2011.01.21 06:00 - Time Session: Letting ourselves be seen in 3D

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Bleu Oleander.  This was part of the special sessions that are based on the book by Pema Pera,  "Exploring the Magic of Time."  As a review of chapters 3,4,5 and 6, the attendees picked out the idea of "letting ourselves be seen" to review and discuss.   Attending were Bleu, Eliza, Maxine, Zen, Bruce, Darren, Riddle, Vector, Fefonz and quendrida.


    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bleu :))
    Bleu Oleander: hey Eliza :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I can't stay long today but nice to be here for a little while
    Bleu Oleander: yes
    Bleu Oleander: on your way to the retreat?
    Eliza Madrigal: thanks for taking the session...
    Bleu Oleander: sure
    Eliza Madrigal: Today I'm seeing a friend in the morning
    Eliza Madrigal: tomorrow I fly to retreat :)
    Eliza Madrigal: (yay)
    Bleu Oleander: looking forward to hearing about it
    Eliza Madrigal: it should be interesting... maybe some nice music
    Bleu Oleander: i've never been to New Orleans
    Eliza Madrigal: nor have I, and it is so close!
    Bleu Oleander: just noticed the fish :)
    Eliza Madrigal: cute huh? :)

    Eliza Madrigal: Hi, Maxine :)
    Maxine Walden: hi, Eliza, Bleu
    Bleu Oleander: hi Maxine :)
    Eliza Madrigal: in the background my son is reading a book about rituals to become a man... one entails being stung by thousands of bull ants....
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bruce
    Bleu Oleander: oh my
    Bleu Oleander: hi Bruce
    Bruce Mowbray: Hi, folks. Yeah, "manhood" is a tough nut, as they say.
    Maxine Walden: hi, Bruce, nice tartan outfit
    Eliza Madrigal: The book title is "You might be a zombie and other bad news"
    Bruce Mowbray: TY, Maxine.
    Bleu Oleander: ha!
    Eliza Madrigal: hehe
    Maxine Walden: doa?
    Maxine Walden: (zombie: dead on arrival)
    Eliza Madrigal: ah :D
    Eliza Madrigal: yes
    Bruce Mowbray: Just the thing to get young self-confidence up. . . . Hmmm.. (runs for more coffee)
    Maxine Walden: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I have odd children, another favorite book is "100 ways to die in the outdoors"

    I make a suggestion for today's session:

    Bleu Oleander: what do you think of the idea to take a point from each chapter in each quarter of this session ..... which is a review of four chapters?

    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zen :)
    Eliza Madrigal: nice idea Bleu
    Maxine Walden: interesting thought, bleu
    Zen Arado: Hi Eliza:)
    Zen Arado: Hi all
    Maxine Walden: hi, zen
    Bleu Oleander: chapters 3, 4, 5, 6
    Bleu Oleander: hi Zen
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Darren

    Bleu Oleander: from chapter 3, how about "letting yourself be seen?"

    Darren Islar: hi everyone :)
    Bleu Oleander: hi Darren
    Zen Arado: Hi Darren
    Zen Arado: could you post the paragraph Bleu?
    Maxine Walden: fine, bleu
    Zen Arado: ok I found it
    Zen Arado: What does it mean, to allow yourself to be seen? It can mean many things, and it may be best to just do this kind of exploration without any preset expectation or judgment as to what to expect, or even how this experiment should or could be done.
    Bleu Oleander: the exercise, "Let's just try to let ourselves be seen a bit more, and let's try to find some of what we habitually tend to hide."
    Zen Arado: how do we not allow ourselves to be seen?
    Bleu Oleander: we hide in many ways
    Eliza Madrigal: a million strategies
    Bleu Oleander: physically, we change our outward appearance to convey who we think we are
    Zen Arado: does it work?
    Eliza Madrigal: for a while :)
    Bleu Oleander: can we get away with that?
    Zen Arado: do we hied from ourselves too?
    Bleu Oleander: inwardly we tell ourselves the story we want to hear
    Zen Arado: hide *
    Eliza Madrigal: until we don't want to 'get away' and realize we never really could
    Eliza Madrigal nods @ Bleu
    Bleu Oleander: we are narrative seeking creatures :)
    Zen Arado: yes
    Eliza Madrigal: H Riddle :)
    Bleu Oleander: who is doing the "seeing" when we let ourselves be seen?
    Zen Arado: wonder how our inward impression matches the reality?
    Darren Islar: Hi Riddle
    Maxine Walden: hi, riddle
    Bruce Mowbray: Inwardly, we might identify with the adopted roles of the "self" so strongly that no other viewpoints other than the self's are recognized.
    Bleu Oleander: hi Riddle
    Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Riddle.
    Zen Arado: or is there a real 'me'
    Darren Islar: wow, some avatar
    Riddle Sideways not so quickly sneaks in
    Zen Arado: Hi iddle
    Zen Arado: Hi didle didle
    Zen Arado: agree Bruce
    Zen Arado: so we weaken....what?
    Zen Arado: admit we do't know ourselves?
    Bruce Mowbray: So - perhaps - we "drop" some of those roles. . . and let the outside world (non-self world) see us.
    Darren Islar: not knowing ourselves is the challenging part
    Eliza Madrigal: drop defenses...
    Bleu Oleander: are they looking?
    Zen Arado: allow ourselves to be....nothing in particular?
    Darren Islar: more challenging is it when there is no way to know ourselves :)
    Zen Arado: and not worry about that?

    Bruce Mowbray: I think that "letting oneself be seen" is still an exercise for the individual -- to make more feasible the eventualy awareness that there is actually NO self-other distinction except through our "ego roles" and in our "illusions."
    Eliza Madrigal: maybe be seen by the stories ... ask them where they are placing us... in telling us they'd have to expose their own placement :)
    Bruce Mowbray: All six of the paramitas are also exercises in overcoming self-other distinctions.
    Zen Arado: good points Bruce and Eliza
    Bruce Mowbray: Great idea, Eliza -- let our stories "see us."
    Darren Islar: maybe there is no self, but there are strong convictions and habits with which we can create means to communicate with the outside world and with ourselves
    Darren Islar: ?
    Bleu Oleander: notice our collective narratives
    Bruce Mowbray: seems to be the case, Leaping. . . and we get strongly identified with and "stuck" in those convictions.
    Darren Islar: to me personality is about communication, not about me (or at least should be, chuckles :))
    Bleu Oleander: we can get stuck in our collective stories
    Maxine Walden: Bleu, did you feel you were letting yourself be seen in your email questions, clarifications with Pema this week?
    Eliza Madrigal: every time we face a kind of contradiction there seems this wonderful confusion? like "What? I don't 'believe' just 'that'? I believe many things?"
    Darren Islar: but maybe we can make those convictions work for us, instead of we working for them, knowing that they are concepts and convictions and that they might change
    Eliza Madrigal: question ourselves... then not so solid... then keep going
    Zen Arado: our own story is so enthralling
    Bleu Oleander: hmmm, not exactly Maxine, more like I was search for understanding
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Vector :)
    Bleu Oleander: hi Vector :)
    Vector Marksman: hi
    Zen Arado: Hi Vector
    Darren Islar: hi Vector
    Maxine Walden: hi, Vector
    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Vector.
    Eliza Madrigal: Hey Fef
    Zen Arado: Hi Fef
    Vector Marksman: HI sorry to be late
    Darren Islar: hi Fef
    Riddle Sideways: Hi Vect and Fef
    Darren Islar: Fonz, I mean
    Bleu Oleander: we're talking about "letting ourselves be seen"
    Riddle Sideways: are we hiding behind avatars?
    Maxine Walden: ah, thanks.
    Fefonz Quan: Hi timers :)
    Bruce Mowbray: We can also identify so strongly with our preferences, likes, opinions, etc. that we can't see ourselves through our opinionated-ness.
    Bleu Oleander: hi Fef
    Darren Islar: or showing ourselves :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :) there's the question
    Eliza Madrigal: the 'wall' or gap, in some ways
    Zen Arado: showing edited versions of ourselves
    Zen Arado: afraid of exposing weaknesses
    Bruce Mowbray: I was showing a bit too much of myself yesterday at a meditation session (the kilt, you know) so someone asked me to put on long pants.
    Eliza Madrigal: :))
    Maxine Walden: :)
    Bleu Oleander: :)
    Darren Islar: :)
    Vector Marksman: :)
    Fefonz Quan: (thanks Darren)
    Darren Islar: I think it looks swell :)
    Darren Islar: yw
    Zen Arado: what do Scotsmen wear under their kilts?
    Bruce Mowbray: ty - - - but is it really ME?
    Eliza Madrigal: another person might have just changed their angle
    Eliza Madrigal: we're all so different
    Darren Islar: maybe you should ask yourself: what does this tell me about me?
    Bruce Mowbray: My understanding is that Scots wear nothing at all under their kilts -- . . . but maybe that's just another way of "hiding"
    Zen Arado: are we being truly authentic atm?
    Riddle Sideways: is easier in SL to know these are madeup looks. So, showing ourselves is in the stories we show
    Zen Arado: am I? I should ask
    Bleu Oleander: sounds like "art of being self" project material
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Darren Islar: :)
    Maxine Walden: Zen, are you asking 'authentic at this very moment?'
    Eliza Madrigal: "does the canvas reveal or conceal?"
    Zen Arado: probably not
    Zen Arado: trying to impress others
    Bleu Oleander: both I think Eliza
    Maxine Walden: :)
    Zen Arado: make you all like me
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Zen, you don't need to, we've all decided to like you already
    Zen Arado: create a good opinion of myself
    Eliza Madrigal: :))
    Darren Islar: funny, because at the moment Zen I only see your glasses (probably my camera-angle) :-)
    Zen Arado: have to mantain that too :)
    Maxine Walden: agree, zen, think our deep worry about not being worthy may trigger ongoing hiddenness
    Zen Arado: I'm hiding
    Bleu Oleander: no-Zen
    Zen Arado: we are not worthy :)
    Eliza Madrigal: mmmm
    Darren Islar: ah.....ok...... and a belt :)
    Bleu Oleander: worthy?
    Eliza Madrigal: I apologize for leaving early. Thanks again Bruce, for taking my session after this one.
    Zen Arado: hmmm....of what?
    Darren Islar: bye Eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: (no need to say byes) /me waves
    Bleu Oleander: bye Eliza, have a good retreat
    Zen Arado: bye Eliza
    Vector Marksman: bye
    Zen Arado: have a good time if don't see
    Bruce Mowbray: Bye, Eliza -- talk with you later.
    Bleu Oleander: is anyone here going to the retreat?
    Vector Marksman: I don't know about it...

    Fefonz Quan: and there's also the point of letting ourself been seeing by urselves
    Bleu Oleander: in New Orleans
    Bruce Mowbray: in New Orleans . . . . not I.
    Zen Arado: maybe 'ourself' is the main person e want to impress
    Maxine Walden: think so, zen
    Fefonz Quan: I just focused on riddle's star core, it's a psychadelic experience
    Darren Islar: nice one Zen :)
    Bleu Oleander: maybe it's the only person who is impressed
    Maxine Walden: perhaps to overcome lingering doubts
    Zen Arado: we use others to bolster that ego
    Darren Islar: :) Bleu
    Zen Arado: could be Bleu :)
    Fefonz Quan: that's why it's called self-impression
    Riddle Sideways: :) fef
    Bleu Oleander: :)
    Zen Arado: but if we are self content we need thew reassurance of others
    Zen Arado: we don't need I mean
    Vector Marksman: we are not different than other humans in that respect
    Fefonz Quan: I am familiar with an interesting exercise regarding that - look at yourself for 5 minutes at the mirror
    Fefonz Quan: it's seeing and been seeing at the same time
    Bleu Oleander: let's try that at the next pause
    Zen Arado: that might reinforce the sense of self?
    Fefonz Quan: but we need a mirror - or should we look at our avatar faces?
    Bruce Mowbray wonders why his mirror is so old and ugly looking.
    Maxine Walden: :),
    Bleu Oleander: get a mirror and look at ourselves
    Darren Islar: :) Bruce, good question :)
    Zen Arado: mine is too :(
    Vector Marksman: I suppose the whole avatar identity thing makes the persona / ego identification more obvious
    Bruce Mowbray: :(
    Bleu Oleander: say more Vector
    Riddle Sideways: do not get hung up on physical image in mirror
    Vector Marksman: Well, I only know all of you via your avatar/personas and vice versa
    Fefonz Quan: just bumped into a song regarding brices question:
    Zen Arado: I prefer the 'headless way' idea
    Fefonz Quan: The Mirror Edmund Burke, 1729 - 1797, Irish Philosopher. I look in the mirrorAnd what do I see?A strange looking personThat cannot be me. For I am much youngerAnd not nearly so fatAs that face in the mirrorI am looking at. Oh, where are the mirrorsThat I used to knowLike the ones which wereMade thirty years ago? Now all things have changedAnd I’m sure you’ll agreeMirrors are not as goodAs they used to be. So never be concerned,If wrinkles appearFor one thing I’ve learnedWhich is very clear, Should your complexionBe less than perfection,It is really the mirrorThat needs correction
    Vector Marksman: And this is a kind of mini model of any new group I go into
    Zen Arado: just a vast space up there
    Zen Arado: nice Victor :)
    Maxine Walden: :), fef
    Riddle Sideways: thanks fef
    Zen Arado: hate these wrinkly mirrors
    Vector Marksman: I think we seek more connection than that
    Bleu Oleander: hi quen
    Zen Arado: hi Qiendidra
    Fefonz Quan: when i read that, i thought that mirrors of course can't show us who we really are
    quendrida Skytower: hello everybody
    Vector Marksman: hi quen
    Darren Islar: nice Bruce :)
    Fefonz Quan: hello quendrida
    Bleu Oleander: have you been here before quen?
    Darren Islar: hi Quen
    Zen Arado: better to use our direct experience of wht is there
    quendrida Skytower: sorry cant stay long off to collect my son very soon so if i dissapear without a goodbye its cause im rushing off to cathc the bus
    quendrida Skytower: yes i have been here before
    Bruce Mowbray: wb, Quen.
    Bleu Oleander: ty, nice to see you
    Riddle Sideways: Hi/bye Quen
    quendrida Skytower: ty
    Bruce Mowbray finds it interesting to us two mirrors to see the back of his own head.
    Bruce Mowbray: use*
    Zen Arado: your mic is open Quen
    Bruce Mowbray: (letting the back of my head be seen. . . .)
    quendrida Skytower: hello zen / maxine/bleu/bruce/darren/riddle/vector/fefonz
    Darren Islar: I think it is a nice exercise when you start looking in a mirror and instead of seeing the same things, just wonder......
    quendrida Skytower: i dont like mirrors at all
    Zen Arado: but we can't be objective about our appearance can we?
    Darren Islar: it might show us that we don't look the way we think we do, that's interesting
    Darren Islar: wy should we want to be objective?
    Zen Arado: so do we see what's really there?
    quendrida Skytower: how do we know what we see in the mirror is like how others see us anyway
    Bleu Oleander: do we ever see what's really there?
    Riddle Sideways: the glass mirror image is reversed, remember
    Zen Arado: exactly - so why do we worry so much?
    Bleu Oleander: who's worried?
    quendrida Skytower: the mirrror is distorting due to the reversal
    Bruce Mowbray: Can we appreciate the presence of the appearance of ourselves?
    Darren Islar: To me it is not relevant if I see what is really there, I can't work with that concept, I can work though with what I see, or think I see and wonder about it
    Maxine Walden: (will need to slip out at the next paust)
    Bleu Oleander: nice to see you today Maxine :)
    Maxine Walden: pause
    Riddle Sideways: Being presents us
    quendrida Skytower: bye maxine
    Darren Islar: bye Maxine
    Vector Marksman: bye
    Riddle Sideways: bye Max
    Maxine Walden: bye everyone, nice discussion
    Zen Arado: it is only 2 dimensiional image too
    Fefonz Quan: bye maxine
    Zen Arado: bye Maxine

    Fefonz Quan: in one minue we'll try
    quendrida Skytower: ill be back got to go now
    Darren Islar: well Zen, I'm afraid if I start trying to find the real me, I will never find it, I like to start at what I see and start wondering about it
    Zen Arado: so our direct experience is really better?
    Riddle Sideways: seen/seeing oscillated so quickly
    Fefonz Quan: well i just tried the mirror thing with a cd disk
    Bleu Oleander: I did too
    Darren Islar: I think so, but with the notification not to take that too seriously
    Bruce Mowbray: How did that work for you?
    Fefonz Quan: it has a hole in te middle
    Bleu Oleander: :) Fef
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    Darren Islar: :)
    Bleu Oleander: "room for improvement"
    Bruce Mowbray: and a label on the other side?
    Fefonz Quan: so towardd the end, each eye saw a hole where the other eye is, looking at SL through it, in the middle of my face image
    Riddle Sideways: :)
    Darren Islar: hehehe
    Zen Arado: we have 7 holes in our heads
    Bruce Mowbray: only seven?
    Darren Islar: but not in our image Zen :)
    Fefonz Quan: it was a little troubling experience
    Zen Arado: mirrors are about knowing
    Zen Arado: we translate what we see
    Zen Arado: I might be getting this headless way thing
    Darren Islar: maybe we should have a closer look at the translation :)
    Fefonz Quan: yes, we may find it's all translation
    Riddle Sideways: or lack of sleep
    Zen Arado: Hi Freud
    Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Freud.
    Darren Islar: hi Freud
    Freud Jungsten: Heya
    Fefonz Quan: Hi Freud
    Riddle Sideways: Hi Freu
    Darren Islar: adn Jung :)
    Freud Jungsten: Been trying to sit for about two mins... frowns
    Bleu Oleander: hi Freud
    Freud Jungsten: osiyo
    Bruce Mowbray: Is the mirror a sort of trap? -- or is it a liberator - by enabling us to get "distance" from our usual self-image.
    Bruce Mowbray: ??
    Fefonz Quan: i find it can be both, on different levels
    Riddle Sideways: both
    Zen Arado: it can be a trap if we think it is who we are
    Fefonz Quan: it open some window to see ourselves - which we sometimes want to escape from.
    Darren Islar: I think anything and any approach can be both
    Zen Arado: I think
    Fefonz Quan: Yet, believeing that it shows the real stuff is a dangerous trap
    Fefonz Quan: opens*
    Riddle Sideways: :) zen
    Vector Marksman: depends on our intentions
    Bruce Mowbray recalls that Europe went hundreds of years without mirrors (through the Middle Ages). . . then they appered again in the Renaissance.
    Darren Islar start to feel like a potato in a bag :)
    Darren Islar: right Vector
    Zen Arado: starting to think it would be good not to have morrors again
    Vector Marksman: a mirror that can see our intentions would be good
    Darren Islar: it is not the mirror
    Fefonz Quan: in a way, the 'translation' we see is a mirror to our soul - better than the viaula one
    Zen Arado: I would have a better self image
    Bruce Mowbray: Now we have mirrors in cell phones --
    Fefonz Quan: visual*
    Zen Arado: funny how we can't stop oursleves seeing a 3d image in a mirror
    Fefonz Quan: I think that seeing the mirror as another appearance - and appreciate it - can be an interesting direction
    Fefonz Quan: 3d Zen?
    Bleu Oleander: mirror as another appearance :)
    Zen Arado: yes - we see three dimensions even tho it is really 2 D
    Riddle Sideways: and appreciate it
    Vector Marksman: yes..just another appearance
    Fefonz Quan: ah, ok, even SL catches us hard as 3d
    Zen Arado: yes
    Zen Arado: all appearances
    Darren Islar: even better Zen, our brains are leaving gaps in the image, another part of the brain is filling that up by showing us what he thinks we see
    Zen Arado: yes Darren
    Vector Marksman: we fill in the balandks
    Vector Marksman: blanks
    Zen Arado: weird aren't we ?
    Riddle Sideways: the Presentations
    Vector Marksman: projections
    Fefonz Quan: yes, our brain, in the real visual plane, feels the holes, not like with the CD :)
    Zen Arado: we live in illusions

    Bleu Oleander: perhaps we need special 3D glasses :)

    Zen Arado: :)
    Zen Arado: that might happen in SL
    Bruce Mowbray recalls Indra's Net in which everything mirrors everything else.
    Riddle Sideways: too late we already have the special glasses on


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