2011.01.04 13:00 - "I AM NOT TYPING!!"

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Bruce Mowbray. The comments are by Bruce Mowbray.

    Bruce Mowbray: Hello, Riddle. Good to see you again.
    Riddle Sideways: Hey, you all by self?

    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, so far.
    Riddle Sideways: I home sick today

    Bruce Mowbray: Oh -- sorry to hear that. Hope it's not serious.
    Riddle Sideways: good to see you too
     Riddle Sideways: was going to Maxine's dream thing that I read about
    Riddle Sideways: Kira newsletter
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I think that group meets at this hour.
    Riddle Sideways: but nobody there
    Bruce Mowbray: Mmmmm. . .
    Bruce Mowbray: It's still early -- Maybe folks will show up there in a while -- It meets at the Cafe, right?
    Riddle Sideways: supposedly
    Riddle Sideways: ha, old cat is watching the screen
    Riddle Sideways: smelling my av
    Bruce Mowbray: I can see that Darren is nearby -- aka "Black Panther" -- Maybe he's going to that group.
    Bruce Mowbray: Ha!
    Bruce Mowbray: "Old cat" -- I love it.
    Riddle Sideways: not want to run out this stimulating chat
    Bruce Mowbray: Oh -- please continue on to the dream group if you wish.
    Bruce Mowbray: no problem.
    Riddle Sideways: only had 2 other people this morning
    Bruce Mowbray: I'm sort of mellowing out after a very difficult night  yesterday -- and the calm feels good.
    Bruce Mowbray: At this morning's session -- only 3 people?
    Bruce Mowbray: I would have been there but received a call from a buddy in Anchorage -- needed to talk - and we talked for two hours!
    Riddle Sideways: remember when LONG distance calls meant a big deal
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, and now it's done with SKYPE -- in real time, and folks think nothing of it -- cuz it's FREE!
    Riddle Sideways: well, my friend "???" just showed up
    Riddle Sideways: will go see who is there
    Bruce Mowbray: OK.  : Be well, Riddle.
    Riddle Sideways: sorry to leave you
    Bruce Mowbray: Hello, Cal.
    Calvino Rabeni: Hello Bruce !
    Bruce Mowbray: Riddle just left -- on his way to the Dream Circle.
    Bruce Mowbray: Hello, Darren.
    Calvino Rabeni: Good evening Darren
    Darren Islar: hey Cal, Bruce :)
    Wol Euler: hello everyone, happy new year
    Calvino Rabeni: The Pause is nearly upon us
    Bruce Mowbray: I was about to tell Cal that I've just printed out Robert Bly's "Seven Sources of Shame." [Chapter Four of this book:   http://www.shametojoy.net/breaking_the_shackles.pdf ]
    Darren Islar: good afternoon Cal :)


    Darren Islar: hi Wol, Riddle
    Bruce Mowbray: Hello, Wol and welcome back Riddle.
    Wol Euler: hello riddle
    Riddle Sideways: hi wol, call, darr

    No dream circle today

    Riddle Sideways: nobody at Kira
    Bruce Mowbray: Is no one dreaming these days?
    Riddle Sideways: I was dreaming. Thought might need a workshop
    Wol Euler: I thought it was paused for the holidays
    Riddle Sideways: need better dreams
    Wol Euler: :)
    Riddle Sideways: ah, that would explain it
    Bruce Mowbray: You're welcome to share your dream here, if you wish -- and we can adopt any format you choose for discussion.
    Riddle Sideways: nope they are sick dreams
    Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm. . . .
    Riddle Sideways: am in bed sick today
    Wol Euler: :( sorry to hear it
    Riddle Sideways: really sick dreams
    Bruce Mowbray: do you mean, "They are dreams that shame me"? I had one of those last night myself.
    Riddle Sideways listens
    Riddle Sideways: no, dreams of being sickly

    Shame and shaming

    Bruce Mowbray: "Shame" and "shaming" have been much on my mind -- ever since listening to the speech on vulnerability....
    Bruce Mowbray: Oh -- I see -- You mean physical illness.
    Wol Euler: ah, that TED talk?
    Riddle Sideways: I liked that TED talk
    Wol Euler: yes, that was great.
    Bruce Mowbray: yes, I will find the link -- brb.
    Riddle Sideways: kinda Zen and motorcycle maintenance story
    Bruce Mowbray: Here it is: http://www.ted.com/talks/brene_brown_on_vulnerability.html
    Riddle Sideways: she thinks so much she breaks down
    Calvino Rabeni: I want to observe, one possible appearance of shame is not a feeling, beliefs like -' This is boring,'  'This is pointless,' 'This would do no one any good to see.'
    Darren Islar: why isn't that a feeling?
    Riddle Sideways: ah, darren is ????
    Calvino Rabeni: Because it might not feel like something in particular, and it's maintained as an attitude or thought.  In other words, behaviors based on thoughts based on aversions to feelings based on beliefs based on feelings
    Darren Islar: hmmmmmm, I 'see' a feeling there, maybe not that specifically true
    Darren Islar: right
    Calvino Rabeni: somewhere under there could be the condition of "shame" which is "relational"
    Calvino Rabeni: we get so many layers built up
    Darren Islar: yes
    Darren Islar: now I get you
    Calvino Rabeni: and don't necessarily "see" the deeper ones
    Bruce Mowbray: and we can also be ashamed of being ashamed.
    Bruce Mowbray: more layers.
    Calvino Rabeni: :) that happens
    Calvino Rabeni: so unwinding the layers ...
    Riddle Sideways: not sure if there is 'rational' shame
    Calvino Rabeni: Reframing shame
    Calvino Rabeni: nothing wrong with it
    Calvino Rabeni: its indicative of being human and the natural desire to be connected with others
    Calvino Rabeni: which is a good thing
    Calvino Rabeni: and the unconscious is a source of wisdom
    Calvino Rabeni: not a scary place of Freudian repressed stuff
    Bruce Mowbray: the "framing" itself can be a way of shaming --
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes exactly
    Darren Islar looks at Cal, wondering about that
    Calvino Rabeni: the framing might be a blessing - might be a curse
    Calvino Rabeni: as you know, Bruce, from recent experience
    Bruce Mowbray: For example: In the early 1980's, AIDS was "framed" as a "Gay Disease" which caused even the president of the USA not to mention it for seven years. . . (perhaps out of shame).
    Calvino Rabeni: we sometimes notice successful ways of 'holding' the situation
    Calvino Rabeni: that open and unlock it
    Calvino Rabeni: and lead to a change
    Calvino Rabeni: a change of identification and of heart
    Wol Euler nods.
    Calvino Rabeni: with possibly real world consequences


    Wol Euler: happy new year, Yaku
    Bruce Mowbray: Hello, Yaku --- have a good dream circle.
    Darren Islar: hi Yaku......
    Darren Islar: I'm not typing!
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    Calvino Rabeni is wondering what Darren was wondering at 13:28
    Riddle Sideways: ummm, my viewer is going as sick as I am
    Darren Islar: ah yes
    Darren Islar: to see unconsciousness as part of wisdom
    Riddle Sideways: avs are folding in half
    Bruce Mowbray: "black panther looks at Cal, wondering about that"
    Wol Euler: clear cache, delete the preferences, log off, reboot - and pray :)
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    Darren Islar: :)
    Riddle Sideways: I go pray now
    Riddle Sideways: thanks and bye
    Darren Islar: I just don't know, I would never have thought of that, so wondering about it
    Bruce Mowbray: Bye, Riddle!
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye Riddle, part of me goes with you
    Bruce Mowbray: Riddle told me earlier that he'd called in sick from work today.
    Darren Islar: there sure is a lot of information in the unconsciousness
    Darren Islar: ah.....
    Darren Islar: maybe it is even more subtle than the subconscious
    Darren Islar: or unconscious, don't know
    Bruce Mowbray: I think some folks consider meditation "spooky" because stuff from the unconscious sometimes rises into consciousness during meditation.
    Bruce Mowbray: and they don't know where that stuff came from or what to do with it.
    Calvino Rabeni: some are scared of what they might find "inside"
    Darren Islar: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: so they live in a zone between inner and outer
    Bruce Mowbray: indeed.
    Calvino Rabeni: a band
    Darren Islar: and some with good reason
    Bruce Mowbray: Perhaps one of the most valuable things I've learned through mindfulness practice is how to "hold" whatever rises without judgment or emotional reaction . . .
    Bruce Mowbray: simply being with whatever rises. . . 
    Darren Islar: and seeing the patterns, the layers l was talking about
    Bruce Mowbray: yes. . . and letting the hardness of it dissipate . . .
    Darren Islar: to see your first reaction, the one after that, and so on
    Wol Euler: hello Mick, happy new year
    Darren Islar: right
    Darren Islar: hi Mick
    Bruce Mowbray wonders, Where's Mick?
    Darren Islar: hehehe
    Bruce Mowbray: Hey Cal, can you say more about the "space between the layers. . . " (not exactly the words you used before, but. . .  I will try to find them.)
    Wol Euler: erm, the autologger rezzed a listener for Mick, so he must have been here for a short time
    Calvino Rabeni: sry, short phone call, brb
    Wol Euler: sorry if you all followed my erroneous lead :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Cal said,  "so they live in a zone between inner and outer"
    Bruce Mowbray: I think you meant they live in a zone between the conscious and the unconscious, but I'm not sure...


    Bruce Mowbray: Hello, Arisia.
    Darren Islar: hi Ari
    Arisia Vita: Hi all
    Darren Islar: no one's land
    Darren Islar: II AM NOT TYPING!!!!!!
    Darren Islar: sorry :)
    Wol Euler: :)
    Darren Islar: .
    Wol Euler: I find typing a . is enough to stop it
    Bruce Mowbray was hoping to see a great Dutch novel when Darren finished "typing."
    Darren Islar: yes, use those . a lot, nowadays
    Darren Islar: yes, well I do write, but not during sessions :)
    Darren Islar: only express what I want to say
    Bruce Mowbray: Cal might still be on the phone --

    Layers of consciousness and dreams

    Calvino Rabeni: Earlier, I meant, people can function in a very "outer" way, identified with things in the world and not too much noticing their internals, or can be aware of subconscious depths, and behave in relation to that knowledge - or anything in between - what would a "thick" sense of self be ... incorporating awareness and behavior on more levels
    Arisia Vita: wb Cal
    Bruce Mowbray: Last night I had a dream that I'd lost my billfold (wallet) -- that thing that I keep money and credit cards in.
    Calvino Rabeni: Or a thin one would have less resources, less "scope" of aware ness and behavior
    Calvino Rabeni: Dreams trump ideas
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Bruce Mowbray . . . . (waits)
    Darren Islar smiles
    Calvino Rabeni: I, Bruce, went to the cafe to find, no money in my wallet and no credit cards either :)
    Bruce Mowbray: and the dream was powerful enough to wake me -- and I felt both afraid and ashamed for losing it.
    Wol Euler nods
    Calvino Rabeni nods
    Bruce Mowbray: What I did, of course, was to recognize my "condition" and start telling myself that it was "just a dream" --- but. . .
    Wol Euler: hello ari, sorry I didn't see you before
    Darren Islar: in homeopathy money (gold) is part of our feeling of security
    Calvino Rabeni: and I felt a little foolish standing at the front of the line saying "cancel that order, I'll have NOTHING, TO GO"
    Bruce Mowbray: It was surely saying something more -- about general anxieties and fears of adequacy, etc.
    Arisia Vita: no need to feel sorry
    Bruce Mowbray listens.
    Darren Islar: go on Bruce please
    Bruce Mowbray: Well, several points here. . .
    Bruce Mowbray: One is that the unconscious seemed to be delivering me information -  in the form of a dream about losing something. . . and that produced both shame and fear.
    Bruce Mowbray: so it seemed important to look at it carefully and see what was going on.
    Calvino Rabeni: Well, life's a dream, not in the sense of it being unreal, but in the sense that we take meanings from it that arise from conditions in the unconscious mind, and that forms the significance of experiences


    The Back Room

     Calvino Rabeni: So in a way, the appearances reveal "information" about conditions in the "back room"
    Bruce Mowbray: "We see the world not as it is but as we are -- in the back room. . . "?
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: No, really. Our perceptions of the world (our experience) is formed by our "back room" .... stuff?
    Calvino Rabeni: Really. In part of course
    Bruce Mowbray remembers the movie "The I Inside."
    Calvino Rabeni: of everything that happens, and everything more that *could* happen, a certain version of it shakes out
    Darren Islar: I wouldn't' be surprised if behind the back room there is a back room, a back room, a back room........
    Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm. . . back rooms all the way down, maybe.
    Calvino Rabeni: No metaphysics or spooky causality or quantum things required to account for this
    Calvino Rabeni: Lots of layers, yes
    Bruce Mowbray: OK -- NOW you've got me thinking about something that I feel a need to ask....
    Calvino Rabeni: but no need to presume an infinite regress of levels
    Bruce Mowbray: OK?
    Calvino Rabeni: OK!
    Bruce Mowbray: OK.
    Wol Euler: ok.
    Calvino Rabeni: It's always OK
    Calvino Rabeni: :)


    The Grand Curriculum

    Bruce Mowbray: Well, most of my life I've held the "belief" that life is like a series of classrooms and that there is a sort of "cosmic curriculum" that everyone follows
    Bruce Mowbray: and that we go through these "wisdom learning" classrooms -- like in relationships, or marriage, or whatever. ..
    Bruce Mowbray: and that if we don't "learn it properly" the first time,

    Bruce Mowbray: then we have to take that "class" again. . .
    Bruce Mowbray: and we continue doing this until we finally "learn it..." THAT, in fact was my basic idea of "Karma."  And so the "Classes" go on and on - maybe even across lifetimes.

    Wol Euler: happy new year, boxy
    Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Boxy.
    Wol Euler: Bruce, perhaps we are the classroom - for others to learn in?
    Calvino Rabeni: I think of learning as cycles within cycles, repeating
    Wol Euler: there's a lawyer joke that illustrates this well
    Bruce Mowbray: Well, I realized this week -- for the first time - that I no longer believe that!
    Darren Islar: I don't think that is originally what karma means
    Alfred Kelberry: Woly! :)
    Darren Islar: hi boxy
    Alfred Kelberry: hello, pablings :)
    Wol Euler gently pulls Boxy's scarf
    Alfred Kelberry: hi, furry girl :)
    Wol Euler: ah, Bruce, that is progress indeed :)
    Bruce Mowbray: There IS no grand "curriculum."
    Calvino Rabeni: When a cycle gets established and takes root, there's an AHA, an insight or even a religious conversion experience - at a later stage there's the test, the evaluation, even the "dark night" experience
    Wol Euler: >IMHO YMMV
    Alfred Kelberry: wait, is it the circle session today?
    Calvino Rabeni: Not this time, Alfred
    Alfred Kelberry: ok
    Alfred Kelberry: darren, you look a bit like cal :)
    Calvino Rabeni thinks it is the other way around
    Darren Islar: yes, I'm afraid so
    Alfred Kelberry: ok, a lot like cal :)
    Calvino Rabeni: But better looking
    Wol Euler grins.
    Alfred Kelberry: same tribe? :)
    Bruce Mowbray: But Cal, even the "dark night experience" has a supposedly larger "Plan" about it -- going through the Night toward higher knowledge or salvation, etc.
    Darren Islar: was looking for something like this for a longer time, Cal gave me the links :)
    Alfred Kelberry: ah... i see now :)
    Alfred Kelberry: bruce, that's poetic :)
    Bruce Mowbray: What I was trying to say was that I no longer "believe" in that sort of "karma...."
    Darren Islar: and I couldn't' find any better armbands then he has :)
    Darren Islar: I'm not sure Bruce there is a plan
    Calvino Rabeni: It feels like we could really get somewhere with that Bruce, but I have a meeting
    Calvino Rabeni makes note to self to remember it though
    Bruce Mowbray: ok.
    Alfred Kelberry: darren, you got more muscles instead :)
    Darren Islar: okay Cal, see you
    Wol Euler: 'night cal, take care
    Alfred Kelberry: Bruce, you also dislike the incarnation idea?
    Bruce Mowbray: Bye, Cal.
    Calvino Rabeni: Dream mighty all :)
    Darren Islar: I have a gf boxy that seems to like those muscles
    Bruce Mowbray: Well, before you arrived, Alfred, we were discussing shame and fear and dreams and the unconscious, etc.
    Alfred Kelberry: ok, darren :)
    Bruce Mowbray: and that put me in the mind of "dream-like" beliefs -- spookiness, if you will.
    Alfred Kelberry: aha
    Bruce Mowbray: and I was saying that "karma" and "reincarnation" and a cosmic "curriculum" of having to learn stuff throughout life -- or else having to "repeat that class" . . .
    Bruce Mowbray: well, all of that now seems make-believe to me.
    Wol Euler: what is your new belief about those situations?
    Bruce Mowbray: What is my belief about "reincarnation, " for example?
    Darren Islar: but why is it that you don't belief in that concept anymore?
    Darren Islar: and what is there instead?
    Darren Islar: ah Wol, sorry ..... :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Why does there need to be something new to replace something that was make-believe?
    Wol Euler: np :)
    Darren Islar: nothing is also something
    Wol Euler: so your current belief is that there is no structure there that would need believing in? :)
    Bruce Mowbray: OK -- Example: I no longer believe there is a Santa Claus (I mean a physical guy who lives at the North Pole, etc.) ---
    Wol Euler pouts.
    Bruce Mowbray: but that doesn't mean that I have substituted something else for my belief in Santa Claus.
    Wol Euler: true, but Santa probably wasn't the core of an interlocking and life-forming set of beliefs that sustained you
    Bruce Mowbray: So, it is the same thing with karma or reincarnation. . .
    Wol Euler: (I'm just curious)
    Darren Islar: Buddhism works with the concept of Emptiness
    Bruce Mowbray listens for more from Darren and Wol (and Boxy) and Arisia.
    Darren Islar: hehehe
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    Darren Islar: emptiness shows forms
    Darren Islar: emptiness is the 'place' where forms appear
    Alfred Kelberry: i don't like reincarnation as becoming an ant in the next life. but you also can look at it as psychological states. as in 6 realms of being.
    Darren Islar: none of those forms are there forever
    Alfred Kelberry: it's again about perception
    Darren Islar: why things appear......... karma is a big tool
    Bruce Mowbray: I guess at the bottom of what I'm trying to say is -- that I no longer am "sustained" by beliefs at all.
    Alfred Kelberry: karma points is a good tool :)


    Alfred Kelberry: woly++
    Alfred Kelberry: woly's karma has increased
    Wol Euler: that could be good or bad, Bruce. We all need something that sustains us
    Wol Euler: IMHO
    Alfred Kelberry: woly, hope does
    Wol Euler: insofar as one has it :)
    Alfred Kelberry: those who don't are not with us anymore
    Bruce Mowbray: Well. . . I guess that depends on what you mean by "sustain" --- Like some people are sustained by "impossible dreams..."
    Wol Euler: others by the idea that they are saving species from extinction
    Alfred Kelberry: bruce, they do still hope that it can be possible
    Wol Euler: or children from forced prostitution etc etc
    Bruce Mowbray: But "hope" and "belief" and "Great Divine Plan" all seem pretty make-believe to me.
    Alfred Kelberry: we're very optimistic beings in our core
    Alfred Kelberry: wait, saving species?
    Wol Euler waves it aside. An example of a sustaining belief.
    Bruce Mowbray: I would never attempt to pull the rug out from under anyone else's belief system, but I sort of resent being told by those same folks that I HAVE to believe what they believe (merely because it sustains THEM).
    Wol Euler: agreed entirely.
    Alfred Kelberry: bruce, it's not hope in some spiritual form, but a simple hope to have a better life, etc
    Bruce Mowbray: "Hope" as a positive expectation. . .  Sure.

    Alfred Kelberry: it is hope :)
    Bruce Mowbray: I hope to make money in the stock market, for example.
    Darren Islar: I like the discussion but need to go
    Alfred Kelberry: unless you envy and hope for someone's misfortune :)
    Darren Islar: see you all :)
    Bruce Mowbray: OK. Good night, Darren.
    Wol Euler: 'night bp, take care
    Alfred Kelberry: but that would ruin your karma
    Alfred Kelberry: and make you a bad person
    Alfred Kelberry: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: What on earth does "ruin your karma" mean?
    Alfred Kelberry: haha
    Alfred Kelberry: bruce is cute :)
    Bruce Mowbray: ha ha! 
    Alfred Kelberry: well, again, not in a spiritual sense
    Alfred Kelberry: maybe basic goodness?
    Alfred Kelberry: something that makes a human being a good person
    Bruce Mowbray:  Ahhhh. Yes!
    Alfred Kelberry: but sadly, it has no ties to real life whatsoever
    Alfred Kelberry: or past life  
    Bruce Mowbray: For me "Basic Goodness" is precisely what life is all about.
    Wol Euler: I think there is a real and practical RL effect though
    Bruce Mowbray: I perceive the forms of nature and natural processes. . . in real life . . . and I 'see' Basic Goodness absolutely everywhere.
    Alfred Kelberry: you can be a terrible person and live a perfectly good life and die in bed around a loving family in your 100s
    Bruce Mowbray: so, no "need to be sustained" by belief....
    Wol Euler: for certain values of "perfectly good", yes
    Wol Euler: it's entirely possible to be a complete shit and still be happy, many psychopaths have proven that
    Bruce Mowbray listens intently to Wol and Boxy. . .
    Wol Euler: I just think it's not possible to be a complete *person* while behaving like a complete shit
    Alfred Kelberry: that maybe not, woly
    Alfred Kelberry: but I mean the karma ties to good deeds
    Alfred Kelberry: and then to your current and past lives
    Alfred Kelberry: this is common in many religions
    Alfred Kelberry: do good and you'll receive good in return
    Alfred Kelberry: it doesn't work in real life
    Bruce Mowbray: So, there are no "mindful" criminals?   no enlightened criminals?
    Wol Euler: oh I disagree totally, boxy
    Wol Euler: the world around me has been very much better since I started being kinder and more generous in it
    Alfred Kelberry: um, i can't answer that, Bruce :)
    Wol Euler: you get back what you radiate out

    Bruce agrees with Wol on that one!
    Alfred Kelberry: woly, yes, a common mantra
    Wol Euler: I base that on real experience, not religious theory
    Bruce Mowbray: Well. . . what I mean is. . . Can one be mindfully "awake" and still be a BAD person?
    Wol Euler: I'd say "no" but I am open to examine it more closely :)
    Bruce Mowbray: me too, Wol. . .  but might even be necessary for some folks to be BAD in order to become mindful. . .  in order to "wake up" to certain things in themselves and the world. . .


    Wol Euler: by going through catharsis? Perhaps
    Alfred Kelberry: some mindfully awoken popes do crazy shit
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)))))
    Alfred Kelberry: pardon my language :)
    Wol Euler puts a finger to her lips.
    Bruce Mowbray bows head in deep prayer for Boxy's cardboard soul.
    Alfred Kelberry: well, I'd pray for those souls who fell victim to popes
    Bruce Mowbray: Me too, Boxy!
    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, did you know that for hundreds of years it's been a mortal sin to use condoms for birth control?  but in the past two months that has changed. . .
    Wol Euler: and yet popes are infallible.
    Wol Euler: sorry, I couldn't resist.
    Bruce Mowbray: If you are THINKING about the condom as a disease-prevention device, it is no longer a sin to use it!

    Bruce Mowbray: So -- what if just at the last minute, you switch from thinking about the condom as a disease-preventer to thinking of it as a conception-preventer -- Do you go to hell, then?
    Alfred Kelberry: i don't like the word "believe" much as it becomes a blind faith in a while
    Alfred Kelberry: woly, by the scripture?

    Ranting about religious authority and sexual oppression
    Wol Euler: no, the infallibility of popes is NOT based on scripture, but on a convention of cardinals a few hundred years back
    Alfred Kelberry: bruce, i hate what main religions did to sex and its perception
     Bruce Mowbray advises all to think of condoms as water balloons, next time.
    Wol Euler: heh
    Wol Euler thinks it is best to think.
    Wol Euler: as in "for yourself"!
    Alfred Kelberry: I'd rather be in lust in Homerian tales
    Wol Euler nods to boxy
    Wol Euler: it's a very effective form of mind control
    Bruce Mowbray: Yayyyy for Wol's idea! Think for yourself -- Experience for yourself. . . and share your experiences with respect for the experiences of others!
    Wol Euler: find something that people *really* want to do, and tell everyone that they'll go to hell unless they follow your prescriptions and requirements
    Alfred Kelberry: bruce, yes, good message :)
    Wol Euler: and then make those almost impossible to follow completely
    Alfred Kelberry: woly :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Shaming can be a large part of controlling others.
    Wol Euler nods to Bruce
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    Wol Euler: well, in Abrahamic cultures at least
    Bruce Mowbray: yes, and also in Far Eastern cultures.
    Wol Euler: we share a common and relatively ancient belief that the body is "bad"
    Wol Euler: and that its actions and desires defile us
    Bruce Mowbray: also that Nature and the female are "bad."
    Wol Euler: especially females, yes
    Wol Euler growls
    Bruce Mowbray joins Wol in growling.

    Wol Euler: a very large part of all religions is men trying to tame women's sexuality
    Wol Euler: because it scares the shit out of them
    Bruce Mowbray: absolutely -- because they FEAR it!
    Alfred Kelberry: woly, not ancient
    Alfred Kelberry: it's pretty new
    Bruce Mowbray: and males fear their own inadequacy in relation to the female.
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    Wol Euler: a large part of the fetish of virginity is exactly that
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes!
    Bruce Mowbray: Males have a fetish about "control" because they so often are unable to control their own bodies -- let alone the bodies of women.
    Wol Euler nods
    Alfred Kelberry: ah, come on
    Wol Euler: you disagree?
    Alfred Kelberry: let's not skew this topic :)
    Bruce Mowbray: sorry to generalize about "males," but I think you understand what I mean.
    Arisia Vita: why did the gods always prefer virgins to be sacrificed to them? or was it the male leaders who determined that?
    Bruce Mowbray: skew it, Boxy!
    Bruce Mowbray: Good question, Arisia!
    Wol Euler: I think that is based on some pretty canny primitive psychology
    Alfred Kelberry: priests were the ones who wrote what gods want
    Wol Euler: we value things in part by what they cost us
    Wol Euler: if you could get absolution for a penny, it would be worth only that
    Arisia Vita: and priests were always male?
    Wol Euler: but if you have to give up your house and your savings, then you have an incentive to believe that it is *worth* that sacrifice
    Alfred Kelberry: mostly
    Wol Euler: like the Abrahamic prescription that sacrificial animals must be healthy
    Alfred Kelberry: well, you eat them afterwards, no?
    Wol Euler: the priests did.
    Wol Euler: not the donors
    Wol Euler: IIRC
    Wol Euler can't be bothered to get out Leviticus tonight
    Alfred Kelberry: house and savings and your kids if they're "wrong"
    Alfred Kelberry: say, if your kid is gay, what does your religion say you should do?
    Wol Euler: good question.
    Alfred Kelberry: most of them would try to cure it or isolate
    Wol Euler: mine says "embrace and cherish them"
    Alfred Kelberry: and often times parents are ok with it cause "god said so"
    Alfred Kelberry: *hugs woly*


    Wol Euler: shhhhh
    Alfred Kelberry: *feels warm fur* :)
    Wol Euler smiles
    Alfred Kelberry: that was a good break :)
    Alfred Kelberry: timely
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    Wol Euler: certainly gave you a good long hug :)
    Alfred Kelberry: yes, please :)
    Wol Euler: *it did
    Wol Euler: anyway, I must go. Time for bed.
    Alfred Kelberry: um, it was a general response of appreciation and joy :)
    Wol Euler: goodnight all, take care, be happy
    Wol Euler: ah :)
    Bruce Mowbray: OK. Good night, Wol. and THANK YOU for sharing tonight!
    Alfred Kelberry: auf, woly
    Alfred Kelberry: meep-meep!
    Arisia Vita: will you join us at Thinkers Alfred?
    Arisia Vita: meets in a few mins
    Alfred Kelberry: what is it?
    Arisia Vita: ah
    Arisia Vita: a discussion group
    Bruce Mowbray: Yeah, come on over to Thinkers with us, Boxy!
    Arisia Vita: run by Extropia DaSilva
    Alfred Kelberry: isn't it under water?
    Arisia Vita: nope
    Arisia Vita: you might like it
    Alfred Kelberry: ok, another one then
    Bruce Mowbray: No -- That's Pamala's Think Tank (not advisable for cardboard boxes)
    Arisia Vita: and it's easy to leave...
    Alfred Kelberry: ah, right, bruce :)
    Alfred Kelberry: tank, i remember now :)
    Arisia Vita: Exti is already there, shall we go early?
    Alfred Kelberry: easy to leave - i like that :)
    Bruce Mowbray: a good group though!
    Arisia Vita: Exti is Extropia...
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, please give me a TP, then.
    Alfred Kelberry: um yes... I'd like to
    Arisia Vita: I will tp you both
    Arisia Vita: stand by
    Alfred Kelberry: don't have much time though
    Alfred Kelberry: Bruce? you coming?
    Arisia Vita: yes he is
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I'm going to go to Thinkers... and I can send you a TP, Boxy.
    Alfred Kelberry: ari will do :)
    Alfred Kelberry: got it

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