2011.01.08 13:00 - Playing shamelessly

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Aphrodite Macbain. The shameless comments are by Aphrodite Macbain.


    Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Paradise!
    Aphrodite Macbain: Love your hair
    Paradise Tennant: smiles thanks
    Aphrodite Macbain: Welcome Bruce!
    Bruce Mowbray: Thank you.
    Paradise Tennant: hiya bruce:)
    Bruce Mowbray: Good day, Aph and Para.

    Umbrella envy

    Aphrodite Macbain: I've been playing MaryPoppins (Aphro is carrying an umbrella)
    Paradise Tennant: smiles like marry poppins
    Bruce Mowbray: really?
    Paradise Tennant: Mary
    Bruce Mowbray: Merry.
    Aphrodite Macbain: Seeing if I can fly over rooftops and chimbleys
    Paradise Tennant: she was so cool :) could do so many things
    Paradise Tennant: I will bet you can !
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bruce Mowbray: love those chimbleys

    (Bruce opens an umbrella that is the blue like of a Morpheus butterfy)
    Aphrodite Macbain: Ah - nice colour Bruce

    Bruce Mowbray: Thanks, Apr -- you too.
    Paradise opens a HUGE umbrella)
    Bruce Mowbray: Oh my! Beautiful umbrelly!

    (Aphrodite Macbain: wow. That's a big one Paradie
    Paradise Tennant: smiles ...
    Bruce Mowbray: nice combo -- big umbrelly and bunny slippers.
    Aphrodite Macbain: with that you can fly over skyscrapers
    Bruce Mowbray: over planets!
    Paradise Tennant: yes planetary flight
    Paradise Tennant: we seem to be inverting
    Paradise Tennant: always find that looks a little odd :)


    Aphrodite Macbain: inverting? odd?
    Paradise Tennant: my head and torso are turning up side down every few minutes
    Bruce Mowbray ponders "inverting odd.
    Bruce Mowbray: really? not for me.
    Paradise Tennant: hmm maybe only my screen then?
    Bruce Mowbray: I think so.
    Aphrodite Macbain: not sure what you mean by inverting
    Bruce Mowbray: You haven't done any inversions since I arrived. . . that I've noticed.
    Paradise Tennant: when sl gets glitchy sometimes you will see your avi's entire upper body point in the opposite direct so your head is between your knees
    Bertram Jacobus: hi everybody
    Paradise Tennant: just awkward looking
    Calvino Rabeni: Hello everyone :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Bert!
    Paradise Tennant: hiya bertram gtsy

    Journeys of the soul
    Aphrodite Macbain: I'm IM-ing Graine Macbain- I haven't been allowed into Soul's Journey because I haven't been "age verified"
    Paradise Tennant: hiya cal :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Cal.
    Bertram Jacobus: ty ... :-)
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hello bert. Guten aben
    Paradise Tennant: what is soul's journey :)
    Bertram Jacobus: tyty again ... :-)
    Bruce Mowbray: Soul's Journey is the place where I meditate every morning... usually.
    Aphrodite Macbain: A meditation site
    Bruce Mowbray: It is the new Peacemakers Site.
    Bruce Mowbray: Just a sec. . . I will check brb.
    Calvino Rabeni: Did I merge with bert for a second, or was it an SL illusion?
    Bertram Jacobus: i had the same impression cal (!) :-)
    Paradise Tennant: sl is doing odd things today
    Paradise Tennant: we were just talking of inversions ;)
    Calvino Rabeni: As every day
    Paradise Tennant: yes as every day
    Calvino Rabeni: Yesterday an avatar's hair was behind a wall, or maybe the wall was through the hair, even though they were meters apart
    Paradise Tennant: hmm i hate it when it (her head presumably) shows up on my knee :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: Were you abe to gt into Soul's Journey today Bruce?
    Bruce Mowbray: I have returned from my journey to Soul's Journey. . . and I bear news.
    Paradise Tennant: ahh listens
    Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Zon.
    Paradise Tennant: hiya zon
    Bruce Mowbray: [silencio]
    Zon Kwan: hi all
    Bertram Jacobus: hi zon and zen. so happy that i finally can say such a sentence ! ;o) - ah : and (Leaping) darren, for sure. sry - unaware ...
    Bruce Mowbray: Hy, Leaping.
    Darren Islar: hi everyone :)
    Zen Arado: Hi all
    Darren Islar: zon and zen :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Here is my news: Soul's Journey is also in Bieup -- and it has a "M" moderate rating -- and so does the place where you are presently sitting, Aph.
    Aphrodite Macbain: I know. It doesn't make sense
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hello Leaping, Zon and Zen
    Bruce Mowbray: so I don't understand why SL is not allowing you into Soul's.
    Paradise Tennant: smiles hiya zen .. darren :)
    Zon Kwan: what is Souls Journey ?
    Bruce Mowbray: Soul's Journey is the new meditation site for Peacemakers.
    Zon Kwan: ah
    Bruce Mowbray: I usually sit there every morning at 7 slt for 20 minutes --
    Zen Arado: Peacemaker Institute?
    Bruce Mowbray: This morning Yaku joined me there.
    Aphrodite Macbain: I've been there with no problem and suddenly they say I can't get in because I'm not "age verified"
    Bertram Jacobus: the sim owners do the setting i guess (?) - so may be the peacemakers are on a sim, which requires age verification ...
    Bruce Mowbray: Used to be on Commonwealth Island - but that poofed at the beginning of the year. . . so now it's Soul's Journey instead.
    Zen Arado: ah ok
    Zon Kwan: does anyone have the LM ?
    Aphrodite Macbain: I thought soul travelling was ageless
    Bruce Mowbray: yes, I will give it to you....
    Bertram Jacobus: hi sophia
    Zen Arado: Vivienne Cassavetes
    Zen Arado: ?
    Bertram Jacobus: and bleu
    Aphrodite Macbain: Welcome Sophia
    Bleu Oleander: hi all :)
    Zen Arado: Hi Sharon, Bleu
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hi everybody :)
    Darren Islar: hi Beu, Sophia
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Bleu
    Zen Arado: ty Bruce
    Bertram Jacobus: ty bruce !
    Darren Islar: Bleu
    SophiaSharon Larnia: stil rezzing
    Zon Kwan: thx bruce
    Darren Islar: thx
    Zon Kwan: hi sophia
    Bruce Mowbray: I've given it to everyone except Aph - who already has it.
    Aphrodite Macbain: Leaping- good to see you
    Darren Islar: hi Aph
    Bruce Mowbray: Wait a minute -- I will give one to Aph too -- in case there's a slip up with hers.
    Aphrodite Macbain: I think I have to go and make sure I'm designated as "mature"
    Aphrodite Macbain: I was there earlier in this week. I think SL has been adding new categories
    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Sharon!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :) thanks Bruce
    Bleu Oleander: ty Bruce
    Zen Arado: they won't let Jan into some sites
    Aphrodite Macbain: How are you Sharon?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: good and you??
    Paradise Tennant: hiya sharon :) thanks bruce :)
    Zen Arado: think you have to be in SL for a period?
    Aphrodite Macbain: mmm- not great - I have laryngitis (sp?)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: oh no
    Bruce Mowbray: That's probably why I can't hear Aph today. . .
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yay that you can type here. hopefully not stressing your poor throat!
    Bruce Mowbray: sry, Aph. Get well ASAP.
    Aphrodite Macbain gins mutely at Bruce
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    Bruce Mowbray grins amicably back at Aph.
    Aphrodite Macbain: grins (tho gin would be nice)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: they used to think whiskey was good for that, the numbing effect i guess lol
    Bruce Mowbray would also like some gin....
    Bleu Oleander: ha! feel better Aph!
    Aphrodite Macbain: what shall we talk about today? other than gin?
    Zon Kwan: thoughts and feelings ?
    Darren Islar: be well Aph

    Playfulness and its opposites

    Aphrodite Macbain: I was wondering whether we could discuss playfulness - I feel quite playful with all the drugs I've been taking
    Darren Islar: hehehe
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    SophiaSharon Larnia: la la
    Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
    Aphrodite Macbain: I was wondering how to play with time
    Zon Kwan: playfulness is opposite to seriousness
    Darren Islar: not sure Zon
    Aphrodite Macbain: no such thing as serious play?
    Zen Arado: why can't we remember the future if it is all present now?
    Paradise Tennant: remembering the future zen
    Paradise Tennant: lots to like about play .. the creativity .. the connection .. they being in the moment of it .... the release and the perspective .. often thinks our serious natures are sadly out of wack with what is :)
    Zon Kwan: if one is serious, how can one be playful ?
    Aphrodite Macbain: creative? imaginative?
    Darren Islar: playfulness to me is playing with perspectives, and those can be very serious
    Paradise Tennant: cal was talking earlier ...

    Zon Kwan: playing can be serious
    Darren Islar: but playfulness adds a light tough to it
    Zon Kwan: but its not playfulness
    Zon Kwan: it is an attitude
    Paradise Tennant: of a loss of forgetfullness :) :)
    Zen Arado: I have a headache
    Darren Islar: ouch

    No serious sex with headaches

    ParadiseTennant: ouch
    Zen Arado: so sex for anyone tonight?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Zen hahah
    Darren Islar: bummed into something ?
    Zen Arado: I mean no sex for anyone tonight (blushes)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: sorry about your headache tho
    Zon Kwan: sex can be serious too
    Bertram Jacobus: sex ?
    Bertram Jacobus: ---> listens
    SophiaSharon Larnia: laughs
    Paradise Tennant: can also be playful lol
    Zon Kwan: seldom
    Calvino Rabeni contrasts childs play from "adult play"
    Zon Kwan: yes children pay playfully
    Zon Kwan: professional sportsmen dont
    Zon Kwan: both play
    Bruce Mowbray: lollipop: Bruce and Aphro do the lollipop dance Darren Islar: Bruce's (lollipop?) is bigger
    Calvino Rabeni: Second Life is mostly an adult playground ... is it not ?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :D
    Zon Kwan: lets be serious
    Paradise Tennant: lol
    Aphrodite Macbain: doing the lollipop dance and sitting down again.
    Bertram Jacobus: some say, a day without laughing would be a lost day ...
    Bleu Oleander: ⊱✿•*☆¨*•.☾APPLAUSE ⋆*•:*.•*¨*♥ APPLAUSE ♥*¨*•.❤**•*⋆ APPLAUSE ☽.•*¨☆*•✿⊰
    Calvino Rabeni: There is a movement called "serious play"
    Aphrodite Macbain: seriously
    Zon Kwan: a contradiction
    Bertram Jacobus: not for me. a contradiction to me would be serious and ridiculous and even that  only in a way ...
    Calvino Rabeni: Correction, I meant Serious Games  http://www.seriousgames.org/
    Aphrodite Macbain: lollipop (Aphro dances again, this time from a standing position)
    Aphrodite Macbain: trying to be playful. ...:-)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: giggles
    Zon Kwan:  to be serious can be a bit ridiculous
    Darren Islar: hi Lugh
    Lugh Fehr: heyy people :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hi ugh
    Aphrodite Macbain: how do I stop Bruce?
    Paradise Tennant: welcome lugh :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Lugh* gosh sorries
    Bertram Jacobus: hey alien lugh !
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hello Lugh

    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Lugh!
    Lugh Fehr: beeep
    Zon Kwan: seriously talking..as we know we will die, and in 100.000 years no one will know what we were serious about
    Aphrodite Macbain: no one will will know what we laughed about either
    Paradise Tennant: hmm maybe 50 years ..or less :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: very true Aph
    Aphrodite Macbain: Maybe they'll know whether we were serious by the writings we wrote and the buildings we built

    Darren Islar: after a while everything is gone
    Paradise Tennant: we have a very short impression :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: We're discussing play Lugh
    SophiaSharon Larnia: beep
    SophiaSharon Larnia: or the whole spectrum of what is in this time and space
    Zon Kwan: perhaps we should define seriousness
    Darren Islar: we, or nobody might ever remember, but it shapes us anyway
    Calvino Rabeni: Seriousness is defining things
    Bertram Jacobus: agree
    Paradise Tennant: yes, I always find flea markets sad when you see batches of photos on sale .. and no one knows those people, they are just forgotten faces staring out :)
    Zon Kwan: i can define a person playfuly too
    Aphrodite Macbain: Playfulness can be muddling hings
    Aphrodite Macbain: like my spelling
    Paradise Tennant: lol
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hehe Aph you and me both
    SophiaSharon Larnia: I feel serious about some things and can't define them completely in words
    Lugh Fehr: serious is an expression of the face and a tone in voice
    Calvino Rabeni: Playfulness is where the definitions push back
    Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
    Darren Islar: still I think there is a continuation, a process
    Bruce Mowbray:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite_and_Infinite_Games
    Aphrodite Macbain: a playful or serius process?
    Paradise Tennant: yes darren :) a continuation :) in new form
    Bruce Mowbray: Finite and Infinite Games -- a fascinating book on the subject of Play.
    Zon Kwan: seriousness is getting muddled
    Zon Kwan: in things
    Zon Kwan: in thoughts
    Bruce Mowbray: "muddled" is an excellent word. . .
    Calvino Rabeni: Play requires something at risk and a background of safety
    Darren Islar: I think seriousness is the other side of the medal of playfulness
    Darren Islar: or something.... :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: I thought playfulness is muddling the serious edges
    Zon Kwan: seriousness is not balance
    Paradise Tennant: what's at risk when you play cal?
    Aphrodite Macbain: opening everything up for change; becoming unbalanced?
    Calvino Rabeni: Your dignity, among other things
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes Aph
    Lugh Fehr: seriousness is a product of worry
    Calvino Rabeni: Certainty
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes Cal.
    Paradise Tennant: smiles, certainty we never have though
    Bertram Jacobus: hi jan
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Jan
    Lugh Fehr: hey jan
    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Jan.
    Darren Islar: hi Jan
    Bertram Jacobus: take a seat with us if you like jan
    Aphrodite Macbain: Welcome Jan!
    Paradise Tennant: hiya jan
    Aphrodite Macbain: can you find a cushion?
    Darren Islar: cushions are over here, not in the museum :)
    Bertram Jacobus: there is one waiting for you ... ;-)
    Lugh Fehr: yeey full circle
    Bertram Jacobus: ah. you found it ... :-)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :D
    Aphrodite Macbain: Right next to Bruce or me
    Jan Qualia: Hi all

    Playing together as a group

    Aphrodite Macbain: How can we, as a group, be playful?
    Bertram Jacobus sings quietly "play as being, play as being" ...
    Zon Kwan: gtg, c u
    Aphrodite Macbain: stickey keys
    Bertram Jacobus: bye zon
    Darren Islar: bye Zon
    Bruce Mowbray: Bye, Zon.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: what is the tune to that Bert? ;)
    Bertram Jacobus: again and again, a new one so far sophia ! :-)
    Aphrodite Macbain: we need our own song or tune
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hahaha
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Zon
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bye
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bye! bye Zon
    Zen Arado: bye Zon
    Jan Qualia: au revoir Zon
    Bertram Jacobus: i can´t be playful as a group :o)
    Aphrodite Macbain: WE can though
    Aphrodite Macbain: we are when we dance, play with words, dress up
    Aphrodite Macbain: form a chorus line or soccer team
    Bertram Jacobus: only with my multiple personalities - ok, forgot that ;-)
    Lugh Fehr: by not worrieng
    Zen Arado: everyone worries
    Lugh Fehr: not everyone
    Zen Arado: play helps us forget worries maybe
    Bertram Jacobus: i always think "beyond, beyond" - there all is possible
    Aphrodite Macbain: beyond what Bert?
    Bertram Jacobus: beyond everything aph
    Aphrodite Macbain: play lets us see things in new ways

    Active dreaming and Dreamingin SL

    Calvino Rabeni: Play is for trying on new realities - it's a form of active dreaming
    SophiaSharon Larnia: brb :)
    Paradise Tennant: yes
    Zen Arado: experimenting?
    Lugh Fehr: wow nice way to put it
    Darren Islar: active dreaming, that sounds nice
    Paradise Tennant: like that active dreaming sort of a dream with movement so you can dream grace :)
    Paradise Tennant: fluidity
    Bleu Oleander: different kinds of play
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes Cal- but maybe a deliberate form of active dreaming
    Aphrodite Macbain: controlling and exploring
    Zen Arado: I'm dreaming my life away
    Darren Islar: don't overdo it Zen ;)
    Aphrodite Macbain: sounds good to me
    Aphrodite Macbain: when do you wake up and why?

     ParadiseTennant: ooOoo asked me a good question: has anyone ever dreamed of sl or been in a dream as their avatar ?
    Lugh Fehr: nope but that would be wierd
    Darren Islar: I dream about sl
    Zen Arado: SL is a dream
    Aphrodite Macbain: Who are you when you dream in SL Zen?
    Zen Arado: I'm two people atm :)
    Zen Arado: do I have a split personality?
    Aphrodite Macbain: multiple Zen!
    Zen Arado: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: I WANT to dream about SL but have not done so yet.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: ive dreamt that i saw an avatar in rl
    Aphrodite Macbain: wow. did you recognize the avatar?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes
    Aphrodite Macbain: you met yourself?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: my avatar
    SophiaSharon Larnia: not really. hard to explain aha
    Aphrodite Macbain: did you have a conversation Sophia?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: (to Aphrodite, yes, sort of :) mostly nonverbal)

    Darren Islar: it is normal to dream about what we meet during the day
    Bruce Mowbray feels that "dropping" is a form of "play" - - - letting it all go and seeing what happens.
    Bertram Jacobus: agree
    Darren Islar: yes Bruce
    Aphrodite Macbain: Yes Bruce. I think so too. It's a process of discovery
    Lugh Fehr: everything is play and some people are playing a game even when they think its not play
    Darren Islar: or the other way around Lugh :)
    Lugh Fehr: play is something done without a useful end or result. What use is there anywhere for the universe
    Bruce Mowbray: welcome back, Aristia.
    Bertram Jacobus: hello ari ... ... ... :-)
    Darren Islar: hi Ari
    Darren Islar: so why not sl
    Zen Arado: Hi Ari
    Calvino Rabeni: Play and Art are meta-useful
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Ari!!
    Lugh Fehr: heya ari
    Paradise Tennant: smiles welcome ari :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hello and welcome Aristia we're talking about the meaning of play
    Arisia Vita: Hello my friends
    Paradise Tennant: meta useful ?
    Calvino Rabeni: Play and Art are about the context, not the content
    Aphrodite Macbain: as well about the form
    Zen Arado: I'm starting to find Jan really attractive
    Zen Arado: worryingly
    Aphrodite Macbain: everyone's an editor!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hehe Zen
    Jan Qualia: thank you Zen and for typing that for me
    SophiaSharon Larnia: giggles
    Darren Islar: the question of whether the universe has a meaning or not is, to me, not relevant. I'm here. To me that is relevant
    Calvino Rabeni: Dance qualifies as Play
    Paradise Tennant: yes dance is all manner of things
    Aphrodite Macbain: oh yes, anything creative qualifies as serious play don't you think?
    Lugh Fehr: for something to have a meaning it has to be a symbol of something in the universe that cheap?
    Darren Islar: your avatar get embodied

    Calvino Rabeni: Play is for amateurs, once the activity becomes professionalized, its work
    Zen Arado: professinalism takes the play out of it?
    Calvino Rabeni: Play as a word means "freedom of movement"
    Darren Islar: ah, not sure Cal, though I get your drift
    Zen Arado: if you create an avatar why wouldn't you like it?
    Zen Arado: him or her?
    Calvino Rabeni: Play generates unforeseen but generally pleasurable phenomena

    Aph begins to wonder whether Cal has discovered a rich source of quotes about play
    Aphrodite Macbain: even Bach can be playful
    Calvino Rabeni: Play is the friendly side of Chaos
    Aphrodite Macbain: controlled chaos?
    Aphrodite Macbain grins at Cal
    Calvino Rabeni smiles at Aphrodite in a slightly out of control way :)
    Lugh Fehr: any thing that's fun is play. You can pick up crap of the floor in a playfull manner
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    Zen Arado: we 'play' music
    Aphrodite Macbain: a bit like these ession
    Aphrodite Macbain: sessions
    Aphrodite Macbain: sticky ssses
    SophiaSharon Larnia: too much candy at the keyboard Aph
    Aphrodite Macbain: :-) Sophia
    Paradise Tennant: lol
    Calvino Rabeni: During the 90 second pause, other parts of oneself come "into play"
    Aphrodite Macbain: our monkey minds?
    Calvino Rabeni: Play is fun until someone breaks something
    SophiaSharon Larnia: haha Cal
    Aphrodite Macbain: maybe it becomes more fun when rules are broken
    Aphrodite Macbain: catharsis!
    Paradise Tennant: well sometimes not always a big deal - just sweep up the bits :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: loves chaos, but chaos is overwelming
    Darren Islar: uncontrolled chaos suggests no connections.....?
    Calvino Rabeni: The more Chaos you can handle, the more Fun is the Play
    SophiaSharon Larnia: ha!
    Zen Arado: play IS breaking rules - but games need rules
    Aphrodite Macbain:  I love what we're all saying!
    Calvino Rabeni: Play needs structure in order to break other structures
    SophiaSharon Larnia: been locked in controlled choas at work and sometimes its likeyour brain wakes up
    Zen Arado: we couldn't break rules if there weren't any
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes, because without structure there can be no play
    Calvino Rabeni: When the community plays, it's called Carnival
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: The rules of Play are not to be broken
    Lugh Fehr: is the meaning of life play?
    Bleu Oleander: called Play as Being
    Aphrodite Macbain: which came first? The structure or the play?
    Calvino Rabeni: Play and Structure co-arose
    SophiaSharon Larnia: co-dependant? :)
    Lugh Fehr: it's god's purpose- play
    Zen Arado: playing with words
    Bertram Jacobus: because it´s an infinity : none of both aph. i think so at least ...
    Aphrodite Macbain: or is it a constant cycle?  Laws get made, laws get broken
    Zen Arado: what laws ?
    Calvino Rabeni: Autumn is serious, Spring is playful
    Aphrodite Macbain: a pumpkin has to be playful Cal;
    Lugh Fehr: in the words of Eugene Heintz "if we are here not to do what you and me wonna do and go forever crazy with it, what the hell are we doing here?"
    Bertram Jacobus: or and sometimes less money in your pocket lugh
    SophiaSharon Larnia: who makes the laws?
    Calvino Rabeni: If you want to know, Sophia, break one and see who gives you a ticket
    Bertram Jacobus: laws ? like gravity ?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :D ^^
    Paradise Tennant: likes breaking rules
    Lugh Fehr: a ticket is a pice of paper
    Lugh Fehr: payed by more pieces of paper
    Lugh Fehr: paper that used to be air-giving trees
    Calvino Rabeni: Play is evidence of surplus intelligence
    Zen Arado: and surplus energy?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: time
    Calvino Rabeni: yep
    Zen Arado: that's why we play less as we age?
    Paradise Tennant: smiles- no reason to play less
    Calvino Rabeni: Play is a sign of abundance
    Bertram Jacobus: sometimes no time for gaming
    Paradise Tennant: almost every species plays .. more often when they are young
    Calvino Rabeni: Play is the learning phase
    Lugh Fehr: learning to do what?
    Darren Islar: I need to go guys and girls
    Darren Islar: got a tp
    Paradise Tennant: takecare darren
    Zen Arado: bye Darren
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye leaping panther :)
    Bertram Jacobus: bye darren
    Darren Islar: by all
    Lugh Fehr: byebye
    Aphrodite Macbain: It's been great playing with you all. I have to go and take some NeoCitron now!
    Aphrodite Macbain: Must fly
    SophiaSharon Larnia: oh Aph!! Feel better soon!!!
    Calvino Rabeni: Mary Poppins flies off (Aph takes off with her umbrella, Bleu flies away, Darren disappears, SophiaSharon shuffles off)

    Bleu Oleander: c u all!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Bye, Aph and everyone else who's leaving.
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Bye Bleu
    Lugh Fehr: bye Bleu
    Zen Arado: bye Aph
    Bertram Jacobus: bye all leaving beings
    Lugh Fehr: hehhe
    Paradise Tennant: smiles and playfully waves at the departing
    Lugh Fehr: well if sienfield is play why isnt our life also play?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye everyone, have fun!!!! gtg
    Lugh Fehr: byebye
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    Zen Arado: bye Sharon :)
    Bertram Jacobus: byee sophia
    Paradise Tennant: smiles I should scoot too :) thank you all for the 'playful' conversation :))
    Arisia Vita: I am called to help a friend, no higher calling for me, so I'll see you all later...
    Lugh Fehr: bye bye
    Zen Arado: bye Paradise and Ari
    Arisia Vita: bye all, for a bit...
    Bertram Jacobus: bye paradise and ari
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye Aria
    Calvino Rabeni: and Paradise
    Bruce Mowbray: Bye, Arisia and Para.

    Playing out play

    Lugh Fehr: what's the opposit of play?
    Bertram Jacobus: seriousity i think lugh
    Lugh Fehr: what's the difference between them?
    Bruce Mowbray: some people think "work" is the oppostie of play - but not me.
    Bertram Jacobus: there are many differences between them i think
    Lugh Fehr: like what?
    Calvino Rabeni: Play is "that which has no opposite"
    Bertram Jacobus: being more or less free, for example
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    Bruce Mowbray: Play is that word which ryhmes with 'orange'
    Zen Arado: got me stumped there Bruce
    Calvino Rabeni: brb
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    Lugh Fehr: hehhe
    Bruce Mowbray: Play might be one of those thing that, if we have to ask what it means, we will not understand the answer.
    Bruce Mowbray: Perhaps like "love."
    Zen Arado: yeah - we are so intent on defining things
    Bruce Mowbray: wb, Cal.
    Zen Arado: wb Cal
    Calvino Rabeni: thanks
    Bertram Jacobus: ok - I'll join ma girl now ... she will dj from 3 pm on and would like it so much if i would be with her then ... music is play ... and i found something yesterday - will leave it still, waving already ... :-)
    Bruce Mowbray: Bye, Bert.
    Zen Arado: have fun Bert
    Lugh Fehr: bye bert
    Bertram Jacobus: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dPIerr2K4s
    Bertram Jacobus: ty all - may all beings be happy plz ! :-)
    Bruce Mowbray: I worked with adults with profound mental retardation for about 13 years and one of the things we had (by law) to train them for was to evacuate the house within 5 minutes when the alarm went off.
    Bruce Mowbray: But they had NO IDEA why we were doing that.
    Zen Arado: difficult
    Bruce Mowbray: So, I came up with my "Laws of the Burning Room"
    Bruce Mowbray: Want to hear it?
    Lugh Fehr: yup
    Zen Arado: sure
    Bruce Mowbray: Law of the Burning Room:
    Bruce Mowbray: [silence]
    Bruce Mowbray: "If the room you are in is on fire, and you have to ask WHY you need to evacuate that room, then you will NOT understand the answer to your question when it is given."
    Bruce Mowbray: This applies to MANY things, of course.
    Jan Qualia: slips out
    Bruce Mowbray: Bye Jan Be well.
    Calvino Rabeni: Goodbye Jan :)
    Lugh Fehr: bye jan
    Bruce Mowbray: like global warming -- If you have to ask what the problem is, you probably won't understand the answer.
    Calvino Rabeni: Bruce, is a corollary something like "The room you are in is on fire, and you don't know it" ?
    Bruce Mowbray: and as with PLAY -- If you have to ask what that is, well, you probably won't understand the answers you get.
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, there are MANY rooms on fire. . .
    Lugh Fehr: very true bruce
    Bruce Mowbray: (but I didn't want to spoil the party).
    Calvino Rabeni: Don't explain the joke ... please :)
    Lugh Fehr: maybe its actually true to all questions if a REAL answer is searched for
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    Zen Arado: maybe
    Zen Arado: and perhaps is good too :)
    Bruce Mowbray: There is also a mean sort of "play" - -
    Lugh Fehr: like what?
    Bruce Mowbray: playing 'tricks' on people in order to shame them, for example.
    Zen Arado: practical jokes
    Bruce Mowbray: Play -- when only one side has the fun.
    Bruce Mowbray: but the other side suffers.
    Lugh Fehr: yeah like bullying still great fun dough
    Zen Arado: yeah - don't like them much
    Bruce Mowbray: yes, bullying is a perfect example.
    Bruce Mowbray sometimes needs to remind himself not to self-bully while in meditation.
    Lugh Fehr: well i do like it but i try to stay away from it as much as possible it spoils the love in an atmosphere
    Zen Arado: our hardest critic is ourselves
    Bruce Mowbray: "ourselves" can be one brutal guy -- He knows all of my bruised spots.
    Calvino Rabeni: Or maybe the most persistent
    Zen Arado: knows our weaknesses
    Bruce Mowbray: But -- I also feel that those are precisely the places I need most to visit while meditating.
    Calvino Rabeni: Why do you do it (criticize self?)

    Empty Shame tanks = hungry ghosts?

    Bruce Mowbray: partly habit -- partly because my "shame tanks" need refilling

    Lugh Fehr: imagine knowing all the thoughts and doings of another person. you'll hate his guts and be very disgusted by him
    Calvino Rabeni: Greetings Freud
    Zen Arado: Hi Freud :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Freud.
    Lugh Fehr: heya freud
    Calvino Rabeni: What does that mean Bruce?
    Calvino Rabeni: Shame tanks need refilling
    Zen Arado: you need more shame?
    Bruce Mowbray: (it's from the article by Robert Bly) --
    Calvino Rabeni: That's on the face of it a reversal
    Calvino Rabeni: so what does he mean, we "need shame"?
    Calvino Rabeni: Is it to self-motivate?
    Calvino Rabeni: Or what use does it have?
    Bruce Mowbray: If we are shamed as childhren. . . and that becomes an emotional habit for us, then we will seek out shame as adults. . .
    Bruce Mowbray: and if we do not find it actively, we will promote it - - thus keeping our shame tanks filled.
    Lugh Fehr: maybe we need shame to assert that we have a higher self that is capable to be a shamed of the action so to deatach ourself from it
    Calvino Rabeni: Umm, why exactly would we be posessed to do that?
    Calvino Rabeni: Does Bly explain that?
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, he does.
    Bruce Mowbray: In several ways.
    Zen Arado: shame is a pretty negative useless thing to me
    Calvino Rabeni: not according to this theory. So I'm interested
    Zen Arado: yes ok
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, it is negative and useless -- but perhaps so is sexual abuse. . . and some folks seem to seek that out -- to be inflicted upon themselves.
    Zen Arado: like masochism?
    Calvino Rabeni: So what good does it do?
    Zen Arado: self harming?
    Bruce Mowbray: sometimes, yes, like masochism.
    Bruce Mowbray: But I think that masochism is also a form of "play" that folks might have -- without abuse, per se.
    Lugh Fehr: it gives you the impression that your better than that
    Zen Arado: enjoyable in a perverse way
    Zen Arado: so we enjoy shame in that way too ?
    Freud Jungsten: I think that when shame is internally motivated, it can be very healthy...when it is externally motived, it can be very destructive.
    Lugh Fehr: i think we take refuge in it instead of acceptance
    Zen Arado: it could remind us to be more sensitive I suppose, to notice bad actions we have performed
    Zen Arado: Lugh Fehr: very christian i suppose
    Freud Jungsten: And there is a big difference between sexual shaming and regular emotional shame.
    Bruce Mowbray: "Take refuge" is very good --
    Bruce Mowbray: as like the child to runs away --
    Zen Arado: lots of guilt and shame in Christianity
    Freud Jungsten: Not really.
    Bruce Mowbray: not avoid being shamed more -- but then bringing more shame upon himself for running away...
    Freud Jungsten: If you want to focus on that part you can....
    Lugh Fehr: connoisseurs of shame hehehe
    Lugh Fehr: well main stream christianity gives me chills up my spine but deep down inside its as good as any other spirituality well before the romans got their bloody hands on it
    Freud Jungsten: But it is certainly not the point.
    Calvino Rabeni: I think it's incumbent on Bly to suggest a better rationale for "needing" shame, or else the theory risks heaping collusion and self-duplicity onto the shame
    Bruce Mowbray: There are an infinity of ways to be shamed, Freud. . .
    Freud Jungsten: Oh trust me.. I know.... lol
    Bruce Mowbray: OK Here's one, Cal:
    Bruce Mowbray: (although I'd rather Bly speak for himself) --
    Calvino Rabeni: thanks Bruce
    Bruce Mowbray: suppose I develop a false self to be what my shamers want me to be...
    Bruce Mowbray: and I continue to live in the false self for years. . .
    Bruce Mowbray: beyond the point when there are shamers around to require it.
    Lugh Fehr: true true
    Bruce Mowbray: Bly says that we will seek shamers -- to justify the existence of that false self....
    Bruce Mowbray: so, that's just ONE reason that we might seek shame.
    Bruce Mowbray: but there are many others.
    Bruce Mowbray: Bly also says we need to forgive ourselves for developing that false self -- because we HAD to develop it in order to survive.
    Zen Arado: Didn't know shame was so complicated
    Calvino Rabeni: Of course it is Zen
    Freud Jungsten: Self forgiveness is a huge topic by itself.
    Bruce Mowbray: Shame is probably the major way that people control each other.
    Lugh Fehr: hey got to run -a friend is at the door
    Bruce Mowbray: Bye, Lugh!
    Freud Jungsten: Ciao
    Zen Arado: bye Lugh
    Lugh Fehr: tnx for nice chat ciaw for now
    Lugh Fehr: sleep tight dont let the shamers bite hehe
    Zen Arado: shame on you
    Zen Arado: ah we try to make them feel ashamed
    Freud Jungsten: Can you explain that idea more Bruce please.
    Calvino Rabeni: The theory feels a bit one-sided - if it suggests shame is a "done to someone" thing and not something people participate in through their own choices
    Zen Arado: you still have to choose to feel the shame?
    Freud Jungsten: Agreed.. like I said.. internal vs external shame
    Calvino Rabeni: There's no one "shamed" without it being a version of what they believe to be true
    Calvino Rabeni: No Zen, not to feel it, but to believe its premise
    Bruce Mowbray:


    Zen Arado: to wallow in it then
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, Cal -- the participation is a sort of agreement. . .
    Calvino Rabeni: feeling is almost not important - most shame is not felt, not even noticed, quite unconscious
    Freud Jungsten: I do agree that shaming can be a form of abuse.... my mom still tries to do it to me today.
    Bruce Mowbray: and Bly says that when we "grow up" we need to forgive ourselves for that agreement.
    Bruce Mowbray: But of course, many people never grow up enough to do that.
    Freud Jungsten: But when I run a race and do poorly, I use my shame to motivate me to run more.
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, Freud -- so did my mother -- until she died.
    Zen Arado: shame as a motivator
    Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Inna.
    Zen Arado: Hi Inna
    Freud Jungsten: osiyo
    Inna Kanto: hi all

    Shame, Fairy tales and Wicked stepmothers

    Calvino Rabeni: Recently I'm noticing that most classic fairy tales have a "wicked stepmother" figure
    Inna Kanto: hi Zen
    Bruce Mowbray: yes, the wicked step-mother -- an archetype for shaming.
    Freud Jungsten: Not big on fairy tales.. can you name one please?
    Calvino Rabeni: The Juniper Tree
    Calvino Rabeni: Cinderella
    Calvino Rabeni: Hansel and Gretel
    Calvino Rabeni: Sleeping Beauty
    Freud Jungsten: Will look them up.
    Freud Jungsten: I know sleeping beaty.
    Calvino Rabeni: If I'm not mistaken they all have wicked stepmother figures
    Freud Jungsten: beauty even.
    Inna Kanto: not only fairy tales
    Inna Kanto: some great works too
    Zen Arado: we are talking about shame Inna
    Inna Kanto: like crime and punishment
    Inna Kanto: yes
    Inna Kanto: i saw that
    Calvino Rabeni: I'd not like to live in a shameless world, though
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, it would be shameful to be shameless.
    Bruce Mowbray: The fairy tale can be a sort of innoculation against the woes of living.
    Inna Kanto: I 'd like to add to what i' ve read till now to the things that you are saying
    Inna Kanto: that shame can also be an alibi
    Zen Arado: unashamedly shameless
    Bruce Mowbray: How so, Inna?
    Inna Kanto: for instance when someone as a step mother tries to shame you usually she uses something that she knows that you can't do.  If there is a possibility that you can do it you use shame in order not to do it. This is an alibi
    Bruce Mowbray: That's a fine example, Inna.... about shame being an alibi,

    Inna Kanto: thank you
    Calvino Rabeni: Thanks for the note, Bruce
    Bruce Mowbray: np.
    Bruce Mowbray: Shame is powerful -- so it will be used in many ways.
    Bruce Mowbray: president Reagan was ashamed to say the word AIDS for seven years.
    Freud Jungsten: What?
    Zen Arado: I suppose psychopathes don't feel shame?
    Inna Kanto: what a hypocrite
    Calvino Rabeni: The USA was afraid to say the word Alzheimers
    Bruce Mowbray: to say that about Reagan's disease, you mean, Cal?
    Freud Jungsten: You are going to have to explain that one please.
    Calvino Rabeni: It would be dangerous to have a shameless leader
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes that's what I meant actually
    Freud Jungsten: You mean like the one we have now?.... lol
    Bruce Mowbray: President Reagan had early-onset Alzheimers, it is supposed anyway.
    Freud Jungsten: Oh.
    Calvino Rabeni: Also, can you imagine, the public relations difficulty for a US president to have a psychiatric advisor or mental health coach?
    Freud Jungsten: I knew he died from it.
    Zen Arado: happens with disability - you hide it-ashamed of your own body
    Calvino Rabeni: Even if it would improve his leadership
    Freud Jungsten: As I understand it The second Roosevelt had polio.
    Bruce Mowbray: yes, he did -- and he kept that hidden also.
    Zen Arado: yes and he had to hide it
    Zen Arado: don't think anyone would make it to presidency now with a disability
    Inna Kanto: Dont you think that in these cases we have to deal with a complex of inferiority?
    Zen Arado: in these enlightened times
    Bruce Mowbray: One of the points Bly makes in his article on shaming is that we are often made to feel ashamed of our imperfect bodies. . .
    Freud Jungsten: lol
    Bruce Mowbray: so both deformity and disease might be felt shameful --
    Freud Jungsten: I am very good at that one....
    Bruce Mowbray: when of course they are NOT.
    Inna Kanto: Bodies are just tools
    Inna Kanto: some have better tools than others
    Zen Arado: I agree
    Bruce Mowbray: Tell that to a thirteen-year-old male!
    Zen Arado: but not sure that view is deeply held in society
    Inna Kanto: 13 y/o males are still developing
    Zen Arado: though it is given lip service
    Inna Kanto: no need to ask them
    Freud Jungsten: I think we are far harder on ourselves that way than men.
    Freud Jungsten: But society has different standards for men and women.
    Zen Arado: notice that with my female alt
    Bruce Mowbray: Body image, Zen - - - ?
    Zen Arado: am really disappointed when nobody says how nice I look
    Freud Jungsten: (noted)
    Zen Arado: after all the trouble I took .....
    Freud Jungsten smiles
    Inna Kanto: it s probably because you don't look nice
    Inna Kanto: lol
    Zen Arado: yes I do :)
    Bruce Mowbray: awwwwww!
    Zen Arado: I'm really cute
    Bruce Mowbray: of course "she" is!
    Freud Jungsten: I bet you are.
    Bruce Mowbray: But that should not matter, right?
    Zen Arado: no?
    Bruce Mowbray: don't know. . .
    Bruce Mowbray: I see very few ugly avi's, you know.
    Zen Arado: yeah - stiff opposition
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    Bruce Mowbray: you mean competition?
    Zen Arado: ah yes slipped there
    Freud Jungsten: I freely admit my AV is much better looking than me....
    Inna Kanto: if anyone can have a beautiful avi why bother and have an ugly one?
    Bruce Mowbray laughs.
    Zen Arado: exactly
    Inna Kanto: it would just be a provocation
    Inna Kanto: not a status
    Freud Jungsten: If I could find a cheap skin that looked more like me I would take it.
    Inna Kanto: like the real you?
    Freud Jungsten: Yes.
    Inna Kanto: then why live a second life>
    Freud Jungsten: I try and make my AV as close to me RL as I can.
    Calvino Rabeni: One of these days, people may get over the idea that a pixel puppet is better looking than a real flesh and blood person
    Zen Arado: you haven't seen the real me Cal :)
    Bruce Mowbray: we can hope, Cal.
    Freud Jungsten: Pixel puppet.. I like that term.
    Zen Arado: I'll go before the bell
    Zen Arado: bye all
    Inna Kanto: bye
    Bruce Mowbray: Bye, Zen.
    Freud Jungsten: lol.. fun
    Bruce Mowbray: Time to grab some grub.
    Bruce Mowbray: Thanks to you both for an interesting afternoon.
    Freud Jungsten: Take care
    Calvino Rabeni: YW Bruce
    Bruce Mowbray: Thank you to, Inna.
    Inna Kanto: take care
    Bruce Mowbray: sry - didn't see you in my viewer and thought you'd already gone.
    Freud Jungsten: Was an interesting topic.
    Calvino Rabeni: one with substance yes
    Inna Kanto: Freud you are Cherokee?
    Freud Jungsten: Mostly.
    Inna Kanto: you meet here and chat?
    Inna Kanto: this was my first time
    Freud Jungsten: Typical Oklahoman really.
    Freud Jungsten: Yes.... four times a day.
    Freud Jungsten: on the 7s and 1s.
    Inna Kanto: i feel emotioned to meet a native American
    Inna Kanto: i come from Greece
    Freud Jungsten: Woudl love to go to Greece some day.
    Inna Kanto: another old people of the world
    Freud Jungsten: Sounds like such an interesting place.
    Freud Jungsten: And great food as well.
    Inna Kanto: yes its true
    Freud Jungsten: Love going to the Greek Orthodox church festivals here.
    Inna Kanto: if you come i' ll be your guide
    Freud Jungsten: OH thank you.
    Freud Jungsten: If you come to Oklahoma, I can show you around as well... smiles
    Inna Kanto: thank you
    Inna Kanto: i will someday for sure
    Inna Kanto: may i add you to my friends?
    Freud Jungsten: Please.
    Freud Jungsten: Really not much to see around here though...
    Freud Jungsten: Brad Pitt is from here though.... lol
    Inna Kanto: lol
    Inna Kanto: i want to meet people - natives from Oklahoma
    Inna Kanto: Brad Pitt would be sight seeing
    Freud Jungsten: There are Native Americans from all over the country though.
    Inna Kanto: you are the first i've met
    Freud Jungsten: Just a lot are concentrated here becuase of the forced removals.
    Inna Kanto: so
    Inna Kanto: i see
    Freud Jungsten: Ok... going to go do that RL thing for a bit.
    Freud Jungsten: Thanks for the chat.
    Inna Kanto: yes me too
    Calvino Rabeni: The good life
    Inna Kanto: thank you too
    Freud Jungsten: Hope to see you soon
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye, thanks for the conversation
    Freud Jungsten: do na da go hv i
    Inna Kanto: hope to see you soon
    Inna Kanto: i ll look for you
    Calvino Rabeni: Thanks for stopping by, Inna
    Inna Kanto: you're welcome
    Inna Kanto: it was my pleasure
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm getting some outside distractions, so I think I'l go too
    Calvino Rabeni: Hope to see you again, take care
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Inna Kanto: you will
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye for now
    Inna Kanto: thank you
    Inna Kanto: bye bye'

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