calvino Rabeni: there is more than one type of approach to developing a larger set of embodied skills .... one is to practice something outside the familar - something weird-seeming, until it gets more familiar
    Paradise Tennant: to connect to the flow
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: To my limited understanding, the purpose is to align the thinking, feeling, and moving functions of the body, which usually operate independently.
    Calvino Rabeni: I could be wrong but I see these movements as that type of practice
    Blissful Badger: we canbe made to accept anything?
    Blissful Badger: to reach another state of consciousness?
    Calvino Rabeni: To develop the bodymind and integrate it
    Paradise Tennant: there is also something about moving in a group that is powerful
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Thus harmonizing the function of the human body. These are so difficult they are impossible to do without the participation of attention in these three different capacities of the body.
    Paradise Tennant: a melding
    Calvino Rabeni: increase its range of competencies and behaviours
    stevenaia Michinaga: many similar things can focus the mind and body, most cultures possess things like this
    Blissful Badger: yes. but I find it frightening, dont you?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: how frightening?
    Blissful Badger: a group is different from an individual
    stevenaia Michinaga: that's in intersting take on something new, Bliss
    Blissful Badger: the group think quality - it become somewat minless
    Blissful Badger: mindless
    Blissful Badger: but at the same time I understand the reason for it
    Calvino Rabeni: The group mind is in a lot of ways separate and running independently from the individual mind
    Blissful Badger: how do you mean steve?
    Calvino Rabeni: have you every been inspired by being around a smart and lively group?
    Blissful Badger: yes Cal
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Gurdjieff's message was that human beings operate in a wildly disjointed manner, with one and then another temporary "self" grabbing control of the body, with the result being poorly coordinated and even disastrous consequences for the individual.
    Calvino Rabeni: its intelligent group think
    Blissful Badger: yes but a lively group that has a diversity of ideas and expressions Cal
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: So he felt it was of prime importance to become aware of this situation within ourselves, and try to bring our many "selves" into more integration. Quite a challenge I feel!
    Calvino Rabeni: surely :)
    Blissful Badger: yes but it feels very theoretical.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: In this gathering, we are attempting to build a group awareness and we like it or we would not be here ...
    Calvino Rabeni: I can just imagine what he'd have done with modern knowledge of neurophysiology
    Calvino Rabeni: which we're only recently starting to get
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Ha! Fascinating!
    Calvino Rabeni: the kind of scientific knowledge needed for anything like that endeavor
    Blissful Badger: Are we attempting to build a gorup awareness here Mitzi?
    Blissful Badger: group?
    Blissful Badger: Or are we each trying to understand ourslves and the world a little better?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Well, we may or may not be attempting to ... but nevertheless I believe it happens naturally
    Calvino Rabeni: "May or may not be " ...
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I sympathize with the feeling of distrust of groups. There are few good examples and a lot of terrible ones
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Calvino, is that one of your goals as Guardian and group facilitator here?
    Blissful Badger: Yes, perhaps that is what is making me uncomfortable about this
    Calvino Rabeni: Well, Mitzi, might it be fair to say, we feel the bad examples and remember them?
    Calvino Rabeni: and forget the good ones?
    Calvino Rabeni: Which is a primitive human filter I suppose
    Calvino Rabeni: but not an objective view of things
    Blissful Badger: It's when the group think becomes irresponsible. Like a corporatin where no one is responsible
    Calvino Rabeni: the worst case scenarios have the greatest salience
    Blissful Badger: corporation
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I don't think that's "fair to say" because some people remember the good ones too. Let's not generalize about this specific topic - people's experiences are too individualized
    Calvino Rabeni: Perhaps your're right, but we have general attitudes too
    Blissful Badger: yes, but I'm sure we have much in common
    Calvino Rabeni: mention "group think" or even "collective intelligence" and it turns up a negative bias
    Blissful Badger: the Neurenberg rallies for instance
    Calvino Rabeni: Where a lot of people will jump to defend their individuality
    Paradise Tennant: hmm not so sure .. at some level we are all one sort of consciouness :)
    Calvino Rabeni: against the fear of oppression or something

    Blissful Badger: perhaps
    Blissful Badger: The collective unconscious? Is there such a thing? Do we change the collective or the individual?
    Calvino Rabeni: But then, what Paradise says may be closer to the truth in an objective sense rather than an attitudinal one
    Blissful Badger: 2 questions
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Calvino Rabeni: I was noticing during that pause, the tendency to get over-focused on the content and the speech drama
    Blissful Badger: over focused?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, narrowed and specialized,
    Calvino Rabeni: taking less field awareness,
    Blissful Badger: Is it bettr to speak in generalities?
    Calvino Rabeni: and taking a kind of posture that's physical
    Blissful Badger: ?
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello hana
    Hana Furlough: Hi everyone!
    Calvino Rabeni: Hi Hana :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Calvino are you speaking of your own experience? Or sensing something in the group in general ...?
    Paradise Tennant: hiya hana gtsy :))
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Hello Hana, nice to see you again.
    Blissful Badger: Hana - hi. I'm Aph's alt while she's stuck
    Calvino Rabeni: I was doing some self observing
    Blissful Badger listens intently
    Calvino Rabeni: and also thinking of recent studies that look at that kind of thing from the third person view
    Paradise Tennant: smiles at bliss ..and hopes aph is freed soon :)
    Blissful Badger: /bliss grins back
    Hana Furlough: Poor Aph!
    Blissful Badger: We are having a really interesting discussion
    Blissful Badger wonders how to summarize it
    Calvino Rabeni: Linguistics is pretty conservative as a discipline
    Blissful Badger: How conservastive?
    Calvino Rabeni: but seems to be moving into the ability to consider language as embodied
    Blissful Badger: as action?
    Calvino Rabeni: that is to build theories that allow for language as an activity of the body and mind together
    Hana Furlough: language as embodied.... is that like performance?
    Calvino Rabeni: both correlated
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: language uses muscles and the body, so yes, it's embodied ...
    Calvino Rabeni: which brings us back to what Mitzi was saying about the idea of integrating the different functions of the bodymind
    Blissful Badger: through language?
    Paradise Tennant: and movement
    Calvino Rabeni: but it's good to see the linguistic paradigms usedd in academia slowly incorporating that idea
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes language as movement, language as acet
    Hana Furlough: not quickly enough it seems :)
    Calvino Rabeni: *act
    Blissful Badger: the fact that it is slow makes it conservative Cal?
    Calvino Rabeni: not quickly enough - ... yes that's what I meant by conservative
    Calvino Rabeni: very careful, not changing until things are proved, or until somehow an idea as seeped into the entire coulture
    Hana Furlough: it can be a bummer sometimes
    Calvino Rabeni: sometimes it takes a generation, influenced by outside cultural changes
    Calvino Rabeni: that don't have anythhing to do directly with the discipline
    Hana Furlough: or more than a generation
    Hana Furlough: i think that's the key, cal
    Blissful Badger: yes.but thinking things through well is not a bad approach
    Calvino Rabeni: more like change comes from outside the discipline and it adapts
    Hana Furlough: plus the humanistic disciplines are very enamored with scientific paradigms
    Blissful Badger: it all interconnects though Language teory has influenced other fields of thinking
    Blissful Badger: theory
    Hana Furlough: not that there is anything wrong with that, but it is just one "way of knowing," so to speak
    Calvino Rabeni: The scientific paradigms are often the way that things that are anomalous get incorporated
    Blissful Badger: or one way of organizing our concepts
    Hana Furlough: exactly
    Hana Furlough: can you say more, cal?
    Blissful Badger: as new facts come in the structure changes to accommodate them
    Blissful Badger: we are constantly adapting and changing in eternal feedback loops
    Calvino Rabeni: When the existing theories can't explain observations in a satisfactory way, the scientific philosophy is stressed and challenged
    Blissful Badger: /me cant believe she just said that
    Paradise Tennant: not knowing ..
    Paradise Tennant: can be stressful :)
    Paradise Tennant: but mostly we do not know we just pretend otherwise :)
    Paradise Tennant: smiles :)
    Blissful Badger: but coming up with new explanations can be fun
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Blissful Badger: but not necessarily correct
    Hana Furlough: it's all part of the endless play
    Calvino Rabeni: Never truly correct
    Calvino Rabeni: However not completely arbitrary either
    Hana Furlough: exactly
    Calvino Rabeni: but somewhat systematic
    Hana Furlough: it is not an arbitrary kind of play exactly
    Hana Furlough: something beyond random?
    Blissful Badger: It's just the group think that makes me nervous. I've just been reading a book that discusses the McCarthy era.
    Paradise Tennant: horrible time
    Blissful Badger: People were brainwahsed

    Blissful Badger: and indoctrinated with the fear of communism - without their really knowing what communism was. To speak out against this group think was considered unamerican and treasonous.
    Calvino Rabeni: So for example, the classic theories of linguistics have been too arbitrary to deal with embodied cognition, meaning, and social speech acts
    Paradise Tennant: many did though :)
    Calvino Rabeni: The mccarthy era was also the behaviorist era of psychology
    Blissful Badger: yes?
    Blissful Badger: meaning?
    Blissful Badger: was this when Behaviourism was studied?
    Paradise Tennant: sigh I have a very early morning .. going to look forward to reading this log :) thank you .. namaste my friends :)
    Calvino Rabeni: So as a cultural shift, the view that people had a public right to their interiority, was part of the liberalization both of psychology and political values
    Blissful Badger: using the events of this era as a case study?
    Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
    Calvino Rabeni: <333
    Blissful Badger: ?
    Blissful Badger: interesting thanks Cal
    Hana Furlough: must run for now
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I agree that the human race when it acts in groups seems to most frequently manifest that group energy in unthinking, defensive and often violent ways that seem either fear driven or intolerant of nonconformity ... so these days we are just possibly wiggling out of the cocoon maybe, so to speak, to explore how else we could manifest energy in groups ...
    Hana Furlough: thanks for a great short chat
    Hana Furlough: and see you all soon!
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Bye Paradise! Oops she's already gone ...
    Calvino Rabeni: Great to see you Hana
    Blissful Badger: Bye Hana
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: So long, Hana
    Blissful Badger: nicely summarized Mitzi
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes Mitzi
    Calvino Rabeni: how are we wiggling out of the cocoon in this time in history?
    Blissful Badger: I'd love to think we are but I ahve my doubts!
    Calvino Rabeni: Everyone has a part to play .... each individual and each discipline ... but might not know they are working together around common themes
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I am just as leery of groups as anyone! But I've also found that the synergy of working, combining energy with others, produces results just impossible to achieve by a single individual ... also, as social animals we can't resist hanging out with each other. So I've decided to keep looking at all that to see what's good and how to play with that more ...
    Calvino Rabeni: So the linguists see it one way, the dancers another, the writers another, etc.
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes it's worth it, Mitzi
    Blissful Badger: As there is some process within the group dynamic to allow for alternate opinions, I see no problenms
    Calvino Rabeni: worth getting into ... what did someone call it .. the uncomfortable zones
    Blissful Badger: Alling for diversity of ideas, actions, values that achieve a common cause?
    Blissful Badger: Allowing for
    Calvino Rabeni: A synergy of common causes
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I've also seen organizations where consensus=based decision making process bogs down all action to a total standstill. Because people just have different opinions. So how does one move forward with action in a group considering how different everyone's opinions ar?
    Blissful Badger: yes! allowing for uncomforable zones!
    Calvino Rabeni: which may, I hesitate to say, incorporate some conflicts and dialectics
    Blissful Badger: yes. and get a good facilitator!
    Blissful Badger: and allow for a lot of time
    Calvino Rabeni: I'd say, everyone can learn a little facilitation, or a little of the ability to respond
    Blissful Badger: debate is great within a safe space
    Calvino Rabeni: The safe container yes
    Blissful Badger: what did Habermas call it: the ideal speach situation?
    Calvino Rabeni: in a lot of ways the safe container has more to do with experiences and relationships
    Blissful Badger: Theoretically that's what democratic governments are
    Blissful Badger: can you say more Cal?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Calvino, here's a question: about the safe container. For some, the same safety where they can express freely produces expressions that other's perceive as attacking and unsafe.
    Calvino Rabeni: The idea of a group is often artificial ... if it forms for a specific purpose its often a brittle structure
    Blissful Badger: how brittle?
    Calvino Rabeni: on the other hand, if the people in the group have a great deal in common otherwise, includeing personal relationships, that involve trust, than that group will be much more resiliient
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: People have differing self-defintions of "Safety". Vastly differing! Somewhere people have to sign off on an agreed upon way of resolving conflicts and making rules to govern the group.
    Geo Solari: Cal, can you explain why it is brittle please?
    Calvino Rabeni: Its brittle because its formed by an "idea" rather than by emotional commitments people have to each other
    Calvino Rabeni: there was a good essay on the civil rights movement recently in the New Yorker
    Blissful Badger: I agree that trust is an essential oil that moves the wheels of consencus
    Calvino Rabeni: pointing out what a difficult and challenging movement it was
    Blissful Badger: consensus
    Calvino Rabeni: It absolutely depended on the pre-existence of the web of relationships of the southern churches
    Calvino Rabeni: the way the people knew and trusted each other
    Calvino Rabeni: and also some good organizational leadership
    Calvino Rabeni: but without the web of relationships, the leadership would have not been effective

    Calvino Rabeni: because the structure would have been too brittle
    Blissful Badger: which southern churches are you referring to
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Black southern churches
    Blissful Badger: Oh, of course
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Calvino Rabeni: this essay got people thinking / talking about this matter
    Calvino Rabeni: http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&num=10&hl=en&q=lcolm+gladwell+civil+rights+new+yorker
    Blissful Badger: Being from Canada the reference is a bit obscure
    Calvino Rabeni: about what it takes for change, what the container might be
    Calvino Rabeni: its social dimensions
    Blissful Badger: the social context
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Calvino Rabeni: its not like some individual decides - I'm not gonna take it any more, I'm going to rock the boat
    Calvino Rabeni: there's a lot more to it
    Calvino Rabeni: although typically the leaders and individuals get valorized
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Thanks, Calvino, that's very insightful about the pre-existing web of relationships (and trust) being the necessary underlying structure .. the resilience, etc. ...
    Blissful Badger: It happens when there is more than one voice in the wilderness, a collective
    Calvino Rabeni: Like Rosa Parks ... well she'd been attending support groups for interfaith dialogue and race relations for some time, gathering group consciousness and support
    Blissful Badger: for the benefit of all. Trouble is those movements often turn ugly - look at Germany, China,
    Calvino Rabeni: so in a way she and her actions were an expression of those groups
    Blissful Badger: and vice versa
    Calvino Rabeni: And I'd guess, a lot of the time it looked pretty pointless to the participants
    Calvino Rabeni: thinking - what the **** good will this do?
    Calvino Rabeni: As they struggled out of their cocoons
    Blissful Badger: she was doing collective action long before she sat in the front of the bus
    Calvino Rabeni: exactly
    Calvino Rabeni: And when someone knows ... that a radical change is needed, it's not well-defined and clear to think about
    Calvino Rabeni: quite the opposite usually
    Calvino Rabeni: awkward, chaotic, troublesome-seeming
    Blissful Badger: It's fuelled by passion and not rational thought?
    Blissful Badger: that's where good leaders are needed
    Calvino Rabeni: Theres something to be said for that I think
    Calvino Rabeni: the rational thought is often, an after-thought
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Martin Luther King educated his movement to stick resolutely to the non-violent approach of Gandhi, and how powerful that turned out to be! So that's a great example of strugging out of the cocoon ... and a good reason why King is so praised and admired - justifiably so in my opinion. Also he was a fantastic orator, very amazing.
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, but so were any of the individual who got up to speak in their small groups
    Calvino Rabeni: they were the cocoon breakers
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: No doubt.
    Calvino Rabeni: King was a focuser
    Calvino Rabeni: of the light that was already there
    Geo Solari: I think that passion gives the necessaty energy toa group to exist. Reason reduces the entropy or better disorder
    Blissful Badger: One would need a leader with passion and clear plan of action in order to sustain the energy
    Calvino Rabeni: Reason seems to go along with systems and theories ... when those need to change, then reason can be a conservative force
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes, Geo, I agree. Both are necessary. The art of the leadership is to create a good recipe with the right amount of each and apply the right amount of heat at the right times to bake the cake
    Calvino Rabeni: Except perhaps for visionary leaders, but even there, I feel they only make coherent, other people's thinking, the collective thiniking
    Blissful Badger: and to pass on the recipe to othrs
    stevenaia Michinaga: sometimes the power of the simple message soars higher
    Blissful Badger: so it is sustainable
    Blissful Badger: Can't just bake the cake once
    Calvino Rabeni: When a paradigm changes, the new way or Tao appears as "chaos" at first ... later it looks simple and obvious
    Blissful Badger: That's what the Mad men say too!
    Blissful Badger: (Madison avenue men)
    Blissful Badger: The more you hear the message, the more convinced it is true
    Blissful Badger: Sorry - I'm being argumentative.!
    Blissful Badger: But IS it true?

    Blissful Badger whispers "this skeptic is going to take her leave now. Thanks for the wonderful discussion everyone"
    Calvino Rabeni: That sounds like one of those multi-sided questions :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: bedtime for me too
    Calvino Rabeni: And the skeptic might leave before its well formulated
    Blissful Badger: :-) good
    stevenaia Michinaga: night all
    Calvino Rabeni: but glad to have you here :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye Steve ... Bliss
    Blissful Badger: :-) we'll talk more- for sure
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Blissful Badger ... have a blissful night ...
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: who's he skeptic?
    Geo Solari: Good night!
    Calvino Rabeni: Badger the skeptic
    Calvino Rabeni: might have been trying to steal the argumentative role
    Calvino Rabeni: for tonight
    Calvino Rabeni: Not that I mind, because it's a thankless job
    Geo Solari: Your conversation was very thought provoking. I am excited!
    Calvino Rabeni: I was thinking yesterday, what makes a conversation that people say is "a good one"
    Calvino Rabeni: being provoked I think, a little, maybe excited, but for me also within the realm of getting some things to settle back down
    Geo Solari: For me personally, when it makes me see a new aspect of things.
    Calvino Rabeni: like a whole cycle of excitement ... frorm kind of dull, to interesting, to exciting, to accepting, to a little satisfying
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I'm curious, Geo, what specifically sparked your interest?
    Calvino Rabeni: right seeing a new aspect of things is part of a learning process
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes that's a good question
    Calvino Rabeni: Mitzi is good at taking things to specifics, thanks :)
    Geo Solari: You know your discussion brought new things to my mind. I usually think from a systems perspectivee
    Calvino Rabeni: I like a systems perspective too
    Geo Solari: if a group becomes large its dymanic is so large that leaders can do only little
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: A kind of a self-organizing system, rather than a leader-led one? (if that makes sense ...) ,..
    Calvino Rabeni: thats why we have many subgroups working in diffferent directions
    Geo Solari: Yes
    Calvino Rabeni: and having their conflicts
    Geo Solari: Subgroups but there is not any person in the group who can feel everything that happens in the group
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm trying to think of instances of that idea

    Calvino Rabeni: You're tempting me Mitzi ... :)
    Geo Solari: Excuse me, Unfortunately I have to leave. Time to go to my work. I really enjoyed the discussion! I feel you are remarkable very remarkable people
    Geo Solari: Bye!
    Calvino Rabeni: Thanks for coming by Geo, take care, talk to you later
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Thanks Geo ,... hope you come again. I usually only come to this Sunday evening meeting. I hope to see you again another time.
    Calvino Rabeni nods
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Tempting you in terms of ...???
    Calvino Rabeni: Well I think you might be asking for a general idea about the difference between generality and specificity :)
    Calvino Rabeni: So in other words, something like, in general, there's a reciprocal relationship between specificity an generality
    Calvino Rabeni: but you might easily find specific cases to the contrary
    Calvino Rabeni: As the saying goes, "in theory there's no difference between theory and practice, but in practice ... there is"
    Calvino Rabeni: Anyway, I thought you might be interested in that work on embodiment in linguistics
    Calvino Rabeni: because it may relate to your practical interests
    Calvino Rabeni: in a theoretical way of course
    Calvino Rabeni: Well I'd say specifically, I do care what "the linguists" generally think.
    Calvino Rabeni: for example
    Calvino Rabeni: I know a guy who is kind of pushing the envelope
    Calvino Rabeni: and talks to academics in these fields
    Calvino Rabeni: and notes that frequently, well they are interested in talking outside the box
    Calvino Rabeni: and find it stimulating and even influential in the long run
    Calvino Rabeni: but they can't justify it for public discussion within the bounds of their discipline
    Calvino Rabeni: so the real changes happen in the gray area outside the box
    Calvino Rabeni: What I like to do is scan the leading edges of those disciplines
    Calvino Rabeni: and then try to intuitively correlate them with other changes in other disciplines
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Cool ...
    Calvino Rabeni: For instance, this:
    Calvino Rabeni: http://psychology.emory.edu/soundsymbolismworkshop2010/
    Calvino Rabeni: They are challenging part of the dogma of linguistics
    Calvino Rabeni: which assumes that language can be studied in its own abstract sphere
    Calvino Rabeni: as if its an arbitrary formal system
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: is that like a hidden underlying assumption?
    Calvino Rabeni: and that words bear no relationship, except an arbitrary (conventional) one, to the real world things being signified
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes its not very well hidden, it's part of the standard as far as I can see
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: This is a lot like the whole artificial intelligence thing of meaning being the manipulation of symbols versus my own view that there is no such thing ... it's all an emergent property of a very huge complex system that emerges out of reality (Gibsonian perception) ...
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I am so glad I didn't enter academia where all the career tests say I should be

    Mitzi Mimistrobell: The "Synaesthesia" topic looks fascinating!
    Calvino Rabeni: You'd probably have felt intellectually oppressed or confined...
    Calvino Rabeni: I'd say, you're just thinking a generation or two ahead of things
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I'm kind of surprised that such a perspective still persists, actually ... Yes, I checked out grad school and saw that one would be tied to a specific narrow research interest for quite a while
    Calvino Rabeni: not a comfortable place to be
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I was more interested in the broader bigger quesstions ... and grad school seemed to go the exact opposite direction.
    Calvino Rabeni: Right, I felt the same way in computer science
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Good thing we don't care about stuff like, money, security, health insurance, fame or fortune!
    Calvino Rabeni: I've been enjoying the TED video talk collection lately
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes, I'm a generation or two ahead of the bell curve. In fact, I was thinking about taxing soft drinks and junk food twenty years ago, and now that idea is getting some air time ...
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I should check that out! Do I just google TED?
    Calvino Rabeni: I noticed Scott Kim has a talk on that site ... haven't watched it yet
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: He DOES?!?! I will definitely watch that. He's a wonderful guy who is pretty ahead of his time as well.
    Calvino Rabeni: http://www.ted.com/talks/scott_kim_takes_apart_the_art_of_puzzles.html
    Calvino Rabeni: And theres a worthwhile talk on Positive Psychology
    Calvino Rabeni: http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/martin_seligman_on_the_state_of_psychology.html
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Just checked out the Scott Kim video - he looks older but the same. Very confident speaker!
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I won't watch the whole thing yet though.
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Calvino Rabeni: There's also a funny talk on the Virtues of Slowness, in which the speaker talksonrealllyreallyfastandtriestogeteverythingsaidinahurrycrammedintohistimeslot
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: very timely topic!
    Calvino Rabeni: http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/carl_honore_praises_slowness.html
    Calvino Rabeni: slow .... food .... slow .... sex .... slow ...studying at school ...
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I'm in favor of popularizing slowness. There's slow food, slow travel ... how about just slow life?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yeah
    Calvino Rabeni: let me think about that for a month or two
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: O O O O . . . . K K K K . . . . .
    Calvino Rabeni: remember
    Calvino Rabeni: that
    Calvino Rabeni: sto
    Calvino Rabeni: ry
    Calvino Rabeni: by
    Calvino Rabeni: joh
    Calvino Rabeni: nny
    Calvino Rabeni: moses
    Calvino Rabeni: about
    Calvino Rabeni: the
    Calvino Rabeni: sloooooow
    Calvino Rabeni: ....
    Calvino Rabeni: ....
    Calvino Rabeni: man?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ringing a vague bell ...
    Calvino Rabeni: I'd tell it, but it would take another three hours
    Calvino Rabeni: but I think one takeaway (the basic idea abstracted for speed)
    Calvino Rabeni: is that the native storytellers would have these stories and story arcs
    Calvino Rabeni: that went on for

    Calvino Rabeni: hmmm not sure, maybe 20 hours for a story?
    Calvino Rabeni: Just guessing
    Calvino Rabeni: Homeric, in other words
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Well they had nothing else to do anyway!
    Calvino Rabeni: Well we do ...?
    Calvino Rabeni: But could say - SAY that is ...
    Calvino Rabeni: that what's happening at Play as Being is just one story
    Calvino Rabeni: that's been going on four times a day for at least a couple years
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: And it's all being documented for posterity which is very nice ...
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: So Calvino I think I'll fly away slowly
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Thanks for yet another excellent session!
    Calvino Rabeni: Disjointed as it might seem to appear ... its unity purely (but validly) a matter of perspective
    Calvino Rabeni: I shall fly also - the moon's still rather full
    Calvino Rabeni: Thanks as always Mitzi :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Indeed it is~!
    Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Bye Cal!
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye !

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