2011.01.07 13:00 - contributing, introducing new topics and self ownership

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    // The initial subject of the session was the general aspect of contribution soon it swapped over to the issue of self ownership in the context of livethreatening and livequalitytaking deseases and the aspect of euthanasia.

    The Guardian for this meeting was Yakuzza Lethecus. The comments are by Yakuzza Lethecus.

    Qt Core: Hi all, i'm on my laptop, so no voice (on my side)
    Bertram Jacobus: you can´t even hear ?
    Qt Core: yes, i can
    Qt Core: Hi rhi
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey rhi
    Rhiannon Dragoone: hi Qt
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Hi Yaku
    Bertram Jacobus: hi rhia
    Rhiannon Dragoone: hi Bertram
    Satia Ruby: hi RotB
    Satia Ruby: hi Qt
    Rhiannon Dragoone: You speaking in voice, Yak?
    Bertram Jacobus: yes he is
    Rhiannon Dragoone: um, why?
    Bertram Jacobus: in 2 minutes the normal session starts
    Qt Core: the hour before the friday 1am session is voice happy hour, rhi
    Rhiannon Dragoone: ok
    Rhiannon Dragoone: oh, i didn't know that
    Rhiannon Dragoone: hi Wol!
    Bertram Jacobus: hi "woly" ! :-))
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey wol
    Wol Euler: evening all
    Qt Core: back to text in 1 minute :-)
    Satia Ruby: hi wol
    Qt Core: bye Bert, then
    Bertram Jacobus: bye all - and ty !
    Satia Ruby: <<< barts stalker...
    Bertram Jacobus: may all beings be happy plz ! ...
    Satia Ruby: have to leave too so
    Rhiannon Dragoone: bye Betram!
    Rhiannon Dragoone: bye Satia
    Qt Core: bye Satia :)
    Satia Ruby: was nice to hear you again yaku... and nice to meet you all other.. have a great session :))))
    Wol Euler: bye satia, bye bert
    Yakuzza Lethecus: ok, hey everyone
    Yakuzza Lethecus: before during the voice session in brought up different suggestions for discussion
    Yakuzza Lethecus: one element was for example: what makes a session here a good one
    Qt Core: no lag ;-)
    Wol Euler: :)
    Rhiannon Dragoone: well, one thing that makes it a good one is the friendliness and respet
    Yakuzza Lethecus: yes, i agree i think that is mandatory
    Rhiannon Dragoone: hi BruceE!
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey bruce
    Qt Core: hi Bruce
    Wol Euler: hello again Bruce
    Bruce Mowbray: Hello, again, everyone.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: while my focus is often on the issue that i myself am not contributing that much to the sessions
    Yakuzza Lethecus: on a subject level
    Yakuzza Lethecus: But is it even senseful to ,,try hard digging out some contemplative subject" ?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: or is it fine to just do some:
    Yakuzza Lethecus: onigokko
    Yakuzza Lethecus: stop
    Wol Euler: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    Bruce Mowbray: Hello, Arch.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey arch
    Qt Core: hi Arch
    Wol Euler: furries can't do onigokko, sorry, the prim bodybits occupy nearly all the attachment points
    Archmage Atlantis: Hi, all.......missed the voice chat
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Wol, i'm sorry, i'm not sure what you're talking about
    Rhiannon Dragoone: hi ARch!
    Wol Euler: it's OK, I was explaining to Yaku why I didn't do the onigokko with him
    Bruce Mowbray: I will.
    Bruce Mowbray: onigokko
    Darren Islar: hi everyone :)
    Bruce Mowbray: stop
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey panther :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Yayyyy!
    Bruce Mowbray: Great to loosen up a bit, huh?
    Qt Core: that'sit rhi, and it is a major topic in friday 12am sessions ;-)
    Qt Core: 1am
    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Leaping Panther.
    Darren Islar: hi
    Rhiannon Dragoone: hi Darren!
    Yakuzza Lethecus: Well, so an issue is on how to find a good subject and fun balance for me especially since i am usually ,,just around".
    Archmage Atlantis: Great, more mores......which name does one use to be polite?.......Panther, Darren, Leaping Panther, or LP?
    Archmage Atlantis: Actually, I remember the LP, but that's another story
    Darren Islar: anything will go, but Darren is the 'daily' name
    Qt Core: hi Darren, then :-)
    Darren Islar: :)
    Archmage Atlantis: :))
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Yaku, just around what? lol
    Yakuzza Lethecus: just around multiple things for example
    Yakuzza Lethecus: just reading other ppl´s contributions hoping for some serendipity´s to appear
    Wol Euler: :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: for example when i come home from work i am nearly always like that
    Yakuzza Lethecus: the 7am sessions is going to start nearly directly then
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i will cook coffee,o other friends are online in other places and only online by then
    Archmage Atlantis: just around = just listening to the conversation, me thinks......not participating actively
    Yakuzza Lethecus: exactly
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, sometimes, just listening is good, Arch
    Archmage Atlantis: Agree, Rhi, that was merely clarification, not critique
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey pam
    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Pam - Welcome!
    Rhiannon Dragoone: hi Pam!
    Wol Euler: hello pamala
    Pamala Clift: Hello again all.. smile.
    Qt Core: hi Pamala
    Wol Euler: have you been here before?
    Darren Islar: hi Pam
    Archmage Atlantis: Hi, Pam :)
    Pamala Clift: hehe..
    Rhiannon Dragoone: hi Jan
    Bruce Mowbray: Welcome, Jan.
    Jan Qualia: Hi All :)
    Archmage Atlantis: Yo, Jan :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey jan
    Qt Core: Hi Jan
    Darren Islar: hi Jan
    Bruce Mowbray: A question for Yaku - and for anyone else who wishes to answer (or not)...
    Bruce Mowbray: Would you feel comfortable introducing a new topic, Yaku?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: so for me the issue of how to contribute, how to bring a good being and contemplative subject out of my head
    Yakuzza Lethecus: or is it even needed
    Bruce Mowbray: I mean, instead of just listening?
    Bruce Mowbray: sorry - I should not have said "just" --
    Bruce Mowbray: listening is important, of course.
    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Zen.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey zen :)
    Rhiannon Dragoone: hi Zen
    Qt Core: hi Zen
    Pamala Clift: So I had a thought..
    Pamala Clift: hi zen
    Archmage Atlantis: HIya Zen
    Darren Islar: hi Zen :)
    Zen Arado: Hi all:)
    Pamala Clift: My mother in law's breast lump biopsy came back as cancer..
    Pamala Clift: so as I was discussing that with someone.. and knowing that cancer does seem to spread.
    Pamala Clift: could it be the duplication process of the cells is what has gone haywire and nothing else.. in other words.. the copy machine is broke
    Zen Arado: isn't that what cancer is - cells growing out of control?
    Pamala Clift: yes.. but what if the body itself is doing it because it is got a wrong program..
    Archmage Atlantis: I think that is more like cells that have turned against the other cells in the body
    Qt Core: from what i've read here and there the stopping p[art of the ccopying process go wrong
    Pamala Clift: Lupus is when the body trys to irradicate itself
    Zen Arado: it's something about the natural replacement process going wrong I thnk - but that's not much advance on what you said
    Qt Core: there are mechanisms that stop cells duplication when they get too "old" to diplicate itself in a good way and other systems that self destruct a "wrong" cells
    Zen Arado: that's more like MS where the body's own cells turn against it - it's immune system
    Pamala Clift: well she is in her 80s.. the body is naturally in a deteriating mode.. and we got to die of something.
    Darren Islar: only not differentiated cells can cause new cancers......
    Zen Arado: I have a friend with breats cancer and she is only 46
    Bruce Mowbray: Hello, Eliza.
    Zen Arado: Hi Eliza :)
    Darren Islar: hi Eliza
    Zen Arado: it has spread to her liver
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Everyone :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey eliza
    Qt Core: hi Eliza
    Rhiannon Dragoone: hi Eliza!
    Pamala Clift: Greetings
    Darren Islar: It is true Pamala, but I think there is dying and your own process about it
    Eliza Madrigal: wow, I really appeared on an empty cushion eh?
    Darren Islar: yes you did :)
    Archmage Atlantis: Hi, Eliza :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: we waited for you :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Thank you Arch!
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, Ya :D
    Eliza Madrigal: eek.. sorry all turned around and settling, sorry to interrupt
    Darren Islar: that you choose the right cushion doesn't mean you need to elevate yourself ;))
    Eliza Madrigal: hahahha
    Pamala Clift: yes.. she is trying to decide on her course of action.. it is a slow growing tumor.. sooo
    Pamala Clift: does she go thru all the pain of kemo.. and surgery
    Zen Arado: cancer is more agressive the younger you are I think
    Darren Islar: I think the process is the most important now
    Pamala Clift: or.. go thru the pain of dying..
    Darren Islar: true Zen
    Archmage Atlantis: Cancer is a broad description of a number of similar, but not identical cell malfunctions
    Darren Islar: hard choices Pam
    Wol Euler: back, reading
    Zen Arado: 80 seems like you have lived long enough...but I think you change yyour mind when you reach 80...
    Eliza Madrigal: indeed, sorry for your news Pamela
    Archmage Atlantis: Even just breast cancer.....men and children get breast cancer also, just very infrequently
    Pamala Clift: Hi Cal
    Zen Arado: Hi Cal :)
    Wol Euler: hello eliza, cal
    Yakuzza Lethecus: The mother for a coworker of mine didn´t want to have another chemo in the end, she died last year but she was only mid 75.
    Wol Euler: I'm sorry to hear htat, Pam
    Zen Arado: Hi Wol
    Eliza Madrigal waves
    Rhiannon Dragoone: hi Cal
    Pamala Clift: Well we are born.. and we die.. just the method by which it happens should be a little more ..ummm
    Yakuzza Lethecus: But she was already weak before that.
    Qt Core: how invasive and hard and painful the treatmen would be will be a major consideration
    Calvino Rabeni: Hello everyone :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: Hey cal.
    Archmage Atlantis: So the topic, Pam, is more end of life decisions than cancer per se, is that correct?
    Eliza Madrigal: our care treatments are often so harsh...
    Rhiannon Dragoone: hi Kolya!
    Pamala Clift: as I understand.. the topic can wander where ever it goes.. with the universe under control..smile
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Kolya
    Darren Islar: hi Cal :)
    Zen Arado: gets into euthanasia
    Zen Arado: Hi Kolya
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Arch, it may be more whether and when we should take our lives
    Pamala Clift: yes.. euthnasia.. is a topic of curiosity
    Archmage Atlantis: Hi Kolya
    Pamala Clift: Hi Kol
    Yakuzza Lethecus: Hello Kolya
    Qt Core: hi Kolia
    Qt Core: y
    Archmage Atlantis: Or allow them to end, Rhi, without actively taking them
    Wol Euler: hello Kolya, have you been here before?
    Zen Arado: is killing the same as allowing to die?
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Sure, Arch
    Zen Arado: the old question
    Archmage Atlantis: Not to me Zen
    Pamala Clift: well it is not like departure from this world can be terminated.. we will all leave..
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Zen well, it depends on whether you have life support systems as part of normal care
    Rhiannon Dragoone: As wea can hold that the withdrawal of normal care is the same as killing
    Zen Arado: you know the conondrum about that?
    Rhiannon Dragoone: If I were to deprive you of an IV, for instance, that would be killing
    Pamala Clift: If I was in pain.. and there was no hope.. why would I not be able to say when check out time is?
    Eliza Madrigal: wow, your avi looks a lot like a RL friend of mine Kolya :)
    Darren Islar: I think a lot depends on the situation
    Darren Islar: things has changed
    Zen Arado: but if someone were to die if you withdraw treatment the result is the same as giving them an overdose of painkillers
    Yakuzza Lethecus: Kolya: i send you a pm concerning the aspect of logging and posting ur chat pls respond to that if you havne´t been here.
    Darren Islar: our illnesses take longer since we have 'cures' for them
    Archmage Atlantis: There is one more aspect to that to me, Killing is my decision about your live.....choosing to accept treatment is your decision about your life
    Darren Islar: so the issue of euthanasia should be looked at it accordingly
    Wol Euler: the significant issue to me is whether the patient wishes to be treated or not. If s/he wishes to die, then the doctors should honour that
    Zen Arado: stopping treatment is a decision too
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Zen, the result is, but the intention might be different, there is the issue of optionality, and altenratsives
    Eliza Madrigal nods @ Wol
    Pamala Clift: true words Leaping.. are we not causing more pain with treatment to exstend misery
    Eliza Madrigal: it is a dignity issue
    Zen Arado: doctors/nurses have to do this day in day out
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Zen yes, but if it is normal, expected treatment, that carries with it the issue of duties
    Zen Arado: you can complicate the issue
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Zen, the issue *is* inherently comjplicated
    Zen Arado: you know the story of a man who looks in and sees his nephew dwownng in a bath and does nothing
    Rhiannon Dragoone: It is not as simple as saying killing is the same as letting die
    Zen Arado: the other scenario - the man walks in and oushes his nephew under and drowns him
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Zen, and that isn't as bad as if he put his hand on the boy's head and prevented him from surfacing.
    Darren Islar: I think we complicated the discussion by ourselves, our interventions, all the possibilities.......
    Archmage Atlantis: No I do not know that story Zen
    Zen Arado: same result each time
    Darren Islar: with all the advantages and disadvantages
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Zen, same result, but difference in intention, in optionality, in duties, and so forth
    Zen Arado: but I agree or think we have to make the decision in the actual situation
    Bruce Mowbray: It is also a freedom of individual coice issue. Whose life is it?
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Only from a consequentialist perpective can we equate the two
    Archmage Atlantis: That, to me, is why the journey, and not the destination is important
    Bruce Mowbray: choice*
    Zen Arado: it's a pretty consequentialist issue
    Wol Euler wonders what "consequentialist" means, and runs off to google
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, but it's more than that
    Archmage Atlantis: Agree, Rhi, outcome is only a portion of the consideration
    Zen Arado: health services tend to work with utilitarian ethics
    Eliza Madrigal: that's too often a debate in itself... whether it should be a second hand determination
    Darren Islar: let us now Wol :)
    Darren Islar: know*
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Eliza, yes, considerations of autonomy vs heteronomy
    Eliza Madrigal: yes
    Rhiannon Dragoone: It is one thing to allow a person to take his or her own life; but then that raises the issue of assisted suicide
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Suppose you need somneone else to fulfil you wish here?
    Bruce Mowbray: The state of Arizona in the USA decided against paying for transplants -- so many will die -- (consequentialist decision?)
    Eliza Madrigal: and another 'hypothetical ethics' kind of thing... whereas I agree that the time is the choice... sits with the person and where they are
    Zen Arado: if you see someone in terrible pain and you can't ease it isn't it better to allow them to die?
    Eliza Madrigal: when they are
    Pamala Clift: well the government has little trouble executing bad guys.. Why not assist those who wish to leave also?
    Zen Arado: agree Eliza
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Zen, depends on whether you value life or comfort
    Pamala Clift: life is trancient..
    Zen Arado: more about suffering than comfort?
    Bruce Mowbray is remembering "Soylent Green."
    Darren Islar is glad living in Holland :)
    Zen Arado: on the other hand doctors and nurses need some guidelines
    Eliza Madrigal: well if we stopped everyone's suffering with putting them out of it no one would be here.. so the choice and person seem the thing still...
    Pamala Clift: do they have different rules in holland
    Archmage Atlantis: Bruce, to allow someone to die who wishes to live, and for which the means exist to achieve that, is another aspect
    Zen Arado: even from a legal perspective
    Bruce Mowbray: agree, Arch.
    Darren Islar: In Holland it is becoming less an issue
    Zen Arado: depends on the extent of the suffering I think
    Zen Arado: and ifi they would die shortly anyway
    Darren Islar: when somebody is really suffering, they can get offered a choice
    Archmage Atlantis: My base position is no entity should be allowed to choose live or death for an other entity that still can make that choice for their entityself.
    Wol Euler wonders why euthanasia (allowing people who wish to die to do so) always gets mixed up with eugenics (enforcing on other people a decision of whether they are fit to live).
    Darren Islar: at the same time, it only places the discussion in another place
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, i believe in autonomy, Arch, so i believe in voluntary euthanasia, whether active or passive
    Pamala Clift: good point Wol
    Rhiannon Dragoone: It's when others make a decision for the person that i am concerned
    Darren Islar: wonders the same Wol
    Rhiannon Dragoone: I didn't know that it did, Wol. Except maybe in Nazi times
    Zen Arado: I tend to think stopping terrible suffering might be more important than a principle
    Yakuzza Lethecus: yes, especially in the united states the elderly ppl produce most of their healthcare cost during their last month of their lives
    Darren Islar: but I guess it is about people you don't know anymore if they can decide about there own life
    Yakuzza Lethecus: so that´s one of mine concerns too
    Zen Arado: but needs safeguards
    Darren Islar: but i agree it is a mix up
    Pamala Clift: yes.. it may be.. in this economy.. that the government says.. your choice is.. pay your own healthcare or die
    Zen Arado: relatives can try to get rid of old people to get hold of their legacy
    Kolya Laryukov: I wonder sometimes if some people truly understand the permanence of death...not being
    Darren Islar: or truly understand suffering
    Zen Arado: living wills don't solve the problem either
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Zen, especially since they're not binding
    Zen Arado: people often change their minds
    Rhiannon Dragoone: The relatives still get to make the ultimate decision
    Pamala Clift: Well I always say.. if there is not life after death... and I believe there is.. than I cant tell them they are wrong.. so dont worry..smile
    Zen Arado: yes..and if Alzheimers is there...
    Darren Islar: right Pam, either way......
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Pamala, there's still a loss, even with an afterlife; esp. to those left behind
    Pamala Clift: omg. Alzheimers is terribly sad
    Rhiannon Dragoone: I'm sure Job missed his family terribly until the final resurrection when he got them back.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: An espect i see always against euthanasia is the one that if they ,,disappear" in an economic society, the health care industry also looses it´s interest in researching possible cure´s.
    Kolya Laryukov: our way of recording our lives through film and legacy create the illusion on long life and permanence....but I really understood death when my grandfather passed away and I was looking through my address book....
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Yaku, here consequentialism might work the other way, in that even if that were the case, there would be a duty to commit euthanasia in order to carry out a person's wishes
    Kolya Laryukov: I had to take him out...he was no more
    Zen Arado: I think it should be practiced on an individual basis not as a general principle
    Rhiannon Dragoone: I think the dignity and the autonomy of the individual is really what is the presupposition here
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Zen, the general principle would be the dignity and autonomy of the individual
    Zen Arado: that suffering can deprive one of
    Pamala Clift: True Kolya permenance is an illusion..
    Darren Islar: :)
    Rhiannon Dragoone: So is it just suffering vs life that we're talking about?
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Those seem to be the only considerations i've heard taken seriously
    Rhiannon Dragoone: hi Larl!
    Eliza Madrigal: Hello Larl
    Rhiannon Dragoone: And putting it that way titls the discussion in one direction, it seems to me, even if we're relunctant to go there
    Darren Islar: to me it is about dying, the way you are able to do that......
    Zen Arado: what about someone with MS who feels their quality of life is so poor they just don't want to live any more? - should they be granted assisted suicide?
    Rhiannon Dragoone: The way you are able to do that?
    Darren Islar: if the suffering becomes to big, to die in a conscious way.........
    Eliza Madrigal: we probably all have very personal ways of looking at the issue, but that is hard, so we hide in philosophy :)
    Darren Islar: you can start doubting about the excistence of life
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Zen, that presupposes the value of dignity and autonomy again
    Darren Islar: right Eliza :)
    Kolya Laryukov: Fear of death or respect of death plays a big part...two different issues, too
    Wol Euler: Hello Larl, I'll give you an intro to the group in IM so we don't disturb the others.
    Zen Arado: what about the individual's right to choose?
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Which no one wants to face head with its implications that life may not be an ultimate value
    Larl Lane: are u guys talking about death
    Darren Islar: I agree Kolya
    Eliza Madrigal: yes
    Zen Arado: death can be a relief
    Bruce Mowbray: Welcome, Larl.
    Pamala Clift: well exit stratigies..smie
    Kolya Laryukov: I guarantee the rich man in the story of Lazarus had no peace in death
    Larl Lane: bullshit....i came back from being dead
    Eliza Madrigal smiles at Pamela
    Yakuzza Lethecus: larl, pls respond to the pm i just gave you
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Right to choose, Zen? Or just the object of people's compassion?
    Larl Lane: death is total.....nothing beyound
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Right to choose does override the right to life sometimes
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm interested in the very different exit strategies of people I know
    Zen Arado: but if I want to die why should anyone else stop me?
    Darren Islar: Larl you're not connecting .....
    Eliza Madrigal: that choice spark seems life in a way
    Zen Arado: but I don't own my body I guess
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Zen, why don't you own your body?
    Wol Euler: zen, nobody should stop you IMHO.
    Zen Arado: well...if I own it it means there are two of me :)
    Wol Euler: I'd be sad if you did, but I recognize that you have the right to do so
    Zen Arado: self ownership issue
    Zen Arado: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-ownership
    Wol Euler: (shhhhhhh - let's take the pause to cool down a little)
    Pamala Clift: Well is an acceptable truth that none of us know what is beyond death.. As far as we know .. no one has come back because it is a reall party over there..hehe
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Self ownership; finally someone is getting to one of the underlying presuppositions. ;)
    Zen Arado: :)
    Darren Islar: it was there all along Rhi
    Rhiannon Dragoone: darren, i know, but no one wanted to face it explicitly except Zen
    Archmage Atlantis: I am disappointed Larl left.......I have been clinically dead 3x.....never saw a golden door, or a light to walk into, or a loved one waiting........but for me that is not proof that the is nothing beyound this life, or that there is
    Calvino Rabeni liked Wol's suggestion just before the pause
    Wol Euler smiles
    Darren Islar: I don't think that's true, but okay
    Bruce Mowbray loves Pam's interpretation of why no one has come back...
    Pamala Clift: *winks at Bruce and smiles*
    Darren Islar: I think it is a choice somebody needs to make ......
    Darren Islar: but what if somebody can't do it by him/ or herself
    Eliza Madrigal has to get going....
    Wol Euler: bye eliza, enjoy the weekend
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Eliza, tc
    Yakuzza Lethecus: take care eliza
    Bruce Mowbray: Walk in beauty, Eliza!
    Eliza Madrigal: Pamela, again sorry for your news and she is blessed to have you there for her with all your thoughtfulness
    Darren Islar: bye Eliza
    Archmage Atlantis: But we haven't solved the eternal questions yet Eliza *g*
    Wol Euler: I'm off as well, goodnight all. Pamala, my condolences for your mother.
    Zen Arado: it's only a philosophical question to me atm thank goodness
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Arch, send me a memo....hah
    Darren Islar: to me it is about teh deathprocess itself
    Pamala Clift: bye Eliza
    Archmage Atlantis: Will do :)
    Rhiannon Dragoone: tc Wol
    Qt Core: bye
    Zen Arado: bye Eliza
    Rhiannon Dragoone: bye Qt
    Zen Arado: bye Qt
    Zen Arado: bye Wol
    Darren Islar: is there room for a process of dying.....
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye wol an qt
    Rhiannon Dragoone: I hope so Darren, as there is a process for sure; and i hope we would acknowledge and validate it
    Archmage Atlantis: Bye....good conversation.....not one I want to have everyday, but good to cycle around once in a while.....Later dudes, dudettes, and others *g*
    Darren Islar: I mean consciously
    Pamala Clift: The hospices I heard about are angelic in their assistance with the dying
    Rhiannon Dragoone: ARch, i'll solve the eternal questions later today at my Descartes discussion
    Darren Islar: a process to follow
    Pamala Clift: bye Arch
    Zen Arado: bye Arch
    Rhiannon Dragoone: bye Arch
    Darren Islar: a process in which choices still can be made
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye arch
    Bruce Mowbray: So long, Arch.
    Calvino Rabeni: What I'd like to know - is - just how useful is it to talk like this - speculatively and abstractly as a generic philosophical question
    Calvino Rabeni: Compared to real stories about real people and situations
    Pamala Clift: I never solve anything.. that would eliminate the question? the only entertaining component of life..smile
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Cal, well, we have been applying the abstractions to concrete situations
    Zen Arado: it's applied philosophy
    Darren Islar: that it is why it is not about a word........
    Darren Islar: no Rhi we left that path
    Calvino Rabeni: Or maybe that's the temptation, RHi
    Zen Arado: doctors and nurses have to make crucial decisions about this daily
    Calvino Rabeni: it might be a hypothetical "I could if I wanted to" application
    Darren Islar: by trying to find an answer
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Right, and so the rules and principles become tools for their decision making
    Zen Arado: so biomedical ethics tries to provide some guidelines
    Darren Islar: why do i feel angry.........
    Pamala Clift: why do you feel angy Leap
    Zen Arado: but I agree that they can only be guoidelines and decisions must be made at the time in the actual situation
    Calvino Rabeni listens toward Darren
    Pamala Clift: if time & space is relative.. than everything is
    Darren Islar: well I'm asking myself that question Pam :)
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Pamala, you obviously don't know my relatives. lol
    Darren Islar: it is weird you know
    Darren Islar: half of the discussion was going so fast that it was hard to keep up
    Pamala Clift: whoops missed an appt..
    Pamala Clift: byee
    Calvino Rabeni: And I also want to ask, Pamala, whether you are finding the discussion helpful in relationship to your actual real situation?
    Bruce Mowbray listens for more about Leap's anger...
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Seriously though, time and space are relavtive only in a system of constants, such as the speed of light; so we do have foundations
    Rhiannon Dragoone: bye, Pam
    Yakuzza Lethecus: take care pam
    Yakuzza Lethecus: thx for sharing that issue with us!
    Zen Arado: bye Pam
    Darren Islar: we all, as I did, thrown in our own assumptions
    Calvino Rabeni: Guess I can't ask Pamala that question
    Bruce Mowbray: Be well, Pam.
    Bruce Mowbray: Thanks for being here today.
    Darren Islar: bye Pam
    Calvino Rabeni: but I can ask who's left
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Cal, save something for net time. :)
    Rhiannon Dragoone: *next
    Darren Islar: and not listening well.......
    Darren Islar: it was about this story of a mother in law
    Rhiannon Dragoone: hi Hadron!
    Darren Islar: that is diagnosed with cancer
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hello hadron
    Calvino Rabeni: One thing I'd like to see, is a balance between storytelling and speculative philosophy
    Darren Islar: and have to make hard decissions
    Calvino Rabeni: because they serve different needs and functions altogether
    Bruce Mowbray: Welcome, Hadron.
    Darren Islar: hi Hadron
    Zen Arado: Hi Hadron
    Hadron Heliosense: hello folks
    Darren Islar: adn Zen brought in his issue along with it
    Darren Islar: and I'm angry with myself for not having seen that enough
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hadron: pls respond once in the pm, thx
    Zen Arado: I did a course in applied philosophy one time about life and death issues
    Calvino Rabeni: I don't get it yet, Darren
    Calvino Rabeni: seen what and what for?
    Zen Arado: still find it interesting
    Darren Islar: i got estraight
    Darren Islar: I guess
    Darren Islar: never mind
    Rhiannon Dragoone: hi pia!
    Zen Arado: but some don't want to think about these issues and I have to respect thet too
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hello pia
    Zen Arado: Hi Pia
    Bruce Mowbray: Welcome, Pia.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: ok, thx very much everyone
    Darren Islar: bye Yaku
    Zen Arado: bye Yaku
    Bruce Mowbray: Be well, Yaku.
    Rhiannon Dragoone: tc Yaku
    Darren Islar: I do Zen, I have no problems talking about it
    Zen Arado: 'ownership' is a strange concept when you think about it too
    Zen Arado: so many ideas we take for granted
    Calvino Rabeni: Sell me your body Zen
    Calvino Rabeni: buy a new one
    Zen Arado: our consensual reality
    Calvino Rabeni: if you're the owner
    Darren Islar: hmmmm
    Zen Arado: and it implies there is a body and an owner
    Zen Arado: and a mind? that makes three :)
    Calvino Rabeni declares himself to be the master and commander of the ship of his destiny
    Calvino Rabeni: Oh that was yesterday :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Good luck, buddy!
    Zen Arado: :)
    Darren Islar: only the process seems reel then
    Rhiannon Dragoone: well, that is part of the conceptual framework, Zen
    Calvino Rabeni: Today I'm a leaf, blown in the winds of time
    Darren Islar: real
    Darren Islar: since you can ask who the owner is
    Darren Islar: of body and mind
    Zen Arado: it's like land ownership
    Darren Islar: you pass it on.....
    Rhiannon Dragoone: I own my body; and don't you guys forget that.
    Calvino Rabeni: Land ownership - a social construct
    Zen Arado: your SL one?
    Darren Islar: to me it is all in the process......
    Calvino Rabeni: Body ownership - not quite so much a social construct
    Zen Arado: who is that owns it Rhi?
    Darren Islar: the change of process while dying is tremendous
    Calvino Rabeni: Rhi is "owned" by Linden Labs
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Zen, another question; but I know *you* don't
    Zen Arado: if it is you
    Zen Arado: :)
    Darren Islar: right Zen, that's why I'm looking at the process
    Rhiannon Dragoone: And when the Nazi's socialized women and passed them around as "feld hore's" that was a contradiction of basic rights
    Zen Arado: if I was your husband would I have some rights over your body?
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Zen, only if I let you
    Zen Arado: conjugal rights?
    Rhiannon Dragoone: And spousal rape is now recognized as a crime in most states
    Zen Arado: yes but thats if a man were to force the issue
    Darren Islar: that is about privacy not ownership
    Zen Arado: only thinking
    Darren Islar: but I like to get back to the process of dying
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, the fact that it's wrong to "force the issue" shows self-ownership
    Darren Islar: the choices we make
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, i'd love to too, panther, but i need to log
    Darren Islar: that is where philosophy tries to catch things into words
    Zen Arado: bye Rhi
    Darren Islar: bye Rhi
    Rhiannon Dragoone: I always end up staying longer than I should here
    Rhiannon Dragoone: bye Zen
    Rhiannon Dragoone: bye panther
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye Rhiannon
    Rhiannon Dragoone: bye Cal
    Darren Islar: and give body to the word
    Darren Islar: instead of seeing it as a process
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Always, panther
    Darren Islar: a verb
    Rhiannon Dragoone waves and poofs
    Zen Arado: yes - I don't like philosophical thought experiments much
    Zen Arado: think everysituation is unique and different
    Zen Arado: and should be judged accordingly
    Zen Arado: but agin, we need rules laws and guidelines don't we?
    Darren Islar: yes
    Darren Islar: the context
    Zen Arado: exactlt
    Zen Arado: or even some clarifying thought
    Darren Islar: like my teacher is against abortion, but pro abortion law
    Calvino Rabeni: The Pause is upon us ... let's cool with what's been happening
    Darren Islar: sometimes you make a choice between two difficult things
    Zen Arado: these issues are difficult
    Calvino Rabeni: Letting the disturbances and upset settle down, without knowning what they are on a cognitive level
    Zen Arado: so people avoid talking about them
    Darren Islar: but the principles aren't that difficult
    Darren Islar: but they are not about right or wrong
    Darren Islar: it is more about being beneficial to someone
    Zen Arado: no - about making informed choices I think
    Zen Arado: and helping people yes
    Darren Islar: well also beneficial in the sense that you can ask yourself if life is adding something
    Darren Islar: even when life is hard.....
    Zen Arado: it could be an issue for me in the future
    Darren Islar: it still can be beneficial
    Zen Arado: or any of us
    Darren Islar: yes
    Darren Islar: closer to you now Zen then it is to me, but yes
    Zen Arado: if I have to sit at home all the time depending on people....
    Zen Arado: or how would any of you like to be put in an old peoples home?
    Darren Islar: sometimes thinking about it
    Zen Arado: but will think about that when I have to
    Darren Islar: when you know life doesn't get any better, only worse
    Darren Islar: where privacy is not 'normal' anymore
    Darren Islar: I mean better in a physical way (or mental like Alzheimer)
    Zen Arado: but it's funny that I enjoy life more now than when I was younger and more able bodied
    Darren Islar: that is what I mean with beneficial
    Bruce Mowbray: I'm 68 -- and agree with Zen on enjoying life more.
    Zen Arado: well..you would not have forecast that when you were 40 I'll bet
    Darren Islar: more suffering doesn't always mean that it isn't beneficial
    Bruce Mowbray: ;_0 exactly, so!
    Darren Islar: okay, other word..... :)
    Calvino Rabeni: very true
    Bruce Mowbray listens.
    Zen Arado: listens too
    Zen Arado: :)
    Darren Islar: I\m 46 now, when I was 20 I thought that was old :)
    Darren Islar: listens to the silence that slowly seems to come in :)
    Bruce Mowbray: I have a friend in his mid-90's -- and he's enjoyed the past 20 years more than any prior ones in his life.
    Darren Islar: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: He will be 96 at the end of this month.
    Bruce Mowbray: I'm off to get grub.
    Bruce Mowbray: May all be well and happy.
    Darren Islar: I think you spoke about him before
    Bruce Mowbray: Thanks for this discussion -- rather unusual for Friday afternoon!
    Zen Arado: you too Bruce
    Darren Islar: bye Bruce, thanks for staying for a while
    Calvino Rabeni: Bon appetit Bruce
    Bruce Mowbray: Bye for now.
    Zen Arado: bye
    Darren Islar: hehehe
    Calvino Rabeni: In some recent sessions we were talking about "spiritual bypassing" ,,, I feel like that could tie in with what we've been discussing here
    Zen Arado: yes Cal
    Darren Islar: oops, same jacekt
    Darren Islar: can you say more Cal?
    Zen Arado: a kind of 'serious issue' bypassing
    Zen Arado: ?
    Zen Arado: remembers when it was very impolite to mention the 'C' word
    Calvino Rabeni: We're enjoying life more than when younger
    Darren Islar: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: how can that be
    Darren Islar: hmmmm, maybe because we take it less for granted
    Zen Arado: I think it is my practice
    Darren Islar: noticing that there is something like aging
    Calvino Rabeni: we're talking about dying in a way that *tries* to reach beyond the constricting idea of "suffering"
    Zen Arado: or just suffering less because I am more mature
    Darren Islar: I see your point Cal
    Calvino Rabeni: we wer kicking around ideas about what to do near dying, and again, comfort and suffering kept being *big issues*
    Darren Islar: to me it is still the process
    Zen Arado: I sometimes tthink that people forget just how much pain and suffering is involved in cancer
    Darren Islar: it is what you perceive every step of the way
    Calvino Rabeni: and I'm reflecting that this is one of the main motivations in spiritual bypassing - the notion of escaping suffering as a prioirity higher than actually living or being real
    Darren Islar: right
    Zen Arado: well...it is the core of Buddhism
    Calvino Rabeni: how much smaller, spirituality seems to me, when it starts to be defined *mostly* with respect to the fantasy of avoiding suffering or escaping from it
    Darren Islar: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: and I disagree, zen, if that is taken as the fundamental idea of buddhism, it's quite a collapse from its full potential
    Darren Islar: I disagree there Cal
    Calvino Rabeni: I'd say that's the fundamental temptation presented by buddhism, towards spiritual bypassing
    Calvino Rabeni: after all it's just the *first* noble truth
    Darren Islar: that is maybe what people read in buddhism
    Calvino Rabeni: it's always seemed just a preparatory issue for beginners
    Zen Arado: it's all of them really
    Darren Islar: yes and no
    Calvino Rabeni: step on
    Calvino Rabeni: step one I mean
    Darren Islar: because you have suffering on many levels
    Zen Arado: suffering, cessation of suffering, the 8 fold path to relieve suffering
    Darren Islar: buddhism don't try to bypass life
    Darren Islar: but again we get into another discussion
    Calvino Rabeni: Its a negative formulation -
    Calvino Rabeni: what I mean is, one can label something as a pathology
    Calvino Rabeni: it doesn't really say anything about *life* on the other side of that condition
    Calvino Rabeni: and yet
    Zen Arado: I see what you are getting at Cal
    Calvino Rabeni: the pathology is defined implicitly by the possibility of life outside that condition
    Calvino Rabeni: or else no meaning
    Darren Islar: there is a difference between the first steps in Buddhism and what comes after that
    Darren Islar: probably because there is no other condition
    Zen Arado: my understanding is that the Buddha was only intersted in relieving suffering - if a teaching or philosophy didn't do that he thought it irrelevant and useless
    Calvino Rabeni: It feels sad to think, that people would go towards any religion or spiritual philosophy with a single thing in mind - "this will relieve me of my suffering" - and then that's all it becomes for them over time
    Darren Islar: that is indeed sad
    Zen Arado: but there's relieving the suffering of others too
    Calvino Rabeni: sure, but that's just a wider version of the same thing
    Calvino Rabeni: and the *ability* to do it is significant, not the bare fact of doing it
    Calvino Rabeni: if one
    Calvino Rabeni: has a sense of self that has grown or loosened or whatever, enough to care about the sufferings of others as well as oneself
    Calvino Rabeni: that is an indication that spiritual growth has occurred
    Calvino Rabeni: and that opens the door to a lot of things
    Zen Arado: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: a larger life in many dimensions
    Calvino Rabeni: On the other hand one could be over-focused on suffering, and do things that *seemed* like helpful behaviors for others, but aren
    Darren Islar: it is a simple technique to enlarge your world, to take in things you might not have thought about, to take the attention of yourself for a while
    Darren Islar: and for the rest
    Calvino Rabeni: t expressions of being, just behavior -
    Darren Islar: everything we do, has egoism in it
    Calvino Rabeni: meaning .. ?
    Zen Arado: removing suffering allows our natural joy to be
    Zen Arado: to arise
    Darren Islar: tht the suffering of others isn't the issue
    Darren Islar: nor your own egoism
    Calvino Rabeni: sure, but how many people postpone that in the future, over-focusing on suffering, postponing natural joy because of what the believe to be their fixed conditions?
    Calvino Rabeni: joy can happen any time
    Darren Islar: right
    Calvino Rabeni: not - one of these days, when I've gotten rid of suffering ...
    Zen Arado: suffering ust happens to me
    Darren Islar: it is not something far away
    Calvino Rabeni: suffering itself is a basis of joy
    Zen Arado: I don't focus on it
    Calvino Rabeni: possibly
    Darren Islar: it is the annoying dog barking at night
    Darren Islar: or the first flower in spring that catches your eye
    Calvino Rabeni: I've lived with the barking dog and come to enjoy it
    Zen Arado: my practice gives me ways to not focus on it
    Zen Arado: to accept it yes
    Darren Islar: so, what is that Cal....... passing suffering?
    Calvino Rabeni: more than accept it
    Zen Arado: be it
    Calvino Rabeni: to lend it "being"
    Calvino Rabeni: beyond toleration
    Darren Islar: i know
    Calvino Rabeni: to move inside it
    Zen Arado: to allow it to ...something
    Darren Islar: yes, part of you
    Calvino Rabeni: to feel like - were I to create this world, I would create this also
    Calvino Rabeni: because on one level we'
    Calvino Rabeni: are in a very creative relationship to experiences
    Zen Arado: so not getting rid of it but learning how to be with it
    Calvino Rabeni: "be" in a very active creative way
    Darren Islar: (it is still buddhism)
    Zen Arado: yes
    Darren Islar: (no, it is in buddhism)
    Zen Arado: changing our relationship to it
    Darren Islar: yes active.......
    Darren Islar: if there is a word to point at...... it is activity......
    Zen Arado: active acceptance
    Darren Islar: it is moving, motion
    Darren Islar: getting close to it, listening.....
    Calvino Rabeni: I don't critique buddhism or any religion or philosophy,... only the notion that makes it an suppressive anti-depressent drug - and hoping those who need to think that way can move into something greater and more alive
    Zen Arado: agree
    Zen Arado: maybe we need to start that way though
    Zen Arado: suffering as a motivator
    Darren Islar: any religion can be and can be the opposite
    Darren Islar: buddhism actually doesn't excist
    Calvino Rabeni: True
    Zen Arado: only some basic ideas
    Darren Islar: not even that
    Zen Arado: that we should question
    Darren Islar: hmmmmm..... that way......
    Zen Arado: and we are questioning suffering
    Darren Islar: the activity
    Darren Islar: and joy....... :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I think if you went around and did a survey of the general population, and asked about ideas about what "meditation" is for, a large number would not have much idea, and then past that, the next largest number would have the idea its purpose is to "make you calm and peaceful" which equates to "escape from my frantic suffering mind"
    Zen Arado: yes
    Darren Islar: i don't feel like there is something like natural joy, when there is no natural suffering
    Zen Arado: they always ask me - what would I get from meditating ?
    Calvino Rabeni: So it has to be "sold" somehow?
    Calvino Rabeni: and at the start, that idea sells it
    Darren Islar: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: but it's a kind of bypassing
    Zen Arado: but we put it in terms we know at that stage
    Calvino Rabeni: however it might be a practical way to get started
    Darren Islar: meditation is only an 'activity'
    Zen Arado: worldy materialism
    Zen Arado: yes - we don't know where it will lead us
    Calvino Rabeni: hmmm, wordly vs spiritual materialism .. tough choice :)
    Darren Islar: heheheh
    Zen Arado: yes - we project one onto the other I guess
    Darren Islar: there are steps in meditation, but you can't define it by what you will meet
    Zen Arado: but I better go now
    Darren Islar: k Zen
    Zen Arado: I ma spending too much time in SL I think
    Darren Islar: I know that feeling.....
    Darren Islar: bye Zen, sleep well
    Darren Islar: .
    Zen Arado: you too
    Darren Islar: thanks
    Zen Arado: nite
    Darren Islar: nite
    Darren Islar: somebody is taking a pee :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Ah, I had a question to ask Zen
    Darren Islar: ah.... :)
    Calvino Rabeni: but when I returned from getting my cup of tea,
    Darren Islar: that's why he lingered
    Calvino Rabeni: no Zen :)
    Darren Islar: ?
    Darren Islar: .
    Calvino Rabeni: ? ?
    Darren Islar: .
    Calvino Rabeni: *
    Darren Islar: never mind :)
    Darren Islar: .
    Darren Islar is turning of the typing thingy
    Calvino Rabeni: What are these emoticons?
    Darren Islar: which ones?
    Calvino Rabeni: . means what - "you have a point"?
    Calvino Rabeni: or "done"
    Calvino Rabeni: ?
    Darren Islar: no, it is to stop the typing, when I'm not typing
    Darren Islar: you need a character to stop it, and the dot is the smallest
    Calvino Rabeni: ah,to stop what?
    Darren Islar: the typing avatar, when I the typist isn't typing
    Calvino Rabeni: right
    Darren Islar: and you can turn it off, if I only new how....
    Calvino Rabeni: I wonder if Zen reads the logs of the chats here
    Darren Islar: don't know
    Darren Islar: why?
    Calvino Rabeni: and of course, since he's a group member, and it's a wiki, anyone can add comments
    Darren Islar: not sure what you are heading at....
    Calvino Rabeni: The wiki is an interactive medium
    Darren Islar: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: For instance, its possible to speak to myself in the future
    Calvino Rabeni: "Hey Calvino, if you're reading the chat log in the wiki right now, write YES after this line"
    Darren Islar: yeaeaeaeahhhhh...........
    Darren Islar: still dont know what you are heading at........
    Calvino Rabeni: Or less trivially, something like this:
    Darren Islar: ah found it
    Darren Islar: no typings anymore
    Calvino Rabeni: ** This was an interesting conversation - how about if we think about the idea of "materialism" in between sessions, and then get back to it in a future meeting?"
    Darren Islar: typing animation I mean
    Darren Islar: like that will work......?
    Darren Islar: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Are you talking about this typing animation
    Darren Islar: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: right :)
    Darren Islar: I like it, because you can see who is talking
    Calvino Rabeni: every now and then I feel mreo expressive and want to turn it on
    Darren Islar: but it shouldn't be there is you're not
    Darren Islar: I would like it on during meditation sessions.........
    Calvino Rabeni: if the typing animation is turned on, then you know if people are talking during the meditation
    Calvino Rabeni: taking with their hands
    Darren Islar: yes, more for when there is a talk going on after it, or in between
    Calvino Rabeni: I might leave the animation on, if I notice a temptation to get busy typing during the awareness pause
    Calvino Rabeni: and if I'd prefer not to do that
    Calvino Rabeni: so it's a self reminder
    Darren Islar: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I like to think there are people with more discipline than myself :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Ones who are masters of ritual and who structure their behavior with crisp precision
    Darren Islar: if they excist..... :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, it's a ... something to look up to .. a role model
    Calvino Rabeni: like watching action movies
    Calvino Rabeni: and thinking - if I really wanted to, maybe *I* could leap from the top of one building to the next
    Calvino Rabeni: but it's nice to know that *someone* can do it :)
    Darren Islar: :)
    Darren Islar: and special if that someone is close by
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Darren Islar: and you can feel the vibes
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, like running on a foot race
    Calvino Rabeni: and you can't compete, but maybe get passed by some elite runner, a top athlete
    Calvino Rabeni: and speed up to pace them for a while
    Calvino Rabeni: and feel the "vibe"
    Calvino Rabeni: or rather, take in their pattern physically
    Calvino Rabeni: very nice
    Darren Islar: yes, seeing him passing by
    Darren Islar: smelling him, feeling him
    Darren Islar: adn willing to follow yes......
    Darren Islar: there was this great teacher, when he came by to lecture, I could sit and stare at him, feelign completely satisfied
    Calvino Rabeni: And even nicer, if you have a friend who's a top runner, or a skillful doer-of-anything, who will put themselves next to you and let some of it rub off
    Darren Islar: he didn't even had to say anything
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes :)
    Darren Islar: yes :)
    Calvino Rabeni: This is a weird association, perhaps, but I'm thinking of those monks in asia
    Calvino Rabeni: who died, while meditating, and stayed in the meditation posture and slowly dried out
    Darren Islar nods
    Calvino Rabeni: and were put into a glass case to become part of the shrine for the temple they were in
    Calvino Rabeni: and people come around to offer their respect
    Darren Islar: that last thing is weird........
    Calvino Rabeni: and feel something to witness it
    Calvino Rabeni: that is, a real person becomes a statue
    Calvino Rabeni: except people know what they are looking at is more than a statue
    Calvino Rabeni: Right, it's weird from a western perspective about death
    Darren Islar: true
    Calvino Rabeni: however I like the causal way it's treated in language
    Calvino Rabeni: for example the names given
    Calvino Rabeni: "Dead Monk Temple"
    Darren Islar: I think it is also weird for a lot of Asian people
    Calvino Rabeni: http://www.travelpod.com/travel-phot....jpg/tpod.html
    Calvino Rabeni: for instance
    Darren Islar: nice pick
    Calvino Rabeni: oddly it's more intense to look at the photo
    Calvino Rabeni: than to see the monk himself
    Darren Islar: I like the sunglasses :)
    Calvino Rabeni: hehe
    Darren Islar: but it is not really weird
    Calvino Rabeni: no cigarette, even though he probably smoked
    Darren Islar: it looks pretty natural
    Calvino Rabeni: the sunglasses are there because his eye sockets don't look natural
    Calvino Rabeni: and they didn't I guess want to put in glass eyes
    Darren Islar: ah.....
    Darren Islar: no, but it is a bit of a cover up
    Darren Islar: but I don't know
    Darren Islar: the normal procedure is to leave a body alone
    Darren Islar: with masters, the body stays good for a few days or longer
    Darren Islar: after that it decades quickly
    Darren Islar: and get burned
    Calvino Rabeni: I liked seeing there, small firebox / chimney things (I don't know what they are called)
    Calvino Rabeni: near crematoria
    Calvino Rabeni: where you can place something and burn it as an offering
    Calvino Rabeni: something symbolically valuable
    Calvino Rabeni: maybe fake money, or beatiful little origami folded things
    Calvino Rabeni: turned into smoke and sent skyward
    Calvino Rabeni: gone
    Darren Islar: right
    Darren Islar: but that is what it is about....
    Darren Islar: gone
    Calvino Rabeni: yes but not really gone
    Calvino Rabeni: it is a primal quality of fire
    Calvino Rabeni: that it sends things into the atmosphere
    Calvino Rabeni: that is into a subtle realm that is all around us
    Darren Islar: sure
    Calvino Rabeni: and that is part of the "feeling" of those burnt offerings
    Darren Islar: right
    Darren Islar: then why keep statues 'alive'
    Calvino Rabeni: Boddhisattva perhaps?
    Calvino Rabeni: The feelings people have about death vary a lot by regin
    Darren Islar: the body is left at some point
    Calvino Rabeni: region that is
    Darren Islar: true
    Calvino Rabeni: I don't know what is popular where you live
    Calvino Rabeni: In the USA, cremation is the major thing on the West Coast by far
    Darren Islar: I think here too
    Calvino Rabeni: and on the East Coast, it's burial by far
    Calvino Rabeni: even within one diverse country / culture
    Calvino Rabeni: it varies
    Calvino Rabeni: as do the attitudes about end-of-life decisions
    Darren Islar: true
    Calvino Rabeni: and how much "say" the survivors ought to have
    Darren Islar: i guess we need to know more about the motivations......
    Darren Islar: back to the discussion :)
    Darren Islar: brb
    Darren Islar: back
    Calvino Rabeni: ah... where is the discussion .. mummified in a glass case, or up in smoke in the atmosphere? :)
    Darren Islar: well it seems to have a way of coming back, so for now, I should vote for the glass case :)
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Darren Islar: who's log is this anyway
    Darren Islar: he or she has a lot of work to do :)
    Calvino Rabeni: What do you suggest?
    Darren Islar: just wondering
    Darren Islar: it is a long night
    Calvino Rabeni: If you have some specific edits in mind? We could write a reminder
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, it reached the halfway point between sessions
    Darren Islar: erase all my comments?
    Calvino Rabeni: hehe
    Darren Islar: no
    Darren Islar: i don't like it as it is, getting carried away
    Darren Islar: but it is what it is
    Calvino Rabeni: Occasionally I tell people about play as being
    Calvino Rabeni: "An online group ... with a meeting EVERY SIX HOURS"
    Calvino Rabeni: they usually look really surprised
    Calvino Rabeni: open mouth
    Calvino Rabeni: bug eyes
    Darren Islar: like the AA :)
    Darren Islar: yes, same here :)
    Calvino Rabeni: heheh
    Calvino Rabeni: hmmm
    Calvino Rabeni: It's not that we shouldn't judge and label, but just not pre-judge and do it automatically and unconsciously
    Calvino Rabeni: (and that was apropo of something "in the air", so maybe I'm in favor of the cremation style of finishing up a topic)
    Calvino Rabeni: And I hope, the judging and labeling is itself, a journey
    Calvino Rabeni: :::: breathing :::::
    Darren Islar: :)
    Darren Islar: still reading :)
    Calvino Rabeni: One of the uses of the pause I find
    Calvino Rabeni: is to cool off a bit
    Calvino Rabeni: or to do something with "reactivity"
    Darren Islar: Wol made a remark about taking a time out...... taking the pause
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes I liked that
    Darren Islar: I remember I had some problems with that....... :))
    Darren Islar: which only made the point clear......
    Calvino Rabeni: And
    Calvino Rabeni: or but?
    Darren Islar: no but
    Darren Islar: I didn't had a problem with Wol saying, but I noticed that it was very difficult for me to take a breath :)
    Darren Islar: i guess that is why I remembered
    Calvino Rabeni: the recurring practical question is what about the reactivity, wha to do with it?
    Darren Islar: yes
    Darren Islar: well the thing is, part is mine
    Calvino Rabeni: yes always
    Darren Islar: I react but having a reason to do so
    Darren Islar: yes, but it makes it hard to address it well, not being able to make the difference
    Calvino Rabeni: its tricky somehow there are some interesting things to discriminate about one's own reactivity or attachments
    Darren Islar: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: one thing is that reactivity or whatever one calls it leads me to over-focus or be selectively aware
    Calvino Rabeni: and therefore miss quite a bit - maybe a large percentage - of what's happening in the sesssion
    Calvino Rabeni: whole topics and relationship events can pass unnoticed
    Darren Islar: I understand what you are saying, but there was a lot to miss in this session
    Darren Islar: so many comments in such short notice
    Calvino Rabeni: a lot to miss? You mean, that there was a lot going on, or that there were thngs worth missing
    Calvino Rabeni: I probably sort it out too
    Darren Islar: there was a lot going on
    Darren Islar: a lot of arguments that were put out
    Calvino Rabeni: that's one reason it feels difficult
    Darren Islar: you see it happen more often, when a topic is touching people
    Calvino Rabeni: there are these arguments that are apparently abstract
    Calvino Rabeni: but have intense real world consequences
    Calvino Rabeni: and raise possibilities that are felt
    Calvino Rabeni: but not named or resolved or given space by the mind
    Darren Islar: yes
    Darren Islar: something starts to work
    Darren Islar: people want to express themselves
    Darren Islar: but not knowing how
    Darren Islar: so you see a lot passing by
    Darren Islar: a lot of threads
    Darren Islar: a lot of different framing
    Darren Islar: and no pauses in between
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    Darren Islar: and that goes for me too tonight
    Calvino Rabeni: something about it is frustrating
    Darren Islar: at a certain point
    Calvino Rabeni: no time for integration
    Darren Islar: right
    Calvino Rabeni: so it starts getting more dissociative
    Darren Islar: and in itself that frustrates me
    Darren Islar: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: same here
    Darren Islar: I remember the first day of the retreat
    Darren Islar: getting a lost feeling
    Calvino Rabeni: hm?
    Darren Islar: we solved that by going in circles
    Darren Islar: so there is time to listen and to speak
    Calvino Rabeni: to give a deeper process a better chance?
    Darren Islar: yes, it immediately felt more integrated
    Darren Islar: more time
    Darren Islar: more focus
    Darren Islar: and most important it gives people a way of expressing themselves, also the things you don't feel like expressing normally
    Darren Islar: like we do now, because we are just with the two of us :)
    Darren Islar: if somebody should fall asleep here, it is me...... :)
    Calvino Rabeni: It's ok to sleep
    Calvino Rabeni: In fact
    Calvino Rabeni: I would like to propose a PaB session that is ALL sleep
    Darren Islar: :))
    Darren Islar: would be interesting......
    Darren Islar: I think I'm going to pick up the cube now
    Darren Islar: and go to sleep
    Calvino Rabeni: Ah thanks
    Calvino Rabeni: And I'll go do materialistic things for a while
    Darren Islar: sounds good........
    Darren Islar: :)
    Darren Islar: have a good day Cal :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Dream well, Bye :)

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