2011.01.16 07:00 - Aware is a Tricky Word to Pin Down

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Adams Dubrovna. The comments are by Adams Dubrovna.

    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey lugh
    Lugh Fehr: heyya yakuzza how ou dooing
    Yakuzza Lethecus: it´s fine today, thx
    Yakuzza Lethecus: keeping myself active to not get stuck in varous thoughts
    Yakuzza Lethecus: at least until now :P
    Lugh Fehr: good good :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey adams
    Lugh Fehr: he adms
    Adams Dubrovna: Hello Lugh and Yak :)
    Adams Dubrovna: Lugh have you been here before?
    Lugh Fehr: yup tup :)
    Adams Dubrovna: nice to meet you :)
    Lugh Fehr: nice to meet you too :)
    Adams Dubrovna: We have company here fhis morning and I am going to have to leave you
    Adams Dubrovna: but I have claimed the log
    Lugh Fehr: byebye adams
    Adams Dubrovna: You have such an interesting avatar Lugh :)
    Adams Dubrovna: Hello Arch and Alfred :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey alf
    Lugh Fehr: i am ramarat true king of eygipt
    Lugh Fehr: hey alf
    Lugh Fehr: hehhe
    Alfred Kelberry: hey! :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hi arch
    Lugh Fehr: hey arcxh
    Adams Dubrovna: Does Mubarak know?
    Alfred Kelberry: lugh, you have some fancy avs :)
    Lugh Fehr: hehehe tnx
    Alfred Kelberry: is it a talking stick in your hands?
    Adams Dubrovna: Alfred and Arch, we have company here and I am going to have to go bbut I have claimed the log
    Lugh Fehr: its called a staff but it tells pretty great jokes
    Alfred Kelberry: ok, adams. enjoy your day! :)
    Archmage Atlantis: ok, Adams
    Adams Dubrovna: Just to be on the safe side I will leave my avatar
    Alfred Kelberry: lugh, ok, tell us one :)
    Adams Dubrovna: bye for now
    Lugh Fehr: Why don't aliens eat clowns. Because they taste funny.
    Lugh Fehr: :D
    Archmage Atlantis: A Friend gave me a Tutmoses outfit.......for a party she had when she and her partner rebuilt a pyramid here in sl
    Alfred Kelberry: :)
    Alfred Kelberry: never seen you in it, archy :)
    Lugh Fehr: coool
    Archmage Atlantis: I never wear it, alfred......but this am seems to call for it
    Alfred Kelberry: yes, please!
    Alfred Kelberry: oh, impressive :)
    Lugh Fehr: lets split eygipt i call north
    Archmage Atlantis: I did not chose it, it was chosen for me
    Alfred Kelberry: it looks like a theme session on ancient egypt :)
    Archmage Atlantis: Fine, and I will take the rest of the world, the planets, and the sun
    Lugh Fehr: oki fine whit me
    Archmage Atlantis: Throw in a galaxy, we could have a deal
    Archmage Atlantis: done
    Lugh Fehr: do you thinck televition make people violent?
    Archmage Atlantis: No, ppl are violent all by themselves
    Lugh Fehr: but do media has any influence
    Alfred Kelberry: everyone who's seen war is a proponent on non-violence
    Archmage Atlantis: Maybe on the target of the violence, but not on the existence of violence
    Alfred Kelberry: can't get more influence than that
    Lugh Fehr: becouse my point is if media have an influence could you design a media to design your self
    Archmage Atlantis: Two responses......Alfred, I don't understand your comment......Lugh, no, again the violence and the design for violence is within us already
    Lugh Fehr: like when a dog hears a bell just befor dinner for a while then he would get hungry when he heres the bell whitout food could we do the same to ourselfs to control our personalaty
    Lugh Fehr: why are some people moor vilont then others?
    Archmage Atlantis: Lugh, not in any meaningful way
    Lugh Fehr: and some situations moor liky to turn vilont
    Lugh Fehr: some poeple can't kill a fly whitout great effort and some kill men whit alot less effort
    Archmage Atlantis: Some are more genetically natured toward violence, some have learned that violence is the answer that works for them........and ppl follow crowds
    Lugh Fehr: what about happines can we make somthing like the bell whit the dog evry time we are extremly happy we ring a bell then after a while when we are sad and ring the bell would we become happy like whit the hunger of the dog
    Lugh Fehr: and we could use a certain scent and taste and coler
    Lugh Fehr: would that work like magick
    Lugh Fehr: i thinck i can mabey i just need to try it out
    Archmage Atlantis: There are other forums for these questions, Lugh, this is a place of calm
    Archmage Atlantis: They are important questions, and should be asked
    Archmage Atlantis: Hello, Bruce.....Adams has the log, but had to leave the coversation
    Lugh Fehr: hey bruce
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey bruce
    Bruce Mowbray: OK -- sry to be late -- my every day morning meditation at Peacemakers, you know.
    Bruce Mowbray: Good day, Boxy, Arch, Lugh (looking great, Lugh!), Yaku, and Adams.
    Archmage Atlantis: It has taken me a long time to understand and let go of the idea of being late
    Archmage Atlantis: To be late means to not follow another's timetable, even if that other is a group
    Bruce Mowbray: Well, sometimes a session will get started on a great topic right at the beginning - so when I enter 20 minutes after the start, it feels "late" - and I . . . you know, sort of feel guilty.
    Bruce Mowbray hides head in shame and begs forgiveness.
    Archmage Atlantis: That is a learned part of us as children.....to feel guilty
    Archmage Atlantis: As is shame
    Bruce Mowbray: Oh yeah, Arch -- and I was a great learner of all that crap -- (in order to survive).
    Archmage Atlantis: understand
    Bruce Mowbray: Now the major task is to forgive myself for having to become "false" in order to make it through childhood.
    Lugh Fehr: that was my point now that we know that can we relearn another way or is that a one time thing
    Bruce Mowbray: For me, spiritual practice is all about "learning another way."
    Bruce Mowbray did not hear Lugh's original point because he arrived late. . .
    Archmage Atlantis: Lugh, would you mind summarizing for Bruce
    Archmage Atlantis: dang, into the silent pause again
    Bruce Mowbray: [after the pause. . . ;-) ]
    stevenaia Michinaga: morning
    Eliza Madrigal: Morning :)
    Archmage Atlantis: good morning to you
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey eliza,steven
    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Eliza and Stevenaia.
    Lugh Fehr: the problem i have whit spiritualaty for that pourpus is the way youve been programed the first time was done in a so moor efficiant way that its very hard to do it whit spiritualaty so i say i should look to the way i was programed the first time and use that way to reprogram
    Lugh Fehr: and thats also my point
    Bruce Mowbray: Mmmm . . . a fascinating idea, Lugh.
    Bruce Mowbray: I think that is consistent with much of present-day psychological methods, also.
    Bruce Mowbray: . . . but can you offer an example of something that might be re-learned. . . ?
    Alfred Kelberry: meep!
    Bruce Mowbray: wb, Boxy.
    stevenaia Michinaga: hi boxy
    Alfred Kelberry: aww, what a lovely neighbor i have :)
    Alfred Kelberry: hey :)
    Lugh Fehr: i thinck maby it could be done like ring a bell evry time you feel happy after a while when your sad you ring it and your happy now this will have to be reacharched whit ringing it when happy moor then when sad otherwise its power will turn the other way round
    Alfred Kelberry: pavlov's dog? :)
    Lugh Fehr: yup could be i dont remember the name dough
    Eliza Madrigal: so go back to the earliest conditioning you can remember there being and start there?
    Alfred Kelberry: http://gettingstronger.org/wp-conten...avlovs-dog.jpg
    Alfred Kelberry: :)
    Archmage Atlantis: Yes, to my memory Lugh referenced that in the beginning
    Lugh Fehr: it would be a sort of magick mabey if used profecanaly it would be a good way to be happy alot
    Bruce Mowbray: Ha! That's a cool cartoon!
    Eliza Madrigal: hahaha
    Lugh Fehr: heheee
    Bruce Mowbray: One meditation practice suggests that we gentle "hold" whatever rises - pleasant or not - and stay with it until it dissipates. . .
    Bruce Mowbray: I have found that VERY helpful when the old monsters from childhood come up. . .
    Archmage Atlantis: Ok, I admit that my cat, fish, and birds do train me
    Alfred Kelberry: bruce, maybe holding it is how you can fight fear
    Eliza Madrigal: fear might be a good friend
    Bruce Mowbray: Hold whatever rises - without judgment or reactiveness - is how I can let those things go -- since I no longer need them.
    Alfred Kelberry: hmm
    Alfred Kelberry: what if you do?
    Bruce Mowbray: what if I do need them, Boxy?
    Alfred Kelberry: yes
    Archmage Atlantis: Back to Lugh's original commets......how do we get rid of them.....we don't
    Bruce Mowbray: then I let myself keep them. . .
    Archmage Atlantis: they are a part of us forever
    Bruce Mowbray: yes, Arch, I'd agree that they are always "in there," but we no longer need to be dominated by our reactiveness.
    Archmage Atlantis: agree
    Bruce Mowbray: it is just "in there" and we can watch it rising and falling.
    Eliza Madrigal: reactive vs responsive? is that gentleness?
    Bruce Mowbray: sort of like, awareness of awareness. . .
    Bruce Mowbray: Reactive vs aware, is how I'd put it, Eliza.
    Alfred Kelberry: so we basically change our perception?
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: the gentleness seems to allow us no to HAVE to react.
    Archmage Atlantis: there are circles in our circles in our circles - old Carol Burnett sketch
    Bruce Mowbray thinks he should be using "I" instead of "we" in ALL of this.
    Alfred Kelberry: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: aware is a tricky word to pin down, it seems to defy that
    Bruce Mowbray: example: suppose some event triggers a reaction that served me well in childhood but is no longer appropriate for an adut. . .
    Bruce Mowbray: something like self-shaming - or putting myself down for not being "good" enough.
    Alfred Kelberry: *likes examples*
    Eliza Madrigal: nods
    Bruce Mowbray: in meditation I can observe that reaction, gentle hold it in consciousness (awareness)-
    Bruce Mowbray: and what I discover is that it dissipates.
    Archmage Atlantis: substitute useful for appropriate and I am withyou
    stevenaia Michinaga: some lessone are served by not needing to repeat them
    Bruce Mowbray: It no longer has the power over me (power to make me react) tyhat it once had.
    Bruce Mowbray: "useful" is better -- Thanks, Arch.
    Eliza Madrigal: yes why is that? is there something about doing that, that is more authentic or true or real or something... IS it about context/appropriateness?
    Bruce Mowbray: some reaction that once was useful but no longer is useful.
    Alfred Kelberry: appropriate is a tricky word
    Eliza Madrigal: yes :)
    Alfred Kelberry: meep!
    Bruce Mowbray: I suppose that Pavlov would call this practice "de-sensitization."
    Bruce Mowbray: but it's different, actually.
    Archmage Atlantis: I once had a friend who used "meep!" often
    Eliza Madrigal: to me it is like calling a bluff
    Alfred Kelberry: meep!
    Bruce Mowbray: It is allowing a reaction to be there - - without having to do ANYTHING with it our because of it (no more driven-ness). . .
    stevenaia Michinaga: shouldn't most things deserve a reaction at least once to gain the experiance to build upon
    Bruce Mowbray: and just gently watching it (awareness) -- no judgment.
    Bruce Mowbray: and then it dissipates (if it is no longer useful).
    Alfred Kelberry: stev, i think we all do initially
    Alfred Kelberry: but some reactions become persuasive
    Eliza Madrigal: well are there safe places to 'react', too? meaning, sometimes you just know it isn't useful... but other times there can be a play reacting... not as sticky
    Alfred Kelberry: eliza :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Alfred Kelberry: cute wording you have :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Agree, steve, but if you've been reacting like that for sixty years. . .. you already have polenty of experience to build upon.
    Bruce Mowbray: plenty*
    Eliza Madrigal: ty Alf :)
    Eliza Madrigal: hm, nods
    Alfred Kelberry: reactive loop :)
    Archmage Atlantis: years to learn, yet some of us only learn by loss
    Lugh Fehr: i thinck most of use are wiser then the programing
    Bruce Mowbray: I would not call "play" reacting actually "reactiveness. Play is another spiritual method, I think - and it might have the same result as the method I've already described.
    Bruce Mowbray: dissipation of the reactiveness.
    Alfred Kelberry: arch, i think most do it this way
    Archmage Atlantis: Or Mumbo Jumbo
    Alfred Kelberry: meep!
    Eliza Madrigal: yes I see Bruce
    Bruce Mowbray: For me, one clear sign that I am stuck in a reactive pattern is that I am unable to play with it.
    Bruce Mowbray: or laugh about it.
    Archmage Atlantis: I have to go, I need to listen to the chant at home before the next meetin
    Bruce Mowbray: Be well, Arch.
    Lugh Fehr: byebye
    Bruce Mowbray: See you in a few minutes.
    Eliza Madrigal: oh, yes, loss of humor seems a clear sign!
    Lugh Fehr: but wher is it coming from?
    Eliza Madrigal: I had a therapist who told me once that I used humor to deflect, so for me that was a reactive pattern...
    Eliza Madrigal: so many subtle layers
    Bruce Mowbray: For me, loss of humor about something means that it has me in its grasp - and I am stuck there -- rather than me being able to hold it gently. . .
    Bruce Mowbray: so, what is "holding" what?
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    Eliza Madrigal: what a note to end at, heh, have to go...
    Lugh Fehr: byebye
    Bruce Mowbray: Me too. May all be well and happy today.
    Lugh Fehr: roll roll roll your bout geantly down the stream merrly merrly merrrly lif is but a dream
    Alfred Kelberry: ooops
    Alfred Kelberry: they're gone
    stevenaia Michinaga: did you close your eyes?
    Alfred Kelberry: for a minute :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: or 90 seconds :)
    Alfred Kelberry: something like that :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus sneaks over to the meeting
    stevenaia Michinaga: I should be going too
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye lugh
    Alfred Kelberry: *holds stev's hand*
    Lugh Fehr: byebye yakkuu
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    Alfred Kelberry: :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: I can walk slowly if your legs are short
    Alfred Kelberry: enjoy your day, stev :)
    Alfred Kelberry: i can move them fast :)
    Alfred Kelberry: no worries
    Alfred Kelberry: ok, bye lugh

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