2011.04.08 06:00 - And in fact there is no need for the idea "no need"

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Adams Rubble. The comments are by Adams Rubble.

    The title comes from a comment Pema made at the very end of the session. As with most time sessions, this is fun to read.

    2011 04 08 time session_016a.jpg

    Eliza Madrigal: Good Morning Maxine! :)
    Maxine Walden: hi, Eliza! How are you?
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, doing pretty well, thanks
    Eliza Madrigal: and how are you?
    Maxine Walden: Feels pretty early today for me
    Eliza Madrigal: :) you've seemed busy... no report... was looking :))
    Eliza Madrigal: unless you snuck it in there..hah
    Maxine Walden: yeah, just too many other things tugging at my sleeve, which I am sad about
    Eliza Madrigal: hopefully not sad tuggings...
    Maxine Walden: maybe I should look at the other reports...no, not sad tuggings, just persistent ones
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: okay... I'll run for coffee and give us a few minutes to catch up
    Xirana Oximoxi: hi Eliza, Maxine, Bruce:)
    Xirana Oximoxi: and Ppema:)
    Xirana Oximoxi: *Pema
    Pema Pera: hi everybody!
    Bruce Mowbray: Bonjour, Eliza, Xir, and Maxine.
    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Pema.
    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Adams.
    Maxine Walden: hi, Pema, Bruce, Xirana, Adams
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Xirana, Bruce, Pema, Adams & Sunshine (just got back to the computer)
    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Sinshine!
    Sunshine Vayandar: Hi Xir, Adams, Maxine ;)
    Xirana Oximoxi: hi Adams, Sun:)
    Sunshine Vayandar: ;))
    Bruce Mowbray: *Sunshine (sry)
    Sunshine Vayandar: hi Bruce
    Adams Rubble: Hello Everyone :)
    Sunshine Vayandar: and hi Eliza ;))
    Maxine Walden: reading the reports :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :))
    Sunshine Vayandar: hi Pema ;)
    Pema Pera: greetings to all :-)
    Sunshine Vayandar: is this seat free?
    Eliza Madrigal: heheh, hm...
    Adams Rubble made a special effort to get here on time today but telephone rang just as I arrived :)
    Eliza Madrigal: free as you want it to be
    Sunshine Vayandar: ;)
    Eliza Madrigal: :D
    Eliza Madrigal: oh, sorry Adams
    Pema Pera: hahaha
    Pema Pera: free to pick up the phone
    Pema Pera: and free to ignore :-)
    Adams Rubble puts phone on the floor and stomps on it :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :))
    Sunshine Vayandar: Pema is it ok if I take some time to get into the rhythm ....I am still getting into the pace of these sessions
    Pema Pera: thanks a lot, Adams!
    Eliza Madrigal: thanks Adams :)
    Pema Pera: of course, Sun!

    No need to write reports

    Sunshine Vayandar: ty ㋡ I feel bad not writing the reports yet
    Pema Pera: this session doesn't have much of a rhythm, I'm afraid
    Pema Pera: ah, the reports!
    Pema Pera: don't feel bad at all
    Adams Rubble: no need to feel bad
    Pema Pera: it's purely when the spirit moves you
    Xirana Oximoxi: I'm a listener too:)
    Eliza Madrigal: :) and doing this for a while doesn't mean you'll feel ready to write a report...
    Eliza Madrigal: I still don't L(
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Pema Pera: no need -- and no need to write a report
    Adams Rubble: Hello Riddle :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Riddle :)
    Pema Pera: but fun to read what others wrote
    Xirana Oximoxi: hi Riddle:)
    Pema Pera: hi Riddle!
    Eliza Madrigal: yes
    Sunshine Vayandar: hmm okok ;) because I really wanna be here and listen
    Bruce Mowbray: Writing the report is itself part of the exploration.
    Sunshine Vayandar: hi Riddle ;)
    Riddle Sideways: Hi all
    Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Riddle.
    Sunshine Vayandar: yes I enjoy reading them too Bruce
    Sunshine Vayandar: you guys are so wise ;))
    Bruce Mowbray: You are most welcome, Sun -- to speak and to listen.
    Sunshine Vayandar: ㋡
    Pema Pera: ah, if we really would be wise, we probably would shut up!
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Riddle Sideways: ah Sun, you are fooled
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    Sunshine Vayandar: :))
    Sunshine Vayandar: brb
    Xirana Oximoxi: :))
    Adams Rubble: or potato chips
    Riddle Sideways: :D
    Adams Rubble apologizes for what might be an American wisecrack. Wise is a brand of potato chips
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: wisecrisp
    Sunshine Vayandar: sorry - phone is out of the window ;)
    Eliza Madrigal: hahah
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Sunshine Vayandar: ;p
    Sunshine Vayandar: ahh ok Adams ;)
    Eliza Madrigal: beaches and forests (reading adams report) are best without phones perhaps
    Pema Pera: !!
    Xirana Oximoxi: lol...about potatos:))
    Adams Rubble: everything is better without phones :)
    Sunshine Vayandar: it's a bad invention
    Xirana Oximoxi: noooo :)
    Bruce Mowbray: easily un-plugged, though.
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Sunshine Vayandar: true ;))
    Xirana Oximoxi: I coudn't be here without telephone line:)
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Sunshine Vayandar: hmm true
    Bruce Mowbray: After the last SL retreat, I left my phones unplugged for a week -- Did not NEED phones (hint hint)
    Sunshine Vayandar: really Bruce
    Bruce Mowbray: yes.

    Pema asks us about no needs...

    Pema Pera: coming back to the "no needs", did it become a little more clear how we can at the same time feel the real need for (fill in: food, warmth, friendship) and ALSO the totally no-need aspect of reality?
    Sunshine Vayandar ponders living phone-less
    Bruce Mowbray did not feel a NEED for an electronic leash.
    Eliza Madrigal: it is a good exercise, sometimes we think we need something/so much but the power goes off or the special dish breaks, etc. and hm, it is OK
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Adams Rubble: Hello Bleu :)
    Sunshine Vayandar: hi Bleu ;)
    Pema Pera: hi Bleu!
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bleu :)
    Riddle Sideways: Hi Blu
    Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Bleu.
    Xirana Oximoxi: hi Bleu:)
    Eliza Madrigal: well needs are connecting places, like phones
    Bruce Mowbray: My power went off for a few hours yesterday -- when new electric pole was installed here -- and I could watch habitual patterns of dependency upon electric devices.
    Adams Rubble: In my own wods, I had to change my metaphor, I am finding the beach not abandoned
    Bruce Mowbray just turned on sounds...
    Adams Rubble: but had to leave it fiorst to find out
    Adams Rubble: first
    Pema Pera: nice image, Adams!
    Adams Rubble: with some help from Ruiddle :)
    Adams Rubble: Riddles report opned my imagination
    Riddle Sideways: ?
    Bruce Mowbray: oh dear -- knock at door afk....
    Adams Rubble: Riddle's words about his beach
    Adams Rubble tosses the phone at Bruces' door

    Bruce's interruption starts us thinking about doors and walls

    Pema Pera: (a world without phones is one thing, but a world without doors . . . .)
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Sunshine Vayandar: ;)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Riddle Sideways: without walls
    Bleu Oleander: :)
    Sunshine Vayandar: it would be more open
    Pema Pera: ((they would knock on something else then, anyway))
    Sunshine Vayandar: than closed
    Xirana Oximoxi: without borders:)
    Pema Pera: yes!
    Adams Rubble: The walls are a nice example
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Adams Rubble: we need them to stay warm but need them to lift to see
    Sunshine Vayandar: like the way the planet looks from space - no borders ...
    Pema Pera: nice angle, Sun!
    Pema Pera: presumably that
    Bleu Oleander wonders why there are doors in SL?
    Pema Pera: is how the sun sees us
    Riddle Sideways: the usuall answer "tradition"
    Sunshine Vayandar: ;)
    Pema Pera: cozy?
    Sunshine Vayandar: in south africa - we need rails and safety doors and alarm systems
    Pema Pera: :(
    Eliza Madrigal: communication
    Sunshine Vayandar: it closes the mind also
    Sunshine Vayandar: or sometimes it forces it to open more
    Pema Pera: gated communities it is called in the US
    Sunshine Vayandar: yes we have them here too
    Bleu Oleander: breaks down communication and keeps out the "other"
    Sunshine Vayandar: it's not a nice place to stay
    Sunshine Vayandar: so it was a challenge to have an "opencafe" here
    Sunshine Vayandar: create a no-door area..
    Bleu Oleander: denys our needs in a way to separate from each other
    Pema Pera: can you tell us more about the open cafe, Sun?
    Riddle Sideways: sometimes the word Complound is used
    Riddle Sideways: Compound
    Sunshine Vayandar: the cafe is my idea to discover openness for myself
    Sunshine Vayandar: I made a cafe out of the front of our house - in a small south african town
    Sunshine Vayandar: internet cafe
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Pema Pera: and no need for protection?
    Sunshine Vayandar: and so it was an open source cafe ...
    Sunshine Vayandar: well we do have alarm system
    Pema Pera: you were the source!
    Sunshine Vayandar: and doors
    Riddle Sideways: you shared pictures once of it
    Eliza Madrigal: the open one
    Sunshine Vayandar: hehe sounds big Pema
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Sunshine Vayandar: so first I thought it had to use Ubuntu
    Pema Pera: maybe we should have a RL retreat in your cafe, Sun, some day!
    Sunshine Vayandar: Ubuntu Linux and Ubuntu - the philosophy
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Xirana Oximoxi: :)
    Sunshine Vayandar: ;))
    Sunshine Vayandar: but I closed it
    Pema Pera: you closed the cafe?
    Riddle Sideways: ?
    Sunshine Vayandar: I had to close it to be more open ;)
    Sunshine Vayandar: I had been running it for 10 years
    Eliza Madrigal: the world ss sun's cafe , viewed from space ...
    Sunshine Vayandar: the cafe moved to PaB ;)
    Eliza Madrigal: *as
    Pema Pera: !
    Sunshine Vayandar: ;))
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Bleu Oleander: :)
    Sunshine Vayandar: when one gives a name - like opencafe - one feels like it has to be a house with computers in it
    Sunshine Vayandar: but the cafe existed before also .... as soon as I started discovering the world
    Sunshine Vayandar: so in my eyes nothing stops
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Pema Pera: (^_^)
    Sunshine Vayandar: http://www.flickr.com/photos/opencaf...708803/detail/
    Sunshine Vayandar: ;)) it seems Pema is happy
    Sunshine Vayandar: it is an ongoing exploration .... like PaB also
    Riddle Sideways: this week the soundtrack (of the mind/beach) played "You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes..."
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Sunshine Vayandar: ;)

    Back to "no needs"

    Pema Pera: if I can come back to the question of "no needs" -- how can it possible be that we could sense a total "no need": who is sensing that? are we fooling ourselves? is it just a nice idea, somethign to sooth and relax ourselves with? Or is there more there there?
    Adams Rubble: we can see it as no need for anyone to guide us, to tell us what shold be done at least
    Bleu Oleander: does it relate to the "no self" concept?
    Riddle Sideways: probably
    Pema Pera: good questions!
    Eliza Madrigal: and could we use the word open self to point to same sense of things?
    Bleu Oleander: open in what sense?
    Eliza Madrigal: like open source...
    Riddle Sideways: hmmmm, open source Self interesting concept
    Bleu Oleander: source of ......
    Eliza Madrigal: no need
    Riddle Sideways: ah but haven't we always been open source selves
    Sunshine Vayandar: I find it hard to relate to concepts like "no self" or no need .... I do have times when all seems in balance and I don't need anything ....
    Riddle Sideways: defined, written by all others
    Eliza Madrigal nods... hmm
    Pema Pera: yes, Sun, we definitely need air, food, etc -- but could it *also* be true that we are more than that-what-seems-to-need?
    Bleu Oleander: i'm having a hard time resonating with both concepts of no need and no self .... how are they useful ?
    Pema Pera: Eliza indicated "open Self" as alternative for "no self", Bleu, does that help?
    Pema Pera: words are just words, the question is what are we trying to point at
    Bleu Oleander: open in the sense of an ongoing work of art?
    Pema Pera: that would be one angle, yes
    Bleu Oleander: a work in progress?
    Sunshine Vayandar: Those are physical needs that you meantion Pema like air, food ... it depends what we call "need"
    Pema Pera: yes, but perhaps the notion work can be opened up too
    Eliza Madrigal: the other day I asked myself if I had obstacles in my life, and it turned into a different questions... obstacles to a particular project/vision, or obstacles to authenticity... for me they were really different questions (not sure that relates)
    Eliza Madrigal: into two questions, rather
    Pema Pera: ah, obstacles can be seen as something else, challenges, invitations, and then no longer obstacles?
    Sunshine Vayandar: ;)
    Pema Pera: perhaps needs can also be seen in different ways?

    The Chart of Fundamental needs

    Riddle Sideways: Bleu's report last week had a great chart of different levels of needs
    Riddle Sideways: some I don't agree, but good chart
    Sunshine Vayandar: yes I think it's good to look at specific needs
    Bleu Oleander: which ones Riddle?
    Eliza Madrigal nods... challenges as invitations.... nice
    Eliza Madrigal listens
    Riddle Sideways: not sure right now
    Sunshine Vayandar: Bleu can u paste the link to your report pls
    Bleu Oleander: sure
    Sunshine Vayandar: ;)
    Riddle Sideways: point is more that given any X , what is the need for X
    Bleu Oleander: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_human_needs
    Riddle Sideways: ty
    Bleu Oleander: here is where I got the chart
    Bleu Oleander: http://wiki.playasbeing.org/PaB_Books/Magic_of_Time/Time_Sessions/Weekly_Reports/2011%2f%2f04%2f%2f01%3a_Reports/2011%2f%2f04%2f%2f01_-_Bleu_Oleander
    Sunshine Vayandar: ty Bleu
    Bleu Oleander: it made me think of needs in a new way
    Bleu Oleander: not just of food and shelter
    Bleu Oleander: and not just material needs, in fact most are not material in that chart
    Sunshine Vayandar: Yes Bleu - here in South Africa so many people suffer - no food no shelter even ... and it makes me think everyday - what are the things we really need ....especially non material needs
    Eliza Madrigal: is it that we tend to see our selves/lives as made up of our needs? in the sense of 'being' what we 'have'?
    Eliza Madrigal: and see others that way as well, perhaps creating walls?
    Bleu Oleander: so I began to feel like I couldn't say "no needs"
    Sunshine Vayandar: I think so Eliza ... we tend to do that
    Riddle Sideways: wb Bruce
    Pema Pera: that must be a significant part of it, Eliza
    Sunshine Vayandar: wb Bruce ;)
    Eliza Madrigal: Wb Bruce :)
    Adams Rubble: wb Bruce; hello Steve :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Steve :)
    Sunshine Vayandar: hi Steve ;)
    Bleu Oleander: "have" sounds like material needs
    Bruce Mowbray: sry -- lost satellite connection due to storm.
    Xirana Oximoxi: do you think is it possible to feel total 'no need' (apart of the material ones basics to live?
    Eliza Madrigal has a headache
    Pema Pera: blaming storm . . .
    Eliza Madrigal: haha, poor Storm
    Eliza Madrigal: but yes I hear you Bleu
    Bruce Mowbray: lwer case "storm"
    Pema Pera: Xirana, it may depend on who/what you identify with
    Riddle Sideways: :)

    Watching Movie and feeling needs and no needs

    Pema Pera: and you can feel needs and no-needs at the same time, on different levels so to speak
    Pema Pera: like crying when watching a really good movie -- really feeling the sorrow in the movie story and at the same time really appreciating the movie
    Pema Pera: the two don't exclude each other
    Bleu Oleander: it's easy to say we don't need material things beyond the basics ... it seems harder to say we have no needs when it comes to needs like freedom, understanding, affection ...
    Pema Pera: on the contrary
    Pema Pera: does that make some sense, Xirana?
    Adams Rubble: freedom may be defined in many different ways
    Xirana Oximoxi: thanks Pema for the explanations!!... I'm slow, but I will think about it:))
    Adams Rubble: we can live in a free society and be enslaved within our walls
    Sunshine Vayandar: I thought of people that say they live on sunshine ...
    Bleu Oleander: well even in a movie, consiously thinking that it only a movie takes away from the experience of the movie
    Pema Pera: I'm very slow, Xirana, have been thinking about this for most of my life :-)
    Sunshine Vayandar: it seems to give them so much energy - material and spiritual ...
    Pema Pera: not consciously thinking, Bleu, but knowing it is a movie -- even while crying you don't suddenly believe there are real people in the room behind the screen
    Xirana Oximoxi: lol...ok... then I will take it calmly... I see the undderstanding can not be easy:)
    Bleu Oleander: it's a virtual experience
    Bleu Oleander: like sl
    Pema Pera: yes, and the emotions are real
    Pema Pera: so two things can be true at the same time
    Bleu Oleander: oh yes
    Eliza Madrigal: and sometimes a 'learning' can come from a film/fiction in a very real way
    Bruce Mowbray: Attempting to "understand" no-need conceptually does not work for me -- The no-need matter (for me) can only be experienced fully on a level other than discursive thought.
    Bleu Oleander: but where we place our attention matters
    Pema Pera: yes, Bruce!
    stevenaia Michinaga: even a virtual hug can be warming
    Eliza Madrigal: yes :)
    Bruce Mowbray: yes.
    Pema Pera: and yes, Bleu, that's perhaps what I mean : need and no-need can both be true
    Xirana Oximoxi: but, about your explanation.. I think, maybe I make a difference between 'emotions like crying, and needs.. even if they are absolutly related
    Sunshine Vayandar: yes I tested the hug on Eliza
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Sunshine Vayandar: ;)) it works
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    Bruce Mowbray: Eliza is indeed huggable.
    Pema Pera: oh yes, different, Xirana -- all examples
    Eliza Madrigal: :))) and she gave me some to give others... Sun shines on the just and unjust
    Bleu Oleander: like knowing we're all made of qwarks and electrons on one level but human bodies on another level?
    Sunshine Vayandar: ;))
    Xirana Oximoxi: I need to cry when seeing the film... but later I can evaluate it as a positive experience
    Bruce Mowbray: and there are many other levels beyond those, Bleu.
    Pema Pera: hi Luci!
    Adams Rubble: Hello Lucinda :)
    Bleu Oleander: i'm sure there are Bruce
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Luci, Good Morning :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Luci.
    Riddle Sideways: Hi Luci
    Sunshine Vayandar: hi Luci ;)
    Lucinda Lavender: HI Everyone:)

    Announcements including Spring Break. Yaaaay, No more teachers, no more books....no needs (hehe)

    Pema Pera: oh, by the way, the next two weeks I can't be hear: I'll be at the RL retreat in Italy
    Xirana Oximoxi: I agree with Bruce when he says: " The no-need matter (for me) can only be experienced fully on a level other than discursive thought."
    Pema Pera: so we could either take a spring break
    Bruce Mowbray: Sometimes when in a "Flow" or in love, or when experiencing great art - or great sacrifice -- I feel that I need nothing else that that.
    Pema Pera: or of course you're more than welcome to get together here to continue the discussion
    Eliza Madrigal: mmmm
    Sunshine Vayandar: yes Bruce there are moments like that ...
    Bruce Mowbray: nothing else THAN that*
    Eliza Madrigal: Thanks Pema, have a wonderful time
    Pema Pera: yes, Bruce, that's central, the going beyond concepts
    Bleu Oleander: may use the "time" to sleep in :))
    Sunshine Vayandar: yes have a great time - I am sure it will be great there in Italy
    Pema Pera: and in fact there is no need for the idea "no need"
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Pema Pera: hanging on to "no need" is a subtle trap
    Bleu Oleander: no need for no need?
    Pema Pera: indeed :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: RL Calls, nice to join you today
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Steven, good to see you
    Pema Pera: then it would turn into a view
    Bruce Mowbray: I will return after morning meditation. Bye for now.
    Adams Rubble: A need to stop this session so the next one can begin, maybe
    Xirana Oximoxi: bye Bruce:9
    Pema Pera: I'll have to go to :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Bruce, nice pause
    Maxine Walden: afraid I need to go; I vote for a spring break
    Bleu Oleander: is there a need for "no view" then?
    Sunshine Vayandar: byebyee Bruce ;)
    Xirana Oximoxi: bye Pema,:)
    Pema Pera: get some sleep before my next pub stint :-)

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    Some immediate hmms... The use or choice of the word "need" is in itself a framing. Another framing could be around "purpose" or "intention". Perhaps "tropism", because that includes a lot of life. I have an intention to "thrive", which brings along cascading networks of dependencies, many of which could be characterized as "needs" relative to that intention (ie, needs follow autopoiesis). Intention does not necessarily imply insufficient enoughness. In fact the energy of beneficient intention seems to be none other than that of fully resting in enoughness. Purpose then is not "just mine" but that of Being, which "comes in colors everywhere".

    As a favorite quote says, "Nobody polishes the sun", and yet it blazes. Ie, "no need at all" is as much blazing with energy as completely transparent and open. Beyond "nothing happening here, dude.." :-)
    Posted 08:28, 8 Apr 2011
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