2011.04.10 01:00 - Conversation is not a zero-sum game, or: Naked chat

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    Wol Euler was guardian for this session.

     

    Wol Euler: good morning, egg
    eggsalad Ormstein: hey wol.
    eggsalad Ormstein: it's a pretty dress! is it getting warmer there yet?
    Wol Euler: oh yes :)
    Wol Euler: it was around 27 degrees in the city on Friday lunchtime
    eggsalad Ormstein: oh, that's quite toasty!
    Wol Euler: had lunch outdoors for the first time this year
    Wol Euler: hello rhi
    Rhiannon Dragoone whistles and wonders when they wil notie her
    Rhiannon Dragoone: hi Wol
    eggsalad Ormstein: we actually had a cold snap this week, the high today was around 20
    Wol Euler: hello doug
    eggsalad Ormstein: hi rhia! -hug-
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Oh, this is Doug, he's my friend from Philosophye house
    Rhiannon Dragoone hugs egg
    Wol Euler: have you been here before?
    Dar Innis: hello
    eggsalad Ormstein: welcome, doug
    Dar Innis: nope
    Dar Innis: thanks
    Wol Euler: ok I'll give you a notecard and a quick intro in IM while the others talk :)
    Dar Innis: ok
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Hi Paloma!
    Paloma Porta: Hellos :)
    Wol Euler: hello paloma
    Wol Euler: hello frost
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Hi Frost!
    Paloma Porta: Wol,Egg Frost ..huggies
    eggsalad Ormstein: hi paloma
    FrostBlueDragon Resident: greetings .... Namaste
    eggsalad Ormstein: hi frost
    Paloma Porta: om shanti
    Wol Euler: nice necklace, paloma
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Oh, that is a nice necklace, Paloma
    Paloma Porta: i was just with Rhi and Doug at a philosophical debate - is it really all so complicated ..Okhams razor..etc
    Rhiannon Dragoone: And I love your hair
    Paloma Porta: oooo ty
    Dar Innis: i don't think you could call that a debate, lol
    Rhiannon Dragoone: yeah, you got to watch for Occam's Razor; can give you a really close shave
    eggsalad Ormstein: that's why I don't shave, Rhia
    Rhiannon Dragoone: No, more of you and hokon whiipping yout your things and stinking up the place. lol
    Rhiannon Dragoone: And then we all dumped on Philosophy Island.
    Rhiannon Dragoone: So we're here to be nice.
    Wol Euler: that's why we don't call this "philosophy"
    Wol Euler smiles.
    Dar Innis: yeah, i was really going out of my way to be insulting to Hokon, lol
    Paloma Porta: it qualifies as debate in my dictonary ...lol


    --BELL--


    Paloma Porta: but my point is - are the "great thinkers" thinking too much? as a spiritual person my gretest rrevelation come twhen thought stops!!!
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, for me a debate, at least a philosophical one, is about getting at the truth, or at least insight
    Dar Innis: understanding has its place. one mistake many mystics make is to have many insights without understanding them.
    Paloma Porta: ah well we consider there is no understanding!
    Dar Innis: what do you mean?
    Paloma Porta: Understanding is in the mind...so one just gets more thinking !
    Wol Euler smiles.
    Paloma Porta: the Mystic seeks another dimension
    Dar Innis: i would disagree. I dont think much at all. doesn't mean i forsake understanding.
    Paloma Porta: what do you understand?
    Dar Innis: might as well ask, 'what have you seen'
    Dar Innis: too broad
    eggsalad Ormstein likes broads
    Paloma Porta: yes . my point is you have seen nothing..only yr mind
    Rhiannon Dragoone: My thought is when there are opposing sides to an issue, you should approch the issue dialectically; that is try to see both sides and comne to a greater coherence
    Dar Innis: how do you know what i've seen Paloma?
    Dar Innis: you seem to be full of hubris and little wisdom if you presume to know what i've seen.
    Wol Euler: stop right there please
    Dar Innis: is truth too strong?
    Paloma Porta: good point Doug
    Rhiannon Dragoone: no, but you're putting it too strongly, Doug
    Wol Euler: that is IMHO exactly where "philosophical debate" diverges from what we practice here
    Wol Euler: we try not to judge people, or ideas
    eggsalad Ormstein: yes, way too antagonistic for me, Doug.
    Dar Innis: so i should sit back and be judged falsely?
    Dar Innis: ok then
    Dar Innis: i'll leave

     

    And with that, he went.


    Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, there are two approaches to philosophical debate. One can be ARistotelian and feisty, or one can be Rogerian, and see the good in both sides
    Paloma Porta: well in that case you doubt you have seen what I have seen -in which case you and i live in different worlds ? what can you say or i say to try to meet for understanding?
    Wol Euler: my god, these philosophers are a touchy bunch.
    Wol Euler: are you all so desperately unsure of yourselves as to be unable to hear a general comment except as a personal insult?
    Paloma Porta: oh he left - ?
    Wol Euler: yeah
    Wol Euler: anyway. whatever.
    Wol Euler: rhi, come and join us
    Rhiannon Dragoone: yeah, he has a combative style, and he realized it wasn't appropriate here
    Paloma Porta: I was about to eplain how life works for him !
    Wol Euler: we don't do combat.
    Paloma Porta: ya he was unecesarily agressive
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Um, come where, Wol?
    Rhiannon Dragoone: I thought I was with you
    Wol Euler: beside us?
    Wol Euler pats te cushion
    Wol Euler: ty
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Should we try to get egg back? Or will being with three naked women be too much for him?

     

    Yes, three: I had joined Rhiannon and Paloma.


    Wol Euler: he often comes and goes like that
    Wol Euler: I think he sees places in SL as equivalents of TV channelhopping :)
    Paloma Porta: oh well done Wol :))
    Wol Euler: taadaaaaa!
    Rhiannon Dragoone: As long as it wasn't Doug. I feel a little responsible for bringing him here, but I was surprised that he was combtive
    Paloma Porta: ya see how I beat off the best philosophers -this happens they get upset with me
    Wol Euler nods
    Rhiannon Dragoone: That's why I love you, Paloma
    Wol Euler: they are so used to ad-hominem "debate" that they cannot hear general discussion
    Paloma Porta: whats ad-h? i forget?
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Yeah, that's why I list ad hominems as a no, no in my introduction
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Oh, it's where you substitute personal attack for a reason
    Wol Euler: yep
    Paloma Porta: oh ya...
    Wol Euler: or as a kind of flanking move, a distraction
    Rhiannon Dragoone: "I can't believe you, Paloma, you're just a naked chick."
    Wol Euler: exactly
    Paloma Porta: I did get an internal rection to his comment...but i wanted to go on -shame he left
    Wol Euler: "philosophers" presume that their vision of hte world is complete and perfect and sufficient for all purposes
    Wol Euler: whereas we presume that our vision is partial and limited and clouded by our prejudice and misunderstanding
    Paloma Porta: oh
    Wol Euler: wb egg
    eggsalad Ormstein: ty
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Hi egg!
    Paloma Porta: well i was questioning the validity of thinking at all!
    Wol Euler: indeed
    eggsalad Ormstein: hi again rhia
    Paloma Porta: and i wanted to look at this : [01:20] Doug Ezell (dar.innis): so i should sit back and be judged falsely?
    Wol Euler: let's do that now, then :)
    Wol Euler: perhaps he'll read the log
    Paloma Porta: to judge is just to judge - there is no truth ..haha


    --BELL--


    Wol Euler: "truth" is a fiction, but many things are true
    Rhiannon Dragoone: No, it's his model of philosophical discussion--combative rather than Rogerian
    Rhiannon Dragoone: I do both.
    Wol Euler: we often have difficulties with philosophers of his style here
    Wol Euler: our presumption that we don't perceive reality directly, cannot do so, conflicts with their imperative to *own* reality by understanding it
    Rhiannon Dragoone: I know there was antagonism toward me because of that.
    Wol Euler: but as you see, rhi, it was never personal :)
    Wol Euler: because you are still here
    Paloma Porta: Well when emotion enters an argument - i assume unceetainty
    Wol Euler: absolutely :)
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, I think it might be prsonal on the part of some, but others embraced me, and I'm grateful for that
    Paloma Porta: but the man is very learned - i was surprised -its a shame
    Rhiannon Dragoone: There is always uncertainty in philosophy and for some uncertainty=insecurity
    Wol Euler: yep
    Paloma Porta: yes Rhi - ah well
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, there's a venue for him, and perhaps you can visit it, Wol. Philosophy House
    eggsalad Ormstein: he may be knowledgeable (debatable) but he is NOT learned
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, let's not be negative toward him; he was my first friend in SL
    Wol Euler: I am a member, rhi, and I get the announcements. THey are mostly far too late for me, 6pm is 3am my time
    eggsalad Ormstein: sorry, I simply don't like antagonism
    Wol Euler: we have nothing against him, rhi, just his style
    Rhiannon Dragoone: oh, no, that is either my group of Philosophy Island; there is an ongoing discussion there at any timne
    Wol Euler: we don't do combat.
    Wol Euler: conversation is not a zero-sum game for us
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Yeah, and I think he realized that; that's why he left
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Nicely put, Wol
    Wol Euler: ty :)
    Paloma Porta: ya - emotions i think inhibit clear reasoning -thats if one want s to reason
    Rhiannon Dragoone: I went to a gathering at PI, and Doug, Seeker, Soloman, Android, and Smoke were all whipping it out; and ignoring the girls, as we didn't have a thing to whip out
    Wol Euler chuckles.
    Paloma Porta: heheh
    eggsalad Ormstein: why do you suppose I wear a skirt?
    Wol Euler smiles.
    Rhiannon Dragoone giggles
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Why egg~
    eggsalad Ormstein: can't just unzip and "whip it out"
    Paloma Porta: its an anti-gender statement?
    Wol Euler: :)
    eggsalad Ormstein: no, it's not at all an anti-gender statement
    Paloma Porta: nice frock actually :))
    Rhiannon Dragoone: I like gender; as the song says, "I enjoy being a girl." I just want to be trreated as human by guys
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Is that really too much to ask?
    Paloma Porta: would you tell us - or is this not appropriate?
    eggsalad Ormstein: I do it to attract the sorts of ladies who are attracted to men in skirts
    Wol Euler grins.
    Wol Euler: it works for the Scots ...
    Paloma Porta: oooo
    eggsalad Ormstein: Scots don't wear skirts
    Rhiannon Dragoone: And that would be the naked ladies, right, egg? As we all find you attractive
    Wol Euler: technically true :)
    Rhiannon Dragoone: No, they wear kilts
    eggsalad Ormstein: apparently so
    Wol Euler: brb
    Paloma Porta: a kilt is not a skirt ..hehe ie ..if one wants to live -dont call a kilt a skirt..lol
    Rhiannon Dragoone: oh, it's ok if we call a kilt a skirt; they won't hit a girl.
    Rhiannon Dragoone: lol
    Paloma Porta: we should all sit nr egg?
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, i'd like it if he were closer to us, I'm having a hard time putting everyone on my screen.
    eggsalad Ormstein: what would be the purpose
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Could you sit near Paloma egg?
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, purely for me.
    Paloma Porta: one for flickr ?


    --BELL--

     

    Eggsalad asks the L$64,000 question (US$237.65)


    eggsalad Ormstein: so why are you all nude, anyhow?
    Paloma Porta: nude?
    Wol Euler: back, reading, looking at the game of musical chairs that apparently happend in my absence
    Paloma Porta: oh
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, Paloma thought egg should be near us, but she got near himn instead
    Paloma Porta: hehe
    Rhiannon Dragoone: egg, you know why I'm nude; Paloma is nude for the same reason. Why aren't you nude is the question.
    eggsalad Ormstein: because being nude makes me feel awkward
    Rhiannon Dragoone: And I appreciate the move, as I can see all of us in my camera now
    Wol Euler: a fair answer
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Except the fountain is obscuring egg
    Wol Euler: rotate your cameraposition :)
    Paloma Porta: we could all stand up?
    Rhiannon Dragoone: There, i've got it
    eggsalad Ormstein: a male av can either be nude like a Ken doll, or sport a sexual add-on. Neither feels appropriate to me
    Wol Euler: that's true
    Rhiannon Dragoone: It's intereting though, if someone didn't know what this was, and came across us, they would wonder why egg isn't nude
    Wol Euler: that is a difference
    Wol Euler: on nude beaches, many guys wear bathing suits
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Yeah, it is. I have male alts, and having a wee wee seems wierd, but not having one seems wierd too.
    Paloma Porta: ya...intresting comment on fllowing the croud
    Wol Euler: probably for that reason
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Men need dicks
    eggsalad Ormstein: I haven't seen a penis that looks even remotely authentic
    Paloma Porta: I made a male alt - i lasted 3 minutes -converted to female
    Wol Euler: well, it would help if they weren't all as long and as thick as the guy's forearm :)
    Rhiannon Dragoone: I totally embarassed this one guy; he got mixed signals from me, I guess; took his clothes off; didn't have a dick. I cracked up
    Rhiannon Dragoone: He was so embarassed
    Paloma Porta: lets have a look egg -we will tell you>?
    Rhiannon Dragoone: He went out and bought a dick the next day
    eggsalad Ormstein: it is also difficult to attach a dick and a prim skirt at the same time :)
    Wol Euler: hehehehehe
    eggsalad Ormstein: a look at what, paloma?
    Paloma Porta: you got stomach spine and pelvis..you can have 2 penises?
    Rhiannon Dragoone: egg, I'd scarcely know---->if my alts's dicks are authentic
    Rhiannon Dragoone: egg, lmao
    eggsalad Ormstein: why? have you never seen a real penis?
    Rhiannon Dragoone: yeah, I've heard that
    Paloma Porta: egg i was makig a lewd (spelling) coomment re looking at yr Johnson to see if it looked real
    Paloma Porta: sorry
    eggsalad Ormstein: oh, it's such a hassle to attach, I've forgotten how
    Wol Euler: no compulsion here. Egg, do whatever feels right
    Wol Euler: and only what feels right
    eggsalad Ormstein: sometimes, nothing feels right
    Wol Euler nods.
    Paloma Porta: ya am am surprised LL has made it part of the male shape
    Paloma Porta: hasnt
    Wol Euler: well, it's because of AMerican pruderie, IMHO
    Wol Euler: nipples are shameful!
    Paloma Porta: wow
    Rhiannon Dragoone: I've got a retractable one; it retracts so the guy can wear pants and not have it sticking out, but it, er, expands, when he's naked
    Paloma Porta: really?
    Paloma Porta: blimey
    Wol Euler: it's an american company and they have to abide by american mores, else they'd be sued
    eggsalad Ormstein: I'm generally uncomfortable with nudity
    Wol Euler: and now, with the teen grid folded into mainland, it's even more important (legally)
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, then, don't bge nude
    Paloma Porta: lots are - its ok
    Wol Euler: did you know that teens cannot take off their underwear layer?
    Wol Euler: not even if they use the Restrained Love viewer
    eggsalad Ormstein: well, I meant in rl, but I suppse in sl, too
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Yeah, as long as you're ok with us
    Rhiannon Dragoone: You mean, like a noob's underwear layer?
    Paloma Porta: well teens are children is the USA
    eggsalad Ormstein: well, rhia, I just zoomed back :)
    Rhiannon Dragoone: You can't take your underwear off as a noob
    Rhiannon Dragoone: You zoomed me, egg?
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Why, egg...lol
    Wol Euler: yeah, the new noob skin has black bits painted on
    eggsalad Ormstein: I zoomed the whole camera back, rhia
    Paloma Porta: ya thats anti-nudity..and says nudity is wrong -doesnt it?
    Wol Euler: well, it says that our bodies are wrong
    Wol Euler: start with that
    Wol Euler: god made us, but apparently he made a mistake
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Wol, lmao
    Wol Euler: (imagine scarequotes around that sentence)
    eggsalad Ormstein: no. it says it makes ME uncomfortable. Which is wholly different from me finding it "wrong"
    Paloma Porta: Ya God seems happy with the human body -some Humans are not - i suppose
    eggsalad Ormstein: most humans are not happy with the human body
    Wol Euler: crossed lines, egg; I think paloma and I are talking about painted-on underwear, not your comment on feeling uncomfortable
    eggsalad Ormstein: ah, thanks wol
    Paloma Porta: I not judging you egg...i refer to LL only..
    Wol Euler: right
    Wol Euler: I wonder why that is ...
    eggsalad Ormstein: but look at what percentage of people today modify their body... that certainly implies they were unhappy with the way it came
    Paloma Porta: Feel as uncomfortable as you like - so long as you realise you are creating this emotion...lol..start of another dogma rant
    Wol Euler nods.
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, or they feel others will judge them.
    Wol Euler: or tribal allegiance:
    Wol Euler: we all have this tattoo
    Wol Euler: or that haircut
    Rhiannon Dragoone: I find irl, (and here) that you do cede a lot of control over your appearance to others when you're nude; they now judge you.
    eggsalad Ormstein: it is rare in my world to see someonw tihout tattoos or piercings
    Wol Euler: it's getting htat way in Germany too, actually, over the last decade
    Wol Euler: I'd guess that half the people under 30 have at least one tattoo or piercing
    Wol Euler: no, that must be exaggeratedly high.
    Paloma Porta: Rhi - the solution is to let go of desire- wanting things to change - then there is no need to want to fit in
    Wol Euler: but still, lots and lots
    eggsalad Ormstein: it is way more than 50% in my area


    --BELL--


    Rhiannon Dragoone: yeah, don't they have more liberal attitudes toward nudity in Germany; read about this one woman who drives to a convenience store naked, does somne shopping; tourists come to see her
    eggsalad Ormstein: and does she have tattoos or piercings?
    Paloma Porta: as i said before..nudity is legal in spain -ppl do stroll around naked in Barcelona et -in germany its not legal - but the police just ask you to cover up -i the UK one gets arrested by the police
    Wol Euler: perhaps we are less eager to assume damage done to us by things that we don't understand/like/share
    Wol Euler: yeah
    Wol Euler: not legal, but often tolerated
    Wol Euler: perhaps even "usually"
    eggsalad Ormstein: it's too effing cold
    Wol Euler: heheheheh
    Paloma Porta: in the USA theres places legall to be naked - but lets talk sl?
    Wol Euler: all the more reason to do so then, during the four or five weeks in which it is comfortalbe!
    Rhiannon Dragoone: okies
    Rhiannon Dragoone: I need to log, though
    eggsalad Ormstein: ok
    Wol Euler: coming back?
    eggsalad Ormstein: nice seeing you, rhia
    Paloma Porta: oh..by Rhi :(
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Maybe in a little while
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Nice seeing you, egg
    Wol Euler: ok, bye for now
    Paloma Porta: HI Grath
    Rhiannon Dragoone: oh, I have to stay for a minute. Grath here had to *ddress* before he came
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Hi Grath
    Grath Helgerud: hi
    Wol Euler: hello grath
    Grath Helgerud: slow rezzz today
    Rhiannon Dragoone: I have to leave; but I think you'l enjoy the convo here
    Wol Euler: as long as you don't think conversation is a combat sport :)
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Oh, Grath doesn't.
    Grath Helgerud: nope ...
    Grath Helgerud: glad to be here...
    Paloma Porta: Grath - this nudity is uncommmon here- don't get the wrong idea
    Wol Euler: yeah
    Wol Euler: this is a special event :)
    Grath Helgerud: ok np
    Wol Euler: have you been here before?
    Grath Helgerud: I'm easy about nudity
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Grath is cool; he let me be naked at his event; unfortunately, the lindens did not
    Paloma Porta: I am naked for a reason as are the others...but its not what this place is about
    Rhiannon Dragoone: But I do need to log and will see you all later
    Paloma Porta: huggggies
    Wol Euler: bye rhi, take care
    Grath Helgerud: thanks
    Wol Euler: that notecard tells you the basics about us, including our website http://wiki.playasbeing.org/
    Wol Euler: we are a meditation group called "Play as Being", we meet 4x daily to talk about our practices and matters that arise
    Wol Euler: and sometimes just to chat as friends :)
    Wol Euler: we record and publish these meetings on our website for absent members to read
    Wol Euler: may we include your SL name and your commnts in the published log?
    Grath Helgerud: yes
    Wol Euler: ty
    Paloma Porta: then i will say welcome Grath - and say anything you like - we have unhuman civility ...lol
    Grath Helgerud: yw
    Wol Euler: hello obs, you are late today :)
    Paloma Porta: hi obs :))
    Grath Helgerud: I'll listen carefully at first thank you
    Paloma Porta: well i only just started coming here myself - go for it i would say
    Wol Euler: we were talking about nudity/being naked (difference) in RL and SL
    Wol Euler: and discomfort that may arise
    Grath Helgerud: I find nudity pleasing in both RL and SL.
    Wol Euler nods and smiles
    Paloma Porta: hoooray !!!!
    Paloma Porta: (I have encountered negative reactions)
    Wol Euler: one thing that I really enjoyed about nude beaches in the south of France (which meant most but not all of them btw)
    Grath Helgerud: but usually among close friends
    Wol Euler: was that nearly everyone did go nude, young and old, very old even, babies and little kids


    --BELL--


    Paloma Porta: thats the silence for a bit -bell :))
    Paloma Porta: go!!! lol
    Wol Euler: heheheh
    Wol Euler: right, so the point is that when everyone is naked two things happen
    eggsalad Ormstein: 1. I generally zoom way out
    Wol Euler: 1) it becomes really dull, ordinary, not exciting at all - which I think is basically good
    Wol Euler: and 2) you realize that *all* body shapes and sizes are beautiful
    Wol Euler: not just those that you previously had learned (!) to find attractive
    Paloma Porta: very true
    Paloma Porta: more interesting is when 1 or 2 only are naked
    Wol Euler: yes, then it has a different social meaning
    Wol Euler: http://en.academic.ru/pictures/enwik...29_%281%29.jpg
    Grath Helgerud: I think you are speaking about Eros in life fully lived...
    Paloma Porta: nice ..hehehe could be here
    Wol Euler: that's why I thought of it, paloma :)
    Wol Euler: um, yes but no grath :)
    Wol Euler: there is a presumption in places where nudity is uncommon, that it must be sexual; in the south of France that presumption evaporates
    eggsalad Ormstein: don't go all cs lewis on us
    Wol Euler: it becomes as silly as saying that everyone who wears blue socks is out for sex :)
    Grath Helgerud: not sexual... EROS
    Paloma Porta: well ..i have found the judgements arise sharply in ppl..then they consider those judgments sometimes as something they don't like -this is part of my purpose in being nude -also to say other things....maybe later....
    Grath Helgerud: like the food at the picnic
    Grath Helgerud: in the west eros is reduced to sex...
    Wol Euler: exactly, grath, that is what I was struggling to say
    Paloma Porta: yes...ppl have the 1.shock2.judgement.3. sexual buzz ..thats what happens...then 4...they ignore it
    Grath Helgerud: not the love of life ...joy, beauty, passion, all of being ... and playful
    Paloma Porta: indeed
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    Paloma Porta: So poor Wol here ..lol..has entertained my experiment ..for a little while ....
    Wol Euler grins.
    Wol Euler: enforced nudity!
    Paloma Porta: yes ..she cannot get dressed unless i say so ...hehehehe ..Not True !!
    Grath Helgerud: nature ... is deeper than our nudity easily expresses ...
    Grath Helgerud: nudity of being is not only undressed... I see your beauty and your jewelry !
    Paloma Porta: ty..or do you mean Wol?
    Paloma Porta: lol
    Wol Euler: interesting to feel in myself the need to put that on :)
    eggsalad Ormstein: the obsession is what I find interesting
    Grath Helgerud: both of you and perhaps all four of us
    Wol Euler: which?
    Grath Helgerud: but I zoom in not out
    Paloma Porta: The "Nature " of ourselves lies within imho..this is part of what i am saying in nakedness.."Look its my body-not me"
    Wol Euler: definitely, the experience of embodying as a cross-gendered or genderless alt in SL proves that the body is not "us"
    Grath Helgerud: and how would you disclose "you"?
    Grath Helgerud: not just disclothe?
    Wol Euler: :)
    Paloma Porta: ahh I am of the divine -thats my best definition -along with that I am aware of being aware


    --BELL--


    Wol Euler: [02:27] eggsalad Ormstein: the obsession is what I find interesting
    Wol Euler: could you expand on that?
    eggsalad Ormstein: nudity is important enough, in and of itself, to spend an hour discussing the minutae of it
    Paloma Porta: Presuming I am obsessed with nudity - I am - sort of - I feel it is a stament of what I am - less of an obsession thanppl have putting on the grooviest clothes to fit their personality...maybe....hmm sound like a snide comment on egg -it wasn't -i don't do that
    Wol Euler: interesting
    Paloma Porta: fair enuff - we have exhausted the subjet?
    eggsalad Ormstein: well, I have quite the opposite attitude, palo
    Wol Euler listens.
    eggsalad Ormstein: I don't care to be nude, I cover as much of my body as is feasible. But I most certainly don't care what I cover it WITH
    Wol Euler nods.
    Paloma Porta: ya..thats a man thing -social agreements maybe
    eggsalad Ormstein: not here, most men are very fashion conscious here
    Wol Euler: I think that women see clohtes as expressive, and men see them as functional
    Wol Euler: by and large, on the whole, exceptoins etc etc
    Grath Helgerud: covering or uncovering seems to beg the question of a revelation
    Grath Helgerud: what do we seek to reveal about ourselves?
    Paloma Porta: (I had a personal epiphany -then went naked )
    Wol Euler: ah :)
    eggsalad Ormstein: my current outfit (RL): black jeans, black long-sleeve T-shirt, black socks, black slip-on shoes. Probably spent under $50, including the shoes
    Wol Euler: wow, egg :)
    eggsalad Ormstein: what was your epiphany
    eggsalad Ormstein: ?
    Paloma Porta: I got a dress for 890L rently...dress only
    Wol Euler nods.
    Paloma Porta: oh..lemme think
    eggsalad Ormstein: wait, why would a nudist need an $890L dress? Or any dress?
    Paloma Porta: Its a deeply spiritual thing..i will say but you may not get it
    Wol Euler: :)
    Paloma Porta: I am psychic - I can feel ppl...
    Paloma Porta: I realised I "should" be happy..extrapolating my inner peace
    Paloma Porta: but
    Paloma Porta: I realised I think - not only my thought buts incoming thoughts
    Paloma Porta: and feel others emtions
    Paloma Porta: when
    Paloma Porta: I thought they were mine
    Paloma Porta: this lead to loads of issues
    Paloma Porta: that I could not reslove
    Paloma Porta: cos they were not my thought!! or my problems
    Wol Euler nods.
    Paloma Porta: 90% of my emtions are collected from others!
    Grath Helgerud: we live in each other
    Paloma Porta: yes
    Grath Helgerud: "me" is an illusion
    Paloma Porta: suddenly everything was free and clear..happiness..wonderfull
    Wol Euler smiles.
    Paloma Porta: yes "I" am talking about the personna..which exsts within the divine..I am pretending to be Paloma!! I am the divinity behind all the Paloma belief systems !!
    Paloma Porta: This is my religion - take it or leave it -huggs
    Wol Euler smiles and hugs back
    Wol Euler: and how did that lead to nudity?
    eggsalad Ormstein: psst, wol. I was gonna ask that
    Wol Euler: :)))
    Paloma Porta: I want to be different maybe - from the od me - a staement to myself - and also to encourage others to consider their judgment


    --BELL--


    Grath Helgerud: Rhia seems to have made nudity a trade mark...to challenge projections
    Paloma Porta: ya.it was my honour that she friended me :))
    eggsalad Ormstein: I suppose it's no different than my dress
    Paloma Porta: honour/honor
    Wol Euler nods.
    Grath Helgerud: for me ... dress or undress asks the question: what do we seek to reveal about our selves
    Grath Helgerud: what is the character or the being of self revelation... the divine if you will ..or the essence of life... for lack of a better word ...Eros or Love...
    Grath Helgerud: how does that become manifest ?
    eggsalad Ormstein: being that it is 3am, I shall sleep. good night
    Wol Euler: heheh
    Wol Euler: goodnight, egg, sleep well
    Wol Euler: enjoy the weekend
    Paloma Porta: Love - love is my way -I seek only to love -
    Grath Helgerud: hehehehe yes sleep is a great way to manifest such love of being!
    Paloma Porta: Bye egg
    Wol Euler: :)
    Wol Euler: obs has left us too
    Wol Euler: it's funny that he comes here, virtually physically as it were, when he could just read thd transcripts
    Grath Helgerud: then there were 3...
    Wol Euler: I presume that he is also looking at social interactoin: who sits where, who stands ...
    Paloma Porta: may I bore you with this ... The next thing that happened was I lost most of my desire - I found that MY thoughts did not desire - I totally blew out - without desire there is no suffering -this is what i had read - now i am beginning to live it!
    Grath Helgerud: who is he?
    Grath Helgerud: that is wonderful Paloma
    Wol Euler nods.
    Wol Euler: please continue, not bored at all
    Paloma Porta: well now I can see the world like a child..I don't see cars I want or desire -just cars that are shiny and red or grey - i found peace !
    Wol Euler nods.
    Wol Euler: a good state of being
    Paloma Porta: well I have little money - due to whatever.life! so thats a desire..to live better....i think its just a food and shelter computation though
    Grath Helgerud: perhaps neither good nor bad ... rather... being .. or living peace
    Grath Helgerud: are you speaking of both SL and RL Paloma?
    Paloma Porta: oh..rl is sl...I have 2 avatars !!
    Wol Euler: indeed
    Wol Euler: SL is very real
    Grath Helgerud: so here you are speaking of both avatars?
    Paloma Porta: rl is sort of an illusion..like sl...rl - is all energy of the divine -and theres is no me ,you ,tree,etc -this is my beleef.


    --BELL--


    Paloma Porta: I have a body, I have Paloma avie - er - thats it..i speak of my mental computaions
    Grath Helgerud: and you have an avatar in RL as you do here that is nonetheless animated ...
    Wol Euler: have you met SL friends in RL already?
    Wol Euler: (not a non-sequitur)
    Grath Helgerud: yes ... but knew them in RL before SL
    Paloma Porta: yes - I see no "virtual" in this world -both are equally virtual...hard to explain - but-all perception vcome first to the mind..whether the world any world exists is a matter of conjecture!
    Wol Euler: meeting in RL people whom you met here is interesting :)
    Wol Euler: at first there is a physical shock: the tall man is actually short and fat, the woman is actually male, the young guy is in his 60s
    Wol Euler: but after about 20 minutes, that all fades away
    Wol Euler: because the soul inside that body is one that you know very well!
    Wol Euler: the meat is just another avatar
    Grath Helgerud: yes I would agree ... there is an underlying self a sense of the essence
    Wol Euler: what we meet here are souls (to use a loaded word in an unloaded way :)
    Grath Helgerud: we seek to share that with each other
    Wol Euler: and we are very much like our presentations here, too
    Wol Euler: (leaving aside deliberate scripted roleplayers)
    Grath Helgerud: soul for me is a great word... = body digital or otherwise, mind and spirit...
    Paloma Porta: Indeed Garth wot a shame I have said so much and yr wisdom has become diluted !
    Wol Euler laughs
    Grath Helgerud: expessed ... lived... shared...
    Grath Helgerud: I over speak usually
    Grath Helgerud: my apologies
    Wol Euler: no! not at all
    Paloma Porta: "spirit" is the law, and that's the only law there is --comments?
    Wol Euler: it's a fine balance and has worked out well today :)
    Grath Helgerud: I have enjoyed our sharing ... glad to meet both of you
    Paloma Porta: "spirit" might be the divine or they collection of all souls-something like that
    Wol Euler: likewise, grath
    Paloma Porta: indeed Garth
    Wol Euler: we meet here 4x daily, 1am 7am 1pm 7pm
    Grath Helgerud: I will come again
    Wol Euler: good :)
    Grath Helgerud: take care ... both of you !
    Paloma Porta: Namste - huggs
    Wol Euler: you too, enjoy the weekend
    Wol Euler: I think we're done :)
    Wol Euler: thank you, paloma, that was a great discussion
    Paloma Porta: Thank you Wol - a privelage as ever
    Wol Euler smiles.
    Paloma Porta: (cant spell)
    Wol Euler: understood :)
     

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