2010.12.05 19:00 - Stone Man Plays the Field

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Calvino Rabeni. The comments are by Calvino Rabeni.

    Snapshot_035.jpg

    Paradise Tennant: hiya cal .. :)
    Paradise Tennant: contemplating a new look :)
    Paradise Tennant: great pic :) what is it :)
    Calvino Rabeni: :) Hi Paradise
    Paradise Tennant: thinking new guinea ?
    Paradise Tennant: smiles :)
    Calvino Rabeni: The stone man - there is an island off the coast of Thailand with a secret valley near its top, which has lots of life size statues
    Calvino Rabeni: carved from stone
    Paradise Tennant: ahh kk :)
    Paradise Tennant: lovely
    Calvino Rabeni: this one represents an indigenous forest dweller
    stevenaia Michinaga: hi
    Paradise Tennant: hiya stevenaia :) gtsy :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Good envening Stevenaia
    Paradise Tennant: hiya mitzi :) gtsy :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Mitzi
    --BELL--


    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Good evening everyone. Steve, Calvino, Paradise an whose this to my left?
    Paradise Tennant: a stone man :)
    Paradise Tennant: is this a valley you have been to cal :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes I'd like to go again
    Calvino Rabeni: Hi Mitzi :)
    Paradise Tennant: smiles .. sounds compellingly mysterious :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Hi Calvino ...
    Paradise Tennant: how is everyone tonight :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: typing in between Qui Gong :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I'm rather well, kind of calm, feeling settled.
    Paradise Tennant: smiles at stevenaia in the flow :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: with cat weaving between my legs
    Paradise Tennant: smiles feline Qui Gong !
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I would say ... that's advanced! Typing in between?
    Paradise Tennant: indeed !
    stevenaia Michinaga: there are pauses betweeen the moves, it;s the reading of the screen that is dificult
    Paradise Tennant: smiles I am back from a spending the weekend in the country ... with old friends drinking wine laughing ..eating ..did some antiquing .. found a treasure trove in a used books store ..so very mellow .. :) and a bit sleepy :)
    Paradise Tennant: but peaceful :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: how delightful that sounds Paradise
    Paradise Tennant: yes was really nice just always go by so quick :)
    Paradise Tennant: bought quite a few books one on madagascar .. one the tao of wu :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: madagascar has always intrigued me. Those amazing looking trees! and the lemurs ... an indication of how many different directions life on this planet could have evolved given slightly different conditions ...
    Paradise Tennant: yes have some friend who live in france who are from there and have invited me to join them in may for a trip home :)
    Paradise Tennant: thinking of going :)
    Paradise Tennant: they go back maybe every five years
    Paradise Tennant: their daughter stayed with me for a couple of years just recently .. :)
    Paradise Tennant: looks interesting
    Paradise Tennant: very different from here :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: sounds like an advernture for both of you
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    stevenaia Michinaga: "
    --BELL--


    stevenaia Michinaga: tao of wu sounds like an intreging book, looking at it online
    stevenaia Michinaga: hip hop and Tao
    Paradise Tennant: yes flipping through it now ..
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: wu tang clan? rza?
    Paradise Tennant: rza
    stevenaia Michinaga: smiles
    Paradise Tennant: can you tell us a bit about the stone man cal ..what was the valley like when you visited ?
    Calvino Rabeni: It's on the island of Koh Samui off the coast of Thailand
    Calvino Rabeni: the place is called Secret Garden or Magic Garden
    Calvino Rabeni: and as I understand it was a labor of love (or devotion) of some man
    Calvino Rabeni: A gardener
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm not sure the age of the place
    Calvino Rabeni: it took years to do
    Calvino Rabeni: It can be googled of course
    Calvino Rabeni: no secret place is as secret as in yesteryear
    Calvino Rabeni: It would be nice to see a book or special web page about it
    Calvino Rabeni: mostly what one finds is mentions in tourism web sites
    Paradise Tennant: one man carved all the statues ?
    Paradise Tennant: must have taken a while
    Calvino Rabeni: 25 years]
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: what specifically attracts you or intrigues you about this place .. or the stone man, Calvino ... that you've brought him here to show us?
    Calvino Rabeni: The stone man showed the older race of forest dwellers
    Calvino Rabeni: there is something about the statues there, that has both fantasy and a feeling of presence
    Calvino Rabeni: a lot of "easy individuality" in those works
    Paradise Tennant: like the eyes on this one
    Calvino Rabeni: as if they represent not just an idea
    Calvino Rabeni: or an archetype, but an individual
    Calvino Rabeni: http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/pkmjGa2b6QfYZjsdbqG5VQ?feat=directlink
    Calvino Rabeni: And that's true of the animal forms also
    Calvino Rabeni: its hard to define
    Calvino Rabeni: I see it as a property of the artist
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: wow ... being there in person you must have felt that in a real way to be so affected by it
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Hi Aphrodite, long time no see
    Calvino Rabeni: manifested in the art itself
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hello everyone. That is a beautiful sculpture Calvino
    stevenaia Michinaga: hi Aphrodite
    Calvino Rabeni: Aphrodite - free at last
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hi- thought I'd pop in and say hi
    Calvino Rabeni: although the world had to break down for that to happen
    Aphrodite Macbain: may I ask what you are discussing?
    Calvino Rabeni: we were discussing the statue art
    Calvino Rabeni: a sculpture garden
    Aphrodite Macbain: in Thailand?
    --BELL--


    Calvino Rabeni: I'm interested in the culture as shown in the art
    Calvino Rabeni: YEs
    Paradise Tennant: smiles at aphrodite :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: is this it?
    stevenaia Michinaga: Secret Buddha Garden This beautiful garden was made by a 76 year-old Ko Samui fruit farmer in 1976. It is surrounded by lush jungle, rocky hills and is adorned with sculptures depicting both humans, in various poses, as well as various deities. Since the garden is the highest point on the island, there are also some awesome views to be had. Organized tours to the garden last for about 2 hours.
    Calvino Rabeni: And the sculpture garden apparently was created for personal use - not for public display
    Aphrodite Macbain: Have you seen the terra cotta Chinese army Cal
    Aphrodite Macbain: every one is an individual- and there are hundreds
    Calvino Rabeni: Thanks Steve - that sounds like it
    Calvino Rabeni: I've not seen the army
    Aphrodite Macbain: How did you find this place Cal?
    Aphrodite Macbain: Is it well known?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, its on the tourism maps
    stevenaia Michinaga: Aph, read "Secret"
    Aphrodite Macbain: Were all the sculptures so beautiful and serene?
    Aphrodite Macbain: Secret?
    Calvino Rabeni: Some are funloving
    stevenaia Michinaga: the name of the garden
    Calvino Rabeni: some are fanciful animals
    Aphrodite Macbain: oh!!
    stevenaia Michinaga: "Secret Buddha Garden"
    Aphrodite Macbain: I will have to look up the reference to find out more. Thanks Steve
    stevenaia Michinaga: http://wikitravel.org/en/Koh_Samui
    Aphrodite Macbain: It doesn't look typically Thai
    Calvino Rabeni: http://picasaweb.google.com/WyldMedia/Thailand1#5432393934757088642
    Calvino Rabeni: That might look more typical
    Aphrodite Macbain: but then I don't know too much about it
    Aphrodite Macbain: Yesyes- those pointed heads are a giveaway
    Aphrodite Macbain: and the long earlobes
    Aphrodite Macbain: It IS a magic garden
    Aphrodite Macbain: There is such a variety of Buddhist art
    Aphrodite Macbain: each style sort of reflects the culture it is located in
    Calvino Rabeni: It feels like theres way more sculptural art for each real human there, than in other places, or in western countries
    Aphrodite Macbain: Interesting observation
    Calvino Rabeni: Like art is more embodied
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: how would you say that is reflected in the culture, in the way people live, how they interact, and stuff?
    Aphrodite Macbain: Perhaps that is the primary means of visual expression.
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm not sure if it is true but my impression is forms and statues a commonplace
    Paradise Tennant: it is what they relate to :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Im thinking it is a cultural expression
    Aphrodite Macbain: It is intersting that the Greeks andRomans also made amazing 3D art
    Aphrodite Macbain: Art that is lasting, edduring
    Aphrodite Macbain: enduring
    Aphrodite Macbain: Some paintings, come ceramics, tapestries, bronzes
    Aphrodite Macbain: but mostly stone figurs
    Calvino Rabeni: of certain values, I can't prove this, but that the western statues have to have a function of being commemorative oor divine or archetypal or something
    Aphrodite Macbain: whereas the eastern...?
    Calvino Rabeni: in contrast to these more individualist statues
    stevenaia Michinaga: must be going, thanks Cal, gtsy all
    Aphrodite Macbain: what do you think THEIR purpose was?
    Calvino Rabeni: that is, a feeling of types vs. individuals
    Paradise Tennant: take care stevenaia :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bye
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bye! steve.
    Calvino Rabeni: Fly well, Steve :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: seems like, taking more care, being more specific
    Calvino Rabeni: yes something like that
    Calvino Rabeni: more manifest, less idealistic
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: less platonic ideals kind of
    Calvino Rabeni: Right
    Aphrodite Macbain: There were a lot of portraits made by Roman sculptors - very realistic ones. Depends on the purpose
    Aphrodite Macbain: There have always been commemoerative sculptures, iconic sculptures, purely creative sculptures
    --BELL--


    Calvino Rabeni: Hmmm, its something in between, maybe not so much portraiture, but fanciful or imagined beings given individuality
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hmmm
    Calvino Rabeni: Something in the mind of heart of the artist, as beauty is in the (capacity for) vision of the beholder
    Aphrodite Macbain: Who is this amazing figure repreesented here?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I think of Egyptian styles of representing the body, stylized ... whereas the Greek sculptures were more realistic, although they also had a certain style, it was less so
    Paradise Tennant: smiles think I will scoot .. a bit sleepy here ..thank you for the company and the conversations .. namaste :) aph mitzi cal :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Good night Paradise dream well :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: Yes. ach culture brought their own stylwe- influenced by other cultures. During the Greek and Roman times gyptian sculpture became more 3 dimensional
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: bye gorgeous
    Paradise Tennant: will try too .. :) using your dream suggestion box idea before I fall asleep will let you know how it works :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: Beautiful red dress Paradise
    Paradise Tennant: thanks mitzi .. aph :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bye
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bye!
    Aphrodite Macbain: I should go too after interrupting so rudely. Please tell me what this image is before I go
    Calvino Rabeni smiles
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: yes, let's sit closer, aphrodite, do you want to move over near me?
    Calvino Rabeni: about the dream suggestion box being remembered
    Aphrodite Macbain: The image is from the dream suggestion box/...?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I must have missed that ... what's the dream suggestion box all about?
    Aphrodite Macbain scratches her head
    Calvino Rabeni: Aphro, the image is a photo of a statue of an indigenous forest deweller in thailand
    Aphrodite Macbain: amazing
    Aphrodite Macbain: wonder what he's wearing on his head
    Aphrodite Macbain: Must be his hair
    Calvino Rabeni: I think hair
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ha!
    Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
    Aphrodite Macbain: The most powerful sculpture thatI have seen from that part of the world are the dancing figures in Ankor Wat in Cambodia. Rival any Greek freize
    Aphrodite Macbain: they really DANCE
    Aphrodite Macbain: so joyfully
    Calvino Rabeni: That's intriguing, thanks for the mention
    Aphrodite Macbain: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/the-12thcentury-facebook-of-angkor-wat-2071296.html?action=Gallery
    Aphrodite Macbain: OK gotta go. Nite nite Mitzi, Calvino
    Calvino Rabeni: Good night Aphrodite :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: It's nice to be back among the virtually living
    Calvino Rabeni: heheh yes
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: it was nice to see you, take care Aprhodite
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: oh hi!
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: So what else?
    Calvino Rabeni: Cream puff or steak?
    --BELL--


    Mitzi Mimistrobell: how about raspberries?
    Calvino Rabeni: you mean like the derisive sound made by the tongue?
    Calvino Rabeni: Or the generic haute cuisine dressing called "raspberry vinigarette"
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: the food kind of raspberry!
    Calvino Rabeni: I wonder, if there's anyone who does ethnographic studies of contemporary religious movements, that I (and you) might find creditable
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm not so much interested in it in terms of content or metaphysics
    --BELL--


    Calvino Rabeni: As in the tacit cultural notions of identity and intelligence or agency
    Calvino Rabeni: As a narrative framework I suppose
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: well, it says "a person's feature is his self-0image, the picture he has of himself ... " but then goes on to say " since it is a self-image it seems to normal and natural to view oneself as one does "" so in that way I suppose he is trying to say something similar to what I think the Gurdjieffian view is ... it's just not well expressed. It's your self-image, but you are unaware of it. Sigh.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: oops wrong window!
    Calvino Rabeni: How would you characterize, the main conceptual difficulty there?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: OK, we are talking about the Gurdjieffian concept of "Chief Feature"
    Calvino Rabeni: And maybe about the more general field it comes from, including cultural conceptions of mind and agency ?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: THis is a very hard topic to discuss and I'm not very expert on it.
    Calvino Rabeni: I agree with the first part "it's hard"
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I had a very negative reaction to that website you sent. It seemed derivative and shallow to me, but I shouldn't judge so quickly.
    Calvino Rabeni: I agree with that
    Calvino Rabeni: all three parts of it :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: So let's not waste our time on that.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: IT seems that the Enneagram personality system is an attempt to systematize "Chief Feature" in a simplistic way that has become unbelievably popular.
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I find that the ways people use and most often if not always MIS use it reveals a lot about how people think about others, and the deficiencies in their way of modeling the inner world of another.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I really can't stand it actually, anymore.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: We've discussed this before I think, Calvino, haven't we?
    Calvino Rabeni: I hear that, Mitzi
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Claudio Naranjo wrote a very interesting book on the Enneagram personality system called "Character and Neurosis" that I found very helpful to me in this regard.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Although it still posits a fundamentalistic acceptance of the Enneagram system, what I liked about it was what he said about the formation of the pattern. Basically ...
    --BELL--


    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... at a young age, like one or two, we find the contradictions of reality traumatically intolerable and at that point adopt a defense mechanism to protect ourselves and arm ourselves to get through life.
    Calvino Rabeni: I guess the question to me is to see that as a mythology, a kind of action logic that is partly true and partly a distortion
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... so this defense mechanism is always a double edged sword and has its elevated and degraded manifestations. But, life is intolerable and therefore we all must have these defenses. So we are blameless. We can struggle with them, but cannot ovecome them. So, as the I Ching says, "No blame."
    Calvino Rabeni: "No Blame" we can take as a bracketing perspective
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: What's true in my observation is that we may (or might not) have a habitual, preferred approach to coping with this intolerable reality, but we can use other neuroses as well when called for.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I might have a lot of Enneagram "Four" going on, but I'm also familiar with Five, Six, One, Two and all the rest, plus a plethora of other tools to wrangle reality with.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes, a bracketing perspective. For ,myself, I helt a great relief at that.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: J.G. Bennett, someone I admire greatly, said in his autobiography that he was never able to overcome certain strong tendencies he had, such as to act too quickly when he was excited about something. He knew it was a fatal flaw, he struggled with it, and could not overcome it.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Nevertheless he had a great life and did amazing things that help others. So if he couldn't overcome his, and I can't overcome mine, who cares? If we struggle sincerely we will learn a lot and move things forward. So, a nice relief. Self acceptance.
    Calvino Rabeni: The language in the Naranjo construct shows I think a "freudian" paradigm on the world and human nature.. and though it's still part of the "water" we fish swim in, it's getting dated
    Calvino Rabeni: I've been tagging lately as "steampunk"
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Well, I'm ready for a new paradigm to swim about in ... can you tell me what you are seeing as a new way to view such things? (chief feature, neurosis, etc.)?
    Calvino Rabeni: And now its competing with the emerging "information" paradigm
    Calvino Rabeni: which now that it's emerged, is already itself feeling dated
    Calvino Rabeni: I don't have a good tag for it yet ... I'm thinking maybe "battlefield"
    Calvino Rabeni: Anyway, Bennet is interesting ... I'm curious about his various phases and how in retrospect he seemed to be chasing various "shiny objects"
    Calvino Rabeni: and perhaps following a path that others have taken, returning to some kind of faith based perspective in later life
    Calvino Rabeni: which the young may see as a failing of courage or nerve that comes with age
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Welcome, Pia, long time no see. How are you?
    Calvino Rabeni: and the old might see as maturity or wisdom, who knows?
    Calvino Rabeni: Pila :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Good to see you
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Aren't we all chasing "shiny objects"?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, Generically perhaps, we learn and proceed as best we can with current knowledge.
    Pila Mulligan: greetings -- a 2+ hour session?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yup!
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: More or less ... a mellow start then it shifted gears
    Pila Mulligan: I'm trying a new mobile internet device
    Calvino Rabeni: Now it seems a number of ideas are in the air
    --BELL--


    Pila Mulligan: well, ideas certainly can do that
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: which idea is currently moving in your sails, Calvino?
    Calvino Rabeni: All of them :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I'd be glad to pick it up using any of the handles we had
    Calvino Rabeni: or add to it
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: "handles" ... what a good way to express it.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Remember CB radio and "handles"? That was your CB name
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... an early avatar like alternate
    Calvino Rabeni: Any word a handle to a concept which is a handle to a perspective or world view in some possible world I supose
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: handy aren't they?!?
    Calvino Rabeni: Rather :)
    Pila Mulligan: and also in amature radio -- I was once WN4ANY
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: well we were talking earlier about "chief feature", a gurdjieffian idea ... I remember a story from some book ...
    Calvino Rabeni: I've been curious about the numbers 10-4 and who was "Roger"
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... Gurdjieff says of one student "and his chief feature is that he always argues" and the student in question indignantly replied, "But I never argue!"
    Pila Mulligan: I bet wiki can tell
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... at which utterance the entire room burst into laughter.
    Pila Mulligan: self-proving error
    Pila Mulligan: reminds me of a story from WWII
    Calvino Rabeni: There must be some recursion involved in those structures
    Calvino Rabeni: Self reference, like, the concept of "spiritual bypass" promises either escape from the structure, or it is itself a spiritual bypass
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: "???Oh wad some power the giftie gie us To see oursel's as others see us! It wad frae monie a blunder free us, And foolish notion ... " Robert Burns
    Calvino Rabeni smiles
    Calvino Rabeni: What's that WWII story Pila?
    Pila Mulligan: do oyu remember Jackie Robinson?
    Calvino Rabeni: Not personally
    Pila Mulligan: he was the first black major league baseball player
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: go on ...
    Pila Mulligan: back in the 50's
    Calvino Rabeni: but he was quite the topic of chat back during that time
    Pila Mulligan: in WWII he was a Lieutenant, having been a start athlete at UCLA
    Pila Mulligan: he was training with a black tank battalion in Louisiana
    Pila Mulligan: and riding from the base to the town on a bus he sat next to the light skinned wife of a fellow black officer
    Pila Mulligan: the driver told him to go to the back of the bus
    Pila Mulligan: Robinson said he stay wehre he was
    Pila Mulligan: so the bus driver stops and calls the MPs (military police)
    Pila Mulligan: eventually an MP arrested him and he was court martialed for disorderly conduct
    Pila Mulligan: at the trial Robinson said the white MP had used a racial epithet and he naturally became angry
    Pila Mulligan: the MP denied having used any bad language, but in cross exampination he was aksed 'what did Lt Robinson say as you arrested him"
    Pila Mulligan: and the MP testified, 'He said 'don't you ever call me ni---r again1'"
    --BELL--


    Pila Mulligan: another instance of self-proving error :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Baseball philosophers included Yogi Berra, known for creating a large number of quotable koans.
    Calvino Rabeni: Right
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Actually, Yogi berra
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: yogi berra's quotes are all wonderful, folksy and completely understandable!
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: IMHO
    Pila Mulligan: didn't he originate the 'fat lady sings' saying
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I don't know!
    Calvino Rabeni: IN the book we were talking about earlier, there's the concept of a "Spiritually Transmitted Disease" ... which I find hilarious as an example of that unconscious self-reference
    Calvino Rabeni: RIght I agree, they're wonderfully immediate :)
    Pila Mulligan: http://www.yogiberra.com/yogi-isms.html
    Pila Mulligan: itreresting term -- kind of begs for defintion of spirtually
    Calvino Rabeni cringes at the word "definition"
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Pila Mulligan: possible menaings then?
    Pila Mulligan: " It ain't over 'til it's over " -- that must have been what I was thinking of
    Calvino Rabeni: But remember, if one accepts the idea of a STD, it kind of takes the dignity out of the concept of Dark Night Of The Soul
    Pila Mulligan: you're exceeding my literary capacity there Cal :)
    Calvino Rabeni: sry!
    Pila Mulligan: my problem :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I like the Yogi Berra quote on that page: "The future ain't what it used to be" ...!
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: my father used to advocate " You can observe a lot by watching".
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm imagining it said in a Rodney Dangerfield style
    Pila Mulligan: yep
    Pila Mulligan: what do you think fits the term 'spiritual' as descriptive elements?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Here's a link to that "Spiritually Transmitted Diseases" post ... very good, actually, I think: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mariana-caplan-phd/spiritual-living-10-spiri_b_609248.html
    Pila Mulligan: thanks Mitzi
    Calvino Rabeni: The original is http://www.amazon.com/Eyes-Wide-Open-Cultivating-Discernment/dp/1591797322/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1291609696&sr=8-4
    Pila Mulligan: ahh, I think I've heard the title
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Has some elements in common with Trungpa's "Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism", written way back in 1973.
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, maybe its part of the Boulder mystique too
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ...honored "chiefly in the breach" (as Shakespeare said)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... speaking of good quotables ... lots of them tonight ...
    Calvino Rabeni: More out there on the edge of what we're talking about, is the notion of distributed consciousness and intersubjectivity
    Calvino Rabeni: BUT sorry for the big words :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I won't reference the web site because we were critical of it
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: but the interesting thing to me is the notion of there being a collective or aggregate mind coalescing as an "entity"
    Calvino Rabeni: which in turn is accessed by a variety of people who together have a collaborative relationship
    Calvino Rabeni: thus constituting another aggregate entity
    Pila Mulligan: all one! all one!
    Calvino Rabeni: It makes intelligence a kind of N to N relationship
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... in systems theory, aren't there accepted ways to define what constitutes something that can be defined as an entity? (as opposed to a simple aggregation)
    --BELL--


    Calvino Rabeni: Right well it seems to be culturally chafing at the harness of monotheism
    Pila Mulligan: "discernment that is powerful enough to pierce through confusion on every level of our experience, explains Mariana Caplan"
    Calvino Rabeni: (Likes Pilas reference to the soap maker) :)
    Calvino Rabeni: "You can wash ANYTHING with this soap"
    Pila Mulligan: great stuff if you can read small type :)
    Pila Mulligan: you know, Dr. Bronner was blind ...
    Pila Mulligan: he told his associates what to put on the label
    Calvino Rabeni: Like the cut-anything knife
    Pila Mulligan: they had to squeeze to get it all
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Ah, the memory of the aroma of Dr. Bronner's peppermint soap takes me right back to the early 70s.
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Well I don't know that Caplan wrote any kind of corrective into her book ... (I'm only half way through)
    Calvino Rabeni: I remember the almond scent the most
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: The almond is classic as well
    Pila Mulligan: does Caplan ever attempt to define spirituality?
    Calvino Rabeni: Hmm I don't know ... I was told she does better at it than Masters in his book "Spiritual Bypassing"
    Pila Mulligan: words distinguish things or ideas, so maybe spirituality can be approached by saying what it is distinct from
    Calvino Rabeni: But Pila, how about you, what's your take on it?
    Pila Mulligan: well, maybe it is distinct from materiality ... I'm not reall sure :)
    Pila Mulligan: it implies spirit
    Calvino Rabeni: Because frankly to me it is a void term except when seen as a kind of speech act
    Pila Mulligan: spirit implies something distinct from mebodiment
    Pila Mulligan: yes, I agree
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: That could be an interesting endeavor ... to attempt to define "spirituality"
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I agree that it screams with vagueness
    Pila Mulligan: in the art of speech it has a farily exalted persona
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Exalted but diffuse ... can apply to so many things
    Pila Mulligan: '... she is a very spiritual person' can mean many many things, however
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: So I'd say it has a semantic role in its social context, but no "referent"
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Good framing, Calvino. As you know, I often see word usage in a similar way ...
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: We can just look it up in a dictionary and that would serve as the definition right there.
    Pila Mulligan: it also confronts the social gap between people who believe they end at death and those who think they continue somehow thereafter
    Pila Mulligan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirituality
    Calvino Rabeni: mmmhmmm
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I don't know that what you said would necessarily be a criterion. I myself am dubious about an afterlife, yet I pursue many goals considered to be in the category of "spiritual."
    Pila Mulligan: "Spirituality can refer to an ultimate or immaterial reality;[1] an inner path enabling a person to discover the essence of their being; or the ???deepest values and meanings by which people live.???["
    Pila Mulligan: yes,Mitzi, it owuld not suffice as a general definition, but in social setting those two camps tend to revolve about their separate views in discussing spiritual stuff
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: So, nothing about afterlife in that definition. So that's interesting - your definition reveals that the whole afterlife aspect is something that YOU consider definitional about spirituality.
    Pila Mulligan: yes, and I also see it often in discussions as a schism
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: And we've learned that it may or may not mean that to others.
    Pila Mulligan: so Iwas referring more to the schism than my views :)
    Calvino Rabeni: @mitzi, the question that occurs to me is, how to legitimize your values (which I assume are common to a large number of people) without subscribing to the metaphysics
    Pila Mulligan: Pila Mulligan: it also confronts the social gap between people who believe they end at death and those who think they continue somehow thereafter
    Pila Mulligan: interesting how that led to your assumption, Mitzi :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I didn't read that into Pila's statement
    Calvino Rabeni: but saw it as a bracketed statement
    Pila Mulligan: it is illustrative of the weight of the social gap or schism
    Calvino Rabeni: sometimes the communication is crisper when it is clear "who speaks"
    --BELL--


    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Calvino, I didn't grok your statement about legitimizing values without subscribing to metaphysics ... can you re-state?
    Calvino Rabeni: but we rely on it being tacit most of the time
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, ...
    Calvino Rabeni: You said -- I myself am dubious about an afterlife, yet I pursue many goals considered to be in the category of "spiritual."
    Calvino Rabeni: Which brought to mind that there are always people whose esoteric sensibilities don't find a home within the metaphysical frameworks that are available
    Pila Mulligan: it is probably quite simple to legitimize values that exclude the afterlife issue by subscribing to a complex yet purely physical system of metaphysics
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: And I really don't care one way or the other whether people label me in some particular way or not. I accept that this could happen, but it's of little importance to me how other's label me.
    Calvino Rabeni: And I see you as having an amalgam of ideas that would be classified as scientific on the one hand or "spiritual" on the other
    Calvino Rabeni: and yet, you live in one world
    Calvino Rabeni: and there's no unifying framework to think about it
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I do? How do you know that?!? (haughtily)
    Calvino Rabeni: Humph Mitzi :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: You may see a contradiction there but I do not.
    Calvino Rabeni: I might not pick up that gauntlet Mitzi ")
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: You are truly wise.
    Calvino Rabeni: But, we could talk about someone else
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: We could talk about Pia!
    Pila Mulligan: again, metapysics can encompass both accepted modern science and traditional ideas
    Calvino Rabeni: Stuart Kaufmann, for example
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Pila! apologies.
    Calvino Rabeni: Because he's thinking along the same lines
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes, metaphysics is a big container for such concepts and can hold science, spirituality, and lots else within it's frame.
    Calvino Rabeni: And is not here to defend himself :)
    Pila Mulligan: 'you can call me whatever you like, just don't call me late for dinner'
    Calvino Rabeni: um
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: anyone ready to leap in?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Just googled Stuart Kaufmann, yes, indeed, someone I would like!
    Pila Mulligan: well, maybe we can consider some leaping points
    Calvino Rabeni: I myself am dubious about an afterlife, yet I pursue many goals considered to be in the category of "spiritual."
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Pila - "you are late for dinner." Ha!
    Calvino Rabeni: Your quote from earlier may characterize Kaufmann too
    Calvino Rabeni: http://www.amazon.com/Reinventing-Sacred-Science-Reason-Religion/dp/B002CMLQZM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1291615085&sr=8-1
    Calvino Rabeni: Reinventing the Sacred is the title
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm afraid I found it unsatisfying
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Nice ... I like it.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: You read it, ... why unsatisfying?
    Calvino Rabeni: but it does show a cultural thought process
    Calvino Rabeni: I don't know really ... it seemed a little like Intelligent Design in some sense
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: I think thoughts directly influence evolution
    Pila Mulligan: human mundane thoughts
    Calvino Rabeni: Which is, you make a big complicated pile, and then sort of wave hands and imply that something (like God) might reside in there somewhere
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Rupert Sheldrake's morphic fields are a paradigm that bridges some of these gaps.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Would such a thing really meet the common definition of "God" then?
    Calvino Rabeni: I can't help think Sheldrake's ideas are basically deism disguised in a material matrix
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm not aware of a common definition of God
    Calvino Rabeni ducks
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I don' think so ... because the needs of the living beings carve them out ... I think (disclaimer: no expert on Sheldrake, although I am a big fan)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: such a thought would horrify an Intelligent Design adherent I believe
    --BELL--


    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Self created invisible forms - wretched earthly beings manifesting their own destiny (not imposed from above). That's the distinction.
    Calvino Rabeni: Human mundane thoughts influence evolution ... can you say more, Pila? My first response was not disagreement
    Pila Mulligan: Thou Art God -- Valentine Michael Smith
    Calvino Rabeni: What's going on with this morphic field we're sitting in, Mitzi?
    Pila Mulligan: well, thi example is extreme and sure to draw the idea some flack, but suppose a lot of people started admiring tall basketball players,a nd that led to people generally gowing taller?
    Pila Mulligan: a kind of 100th monkey consensus that says let's get taller
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: We are sitting in a little morphic field of the 3 of us which responds to our needs and in turn exists on its own. When another living one joins us, they attune to our field and we have a group field. Like a flock of birds turning seamlessly together ...
    Pila Mulligan: Mitzi, suppose the field includes the subconscious presence of those close to each of us?
    Calvino Rabeni: I see it happening, potentially, Pila, but perhaps with the intermediation of material processes, ... like the dairy industry
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... he muses that perhaps our "thoughts" are not in our brain but in the field and that the brain is an organ exquisitely attuned to morphic fields.
    Pila Mulligan: yes, there must be many factors at work Cal
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes, Pila, I see it like that ...
    Pila Mulligan: so collective ideas take on greater weight
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: .... or, try this: all ideas are in fact collective ... we are under the illusion that they are somehow "our own" ideas.
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: sounds cool to me
    Calvino Rabeni: My own metaphics would see that morphic field as an emergent property, Mitzi -but it is interesting to consider where exactly the "flock" is if it consists of ZERO birds
    Calvino Rabeni: Agree Mitzi
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: maybe it's just waiting for the next flock
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Sheldrake uses morphic fields to explain phenomena relating to birds, in fact.
    Calvino Rabeni: That's a handle on intersubjectivity, as is my comment on N to N relationships defining intelligence
    Pila Mulligan: don't forget sex, getting laid accounts for a substantial part of the jaw movement in most species
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Such as ... a group of birds in England learned to remove the foil tops off milk bottles sitting on porches pre-WWII.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: .... During the war, no foil tops (metal needed for the war effort). Ten years later, metal tops are back. Generations of birds who had never seen this behavior before immediately began removing the foil tops as before (no generational learning possible, too much time between). Not sure I got that story right, but something like that.
    Pila Mulligan: eating and sex, big factors
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Birds in other areas, like in Holland, never did this.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: He does a lot of experiments with people doing puzzles in the papers and sending in their times to him, how long it took them to solve. He gathers this data. It always shows that the more people have solved the puzzle, the quicker subsequent individuals solve it. The effect is statistically significant and has been repeated many times.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: All this research points to some type of "morphic fields" that beings are tuning in to to do these tasks. The deeper the grooves of the field, the easier and quicker the process goes.
    Pila Mulligan: we are under the illusion that we somehow have "our own" ideas
    Calvino Rabeni: @pila and the sex-and-jaw idea - Yes, there's something about that way of thinking, however, a kind of monocausalitis ... attributing a certain percentage of some phenomenon to a single other factor as "cause" when in fact in biology things happen with multiple overlapping interacting causes
    Calvino Rabeni: Right, and that things have singular causes
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Pila, glad you are enjoying that idea ... provocative, isn't it?
    Calvino Rabeni: the morphic field metaphor is in my opinion another way of trying to conceptualize multiple causality
    Pila Mulligan: yep, but simple needs such as food and sex account for a great deal of the contention in social encounters
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Cal, you know I agree with you about monocausalitis ...
    Calvino Rabeni wipes sweat from forehead and exhales in relief
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Mitzi has more champagne ...
    Pila Mulligan: among the many factors at work in social activity, contention and cooperation can be very defining in terms of results
    Calvino Rabeni: How so, Pila?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Just because I enjoy an idea does not necessarily mean I am "mono-causalitizizing" it ...! (Mitzi sniffs)
    Calvino Rabeni: They seem mixed like yang and yin
    Pila Mulligan thinks that what people like and what they don't like are sufficeint as a foundation to understand dharma
    --BELL--


    Pila Mulligan: even in minute quantities, attraction and repulsion (i.e., moving closer to or farther from) are social dynamics that determine what happens
    Calvino Rabeni suspects dharma is a morphic field that gives form to people's likes and dislikes
    Pila Mulligan: yes, thanks, nice
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes Pila
    Calvino Rabeni: we're extremely sensitive to those pulsations
    Pila Mulligan: yep
    Pila Mulligan: many factors at work
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Listening, following ... I agree about the dynamics and the attractions, repulsions, carving out forms in daily life
    Pila Mulligan: jaw movement is a physical force in that dynamic flow (whether words are present or not)
    Pila Mulligan: add words and jaw movement becomes a big factor
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: also used for killing, biting, moving your kittens to a safer place ...
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Not just jaw, but breath and then, the articulated sounds of language and its precursors
    Pila Mulligan: many factors at work :) lol
    Calvino Rabeni: To speak is to present a rich, nuanced, vibrational portrait of one's being in a way that can be almost directly perceived by others of our species
    Calvino Rabeni: ...and other species too I believe
    Pila Mulligan: I rememebr my first impressions of George W Bush -- his constant uncontrolled sucking of air, his compulsive pelvic retraction and equally compulsive jaw dropping with a goofy grin
    Pila Mulligan: he was an extremely dysfucntional example as a leader
    Calvino Rabeni doesn't remember a THING about GWB's pelvic retractions
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: take a look at the Gore debates
    Pila Mulligan: Bush-Gore TV debates
    Pila Mulligan: my first impressions from there
    Pila Mulligan: hi Lucinda
    Calvino Rabeni: Hi CInda, welcome :) <3
    Pila Mulligan: pelvic retration in the posture sense, not keeping balance
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Hi Cinda, a pleasure to see you again.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: We've been on a roll tonight it seems ...!
    Lucinda Lavender: Nice to see you all:)
    Lucinda Lavender: what kind of roll?
    Calvino Rabeni: A rolling ball
    Lucinda Lavender: :)
    Pila Mulligan: nice to see you also :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes, Obama is a pleasure to look at and to listen to. Both Gore and Kerry were flawed candidates who were not pleasurable to watch and listen to. Bush of course was bad as well.
    Lucinda Lavender: well at least this area is visitable...this morning I guess it was not...
    Calvino Rabeni: When someone new comes in, they give the ball another kick!
    Pila Mulligan: I agree, Mitzi, Obama has an organic presence
    Calvino Rabeni: You like Obama's speaking style?
    Pila Mulligan: a diverse series of ideas, Lucnida
    Calvino Rabeni: OK, well I much disliked GWB, but don't like Obama as much as Clinton as a public communicator
    Calvino Rabeni: Obama could use a good voice coach
    Pila Mulligan: Clinton's speech was more dramatic
    Lucinda Lavender: ah...
    Pila Mulligan: Obama tends to lecture
    Lucinda Lavender: I sense something too about Obama when he speaks...
    Lucinda Lavender: like Clinton
    Lucinda Lavender: liked
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Well I just plain adore Obama and the sound of his voice soothes me no matter if he is scolding, lecturing or whatever.
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: he is more real then CLinton in my book too
    Lucinda Lavender: it is his intelligence that I find inspiring
    Lucinda Lavender: Mr Obama
    Pila Mulligan: albeit maybe not as adept a political strategist
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes, and nuance, perspective, and common sense, and all that.
    Lucinda Lavender: ah
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I heard him last when he was pardoning those turkeys. He was cracking up the whole time.
    Pila Mulligan: looks like the political gods of SL deleted Cal
    Lucinda Lavender: :)
    Lucinda Lavender: I won't stay too long...tired after my concert tonight but a little jazzed too
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Oh he crashed!
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: how was the concert?
    --BELL--


    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Was it a choir, vocal concert?
    Lucinda Lavender: good...Messiah. mostly great...
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Lucinda Lavender: choir with orchestra
    Pila Mulligan: nice
    Lucinda Lavender: very powerful
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: sounds like big energy!
    Lucinda Lavender: very:)
    Lucinda Lavender: Amen
    Pila Mulligan: spiritual :)
    Pila Mulligan: I had an interesting thought during a dream last night
    Lucinda Lavender: listening...
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: go on! Pila
    Lucinda Lavender: what was the thought?
    Pila Mulligan: they say a dream where events seem to continue for hours takes only a few actual minutes
    Lucinda Lavender: yes
    Pila Mulligan: from inside this dream I had like a window out to the wkaing world aorund me and it seemd to be going by very very slowly
    Lucinda Lavender: nodding
    Pila Mulligan: and the dream, realtively, seemed to be afaster zone
    Pila Mulligan: like it was scooting along above the slower waking world
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: that is really interesting to me, Pila ...
    Lucinda Lavender: like a kind of harmonic above...:)
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: I thought it was veyr interesting too
    Pila Mulligan: yes, a higher frquency hamronic
    Lucinda Lavender: makaes me wonder if we tune in to or create the harmonic from the present...
    Lucinda Lavender: this morning?
    Pila Mulligan: or maybe both waking and dreaming are reflections of something else
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: wow, indeed ... "tune into" ... a resonance from earlier topic Cinda ...
    Pila Mulligan: it is not quite 9:00 am here Lucinda
    Pila Mulligan: 9:00 pm -- sorry
    Lucinda Lavender: Today we had the new moon around 9 am approximately
    Pila Mulligan: welcome back Calvino :)
    Lucinda Lavender: and it can be a strong energy for dreaming...
    Lucinda Lavender: hi Cal
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Calvino Rabeni has a crash headache - avatars hate it when that happens
    Lucinda Lavender: at least I pay special attention on new moon dreams
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: He's back! We missed you .... a little ...
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... but not THAT much!
    Pila Mulligan: we've ventured on frmo Obama/Clinton to Lucinda's concert this evneing and dreaming
    Pila Mulligan: and now moon-dream effects
    Lucinda Lavender: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: new moon?
    Pila Mulligan: Hawaiians traditionally use the lunar calendar for many things -- fishing, agriculture, etc
    Lucinda Lavender: I think of dreaming on days of new or full moon as sheding light or fertilty( for the new Moon).
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Lucinda Lavender: seed planting time...for new...
    Pila Mulligan: some Hawaiian plantings are specifically done in a partciular lunar phase at night
    Lucinda Lavender: nodding
    Lucinda Lavender: so what would we plant tonight?
    Pila Mulligan: i don't know :)
    Pila Mulligan: papaya?
    Pila Mulligan: they are yummy
    Lucinda Lavender: ...yes
    Lucinda Lavender: hear we are in a dark time of year...
    Lucinda Lavender: and not quite the darkest...
    Pila Mulligan: close to it though
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: but almost ...
    Lucinda Lavender: yes...I would plant a seed of light for everyone to hold within...
    Pila Mulligan: thanks :)
    --BELL--


    Pila Mulligan: ... and your offerings sounds a bit like the fruit of an uplifting concert
    Lucinda Lavender: yes...
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: planting papayas in the new moon ... that's an alternate reality right there ... for me anyway
    Lucinda Lavender: maybe it could be about understanding darkness...
    Pila Mulligan: one of the ideas from the earlier discussion was how many factors are at work moment to moment
    Lucinda Lavender: many factors I imagine
    Pila Mulligan: and how we are under the illusion that we somehow have "our own" ideas wihtin that jumble
    Calvino Rabeni: Cinda is familiar with the "jumble" of the dream world which may come from many places at once
    Calvino Rabeni: A voice not of the separate individual
    Pila Mulligan: yep, an illuminating example :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Definitely not the egoic personality
    Lucinda Lavender: yes, have been listening to dreams of my singing community...
    Lucinda Lavender: for what they may have in common
    Pila Mulligan: what have you seen?
    Lucinda Lavender: we seem to be hearing from our deseased conductor..
    Pila Mulligan: not surprising to me :)
    Lucinda Lavender: he is calling in, showing up, saying he is fine.
    Lucinda Lavender: and then the call gets dropped...
    Pila Mulligan: his release from embodiment must have been profondly influential
    Lucinda Lavender: yes
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: wow!
    Lucinda Lavender: so amazing to have practices so many songs about death with him...
    Lucinda Lavender: and now he is gone...
    Lucinda Lavender: and we are still singing...with him in mind at moments
    Pila Mulligan: ) sweet
    Lucinda Lavender: what an opportunity
    Calvino Rabeni: The part of him that is in you, is not gone
    Lucinda Lavender: right...cal...very big feeling...
    Lucinda Lavender: of significance
    Pila Mulligan: what is our essence if not our expereince
    Lucinda Lavender: that feeling that there are no mistakes...
    Lucinda Lavender: tho mistakes are how I learn
    Lucinda Lavender: I am first to admit that
    Lucinda Lavender: I just feel I have been in training
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I find that interesting, Cinda, what you just said. About "the feeling that there are no mistakes ... but mistakes are how we learn."
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Maybe the word mistake is being used with a different meaning in those two usages ...
    Lucinda Lavender: yeah sounds confused maybe...
    Lucinda Lavender: yes
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: No, not at all. It's like a poem, playing on the subtle differences in connotation of the word used in two ways, but the poetry of it being the same sound.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Like ... maybe: I am a good person and cannot avoid making mistakes, I am redeemed" for "there are no mistakes" ...
    Lucinda Lavender: perhaps in practicing singing you go places and decide you do not want to go there again...
    Pila Mulligan: reminds me of a Sufi freind's redntionof the Zikr La ilaha ilallah - "There is no god but Allah" -- he began like Nietzsche saying 'God is Dead, there is no God' and ended like an ecstatic gasping 'but God!'
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: and "I feel the impact of a choice I made, and see now that, next time something similar happens, I could do it this other way." ... So, that's my interpretation ... what do you think?
    --BELL--


    Pila Mulligan: there is no mistake, but I'll do better :)
    Lucinda Lavender: pathways maybe feel like mistakes but arn't?
    Calvino Rabeni: Wasn't it Yogi Berra saying something like - well I hope I make the right mistakes?
    Lucinda Lavender: :) sounds good...
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: love it! The right mistakes.
    Lucinda Lavender: my first thought was of juicy ones...
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: THe idea of "mistake" implies we can do otherwise. That's both hopeful and could be taken as applying a lot of pressure to be better, faster (stressful).
    Calvino Rabeni: And the Tai Chi (or is it taoist) tradition has the adage "Invest in Loss"
    Lucinda Lavender: the ripe ones... almost lost
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: juicy ... ripe ... mistakes ... like papayas flourisihing in the Hawaiian moonlight ... bursting with juicy lessons for life.
    Lucinda Lavender: :) and on that note...I must get horizontal...:) sleep well all.
    Pila Mulligan: sweet dreams Lucinda
    Lucinda Lavender: thank you...
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: hi star
    Pila Mulligan: long time no see :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Hi Stargate, you are most interesting to look at!
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Are you joyful?
    Stargate Tone: oh wow; ty MItzi
    Calvino Rabeni: <333 Stargate
    Stargate Tone: *yesssssss*
    Stargate Tone: cuz Cal told me who's here now :)************
    Calvino Rabeni: Happy to see you :)
    Stargate Tone: ***<3<3<3***
    Pila Mulligan: looks like the holiday spirit has you :)
    Stargate Tone: ah; might it came to me by you all here :)***
    Stargate Tone: well...as we dont have such here in Finnland...meaning the way it's in USA, so I have only little knowledge of it, but feel it be much like x-mas ...
    Pila Mulligan: what do the Finns do for Christmas?
    Stargate Tone: but today it is the day of Finnland...is it said that 'nation day'...?
    Pila Mulligan: nice
    Stargate Tone: well; dipends so much of the family
    Stargate Tone: but base to all is to give presents to friends, but to gather together only as family....
    Stargate Tone: but...well...as my door has been open always also on x-mas to friends too, and once I even got such visitor who I didn't even know
    Pila Mulligan: in Holland they have Sinterklaas
    Stargate Tone: but I was happy for that...as he knew me...
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: The 6th of December is St. Nicholas's Saint Name Day, right? Is that why you have a celebration in Finland today?
    Stargate Tone: yes; and that's based on story of man who came to Holland to bring presents to people
    Stargate Tone: ah no
    Stargate Tone: for us to turn to be independent on this date
    Stargate Tone: 1917
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: right, that's what you said ...
    --BELL--


    Pila Mulligan: website: "Essentials on Christmas Eve in Finland are Christmas mass, and a visit to a Finnish sauna, of course." :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Its so basic and powerful a story ... giving in the time of cold and darkness. Or if one is receiving, it's alchemical.
    Stargate Tone: that we celebrate with much speeches in gatherings and publick and there's this way that we lit two candels on them widows at 18:00 hour...why; to 'give sign of light' to them neighbours and tresppassers...
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, giving light to the strange and displaced ones
    Stargate Tone: *yes*
    Stargate Tone: well...
    Stargate Tone: would U like to share something special from the history of Finnland ?
    Pila Mulligan: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: You have a story to share? Yes
    Pila Mulligan rememebrs earlier Lucinda referred to planting a seed of light for everyone to hold within
    Stargate Tone: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XojVmivqDrA
    Stargate Tone: this song truly was one 'secret weapon' for finnish people to 'carry on'....
    Pila Mulligan: it seems i do not have enough bandwidth to do both SL and You Tube :|
    Pila Mulligan: regretfully
    Stargate Tone: ah ok
    Pila Mulligan: I'll save it though star, thanks
    Stargate Tone: **
    Stargate Tone: it's the most urgent words ;
    Stargate Tone: oh rise you Finnland; you won the slavery and showed that to the world...; it'll be the day when you light shall shine all ower the world
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I see it ... it feels very nostalgic, to think of a time when music could stir the soul of an entire nation
    Stargate Tone: _/!\_
    Calvino Rabeni: I both miss it ... and wonder if I'd fear to live in such a world :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Don't know :)
    Stargate Tone: well...hard nature; tough nation...yet...
    Stargate Tone: as we have the saying that nothing grows here...but the hatered
    Calvino Rabeni smiles at Mitzi, asleep but still sipping champagne
    Stargate Tone: (also that only crazy ppl have moved to live in this kind of cold country with so hard soil)
    Stargate Tone: lol
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: (yes, that's really decadent)
    Pila Mulligan: well, it has been very nice visting with you Star, Mitzi and Cal (and Lucinda) -- now I need to get on to the things of the RL evening here -- happy holidays :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm not sure the Finnish spirit ... only see the side through the people I've met
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: happy to you too, pila. Nice to have a more substantive engagement with you tonight. A pleasure.
    Calvino Rabeni: Good seeing you Pila
    Stargate Tone: well...I think that same spirit is so strongly within you too Cal :)***
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes a pleasure as always
    Calvino Rabeni: Feels it ...
    Stargate Tone: was truly nice to meet Pila; have good time *
    Stargate Tone: Hello Zon :)*
    Calvino Rabeni: Zon Gone
    Stargate Tone: yes
    --BELL--


    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I feel left out ... also sleepy ...
    Stargate Tone: _/!\_
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: thanks, stargate
    Stargate Tone: well...we have a saying here in Finnland for them sielent moments,
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: yes?
    Stargate Tone: that 'angel passes by' :)***
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ah! That's lovely. I'll remember that ...
    Stargate Tone: ***<3<3<3***
    Stargate Tone: ...star watched the clock...
    Stargate Tone: it's special meeting been here now...am I right ?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I am drooping off ... I think I will depart ...
    Stargate Tone: then I wish you verry good night and sweet dreams :)***
    Stargate Tone: Cal already asleep ?
    Calvino Rabeni looks alert
    Calvino Rabeni: (gives the appearance of alert)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Goodnight Stargate, fun to see you bouncing around ... have a happy Finland day (I listened to the Sibelius music, very stirring).
    Stargate Tone: thank you
    Calvino Rabeni: Well then Star, shall we close the session :)
    Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_

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