2011.01.07 06:00 - Time Session

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    Comments by Zen Arado. First session of the year and a revision of earlier sessions. Pema's book is at:  http://wiki.playasbeing.org/PaB_Books/Magic_of_Time

    Introductory and settling in period:

    Pema Pera: Hi Eliza!
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Pema :)
    Bleu Oleander: hi everyone :)
    Eliza Madrigal: HI Bleu :)
    Maxine Walden: hi, all :)
    Riddle Sideways: Morning, Maxine and Blu and Zen
    Riddle Sideways: amd Bruc
    Eliza Madrigal: very dazzling first thing in the morning, Riddle :)
    Maxine Walden: Happy New Year (even if a week late)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hello Maxine and Bruce :)
    Pema Pera: hi everybody streaming in :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hey, Zen
    Bruce Mowbray: Hello!
    Maxine Walden: yes, the rotating neutron star Riddle?
    Bleu Oleander: yes, dazzling indeed!
    Zen Arado: Hiya all
    Bleu Oleander: hi Zen
    Riddle Sideways: not actually this bright, it is illusion
    Maxine Walden: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Pema Pera: neutron stars are affectionately known as "degenerate stars" in my field :)
    Eliza Madrigal: hehehe
    Bleu Oleander: :)
    Maxine Walden: ah....maybe Riddle is giving us a representation of Time
    Pema Pera: actually, neutron stars, in the form of pulsars, are by faaaar the most precise clocks in the Universe!
    Maxine Walden: well, interesting!
    Bleu Oleander: hi Jan
    Riddle Sideways: you guys always seem to work things around to the subject at hand :)
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Maxine Walden: :)), was thinking how mesmerizingly beautiful your av is, Riddle
    Bleu Oleander: timely
    Zen Arado: bought her an AO last night and it won't transfer drat
    Zen Arado: wow yes Riddle
    Zen Arado: a being of light
    Riddle Sideways: TY, it is all in the persuit of art
    Eliza Madrigal: well pursued!
    Bleu Oleander: :))
    Maxine Walden: :))
    Riddle Sideways: :)
    Pema Pera: I wonder what kind of AO Riddle is using now . . .
    Zen Arado: you couldn't do anything like that in FL
    Bleu Oleander: ... but can you dance Riddle?
    Riddle Sideways: are we sure?
    Zen Arado: could you?
    Pema Pera: can you do the PaB dance with the neutron star, Riddle?
    Pema Pera: hehe, Bleu
    Pema Pera: btw, would anybody like to volunteer to post the chat log for today?
    Zen Arado: I can do it
    Pema Pera: thanks a lot, Zen!
    Maxine Walden: thanks, Zen
    Zen Arado: Hi Wol
    Pema Pera: hi, Wol !!
    Riddle Sideways: Hi Wol
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Wol :)
    Bleu Oleander: hi Wol :)
    Maxine Walden: hi, Wol

    Pema begins the meeting proper:

    Pema Pera: Well, today we will start up our Time session series again -- with a blank Slate
    Pema Pera: Hi Vector!
    Maxine Walden: hi, Vector
    Bleu Oleander: hi Vector :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Vector :)
    Riddle Sideways: got one
    Eliza Madrigal: me too, since riddle is hyptnoizing me...
    Wol Euler sneaks in quietly
    Zen Arado: Hi Vector
    Eliza Madrigal: *hypnotizing, heh
    Pema Pera: hi Strannik!
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Strannik:))
    Vector Marksman: Hi all
    Zen Arado: Hi Strannik :)
    Riddle Sideways: Hi Vector and strann
    Strannik Zipper: Greetings
    Bleu Oleander: hi Strannik
    Pema Pera: would anybody like to say what he/she finds interesting/puzzling about time, to get started?
    Wol Euler: shall I start?
    Bleu Oleander: still don't know what it is :)
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Maxine Walden: please, wol
    Zen Arado: was going to say that
    Wol Euler: I can remember in perhaps 8th grade writing an essay on "Hamlet" and thinking about time, for the first time.
    Pema Pera: wow!
    Wol Euler: How odd it was to write about him in various times and tenses: at the beginning he's alive and at the end he's dead.
    Bruce Mowbray: seems impossible to "step out of time" -- We ARE it - It is us.
    Zen Arado: Hi Brian
    Bruce Mowbray: Hi Brian.
    Zen Arado: to be or not to be ?
    Pema Pera: Hi Brain!
    Wol Euler: So if I write about the end of the play, I have to describe him as a dead person, but if in my next paragraph I referred to an earlier incident he was alive again in my thoughts
    Bleu Oleander: hi Brian
    Pema Pera: and hi Six!
    Wol Euler: all the while my own time was flowing onwards, taking these points of his time like markers on the line with it.
    Wol Euler: I found that fascinating and confusing.
    Maxine Walden: very interesting, Wol
    Wol Euler: (done)
    Zen Arado: you can play with time in fiction
    Bleu Oleander: can play with time in rl too
    Zen Arado: but w play with time in our minds
    Zen Arado: we*
    Zen Arado: sorry forgot break
    Strannik Zipper: No wonder I like Doctor Who!
    Zen Arado: :)
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Pema Pera: I always loved any science fiction story about time travel, when I was in high school . . .
    Maxine Walden: Wol's example illustrates an aspect of Awareness or perhaps attentiveness which Pema was also writing about; as if our Awareness is a lens/perceiver/conceiver of farious aspects of Time
    Maxine Walden: *various aspects
    Pema Pera: Wol, while you were puzzling over that, did you consider the possibility that perhaps the time line model might not be correct, or at least not the only model?
    Wol Euler: In all honesty? probably not, no :)
    Pema Pera: I didn't either at that time :-)
    Wol Euler: I did visualize it as a clothesline spinning out behind me,with incidents pegged to it
    Pema Pera: it's somehow soooo ingrained
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    Zen Arado: the way I learned history in school was so linear time oriented
    Pema Pera: and yet . . . we never leave the present
    Zen Arado: hammered into us
    Pema Pera: it would be fascinating to walk into an elementary school class, and spend an hour trying out an "eternal now" model . . . .
    Strannik Zipper: we never leave the present, except to be lost in thought
    Zen Arado: Henry the eightth lives now ?
    Maxine Walden: what do you envision you would find, Pema, in that elementery class today?
    Zen Arado: :)
    Bleu Oleander: what does it mean to be in the present if your mind is somewhere else?
    Strannik Zipper: it means you are not present
    Pema Pera: I have no idea, Maxine
    Zen Arado: my mind was often somewhere else in school :(
    Maxine Walden: :))
    Riddle Sideways: some of the most enjoyable books/stories are told the way the story should be told, not by some straight time line
    Wol Euler remembers "Infinite Jest" and smiles
    Zen Arado: daydreaming is space and time shift?
    Zen Arado: used to do a lot of that
    Bleu Oleander: what part of "me" is present?
    Strannik Zipper: daydreaming can at least be avoiding the present
    Pema Pera: Wol, during the last RL PaB retreat, we talked about time -- about how we have (thoughts about) past and future, but how we are (always in) the present
    Wol Euler nods
    Pema Pera: so dropping what you have to see what you are means coming back to the present
    Pema Pera: and Strannik and Bleu: even daydreaming happens in the present, though it may be *about* other times and places
    Bruce Mowbray: in a psychological sense, yes.
    Pema Pera: but in fact you can never leave the present
    Bruce Mowbray: but if Time is what we ARE, then we do not stop being Time even when daydreaming.
    Pema Pera: only pretend-play in day dreams etc
    Brian Roop: waht about the deja vu experience?
    Wol Euler: well, I think that depends on your definition of the "you" that never leaves it
    Strannik Zipper: I think the present can be expanded by being more present in it
    Pema Pera: yes, Wol, good question!
    Wol Euler: immersive memory or flow take us out of consciousness-of-present
    Riddle Sideways really wants Stim to be here to explain zeroeth time
    Bruce Mowbray ponders "Deja vu."
    Bleu Oleander: that's what I was thinking Wol
    Strannik Zipper: Wol - I think it is the "you" that would rather be in a thought-story than present in the present
    Eliza Madrigal: not out of consciousness but out of 'thinking' perhaps...
    Wol Euler: yes, not thinking about, not aware-of
    Pema Pera: nice gradations!
    Wol Euler: Strannik, for me these immersive memory events are not evasions, they arise spontaneously
    Zen Arado: if we are always in the present, thinking of past and future just uses up brain resources that could be used for the present
    Pema Pera: oh, it is very practical to plan and remember, as such, nothing wrong with that, couldn't live without it
    Pema Pera: just a matter of how you consider it
    Wol Euler nods.
    Pema Pera: as a tool or as something that is ultimately real
    Pema Pera: we tend to diminish the meaning of the present to almost nothing
    Pema Pera: always live for the future, while perhaps fretting about the past -- THAT is the problem
    Wol Euler: ha!
    Brian Roop: whyh fret about the past
    Eliza Madrigal: and perhaps diminish consciousness/awareness to thinking?
    Brian Roop: ?
    Brian Roop: all we can do is learn from the past
    Vector Marksman: a matter of balance between linear time and presence
    Brian Roop: can't be undone
    Pema Pera: yes, Brian, I agree
    Maxine Walden: yes, we may consider the present as only a pinpoint of experience rather than a grounding
    Pema Pera: yet many people fret :)
    Zen Arado: guilt, regrets, shame
    Wol Euler nods to Zen
    Brian Roop: forgiveness is the great art
    Bleu Oleander: actually, aren't we always in the past as it takes fractions of a second to make us consciously aware of the present?
    Maxine Walden: holding onto fantasies...
    Brian Roop: ourselves, others
    Brian Roop: keeping the door open for those who won't forgive us
    Pema Pera: we have the choice to view past and future as ornaments of the present, enlarging and enriches the possibilities of being alive right now
    Strannik Zipper: I would like to suggest two experiences of time in the present in the form of two paintings as described by David Hockney:
    Strannik Zipper: The photograph is the ultimate perspective picture. The viewer is outside the picture and there is a vanishing point, and the vanishing point can theoretically be called infinity. If the infinite were God, the viewer and the infinite could have no connection whatsoever, and never have any connection, so I assume that is the God that died at the end of the nineteenth century. When you reverse perspective, which is what Picasso did with Cubism, the viewer can see all sides of an object, has movement in space, and is everywhere at the same time. Infinity is therefore everywhere, including within the viewer. That actually sounds better to me, theologically. (10)
    Maxine Walden: ornaments of the present, a wonderful image...
    Brian Roop: i think we have to achieve a right apprehension of the past
    Brian Roop: it's a duty
    Brian Roop: not just an ornament
    Wol Euler: interesting!
    Wol Euler: (@hockney)
    Zen Arado: yes interesting Strannik
    Bleu Oleander: Hockney ... cool
    Brian Roop: missed the bell, sorry
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Zen Arado: me too :(
    Pema Pera: (@ Bleu: we can take the present to be spread out over a couple seconds)
    Strannik Zipper: I would say that both paintings are in the present, but the experience is very different
    Pema Pera: (whatever fits in the lived sense of now)
    Riddle Sideways: you can take Now and spread it through your life
    Zen Arado: a Cubist painting shows time when you think about it
    Bleu Oleander: now .... tricky
    Brian Roop: yes that's a fascinating insight, about cubism, never thought of it that way
    Brian Roop: but in personal experience, now is all we've got
    Strannik Zipper: A chinese scroll painting, also with no fixed perspective, allows time-freedom a well
    Strannik Zipper: as
    Vector Marksman: history (= the past) gives context and changes meaning in the present
    Strannik Zipper: perspective=position
    Pema Pera: yes, and history is thus part of the lived present
    Vector Marksman: yes
    Brian Roop: @ strannik, or is it the other way around
    Wol Euler: mmmm, maybe
    Maxine Walden: agree Vector and Pema
    Pema Pera: the "eternal now" is very different from the momentary now of a point in time taken out of context
    Wol Euler: surely not as a direct experience, except the experience of remembering/knowing?
    Bleu Oleander: as are one's future thoughts part of the present
    Strannik Zipper: @Brian - yes, both
    Zen Arado: an artist spends time on a painting but it can only be viewed as a complte work with the time all there and condensed into one moment
    Pema Pera: a direct experience of remembering :)
    Wol Euler: mmhmm :)
    Brian Roop: is any work of art everr finished?
    Brian Roop: or is it that the just take it away?
    Brian Roop: take music
    Brian Roop: the composer writes it out
    Maxine Walden: always becoming?
    Strannik Zipper: even a "photographic" painting often has more life than an actual photo, because it has more time in it - a more expansive present
    Brian Roop: but the interpreter governs what we hear
    Pema Pera: @ Wol: when you see the face of a lover, you don't see "a face" plus "an indirect sense of remembering something"
    Bleu Oleander: at least half maybe more of a work of art is the viewer so in that sense never finished
    Zen Arado: music takes time
    Vector Marksman: yes the view is part of the art
    Wol Euler: true, but I was distinguishing between memory and history. To me the lover's face is not "history"
    Vector Marksman: viewer
    Strannik Zipper: Wol - for some of us it is!
    Bleu Oleander: what is the difference between memory and history?
    Pema Pera: but the personal history is part of the lived presence -- yes, different from "abstract history"
    Wol Euler grins.
    Zen Arado: but there is a kind of distiied essence of time in a lover's face
    Pema Pera: yes
    Zen Arado: or any old and loved obect
    Wol Euler: or the Proust moment :)
    Brian Roop: the fish we caught gets bigger every time we tell the tale
    Bleu Oleander: isn't history someone's memory ?
    Maxine Walden: :)
    Wol Euler: going to a party with people whom you know from early on, and seeing your memories of their younger selves overlaid on the aged body
    Zen Arado: patina of age
    Wol Euler: that is a direct experience of time :)
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: history doesn't seem strictly necessary ... one can connect with someone instantly in a way that makes little sense of context ... we just don't do it enough
    Brian Roop: the younger part of my extended family lives far away, i only see them two or three times a year, my image of them is from the last time i saw them
    Zen Arado: memories are overlaid in the present though
    Pema Pera: nice point, Eliza!
    Wol Euler nods to Eliza
    Zen Arado: true too Eliza
    Maxine Walden: agree, Eliza
    Pema Pera: and yes, sometimes you can look an old friend in the face, and suddenly see the person as if for the first time
    Vector Marksman: we're immersed in hstory - mostly unconscious
    Maxine Walden: which may have to do with our inner perceiving lens as much or more than with an occurrence in the old friend...
    Pema Pera: yes!!
    Zen Arado: yes
    Zen Arado: we are changing too
    Bleu Oleander: see everything through the lens of our own history/memories
    Wol Euler nods.
    Brian Roop: well i'm reaching a stage of life where my old friends are mostly actually old
    Riddle Sideways: :)
    Maxine Walden: :)
    Wol Euler: :)
    Bleu Oleander: :)
    Brian Roop: maybe we'd rather not see one another they way we are
    Vector Marksman: :)
    Zen Arado: we see in kind of snapshots of time?
    Pema Pera: how about doing a little experiment?
    Pema Pera: during the next break?
    Eliza Madrigal: OK
    Strannik Zipper: sure
    Zen Arado: sure
    Bleu Oleander: sure
    Pema Pera: we can just be quiet and try to look for time
    Pema Pera: what is it -- how does it feel -- what does it mean to us
    Pema Pera: can we let time speak
    Pema Pera: can we listen to time?
    Pema Pera: etc
    Pema Pera: whatever we like
    Brian Roop: hmmmm
    Pema Pera: makes sense to try?
    Pema Pera: no rules
    Pema Pera: all holds barred
    Eliza Madrigal: 'just try and see' ... sure
    Pema Pera: (is that how they say it in wrestling?)
    Vector Marksman: I was thinking - presence has less to do with time than awareness... it is a different category
    Wol Euler: *no holds barred
    Maxine Walden: no holds barred?
    Pema Pera: ah yes
    Pema Pera: hahaha
    Brian Roop: well they say no holds barred but i think here we should bar all holds, be free
    Maxine Walden: my sense too, Vector
    Pema Pera: all holds allowed, yes
    Wol Euler: :)
    Strannik Zipper: presence can seem like a space through which time moves
    Riddle Sideways: ah, Quiet, real quiet messes up Time
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Pema Pera: I got a sense of trying to catch time as trying to ride a dragon -- while trying to be time feels more calm, like being the dragon and leisurely flying
    Brian Roop: i was floatting down a silent stream
    Vector Marksman: raw being alive
    Bleu Oleander: Riddle's AV is like a clock reminding me that time is still moving even though we were sitting still
    Brian Roop: time was the stream, sometimes it poolled and eddied, but it ever moved along
    Wol Euler nods to Brian
    Brian Roop: and moved me along
    Maxine Walden: as I look for time, just then I had the 'voices' of each of our thoughts, the sweep of Riddles lovely spinning star, my heartbeat...all within the 'container' of time
    Pema Pera: yes, I felt that too, Bleu, watching Riddle's clock :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Time, for me, includes the banks of the stream and the forests on the banks, and the air around the forests, etc etc etc.
    Zen Arado: I suddenly thought that if time stopped you would all freeze on my screen and if that happened in RL I wouldn;t be able to do anything - I would be completely immobile because all actions need time to complete
    Maxine Walden: need continuity, Zen?
    Zen Arado: yes or flow
    Bleu Oleander: or does movement create time?
    Strannik Zipper: @Zen, this happens in SL!
    Vector Marksman: sequence
    Riddle Sideways: Hi Freud, just in time
    Wol Euler giggles.
    Zen Arado: Ho Freud
    Brian Roop: doesn anyone understand einstein
    Brian Roop: or was he just putting us on?
    Strannik Zipper: Pema, does!
    Freud Jungsten: Haw
    Zen Arado: in what way Brian?
    Brian Roop: well maybe i'm too literal minded about experience, have chewed over time and space but pretty sure i just don't get it
    Pema Pera: unlike the rest of us?
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Wol Euler: heheheheh
    Riddle Sideways: :)
    Bleu Oleander: :)
    Zen Arado: me neither - but maybe there isn't anything TO get
    Brian Roop: can onlyh speak to my own experience
    Zen Arado: just our deliberations
    Riddle Sideways: when really quiet, can't find time anywhere
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Riddle
    Pema Pera: [06:47] Riddle Sideways: ah, Quiet, real quiet messes up Time
    Bleu Oleander: where is that space Riddle?
    Pema Pera: that was great, Riddle!
    Riddle Sideways: that space is all around and not
    Riddle Sideways: read a book titled "De Here Now"
    Riddle Sideways: Be
    Zen Arado: time is thought?
    Riddle Sideways: baybe that was when NOW becamse important
    Riddle Sideways: m
    Maxine Walden: This may not be in the plan Pema has outlined, but I would hope we could continue these experiments, in the 90 sec pauses, as I feel we are informing ourselves and each other from our experiences/efforts to describe time
    Riddle Sideways: 'when' we watch our thoughts there is time (when)
    Pema Pera: fine with me, Maxine!
    Riddle Sideways: if just thought... there is no time
    Maxine Walden: :)
    Pema Pera: we can bar all holds, after all
    Wol Euler notes that the 7am PaB session will start at the next bell, or are we running unbarred and unbeholden into it?
    Brian Roop: i need to go
    Bruce Mowbray is watching the watch on Strannik's left wrist -- and thinking of the song "If I Could Hold Time in a Bottle."
    Pema Pera: (as Brian said)
    Maxine Walden: oh, I was thinking of during the next Time sessions to continue the experiments
    Pema Pera: hehehe, Wol
    Eliza Madrigal: yes that sounds great Maxine
    Pema Pera: nice song, Bruce!
    Pema Pera: ah, okay Maxine!
    Strannik Zipper: Time is, alas, what Iam out of - back to chasing a deadline (and what an awful word "deadline" is!)
    Pema Pera: but unlike you, who just got up, I'll have to go to bed -- midnight here
    Riddle Sideways: was thinking of the song "Does anybody really know what time it is"
    Wol Euler smiles.
    Bleu Oleander: time is relative
    Pema Pera: time is on my side (yes it is)
    Wol Euler: that could be a supplimentary exercise: collecting songs andpoems etc about time
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Pema Pera: I'd like that!
    Zen Arado: yes !
    Vector Marksman: yes - I like that
    Riddle Sideways: a playlist ???
    Wol Euler: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: thinks 'wish you were here' is about time....
    Zen Arado: there are plenty
    Zen Arado: yes
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Pema Pera: perhaps all songs are about time . . . .
    Bruce Mowbray: Thanks everyone.
    Vector Marksman: 1/2 songs ever wirttien have time in them
    Eliza Madrigal: yes
    Bleu Oleander: time to say goodbye .... bye those who are leaving
    Wol Euler: bye to all those leaving
    Pema Pera: hahaha, Vector!
    Wol Euler: goodnight pema, sleep well
    Zen Arado: bye to all leavers
    Eliza Madrigal: time for others to fly
    Vector Marksman: bye
    Eliza Madrigal waves
    Riddle Sideways: bye, those leaving
    Pema Pera: thanks everybody!
    Maxine Walden: yes, bye all, see you next time...
    Zen Arado: have a nice time
    Zen Arado: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: prepares to grab the log...
    Pema Pera: and for next week we'll read the first Part of the Time book
    Wol Euler nods.
    Pema Pera: the first three chapters
    Eliza Madrigal: shark music
    Pema Pera: see http://wiki.playasbeing.org/PaB_Books/Magic_of_Time
    Riddle Sideways: night pema
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, yes good to include that in the beginning of the log...
    Eliza Madrigal: Night Pema
    Pema Pera: day, everybody!

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