2011.04.01 06:00 - Time Session - trying many ways including being here

    The Guardian for this meeting was Bleu Oleander. The comments are by Bleu Oleander.




    Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Queen Eliza!
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bruce:)) dapper as usual
    Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Xirana.
    Xirana Oximoxi: hi Eliza.. you too have thhe price!!!!!
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Xirana :))
    Xirana Oximoxi: hi:)
    Xirana Oximoxi: is it a session now?
    Eliza Madrigal: yes.... I admit to asking for additional clues when stuck at a certain point, too :)) so don't feel bad
    Xirana Oximoxi: ok :)

    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Maxine, Pema :))
    Maxine Walden: hi, Eliza, Bruce, Xirana, Pema
    Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Pema, Maxine!
    Pema Pera: morning, Maxine, Bruce, Eliza!
    Eliza Madrigal: Morning Pema, And Happy PaB Birthday
    Eliza Madrigal: and to you too Maxine :)
    Eliza Madrigal: And Bruce... and....
    Pema Pera: yes, happy birthday indeed, three years, amazing . . .
    Maxine Walden: yes, Happy Birthday to PaB and to us
    Pema Pera: hi Bleu and Adams!
    Pema Pera: and hi Yaku!
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
    Bruce Mowbray: [`·.] APPLAUSE!! [.·´]
    Bruce Mowbray: [`·.] APPLAUSE!! [.·´]
    Bleu Oleander: hi all !
    Bruce Mowbray: [`·.] APPLAUSE!! [.·´]
    Eliza Madrigal: Good Morning Adams and Yaku and Bleu, Happy Birthday
    Maxine Walden: hi, Bleu! What a wonderful harolding trumpet
    Eliza Madrigal: hahah Bleu, Marvelous :D
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Adams Rubble: Hello Pema, maxine, Bruce, Eliza and Bleu and Happy Anniversary
    Bleu Oleander: sorry, couldn't resist :)
    Maxine Walden: yes, anniversary is the word, Adams
    Maxine Walden: :) bleu, glad you couldn't resist
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey xirana
    Eliza Madrigal likes that Bleu has no control
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Xirana :D
    Adams Rubble: Hello Zen and Xirana :)
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Bleu Oleander:  HA !! 
    Yakuzza Lethecus: zen :)
    Zen Arado: Hi all
    Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Xirana and Zen.
    Xirana Oximoxi: hi to all... I'll keep lokking later:)
    Bleu Oleander: hi Xirana
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zen :) Happy Birthday
    Zen Arado: ty
    Bleu Oleander: hi Zen
    Xirana Oximoxi: oh yes! happy Birthday Zen :)
    Pema Pera: thank you so much, Bleu!
    Zen Arado: what birthday?
    Bleu Oleander: yw!
    Eliza Madrigal: PaB :)
    Zen Arado: ah ok
    Xirana Oximoxi: ah :)..
    Zen Arado doean't want any more birthdays
    Pema Pera: hahaha
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: wow it just started pouring rain here today...april showers indeed
    Bleu Oleander: it's going to be 97 here today
    Eliza Madrigal: yikes
    Zen Arado: it's 15 here - so warm :)
    Bleu Oleander: :)
    Pema Pera: rain here as well, in New Jersey . . .
    Xirana Oximoxi: is it a special meeting at this time, today?
    Pema Pera: probably for Adams too
    Pema Pera: yes, very special, birthday included, Xirana!
    Pema Pera: every Friday at 6 am, we hold our Time sessions
    Xirana Oximoxi: ok! very nice!! :)
    Adams Rubble: /me's RLer is in a nice warm dry basement :)
    Pema Pera: to talk about a book that I am writing, and reports that many here, me included, write in response
    Bleu Oleander: just after this session is a special meeting Xirana
    Pema Pera: even more special, yes!
    Pema Pera: blast from the past :-)
    Xirana Oximoxi: yes, I was aware of the meeting with the founders later... but not of this also interesting subject now :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Pema Pera: thank you for the many lively reports again, this week, 

    Pema Pera: Where to start . . . . fascinating chart, Bleu, on Bleu Oleander: was facinated by it

    Xirana Oximoxi: ty for the links... :)
    Pema Pera: and yes, the question of needs is very real, and needs to be addressed (sorry for the pun)
    Maxine Walden: yes, comprehensive chart, bleu. Will keep it for reference
    Pema Pera: there are two levels, at least, in talking about needs
    Pema Pera: Hi Riddle!
    Bleu Oleander: thought it was interesting that one of the categories was Being
    Adams Rubble: Hello Riddle :)
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Xirana Oximoxi: hello Riddle:)
    Bleu Oleander: hi Riddle
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Riddle Happy PaB :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Yo, Riddle.
    Zen Arado: hi iddle
    Riddle Sideways: Hi everybody




    Zen Arado: Riddle
    Pema Pera: take the case where you are ill. On a direct, everyday level, of course a disease needs to be cured, we feel we need health -- and it is a very good idea to try to cure diseases, to be healthy.
    Pema Pera: At the same time, on a different level, a different realization can dawn: that we are complete already, as is, in sickness and in health -- that is the level that I was trying to point to.
    Pema Pera: Does that ring a bell, makes sense in any way at all?
    Zen Arado: yeh
    Zen Arado: strictly speakng there is no real need - something we absolutely must have
    Zen Arado: they are things we think we must have
    Bleu Oleander: I think the question for me is in using the word need .... maybe saying that we are complete works better for me than no needs
    Eliza Madrigal: that's an interesting distinction
    Bleu Oleander: also a distinction between material needs and spiritual needs
    Pema Pera: Bleu wrote in her report: It started to make no sense to me to speak about feeling no needs. For me, it's not so much "feeling no needs" -- it is good to feel our needs, we should not neglect or ignore them -- but it is good to be aware of an alternative
    Eliza Madrigal: apologies, brb
    Bleu Oleander: I could not see an alternative to my needs as feeling I had no needs
    Pema Pera: and the alternative includes a deemphasive on "I" or "we" -- as long as there is an "I" it has needs
    Pema Pera: so the challenge is not to try to feel no needs
    Zen Arado: the ultimate state of no needs is just allowing yourself to die?
    Pema Pera: that would be the ego trying to do a somersault
    Pema Pera: just allowing awareness to be without trying to put on an "I" perhaps, Zen?
    Adams Rubble: watching to see where these needs are arising from
    Pema Pera: the "I" feels both material and spiritual needs, but when dropping the "I" the whole picture of needs changes
    Pema Pera: so it's not a distinction between material and spiritual needs, I think
    Bleu Oleander: as I understand awareness, it is my consciousness ... without a concept of "i" i wouldn't know awareness
    Pema Pera: yes, Adams, and for whom
    Pema Pera: that's a central question, Bleu, why do you think that?
    Pema Pera: doesn't the concept "I" arise in awareness?
    Zen Arado: shifting back and forwards fro the needs of the self to the underlying presence underneath that has no needs?
    Bleu Oleander: I understand wearing "i" lightly
    Pema Pera: who is wearing the "I" lightly, do you think?
    Bleu Oleander: but once you get to that point, I don't understand pushing it to no "i"
    Pema Pera: not pushing, that would do no good
    Pema Pera: just watching and asking, why is watching the "I" ?
    Pema Pera: *who is
    Zen Arado: you still need a self or 'I' to function
    Bleu Oleander: the strategy my organism has for survival
    Pema Pera: says who, Zen?
    Bleu Oleander: I have a question
    Zen Arado: well - how do I get across the road then?
    Pema Pera: your concepts of "being an organism" also arise in awareness, Bleu
    Pema Pera: yes, Bleu?
    Bleu Oleander: when you speak of "no self" are you refering to all the time?
    Bleu Oleander: or just while meditating?
    Pema Pera: before time :-)
    Adams Rubble: hello o000o :)
    Pema Pera: and yes, whenever we pretend there is time, then too, still the self remains an empty concept
    Pema Pera: hi O
    Riddle Sideways: Hi oO
    Zen Arado: Hi Sam :)
    oO0Oo Resident: :) Hi
    Xirana Oximoxi: hi o000o :)
    Pema Pera: I'm not trying to be difficult, I'm trying to point to a totally different dimension/direction
    Bleu Oleander: what value does it have ?
    Bleu Oleander: if we can't get there?
    Pema Pera: although it is ofcourse understandable that we tend to project such insights back into our usual ways of thinking
    Pema Pera: we are there already, Bleu
    oO0Oo Resident: bb
    Pema Pera: can't get away from it :-)
    Pema Pera: but as long as we don't recognize, we *think* we have all kinds of needs and hence problems
    Pema Pera: making life more difficult for ourselves and for others
    Bleu Oleander: but ok, if we are already there, we still have to survive don't we?
    Pema Pera: but let me be more quiet, and give others a chance to respond to Bleu as well!
    Adams Rubble: brb
    Bleu Oleander: don't mean to dominate either, sorry
    Eliza Madrigal: no, its an interesting discussion Bleu, thanks
    Pema Pera: no, please, keep asking, Bleu!
    Pema Pera: you put your finger on the central point
    Riddle Sideways: yes, please contiinue
    Pema Pera: but I know that several others here can say what I am saying in different ways, better to have different angles!
    Bleu Oleander: referring to the chart I posted, it all seems to be positive .... good needs that help us survive
    Eliza Madrigal: for me it is a matter of knowing the 'needs' are open... so not saying they aren't drawn but that they aren't fixed/real as limitations... but describing is so hard...
    Eliza Madrigal: so I can see this full chart... but all of the labels open to one another and that points to all of them open...
    Bleu Oleander: exactly Eliza
    Zen Arado: I am considering the idea of moving from a deep stste of awareness or presence that you get in meditation but that you can't stay in if you want to lead a normal life - to then moving to a functional self as needed
    Eliza Madrigal: well, and then that is a kind of 'no'
    Bleu Oleander: how we as a culture satisfy those needs seems to matter

    Bleu Oleander: I don't see it as "no" .... seems positive to me
    Zen Arado: so you really need to embrace both states?
    Eliza Madrigal: I see no as positive...
    Bleu Oleander: classic statement Eliza ... perhaps it's then semantics?
    Doilliver Merlin: Hello to all of you :-)
    Aphrodite Macbain: morning all
    Aphrodite Macbain: or afternoon
    Zen Arado: Hi Dolliver, Aph
    Xirana Oximoxi: Hello Dollivert, Aphrodite:)
    Eliza Madrigal: considering... approach from needs, or from no needs...
    Adams Rubble is back and reading
    Bleu Oleander: I stayed on the beach of my mind a long time with this chapter and couldn't come to a no needs attitude
    Pema Pera: hi Aphrodite, and he Doilliver
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Adams Rubble: Hello Aphrodite and Dolliver :)
    Bleu Oleander: hi Aph
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hi zen adams xirana, pema. eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Aphrodite, Morning! Welcome Dolliver
    Aphrodite Macbain: bruce
    Pema Pera: hi Agatha!
    Agatha Macbeth peeksaround the board
    Adams Rubble: Hello Agatha :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Agatha :)
    Bleu Oleander: hey Aggers
    Zen Arado: Hi Aggers
    Agatha Macbeth: Hi all :)))
    Adams Rubble: There are many needs we think we have that are not reeds
    Maxine Walden: For me it is a matter of trying to appreciate that reality is far more vast than I can possibly embrace, and when I focus upon any thought/attribute/need/topic that I am also foreclosing. So resting in presence, ceasing to try to do/focus/think seems the best way to 'open' to the vastness of being which for me right now is close to appreciating/being aware of reality. All that is linked with 'I' or 'me' forecloses; but that it to be appreciated as well. And of course trying to find words is a probelm, because words, thoughts foreclose
    Adams Rubble: and yes maxine :)
    Bleu Oleander: yes Maxine
    Adams Rubble: *reeds=needs
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, thanks Maxine... imagining has something to do with 'pre' definitions as well
    Maxine Walden: so the wonderful dilemma, paradox of 'I' trying to rest beyond 'me'
    Bleu Oleander: agree Eliza
    Bleu Oleander: perhaps for me I've been conditoned to the word no as negative so am taking this concept in a closed context?
    Bleu Oleander: been training puppies too long :)
    Eliza Madrigal: /m giggles
    Maxine Walden: :)), bleu
    Agatha Macbeth: Can you please train Alf then Bleu? :p
    Bleu Oleander: :P
    Eliza Madrigal: the word 'need' as well... sounds like a negative
    Eliza Madrigal: but can be an open question
    Agatha Macbeth: Meep Meep ;P :p:P :p :P
    Bleu Oleander: need sounds neither negative nor positive to me
    Eliza Madrigal: :) I feel like we're talking about abstract paintings...hehe
    Zen Arado: it has an imperative quality
    Aphrodite Macbain: what exactly are we talking about?
    Bleu Oleander: sounds like needs should be identified and we should look at the ways we satisfy them as individuals and as a culture
    Agatha Macbeth: Hello 0
    Zen Arado: no choice about them
    oO0Oo Resident waves and smiles
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi O :)
    Bleu Oleander: hi Sam
    oO0Oo Resident: :)))
    Pema Pera: can anyone else put "no needs" in a different light?
    Pema Pera: Bruce?
    Pema Pera: Riddle?
    Pema Pera: others?
    Adams Rubble: maybe we just need to worry less about the needs and find out which needs we don;t need
    Zen Arado: somebody has to decide something is a need - it isn't certain
    Bruce Mowbray: Well, when one's identity is imagined to be separate from the universal field, then he imagines he has NEEDS. . .
    Adams Rubble: Hello Sun :)
    Bruce Mowbray: but when he and the fields are one thing, not separate, then he already "has" all needs met -- therefore there never were needs to begin with.
    Agatha Macbeth: Hello Sun
    Zen Arado: Hi Sun:)
    Eliza Madrigal: Good day Sunshine :)
    Doilliver Merlin: On my point of view, the best way would be to avoid to attach to much importance to the meaning of words and attach more importance to your internal feeling about life around you
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Sun
    Sunshine Vayandar: ;)
    oO0Oo Resident: Hi Sun :)
    Bleu Oleander: hi Sun :)
    Zen Arado: yes Dolliver
    Sunshine Vayandar: nice to see everyone ;)

    Agatha Macbeth nods
    Pema Pera: yes, Bruce, that's the direction I was trying to point in. There is a relative lessening of needs -- weaning of consumer culture, but that's not what I meant, the idea of "no needs" is far more radical
    Bleu Oleander: hi Storm
    Agatha Macbeth: Hi Stormy :)
    Pema Pera: hi Sun and Storm!
    Adams Rubble: Hello Storm :)
    Zen Arado: Hi Storm
    Agatha Macbeth: Sounds like a weather bulletin
    Maxine Walden: hi, Storm
    Storm Nordwind: Hello everyone!
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Storm :)
    Bleu Oleander: I can see why we need a couple of week to discuss this chapter Pema :)
    Pema Pera: hahaha @ Aggers
    Sunshine Vayandar: hi Storm ;)
    Adams Rubble: The needs do point to the self though
    Agatha Macbeth grins
    Eliza Madrigal nods Adams
    Pema Pera: yes, Adams, and that is probably related to your report too
    Storm Nordwind thought he would be 15 minutes early but looks like he was late!
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Agatha Macbeth: Me too :)
    Bleu Oleander: :)
    Zen Arado: we can't get away from some needs if we want to stay alive - the need to breathe for instance
    Pema Pera: the "no needs" idea is just crazy when seen from a "self" picture
    Xirana Oximoxi: hi Storm:)
    Eliza Madrigal: when one thinks in terms of needs there is a sense of having to 'get' something rather than having (enough) to give... but I don't think it is just a word flip
    Pema Pera: perhaps we've never been alive, Zen . . . .
    Maxine Walden: Storm, this the end of Time session, discussing book Pema is writing
    Bleu Oleander: so does one need to accept/understand "no self" first?
    Zen Arado: well that is the crux of the matter to me
    Pema Pera: it all goes together, Bleu
    Pema Pera: when realizing the emptiness of a dream, there is no recipe for first understanding this or that -- it all comes together
    Pema Pera: and you can keep dreaming, of course
    Pema Pera: when you realize it is a dream
    Zen Arado: lucid living
    Pema Pera: the two don't bite each other
    Pema Pera: YES, Zen!
    Pema Pera: we tend to reify everything -- but that is the seed of all problems
    Storm Nordwind very much likes the term "lucid living"!
    Pema Pera: we tend to make all that appears into things
    Eliza Madrigal nods nods
    Doilliver Merlin: In fact, is your suggestion of non needs related to a wish of freedom, which could be also considered as a need
    Zen Arado: it's in a book I am reading
    Pema Pera: not a wish, Doilliver
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Sun ... now seeing your crown (not that it wasn't there always) ;-)
    Pema Pera: hopes and fears are part of the self's world
    Sunshine Vayandar smiles at Liz ;)
    Bleu Oleander: what is the benefit of seeing ourselves as not part of the self's world?
    Adams Rubble: The self is very needy and makes us feel unfulfilled and unhappy
    Bleu Oleander: what if one doesn't feel unfulfilled and unhappy?
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Adams Rubble: congratulations then :)
    Bleu Oleander: :)
    Pema Pera: hi Caledonia!
    Sunshine Vayandar: ;)
    Adams Rubble: Hello Caledonia :)
    Zen Arado: if we don't care about living or dying we have no needs
    Bleu Oleander: hi Caledonia
    Sunshine Vayandar: hi Caledonia ;)
    Eliza Madrigal: there is also just that it adds a sense of separation... thinking about what Bruce said...
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Cal :))
    Zen Arado: but anything else and we do?
    Agatha Macbeth: Hiya Caledonia
    Zen Arado: Hi Cal
    Caledonia Heron: hi Pema :) hi Everyone :)
    Bleu Oleander: everything add a sense of separation
    Bleu Oleander: but some separations are necessary
    Pema Pera: if you're I'm curious, Bleu -- are you convinced that there are no other dimensions to reality than the one in which there are subject-object interactions, and separations?
    Bleu Oleander: not at all Pema
    Pema Pera: (not "If you're")
    Bleu Oleander: just practical considerations
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Wol :)
    Adams Rubble: Hello Wol :)
    Pema Pera: yes, but how will you explore the other dimensions?
    Agatha Macbeth: Howdy Wol :))
    Pema Pera: hi Wol
    Bleu Oleander: don't claim to know beyond
    Bleu Oleander: hi Wol
    Sunshine Vayandar: hi Wol ;)
    Pema Pera: but are you interested in exploring those alternatives?
    Zen Arado: HI Wol
    Bleu Oleander: trying to explore the best I can
    Pema Pera: yes, and I appreciate that!
    Bleu Oleander: but also recognizing my limitations as human
    Agatha Macbeth: Still plenty of empty cushions!
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Pema Pera: but at each turn of the road, you reinforce the usual picture
    Bleu Oleander: I don't see it as usual
    Bleu Oleander: i'm inspired by life everyday
    Bleu Oleander: and don't see it as ordinary
    Pema Pera: yes, and you express that beautifully
    Bleu Oleander: see it as open and vast
    Pema Pera: indeed!
    Eliza Madrigal: :) yes
    oO0Oo Resident smiles
    Pema Pera: but whenever we talk about going beyond subject and object, you seem to stop
    Pema Pera: to insist that there is no such possibility
    Bleu Oleander: I don't stop, I'm trying to see
    Pema Pera: how would you like to try to see?
    Pema Pera: with what approach?
    Bleu Oleander: trying many ways including being here :)
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Adams Rubble: :)

    Bleu Oleander: not limiting seeing to one approach
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi SHaroN :)
    Adams Rubble: Hello Sharon :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Shaz :))
    oO0Oo Resident: SSL :)
    Pema Pera: hmmm, the hour is up, perhaps we can take this up in the time email group
    Bleu Oleander: hi Sharon
    Eliza Madrigal: Wow, so nice to see everyone!
    Pema Pera: and/or continue next week!
    Sunshine Vayandar: hi Sharon ;)
    Agatha Macbeth: And Druth
    Zen Arado: Hi Sharon
    Adams Rubble: Hello Druth
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Druth :))
    Zen Arado: Hi Druth
    Pema Pera: thank you all for another fascinating session!
    Sunshine Vayandar: hey Druth ;)
    Bleu Oleander: hi Eos
    Pema Pera: and hello for all who enter
    Adams Rubble wondering if we can fill the joint
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Eos :))
    Zen Arado: Eos
    Bleu Oleander: hi Druth
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hehe Adams!
    Adams Rubble: Hello Eos :)
    Bleu Oleander: shall we switch over to the next session?

    on we went to a wonderful celebration of Play as Being ... the 3rd Anniversary...




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