2010.11.28 19:00 - Weather Report

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Calvino Rabeni. The comments are by Calvino Rabeni.

    Geo Solari: hello, may i sit here?
    Calvino Rabeni: Good evening Geo, Rhi
    Calvino Rabeni: Sure please have a seat
    Rhiannon Dragoone: hi Cal,
    Rhiannon Dragoone: please give me sometime to rez
    Rhiannon Dragoone: i'll sit as soon as things rez
    Rhiannon Dragoone: I don't even see Geo
    Rhiannon Dragoone: he's not even on my radar
    Calvino Rabeni: He is opposite my position across the water
    Rhiannon Dragoone: ok, i tried sitting and i am blued out
    Calvino Rabeni: the sitting worked, but with a nonstandard animation
    Geo Solari: What is the technical problem with Rhia? Maybe it is a naive question. Iam new to SL and I see everybody...
    Rhiannon Dragoone: it might be bandwidth, Geo
    Rhiannon Dragoone: or my wireless
    Geo Solari: Oh
    Rhiannon Dragoone: ur not supposed to make a connection even on wireless, although everyone does
    Rhiannon Dragoone: i can see you now, though ur greay
    Rhiannon Dragoone: And now i can't see Cal
    Rhiannon Dragoone: i'm beginning to think the Goddess doesn't want me here
    Calvino Rabeni: Is that the internet goddess?
    Geo Solari: Nice metaphor Internet goddess
    Rhiannon Dragoone: ok, i can't sit; i tried clicking on a cushion
    Calvino Rabeni: I wonder what percent of talk in second life is of the "can you see me now" variety
    Calvino Rabeni: You look fine, Rhi
    Geo Solari: I miss Albert
    Calvino Rabeni: Never know who will show up
    Calvino Rabeni: I think you mean Boxy?
    Rhiannon Dragoone: that's true
    Rhiannon Dragoone: i find it an adventure coming here
    Geo Solari: Yes boxy. I like his remarks. He makes me feel calm
    Calvino Rabeni: He's fun

    Rhiannon Dragoone: is there any convo going on?
    Calvino Rabeni: It might be more relaxing in a way if there were an agenda :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Or if there were a way to say - "what's on the list of common things I'm thinking about and you are"
    Rhiannon Dragoone: oh, one common thing would be computer connection
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Soup
    Geo Solari: Cal you are creating an agenda now, I think
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, that's what a good facilitator does
    Calvino Rabeni: Yeah,... it would be nice to have a subset of the common things that seems sort of interesting or unusual or something
    Calvino Rabeni: I just have to confess, my mind gets rather numb these days with the talk about technology
    Calvino Rabeni: that is, how it doesn't quite work right
    Geo Solari: Technology, but it governs our life actually
    Calvino Rabeni: Governs is a somewhat kind sounding word
    Calvino Rabeni: Almost benign sounding
    Geo Solari: I mean technology has a momentum that it is difficult for anyone to avoid it
    Calvino Rabeni: Like a fish in water
    Calvino Rabeni: There are so many uses and effects of technology - all different varieties
    Geo Solari: but water is good for fish, technology for humans?
    Calvino Rabeni: Some things creative, some confusing, some fun, some boring and benumbing
    Calvino Rabeni: I can barely conceive of a generality about it that makes sense
    Geo Solari: I am intersted in discussion about climate change lately
    Geo Solari: interested
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm interested in that too
    Calvino Rabeni: Which angles do you think about?
    Geo Solari: First I am confused about the facts. Second i am confused about the solutions that are proposed
    Calvino Rabeni: There's hardly anything people do that doesn't have some effect on climate, and the overall effect is the aggregate of everything people do and all their reasons for doing it

    Calvino Rabeni: Because its an aggregate effect, there aren't narrow causes, and therefore not simple solutions
    Rhiannon Dragoone: hi!
    Rhiannon Dragoone: what are we talking about?
    Rhiannon Dragoone: And sorry i can't sit now; i'm on my text client (again)
    Calvino Rabeni: WB Rhi !Just started .. .climate change
    Geo Solari: I would like to know the degree of predictability of the climate models. Second what is the net energy of the soluttions that are offerd. Are they real solutions?
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Does it bother you, Geo, that i'm standing? If it does, i'll leave
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, most climate models are GIGO; they only work with the right data
    Geo Solari: I do not mind at all Rhia. I told you i find you very interesting
    Rhiannon Dragoone: ty Geo
    Rhiannon Dragoone: After last night though, i want to make sure i'm not disturbing the group
    Calvino Rabeni: hmmm
    Calvino Rabeni: hardly any group to be disturbed, at the moment
    Calvino Rabeni: what's your feeling, Rhi, do you think whatever happened last night, is a pattern likely to repeat itself?
    Calvino Rabeni: Or has some learning and adaptation occured?
    Geo Solari: But I am a recent visitor here...
    Rhiannon Dragoone: I find it ironic that when ppl are most concerned with climate, it is alwasy a sign it's going to snow
    Calvino Rabeni: How did you find this activity in Second Life, Geo?
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Cal, well, this morning, i borrowed a computer to position myself behind the pole, knowing i'd be on a text client, and it was fine; although after the meeting, one woman was curious as to why I was hiding
    Rhiannon Dragoone: But even Maxine was good with it
    Rhiannon Dragoone: And it's happened twice, so yeah, i feel it could happen again; that's why i tried to use a full viewer, so i could sit
    Rhiannon Dragoone: And now i feel exposed, standing here without a pole to hide behind
    Calvino Rabeni: People read a lot into appearances
    Calvino Rabeni: DO you want a pole?
    Rhiannon Dragoone: well, if more ppl come, then yes
    Rhiannon Dragoone: but if ur and Geo aren't uncomfortable with me, then i'm fine
    Geo Solari: I heard about SL in a univesity lecture about a month ago. I decided to explore it. I searched places with discussion . I like this place
    Calvino Rabeni: What was the lecture about?
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, this place has its moments; i keep coming back even when ppl tell me to leave
    Calvino Rabeni: There was an article on NPR day before yesterday
    Geo Solari: About education, technology and education
    Calvino Rabeni nods
    Calvino Rabeni: I wonder what the current buzz is about second life in the are a of education
    Rhiannon Dragoone: well, universities are upset that the lindens are pulling their special rates
    Geo Solari: I usually search the peer review literature about the subjects that i am interested
    Rhiannon Dragoone: But there are profesors who come her
    Rhiannon Dragoone: *here
    Rhiannon Dragoone: I'm~slowly~writing a non fiction novel about my experiences here
    Calvino Rabeni: Can you give me an example of that Geo?
    Geo Solari: You mean example of the way I search?
    Calvino Rabeni: I meant an interesting subject search you did
    Calvino Rabeni: who are the peers and reviewers
    Calvino Rabeni: There are so many online journals in academic areas
    Calvino Rabeni: is that what you mean?

    Geo Solari: Recently i made a search about kinds of knowledge Tacit, explicit, codification of knowledge, knowledge managemente
    Geo Solari: management. Also the nature of probabilities
    Rhiannon Dragoone: that would be interesting, Geo
    Calvino Rabeni: that's quite interesting
    Geo Solari: Would you like yo discuss anything about these subjects?
    Geo Solari: to
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Go ahead and talk to us about them, Geo
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes please
    Geo Solari: About knowledge there several viewe depending on the context. But a dominant view is that of Polanyi that knowledge is like an iceberg. The upper part we can verbally analyze is called expicit knowledge or codified knowledge. But the invisible part tacit knowlede is the greatest part. And the most difficult to manage
    Geo Solari: views
    Rhiannon Dragoone: The knowledge of the heart that only the heart knows
    Geo Solari: This is the sentimental part of the knowledge. But there are issues abut how knowledge is diffused
    Geo Solari: about
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Diffused?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, actually the idea of "knowledge management" implies a whole paradigm about what knowledge might be
    Geo Solari: Tacit knowledge is sticky.
    Geo Solari: But all these views count only in specific contexts
    Rhiannon Dragoone: So what is tacit knowledge?
    Calvino Rabeni: Sticky means, its relevant to specific contexts
    Rhiannon Dragoone: hi Hokon!
    Rhiannon Dragoone: And Hokon is a friend of mine, Cal; so i won't have to hide behind a pole
    Calvino Rabeni: You could say, the notion of "information" is a way to abstract knowledge from as much context as possible. If that is true, than any methodology that is dependent on information, would therefore be more inapplicable to tacit knowledge

    Geo Solari: Tacit knowledge is when we know something but we cannot explain it to others explicitly. You listen to note, for example A, and you say it is A. How do you do it? How do you explain it to others?
    Geo Solari: music note
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Geo, but wouldn't that be covered by the 5 levels of competency?
    Calvino Rabeni: Hi Hokon :) Good to see you again :)
    Geo Solari: Hi Hokon
    Hokon Cazalet: hellos
    Calvino Rabeni: Quite the philosophy club that has coalesced here today
    Hokon Cazalet: lol
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Cal, yes it has, but that reminds me; i was told that i didn't belong her cuz i was too philosophical; even though i had only texts two lines
    Rhiannon Dragoone: So pardon me if i get nervous about that description
    Geo Solari: Yes Rhia , my example is about a skill, but if you examine the skill about its dynamic for diffusion it is different
    Rhiannon Dragoone: But is Polanyi a philosopher? He strikes me more as a psychologist
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, i'm not sure what the 'dynamic for diffusion' is
    Calvino Rabeni: Well as I see it Rhi, what "belongs" is defined by WHO's here
    Rhiannon Dragoone nods at Cal
    Hokon Cazalet: yeah ive been here many times, and said philosophical stuff and been ok, my guess is its some rouge moderator
    Rhiannon Dragoone: I have to adjust my paradigm; when i come to a discussion, i expect to stay for it, but i guess here, there will be times where i will have to leave in the middle of it; depending on who's here
    Calvino Rabeni: however it's true, though, I have some knowledge of philosophy, I don't prefer the intellectual debate pardigm
    Rhiannon Dragoone: hokon, wasn't even a moderator, as far as i can tell
    Hokon Cazalet: oh
    Hokon Cazalet: well youll always get goofballs
    Geo Solari: To be honest i dont know too much about Polanyi's life. But i know there are two Polanyis. I do not care so much about him. I just caught some ideas for education
    Geo Solari: Cal, is this dicussion boring to you?
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Cal, yeah, i think she was making assumptions about me--i was narcissistic, would make everything into a phil debate to attract attention to me
    Rhiannon Dragoone: All because i couldn't sit
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Geo, i'm just asking about his specialty
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Learning theory? Neuropsychology? What?
    Calvino Rabeni: Geo, no not boring at all
    Alfred Kelberry: hello :)
    Hokon Cazalet: hi =)
    Rhiannon Dragoone: So what is Polanyi's specialty? Or the Polanyis
    Rhiannon Dragoone: hi Afred
    Calvino Rabeni: I confessed my main boredom already - technology that doesn't work quite right :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Hey Boxy :))
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Forvive my standing; i'm on my text chat client again
    Hokon Cazalet: hi boxy
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Who's boxy?
    Hokon Cazalet: oh thats al
    Hokon Cazalet: lol
    Geo Solari: Polanyi, a polymath
    Hokon Cazalet: i checked my radar, no bosy, and realized, alf is a box . . .
    Calvino Rabeni: This is Boxy
    Rhiannon Dragoone: But what has he published?
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, ur one up on me, hokon; i'm the little blind girl again
    Geo Solari: Cal, i stop this discussion, sorry
    Calvino Rabeni: There's a tiny av seat over here Alfred
    Hokon Cazalet: why stop . . .
    Alfred Kelberry: hokon, yes, it's a new feature of 2.3.0 client. you can change a name tag.
    Hokon Cazalet: o
    Rhiannon Dragoone: I'll be back in a minute
    Hokon Cazalet: i still use 1.23 lol
    Calvino Rabeni: OK here's one for you, Hokon
    Calvino Rabeni: http://www.integral-review.org/documents/Kupers,%20Phenomenology%20Vol.%205%20No.%201.pdf
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Wish i could use 1.23; they no longer let you down load it
    Calvino Rabeni: And this one for Geo
    Calvino Rabeni: http://triple-c.at/index.php/tripleC
    Rhiannon Dragoone: anyway, i'll be back in a coiuple of minutes
    Alfred Kelberry: ah, poor aph... is still trapped
    Alfred Kelberry: stev! :)
    Hokon Cazalet: gimme a mintue to load, my pc is slow
    Calvino Rabeni: Might have to do a sit in down in san francisco
    Calvino Rabeni: picket signs
    stevenaia Michinaga: Hello
    Geo Solari: Thanks Cal, looks interesting
    Calvino Rabeni: A little knowledge about knowledge is a dangerous thing
    Rhiannon Dragoone: i'm back!
    Rhiannon Dragoone: hi steve
    stevenaia Michinaga: helo Rhi
    Calvino Rabeni: WB Rhi
    stevenaia Michinaga: wb
    Geo Solari: destructive analysis
    stevenaia Michinaga: hi Geo
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Knowledge aboiut knowledge is the only way you can truly know. It's the 5th level of competency
    Geo Solari: Hello Stev
    Calvino Rabeni: I was handing out "interesting links" like a pusher of addictive substances
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, but Geo, there is such a thing as constructive analysis
    Calvino Rabeni: Here's one for Rhia http://integral-review.org/documents/Gunnlaugson,%20Intersubjectivity%20Vol.%205,%20No.%201.pdf
    Hokon Cazalet: seems interesting calvino, though im personally, not a big fan of ken wilber or his ideas
    Rhiannon Dragoone: oh, Cal, could you put it on a notecard?
    Rhiannon Dragoone: There's no way for me to copy and paste it or click on it atm
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Intersubjectivity *is* an interest of mine; that was a very thoughtful gift
    Calvino Rabeni: Sure but Ken has lost control of his ideas, now the cat is out of the bag and an independent community has takien it up
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Cal, what???
    Geo Solari: Of course Rhia, but if you start thinking about how yoy play a piece on the piano you may destroy it
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Barbie's Ken?
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Geo, that's contextual
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Ur at the 4th level when you play a piece
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Then when you teach it to others, you are at the 5th level

    Rhiannon Dragoone: ty Steve, Cal
    Calvino Rabeni: Hokon doesn't care for the integral frameworks of Ken Wilber, I was saying, but there's starting to be more of a movement of independent work
    Hokon Cazalet: well maybe ill look it up again, when i researched ken wilber a year ago . . . well, im not big into new age stuff
    Hokon Cazalet: thats good
    Hokon Cazalet: ill check it out again then
    Rhiannon Dragoone: oh, i'm not familiar with Ken Wilber
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Integral frameworks?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yeah, frankly I'm not a fan of the perennial philosophy approaches either
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes Rhi
    Rhiannon Dragoone: yeah, i tend to put my index fingers together in a sign of the cross when i get to New Age stuff
    Hokon Cazalet: well the only perennial philosophy i can imagine being legit is ancient greek thought . . . since that was the original philosophy
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, it takes all kinds, right, Cal?
    Calvino Rabeni: http://integral-review.org/abstracts/index.asp
    Hokon Cazalet: so yeah, im not inot it much either, since it seems confused, in its use of the word philosophy
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Hokon, oh, there's a *lot* more to the history of philosophy than the Greeks
    Geo Solari: Rhia, the moment you play the piece, if you think how you do it, you destroy it. Regardless of the fact that you know how to teach it
    Hokon Cazalet: the ancient greeks made philosophy a science independent of religion, there are a few spots in the world that did it also; but nothing like what perennial thinkers espouse
    Rhiannon Dragoone: It's good for attracting noobs, and prof philosophers alike to have a perrenial philosophy approach
    Calvino Rabeni: There's a related question, what constitutes a religion . for example Taoism ... whether it is valid to look at it outside its historical and cultural context as a set of independent ideas
    Hokon Cazalet: perennialists typically cite hinduism (thats a religion, sorry), or shamanism (again, religious)
    Rhiannon Dragoone: ok, maybe i'm using the term diffferently than you and Cal, hokon. What do you mean by perrenial philosophy?
    Hokon Cazalet: shamans def dont use logic rigorously, so its not philosophy, hindus, well they did begin to use logic so . . .
    Calvino Rabeni: On the other hand, the academics try to define their fields much more narrowly
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Cal, well, i think i know what you mean. Like Salinger's "little tearer downers."
    Calvino Rabeni: If that's your definition of the word Logic, then sure
    Rhiannon Dragoone: but there is still a play for analysis; to see how the music works; but its neither playing the music or experiencing it
    Hokon Cazalet: logic - the rules of proper inference, advanced by aristotle in the west, and no shamans dont use logical thinking often, they appeal more to magic, supersititioon etc
    Calvino Rabeni: Thats classical logic
    Hokon Cazalet: logic is very clearly defined
    Hokon Cazalet: yes, and symbolic logic didnt change what logic was, just made it work better
    Calvino Rabeni: Well that's one paradigm defining itself
    Rhiannon Dragoone: hokon, 'superstition' is a loaded word; as a logician, you know that
    Rhiannon Dragoone: It's the difference between an analytical-mathematical approach and an intuitive approach
    Hokon Cazalet: im not a logician :??
    Rhiannon Dragoone: both have their paradigms, and are valid within them
    Hokon Cazalet: but no, shamans dont use logic as a rigorous method
    Rhiannon Dragoone: But i see what you are saying, you shouldn't confuse 'philosophy' with shamanism, or other mystical practices
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm usually not impressed by the effort to say - when people use a word, THIS (my meaning) is the only valid one
    Hokon Cazalet: yeah thats my irritation, it helps to perpetuate the myth that philosophy is some loose set of ideas about life; it isn't at all
    Rhiannon Dragoone: No, they don't use logic as a rigorous method, but they do have their own rigorous methodologies, based in their experiences and tradition
    Hokon Cazalet: calvino, check the history of philosophy for 2.5k yrs
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, that is an informal use of the word Logic
    Hokon Cazalet: its really only a few on the fringe or postmoderns who are doing weird stuff with logic
    Calvino Rabeni: to refer to a systematic conceptual methodology of some kind
    Rhiannon Dragoone: well, Cal, Hokon, there are different methodologies, diffferent paradigms, and we shouldn't jude one by the other
    Calvino Rabeni: That would be, Hokin, the orthodox view of the history of western philosophy
    Hokon Cazalet: yes and it has alot of valdiity to it
    Calvino Rabeni: No argument there
    Hokon Cazalet: sorry, orthodox doesnt mean bad inherently
    Rhiannon Dragoone: hokon, no it doesn't
    Hokon Cazalet: i think we can rhia, by their results and methods
    Geo Solari: I must leave. Bye everybody!
    Hokon Cazalet: bye =)
    stevenaia Michinaga: BYE Geo
    Calvino Rabeni: Take care, see you later Geo !
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, hokon, logic is only a syntactic connection, argument always proceeds from a backgroiund of tradition; even the empiritcal sciences build on traditon and paradigms; and 'shamanistic' practices can heal when allopathic medicine can't, can help you remote view, influence at a distance, and get your own subconscious to open up
    Geo Solari: thank you all!
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Different validities
    Rhiannon Dragoone: ur welcome, Geo!
    Rhiannon Dragoone: And thank you,Geo
    Hokon Cazalet: logic is the canon of proper thinking, it is a apriori and universal, you can do the truth tables to see for yourself
    Rhiannon Dragoone: I'm going to look up Polanyi and knowledge management
    Calvino Rabeni: Thats well stated Rhia
    Rhiannon Dragoone: A fresh approach is always stimulating; i could even get a paper out of it
    Rhiannon Dragoone: ty Cal
    Calvino Rabeni: Knowledge management is a chimaera
    Rhiannon Dragoone: logic is an organizational framework for our sentences, hokon
    Calvino Rabeni: You might check out that set of stuff at Triple-C to deconstruct "information" a bit
    Rhiannon Dragoone: it is not the canon of proper thinking
    Hokon Cazalet: id disagree rhia, thats a new definition by analytic thinkers
    Calvino Rabeni: because knowledge management is really an informatics paradigm
    Hokon Cazalet: im using the definition since aristotle, which i have found little reason to reject
    Rhiannon Dragoone: New? Perhaps. But it goes from Aristotle to Quine
    Hokon Cazalet: analytic philosophy adheres to the linguistic turn, which imo was a huge mistake
    Hokon Cazalet: logic is not just about language
    Calvino Rabeni: an organizational framework for inference
    Calvino Rabeni: You might also look up "informal logic"
    Hokon Cazalet: ok
    Calvino Rabeni: say, in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy
    Rhiannon Dragoone: well, if you want to expand he notion of logic, cool, but then what "canons of proper thinking" allow us to reject alpha brain wave training, energy psychology, Chinese medicine, to name just a few things outside of the Western paradigm?
    Calvino Rabeni: Logic is a convention for doing inference on formally defined conceptual structures
    Hokon Cazalet: um alot should be rejected, that stuff is in a pre-scientific state, and without empirical evidence
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Or dismiss millenia of intuitive experience
    Hokon Cazalet: logic is not mere convention, show me how the law of nonc-contradiction is just a convention

    Hokon Cazalet: alot of inuitive experience led to crazy stuff
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, hokon, first i've studied it and have confirming evidence, but secondly, if we subject it to empirical science, we are no longer scrutinizing it from apriori and universal principles
    Hokon Cazalet: should we reject the christian paradigm of creationism? yes of course!
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Once again, it stands outside of logic
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Not outside of reason, but logic, as the canons of proper thinking
    Hokon Cazalet: yet your making an argument for it, thus contradicting yourself
    Hokon Cazalet: you cannot be beyond logic and still use it
    Rhiannon Dragoone: hokon, you mean reject the idea that the universe originated in an extra-cosmic being? Why is tht 'of course?'
    Hokon Cazalet: no
    Calvino Rabeni: Hmmm, isnt that what everyone does most of the time Hokin?
    Rhiannon Dragoone laughs
    Hokon Cazalet: i refer to their inane theory of creationism, their rejection of evolution
    Hokon Cazalet: im not talking theism
    Hokon Cazalet: rejecting evolution is absurd
    Rhiannon Dragoone: If by logic you mean 'argument,' then sure, nothing is outside of logic, but that broadens the concept to the point where it is synonymous with 'reason.'
    Hokon Cazalet: logic deals with the rules of proper argument and reasoning . . .
    Hokon Cazalet: i guess we have to agree to disagree, im not a fan of postmodern arguments
    Hokon Cazalet: i believe in the authority of the sciences and logic
    Rhiannon Dragoone: yeah, this is what lila was worried about; that we'd in up in a debate
    Calvino Rabeni: The greater the rogour and power, the more narrow and brittle the domain of application
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Let the chat log show--hoken started it!
    Hokon Cazalet: lol thts fine
    Rhiannon Dragoone: hi friday!
    Rhiannon Dragoone: lol
    Hokon Cazalet: ill probably for banned anyways, i just critiqued a sacred cow, new age stuff
    Hokon Cazalet: well not critiqued, critizied
    Rhiannon Dragoone: i'm still a little touchy, being booted from one philosophy sim to risk being booted from another
    stevenaia Michinaga: Night all
    Rhiannon Dragoone: nite, steve
    stevenaia Michinaga: quite the discussion
    Rhiannon Dragoone: hokon, they won't ban you here for that; where do you think you are, Philosophy Island?
    Calvino Rabeni: We have, ln the Red corner, Hokon ... the Champion of Methods of Proper Thinking
    Hokon Cazalet: lol
    Hokon Cazalet: Yaaaaayyyyyyyy!
    Calvino Rabeni: No actually I agree with something Rhia said earlier - it takes all types - or something like that
    Rhiannon Dragoone: hi Tewair!
    Calvino Rabeni: We have billions of people, willing to take up and champion all kinds of disciplines and ways of living and thinking
    Calvino Rabeni: resulting in a massive, parallel exploration
    Calvino Rabeni: and if you don't mind me saying, a dialectic
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm grateful I don't have to sign up for the side of logical rigour and anti-subjectivity
    Calvino Rabeni: because other people have that well-covered
    Hokon Cazalet: im not for anti-subjectivity . . .
    Hokon Cazalet: im not even a positivist, empiricist
    Rhiannon Dragoone: A dialectic is the essence of philosophy
    Hokon Cazalet: empiricism imo is a anachronistic philosophy
    Rhiannon Dragoone: There is always a synthesis of opposing viewpoints
    Hokon Cazalet: its been debunked again and again
    Rhiannon Dragoone: I'm not quite with Nozick, who believes all philosophical explorations ae true
    Calvino Rabeni: Unless Rhi you mean "philosophy in the large" which includes complex competition and interbreeding of partly compatible paradigms
    Calvino Rabeni: but is not "performed" by any agency less than the colletive
    Hokon Cazalet: anyway im gonna go, bye all
    Rhiannon Dragoone: I mean by philosophy, the tradition, which has opposing viewpoints, each an exploratin and each having at least a partial truth
    Rhiannon Dragoone: bye, hokon
    Rhiannon Dragoone: nice arguing with you
    Calvino Rabeni: Was good to see you Hokon :)
    Hokon Cazalet: btw, im not an objectivist
    Hokon Cazalet: hehe see ya all =)
    Calvino Rabeni: Yeah come again :)
    Hokon Cazalet: im something more insane
    Hokon Cazalet: MWHAHAHA!!!
    Calvino Rabeni: Ok, next time ....
    Calvino Rabeni: Getting back to what you said last
    Rhiannon Dragoone: ok, Cal
    Rhiannon Dragoone: And Tewair, please feel free to join in
    Calvino Rabeni: "philosophy, the tradition, which has opposing viewpoints, each an exploratin and each having at least a partial truth"

    Calvino Rabeni: hmmm, that must be an informal processs ... An exploration involving paradigms not well defined / understood, not necessarily commensurate, with ambiguous common ground
    Rhiannon Dragoone: well, depends on what you mean by informal
    Calvino Rabeni: SO I'm not sure in what sense the viewpoints are opposing
    Rhiannon Dragoone: yeah, doesn't involve mathematics necessarily, but there are procedures built into the tradtion
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, for instance, a belief that the world had a beginning and didn't have a beginning
    Calvino Rabeni: THE tradition?
    Tewair Faerye: my appologies. exuse me my interfering in your converasation.. buttheboard is not telling much about the Place and it's purposes.. is there any notecard or a info board i could learn about here?
    Rhiannon Dragoone: well, i'm thinking of Western philosophy
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes I'll forward you one
    Rhiannon Dragoone: yeah, there's a lot of lag tonight
    Tewair Faerye: yes, please.
    Calvino Rabeni: The first thing I have to tell a newcomer, is that the chat here is recorded and published on the group web site
    Calvino Rabeni: WHich means there's no expectation of confidentiality or privacy
    Calvino Rabeni: Most people find that acceptable, but if they don't I can remove their statments
    Tewair Faerye: why thank you for the notification.
    Tewair Faerye: i tpes tothe location by incident and overheard the discussio. found it interesting
    Calvino Rabeni: It looks a little different every time depending on who's here
    Tewair Faerye: thank you for the notecard. will read it through.
    Tewair Faerye: ok
    Calvino Rabeni: but the basic style seems to be more contemplative than discussion/debate
    Rhiannon Dragoone: yeah, tonight was very philosophical; other times, ppl just share their feelings
    Calvino Rabeni: feelings or experiences
    Calvino Rabeni: or their expressions
    Rhiannon Dragoone: There was one on the experience of time at 1pm today
    Tewair Faerye: mm.. not so many places to be seriouse in SL
    Rhiannon Dragoone: And a dozen ppl were here
    Calvino Rabeni: This place is intended to find a balance between serious and play
    Calvino Rabeni: The name of the group is "Play as Being"
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Tewair, would you like to join my group? I give phil discussions 2x a week, and i'm a clearing house for other groups that give serious discussion; i even alerted my group to Play at Being
    Rhiannon Dragoone: I estimated tht you could do 20 plus hours a week of "serious" philosophy or public policy discussions
    Tewair Faerye: well i still have to learn the backgrounds and visit some meeting before i actually join in.. what i justdo not fit those discussions? i dont' feel like being non contributive
    Tewair Faerye: butthank you verymuch for invitation. :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Its fine to sit here and not contribut, Tewair :)
    Tewair Faerye: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Maybe not *disrupt*, but some people like to kind of lurk
    Calvino Rabeni: and sometimes
    Calvino Rabeni: this is a meditation group
    Tewair Faerye: ok :) then i andmark the place and will come here sometime
    Tewair Faerye: o lurking is not about me
    Calvino Rabeni: in which silence is perfectly part of what happens
    Tewair Faerye: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: The group is international, and meets four times per day
    Calvino Rabeni: that makes it easy to remember :)
    Calvino Rabeni: 1am 7am 1pm 7pm
    Calvino Rabeni: 24/365 and all that :)
    Tewair Faerye: :) thank you for ur kind attention and for the information youprovided
    Tewair Faerye: i appreciate that :)
    Calvino Rabeni: quite welcome Tewair
    Tewair Faerye: i thik i finally will come :)
    Tewair Faerye: bye for now though
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye :)
    Rhiannon Dragoone: bye, tewair

    Rhiannon Dragoone: hi paradise
    Paradise Tennant: smiles late late session ?
    Paradise Tennant: hiya cal rhia :)
    Calvino Rabeni: yes, still here
    Rhiannon Dragoone: well, i'm abou to leave, but yeah, it's been fun
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Dare I say~philosophical?
    Calvino Rabeni: *it happens* what can I say ? :)
    Rhiannon Dragoone: And sorry i'm standing here like this; it's a long story about bandwidth and lag and viewer failure
    Paradise Tennant: on my screen it looks like you have shower stall on
    Paradise Tennant: no worries
    Calvino Rabeni: That's my doing I'm afraid
    Calvino Rabeni: I think she's mostly disconnected

    Paradise Tennant: so another lively session ?
    Rhiannon Dragoone: yeah, please take that off, Cal
    Calvino Rabeni: You're free
    Rhiannon Dragoone: ty
    Calvino Rabeni: it wasn't actually on, or containing you
    Rhiannon Dragoone: well,i gotta log
    Calvino Rabeni: Take care Rhia
    Rhiannon Dragoone: well, thank you for that
    Paradise Tennant: smiles have a good evening rhia :)
    Rhiannon Dragoone: It's my Philosophy Island syndrome; they do put containers around you there
    Rhiannon Dragoone: So you can't move
    Calvino Rabeni: realy
    Rhiannon Dragoone: oh, you 2 Paradise
    Calvino Rabeni: humph
    Rhiannon Dragoone: So it's not quite PTSD, but having spent almost a year there, i get nervous easily. Why i'm edgy about ppl's attitudes toward me here
    Rhiannon Dragoone: But you and Pardise have been just great!
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Anyway, got to log
    Calvino Rabeni: TY Rhiannon
    Calvino Rabeni: How are you Paradise?
    Paradise Tennant: very well thanks .. long hectic day
    Paradise Tennant: took my mom to Blue's xmas party
    Paradise Tennant: 40 dogs in a room ..many dressed up for santa !
    Paradise Tennant: bedlam
    Paradise Tennant: smiles she loved it !
    Calvino Rabeni: hehehe
    Paradise Tennant: treat table ... set low for doggie noses
    Calvino Rabeni: I know a group that has a weekly dance party
    Calvino Rabeni: one time they decided it was "bring your dog day"
    Paradise Tennant: doggie dancing
    Paradise Tennant: cool!
    Paradise Tennant: my dog walker hosted this one does it every year .. really nice event :) bought some baked goods had on pup unzip my bag twice and almost make off with some meat pies! smart pup
    Paradise Tennant: there is a place where they have doggie dance classes ie. learn dance routines with your dog
    Calvino Rabeni: I knew a dog - cocker spaniel - it acted REALLY DUMB but it turned out it was just interested in food, at which it was a genius
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Calvino Rabeni: I bought a loaf of bread, hid it in my shirt, put that into my pack, put the pack behind the couch and covered it
    Paradise Tennant: hiya mitzi this is the late late session gtsy :)
    Calvino Rabeni: later when I came back the dog had eaten the whole loaf
    Paradise Tennant: lol
    Calvino Rabeni: not being troubled by finding it and unzipping it and getting it out of the bag, etc.
    Calvino Rabeni: and leaving the pack where it was
    Calvino Rabeni: I was impressed
    Paradise Tennant: once had a dog eat the bar of soap off the bathtub edge :)
    Calvino Rabeni: ack
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Hi you two, so glad you're both still here. Sorry for being so very late!
    Calvino Rabeni: I knew one that ate a zipper
    Calvino Rabeni: Hi Mitzi
    Calvino Rabeni: good to see you
    Paradise Tennant: butter in the cupboard was fair game ..would only catch her in her later years when she got deaf :)
    Paradise Tennant: smiles just got here too
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes, dogs eating strange things, very engaging topic!
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Why do they do that.
    Calvino Rabeni: Now I have a siamese kitten - it SO wants to get into EVERYWHERE
    Paradise Tennant: frozen whole turkey including the brown paper ..
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Calvino Rabeni: that for instance it pulls out the metal sink stopper and then reaches down inside the hole
    Calvino Rabeni: just to see what is in there
    Calvino Rabeni: there is NO place it hasn't explored
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: My neighbor's kitty is very shy ... yet, she was ready to enter my house when I had the door open ... I saw curiosity and fear fighting with each other in her ...
    Paradise Tennant: once had a kitten slide down the heating duct to land in the furnace happily in the summer months .. but it meowing echoed through the house like a plaintiff ghost took a while to find her :)
    Paradise Tennant: smiles fear and curiosity :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: lucky kitten that you got her out!
    Paradise Tennant: had a friend's dog who would answer her calls when the phone rang would not the receiver off and bark at it :) she had to put on call forward when she went to work
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I have a theory about human behavior that this fear/cuiosity reminded me of ...
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Want to hear about it ...?
    Paradise Tennant: listens
    Calvino Rabeni: yes of course lay it on, I'm curious
    Calvino Rabeni: or more than worried what I might hear
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I think our social behavior is governed by layers of fear. So, we're afraid of the dominant leaders of our tribe ... so we conform ... (and probably not consciously aware of this layer of fear) ...
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Then, on top of that is fear of the outsiders. So, we are MORE afraid of them because at least the tribal leaders are on our side ...

    Mitzi Mimistrobell: But, peel off the fear and we all are ready to dominate and torture others, as the Stanford prison experiments showed. ...
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Sounds so awful ... but there it is ... Sigh ...
    Paradise Tennant: hmmm do not believe that is true of everyone alarming as though studies suggest it is .. but we get easily desensitized .. why I do not watch violence :) do not think it is a healthy thing to do
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: This helps explain bullying ... important part of our social conditioning. Find our place in the pecking order.
    Paradise Tennant: pack behaviour
    Calvino Rabeni: I rather like our PaB "pack" :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes. It's an efficient if crude method of self-organizing a society. There are naturally dominant and naturally less-so individuals ... they sort themselves into a structure and by god, stuff gets done.
    Calvino Rabeni: you sounded almost apologetic
    Paradise Tennant: smiles you need some dominance in a group
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Ah ... do you see evidence of this in the Pab pack, or is there a glimmer of enlightened group behavior here?
    Paradise Tennant: some organizing
    Paradise Tennant: looks and Cal and listens
    Calvino Rabeni: Pack as Being
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Ha ha ha ha ha!
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: (fun with "gestures")
    Calvino Rabeni: So I'm thinking, being enlightened is a property of the group also
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Did I sound apologetic? almost? I thought I was being a gritty hard-ass ...
    Calvino Rabeni: I thought so :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: an emergent property .... ?
    Calvino Rabeni: That you think its "hard ass"
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, emergent
    Calvino Rabeni: but what I relate to in your idea, is simply the notion to look at an emotion as being part of a social structure
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes, of course, that makes sense. Fractal like ... each level replicates the structure of its components
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... and adds its own properties as well ...
    Calvino Rabeni: Here's what made me think "apologetic" -
    Calvino Rabeni: Sounds so awful ... but there it is ... Sigh ...
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: (still enjoying the champagne punch, by the way ... all this philosophizing makes one thirsty ...)
    Calvino Rabeni: (quoted)
    Calvino Rabeni: You missed some hard core
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes, I feel a bit of shame for the human race ... disdain ...
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: What did I miss, calvino?
    Calvino Rabeni likes that topic
    Paradise Tennant: shame ?
    Calvino Rabeni: Well more the shame than the disdain, although that could be interesting too
    Paradise Tennant: so is fear :) that is a challenging one too :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: YOu know, like, reality TV and all ... if some aliens came here, I would try to rush themm past that and show them wonderful architecture, natural wonders, but avoid some of our cruder manifestations ...
    Calvino Rabeni: Here's the "theme weather report" .... in the groups around me the buzz is about ... (1) authenticity (or lying), (2) shame (or empathy), (3) intersubjectivity
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Reality TV reminds me of the ancient Romans' spectacles of gladiators, animals, etc. killing each other ina public arena ... I was thinking we are past that, maybe a titch past that ...
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I love that! The "theme weather report"
    Paradise Tennant: hmm walked through the forum in january .. it had a very heavy feel to it was happy to go
    Calvino Rabeni: The barometer for the theme weather .... is the pressure rising or falling ... meaning, are there some new insights and creative thoughts happening
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Remind me what "intersubjectivity" means?
    Calvino Rabeni: it means subjectivity that is shared, part of the "between" among people
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Do you feel the barometer rising? I would say that I feel that in my little corner of the universe here in Boulder, Colorado ...
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Calvino Rabeni: its rising around at least those topics in this little bayou

    Mitzi Mimistrobell: To be intersubjective, does it need to be seen as such by those feeling the similar things? Or could it be unconscious but just a manifestation of underlying resonance/connectivity/whatever?
    Calvino Rabeni: Excellent distinction Mitzi :) there are emergent and contrasting or complementary models, but some of them indeed look at the influence of collective unconscious processes
    Calvino Rabeni: Basically it's hard to think about .. its the water to which we are the fish
    Calvino Rabeni: In other words there are background structures that are the "subject" proir to the formation of experience, and that means, not accessible to direct experiential knowing
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Uh huh ... so that's interesting that this topic is even being discussed .... shows people are looking a bit deeper perhaps?
    Calvino Rabeni: and some of them collective
    Calvino Rabeni: but there's plenty of paradigms to go around
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, it's interesting the different groups that are looking
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: But what's high on the "meme-ometer" is what we were touching upon ...
    Paradise Tennant: hmm swung by work tonight walking home ..by an lovely soccer field blue and I did a run about .. no one around .. we jumped danced ran .. twirled .. for a moment looking up the black moonless sky . it made me think of just being energy .. corked up in a bottle of sorts :) sometimes think .. that is pretty much it in groups it is just shared energy :)
    Calvino Rabeni nods
    Calvino Rabeni: energy ... a felt sense of something that exists, but is prior to interpretation
    Paradise Tennant: we feel it .
    Paradise Tennant: versus think it
    Calvino Rabeni: One interesting phrase is "the feeling of knowing"
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I can relate to that image, Paradise - "being cooped up in a bottle of sorts" - yes, that's what it feels like to me sometimes. Or, that I'm the universal consciousness peeping through a tiny, very specific little peephole into a miniature world of wonders, like a dollhouse, or the "Borrowers" that holds a certain fascination ..."
    Paradise Tennant: smiles at mitzi and nods yes !
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Like God is fascinated with my life like an amazing fairy world ... tiny things that don't exist at the larger level.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I feel that the same invisible forces that make us so definitely separate beings even though our energy is identical ... is also structuring these group connections that are hidden from us
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: keeping them hidden from us I mean. Not sure if I said what I mean, or even if I *know* what I mean to say here ...
    Calvino Rabeni: Is anyone up for a sit - maybe 10 minutes from 10:00to 10:10?
    Calvino Rabeni: We could frame one of these ideas for contemplation .. or just do a heart meditaiton
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: All right, I like that idea.
    Calvino Rabeni: Separateness and connection perhaps
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Paradise Tennant: sometimes think there are strings :) we just do not see :) but our heart knows somehwo
    Paradise Tennant: 10 minutes sounds great
    Calvino Rabeni: If I fall asleep, the next bell will wake me up at 15 :)

    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Can you frame the contemplation for us please Calvino? I think that would help me focus
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Separateness and connection it is.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Are we still contemplating? (shyly)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: very nice ...
    Calvino Rabeni: (ting)
    Paradise Tennant: blinks and smiles
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ...
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: well I felt connected to both of you ...
    Paradise Tennant: smiles a very big smile at mitzi me too :)
    Paradise Tennant: nice feeling :) to be still together :)
    Calvino Rabeni: a very delicious taste

    Paradise Tennant: blows out her candle ..watches the smoke rise from it in lazy spirals ..
    Paradise Tennant: sighs and rises to say good night ..the sand man cometh :)
    Paradise Tennant: sweet dreams you two :))
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I was thinking that the more refined / "spiritual" our experience is, the more we feel connected, and the more crude and heavy, the more we feel separated.
    Calvino Rabeni: Fly well, Paradise :)
    Paradise Tennant: very profound thought mitzi
    Paradise Tennant: very true
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: seeing that reality is like a "pousse-cafe" cocktail ... where
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: \the denser layers sink and the lighter layers rise
    Calvino Rabeni: A sit like that can create a great deal of those subtle upper layers
    Paradise Tennant: smiles :) namaste :)
    Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Namaste and sweet dreams to you as well, Paradise ...
    Paradise Tennant: thank you mitzi cal lovely session will sleep well :) with thoughts of cocktails and puppy dogs :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Always good to be with you.
    Calvino Rabeni: <333
    Calvino Rabeni: Thanks for stopping by,Mitzi :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I hate to miss it you know ... it's gotten to be quite the Sunday evening habit for me.
    Calvino Rabeni smiles
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes same feeling here
    Calvino Rabeni: Its the "mix"
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes
    Calvino Rabeni: For the log - http://www.amazon.com/Unspoken-Voice-Releases-Restores-Goodness/dp/1556439431
    Calvino Rabeni: Its apropos of another conversation on Basic Goodness
    Calvino Rabeni: that we were having in a more buddhist context
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: That should be a good antidote to disdain and shame for humanity!
    Calvino Rabeni: yes it should :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I like it being tied into western ideas of mind and body
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: So have a pleasant evening and adventurous dreams ...
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: See you next time Calvino ...
    Calvino Rabeni: Take care, Mitzi <333

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