2011.04.11 19:00 - Would you walk in front of a speeding train?

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    The Guardian for this meeting was SophiaSharon Larnia. The minimal comments are by SophiaSharon Larnia. This sessions was attended by Hokon, Stevenaia, Susan, Aphrodite and Storm. This session turned out to be a bit more aggressive than I'm used to seeing at the pavilion and the text moved too fast for me to follow in places... I'll leave the interpretation to you, dear readers.

    SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Hokon :
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    Hokon Cazalet: =)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: how are you? nice to see you !
    Hokon Cazalet: =) im doing rather well, work has gone well, also had fun reading some philosophy books (i gotta buy new ones cuz im out!)

    --BELL--

    SophiaSharon Larnia: :) I have a birthday coming up, and thats one of the only things I would like as presents
    Hokon Cazalet: how are you?
    Hokon Cazalet: Yaaaaayyyyyyyy!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hehe
    SophiaSharon Larnia: great :)
    Hokon Cazalet: i got my birthday in a month, early may =)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yayyyyyyyyyyy
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :P
    Hokon Cazalet: =)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: im not a typical aries, are you ?
    Hokon Cazalet: im taurus
    Hokon Cazalet: just right over the line =)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: oh whoops
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    Hokon Cazalet: and im pretty stubborn hehe
    Hokon Cazalet: and loyal
    SophiaSharon Larnia: can be a good thing at times
    Hokon Cazalet: yup
    stevenaia Michinaga: waves
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Stevenaia :)
    Hokon Cazalet: its weird, i dont believe in astrology, but im a stereotypical taurus lol
    Hokon Cazalet: hi stevenaia =)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: im not a typical aries,one of the many reasons why i dont beleive in astrology as we know it
    Hokon Cazalet: =)
    Hokon Cazalet: well it stills follows a geo-centric cosmology, so i have a hard time buying it (as it is)
    stevenaia Michinaga: I am confuse
    SophiaSharon Larnia: right, thats part of it
    SophiaSharon Larnia: we were both saying we have birthdays coming up and started to joke about our signs, steve
    stevenaia Michinaga: how can you not belive in something yet speak in terms of your own sign.. which is part of the thing you don't belive in
    stevenaia Michinaga: oh
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes, i could keep in mind to not use the i dont beleive or do beleive phrasing
    stevenaia Michinaga: thought it was one of my easilly confused moments
    SophiaSharon Larnia: sorry Steve :)
    Hokon Cazalet: =)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: esp if someone does have a feeling about it
    SophiaSharon Larnia: now feels rotten :)
    Hokon Cazalet: aww
    SophiaSharon Larnia: im just at a sensitive place right now
    Hokon Cazalet gives sophia some genesis energy to re-vitialize her from being rotton =P
    Hokon Cazalet: hehe =)
    stevenaia Michinaga: is there anything I can do to help?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i've been pulling my 'artwork' out of my inventory over the last few days and been putting it side by side
    stevenaia Michinaga: has no genisis energy to give
    Hokon Cazalet: aww
    SophiaSharon Larnia: the combination makes me feel a little unbalanced
    Hokon Cazalet: oh =(
    SophiaSharon Larnia: it makes me realize how very much i need to make something in rl
    Hokon Cazalet: aw, yeah ive had that feeling before, examining my sl
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i cant paint nor use clay, i think im going to use wire :)
    Hokon Cazalet: =)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: or metal
    SophiaSharon Larnia: or sticks and rocks
    SophiaSharon Larnia: lol
    Hokon Cazalet: =)
    Hokon Cazalet: brb rl for a moment . . .
    SophiaSharon Larnia: ok Hokon
    Hokon Cazalet: back
    SophiaSharon Larnia: welcome back
    Hokon Cazalet: got a drinky
    Hokon Cazalet: =)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: very important for comfort
    Hokon Cazalet: wb stevenaia, hehe yup
    SophiaSharon Larnia: welcome back Steve

    --BELL--

    SophiaSharon Larnia: seems Steve is having trouble staying online, I hope it wasnt something i said
    SophiaSharon Larnia: wb Hokon :))
    Hokon Cazalet: =)
    Hokon Cazalet: i was gonna say, before sl interrupted me . . . before you came, i was resting here and wrote about two paragraphs on Being, kinda spontanously
    Hokon Cazalet: was fun =)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: wow, thats great
    SophiaSharon Larnia: what was it about?
    Hokon Cazalet: about the different meanings of Being, and how it might be all tied together as one
    SophiaSharon Larnia: very interesting
    Hokon Cazalet: becuase Being means different things, yet is also meant as one thing
    Hokon Cazalet: =)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: a being as in a physical being, being as in a state, such as in being in a moment
    Hokon Cazalet: havent finished yet, kinda got to time as the place where Being roams, but only objective and subjective Being (ontic), next to explore absolute Being =)
    Hokon Cazalet: um no more theoretical: Being applies to all things (most generic concept), yet is very concrete and individualized (this object before me has Being)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes, i cant help also to trace the etymology of the word itself also
    Hokon Cazalet: which is a paradox, yet Being is the same in both meaningings
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hmm
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Aphrodite :)
    Hokon Cazalet: was just working out how both extremes are united, how they are both Being yet distinct inside of the essence of Being
    Hokon Cazalet: hiya =)
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hi
    Aphrodite Macbain: Huh?
    Hokon Cazalet: hehe i was talking about some writing i did today while resting here
    SophiaSharon Larnia: gave Aphrodite a nc :)
    Hokon Cazalet: =)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: was going to paste it
    Aphrodite Macbain: tx
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Susan :)
    Hokon Cazalet: hi iwandertoo
    Aphrodite Macbain: when I think of being in this context, I think of consciously being.
    iwandertoo Resident: waves
    Hokon Cazalet: =)
    Aphrodite Macbain: awareness in the momennt
    SophiaSharon Larnia: let me give you a nc Susan, i just gave one to Aphrodite
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Susan
    iwandertoo Resident: what is an "nc"?
    Aphrodite Macbain: note card
    iwandertoo Resident: thank you
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: sorry a notecard.
    iwandertoo Resident: thank you - read through

    --BELL--

    SophiaSharon Larnia: an awareness of the moment
    Hokon Cazalet: i was kinda going through objective Being (factual), then looking at how subjective time seems critical to identification of Being, next i was gonna write about absolute Being, but kinda lost momentum . . .
    Hokon Cazalet: pure moment was gonna be next too =)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: identification of being...
    iwandertoo Resident: i dont understand the differences
    iwandertoo Resident: subjective = consciousness
    iwandertoo Resident: ?
    Hokon Cazalet: objective Being as the factual existence of an object, subjective time as time in our mentality (not out there time)
    iwandertoo Resident: what is "time in our mentality"?
    Hokon Cazalet: and absolute Being was behind subjective and objective
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hi observem
    Hokon Cazalet: subjective time, as time appears in the mind, the temporality of mental acts and contents
    Hokon Cazalet: as opossed to objective time, the time of physical objects
    iwandertoo Resident: how does absolute Being differ from objective being?
    Hokon Cazalet: not sure yet =)
    Hokon Cazalet: i hadnt gotten that far yet
    iwandertoo Resident: [please let me know if my questions are disruptive - i don't want this to be the case]
    Hokon Cazalet: no your questions are helpful i think
    SophiaSharon Larnia: is still thinking around the words subject and object
    Hokon Cazalet: hehe
    iwandertoo Resident: not sure i follow the time in ones head vs. time related to objects
    iwandertoo Resident: time is time, no?
    Hokon Cazalet: absolute Being would be a transcendence from subject/object dualism, but not sure how that will manifest itself (in positive terms)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: not at all Susan, i need a bit of time to think of them at the moment
    iwandertoo Resident: sorry?
    Hokon Cazalet: there is time as it is intended in our perceptions (the time we think about), then the time of mental activity (the time we think within)
    Hokon Cazalet: objective time is only known through subjective temporal processes
    iwandertoo Resident: a man made concept - yes
    Hokon Cazalet: the unity of mental-content in subjective time allows us to make inferences about objective time and objects
    iwandertoo Resident: a measure though
    SophiaSharon Larnia: im not sure what this unity of mental content is
    Hokon Cazalet: as the various sensations are united across time, i can then infer an object is out there (lets say a cup), that i am observing the many sides of it
    Hokon Cazalet: as i see a cup's top, sides, bottom etc, these many sensations are unified across time producing the sense of one objects (as i can never sense an entire object at once)
    Hokon Cazalet: one object*
    iwandertoo Resident: sensations are not retained, i believe. percepts are.
    Hokon Cazalet: so the subjective unity across time of sensations, allows me to infer about objectivity
    Aphrodite Macbain: this is what the cubists were interested in
    Hokon Cazalet: sensations are retained as we have experience of succession, not mere succession of experience
    Hokon Cazalet: if we had no retention, we would never experience motion
    Hokon Cazalet: only the thin slice of current sensation, static and motionless
    Storm Nordwind wonders whether you might infer objectivity but is it still objective without corroboration?
    Hokon Cazalet: well there's a problem inherent to perception it seems, that all objectivity is inferred through subjective processes
    Hokon Cazalet: i cannot corrobrate with others without using my subjectivity to sense and perceive others
    Aphrodite Macbain: that are repeatedly tested though
    Hokon Cazalet: yes it can be repeatedly tested, but still requires my subjectivity
    iwandertoo Resident: at a biophysical process level, i disagree
    SophiaSharon Larnia: thinks the perception of sensation is what is retained, but have no way to test or verify that
    Hokon Cazalet: hm @ sophia
    Storm Nordwind: So for objectivity perhaps substitute pragmatism, as objectivity is indistinguishable from subjectivity
    Hokon Cazalet: it is distinguishable, dream vs perception
    Storm Nordwind: How can you tell the difference?
    Hokon Cazalet: we say quite easily that dreams are phantasy
    Hokon Cazalet: well in the end we cant, then we have skepticism of the objective
    Hokon Cazalet: not pragmatism
    Hokon Cazalet: we seem trapped in our subjectivity at the moment
    Storm Nordwind: It's pragmatic if it helps us to function as we please
    Hokon Cazalet: well in that sense yes, but that in no way demonstrates the objective is real, its then just a useful fiction
    Storm Nordwind: Sure
    iwandertoo Resident: disagree
    iwandertoo Resident: how is the objective not real?
    Aphrodite Macbain: Pragmatism: An approach that assesses the truth of meaning of theories or beliefs in terms of the success of their practical application.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: ive thought that also Hokon, but in more basic terms, as in I wonder if I can understand the nature of reality while my mind is still part of this biophysical system
    Hokon Cazalet: could you not now be having a coherent dream iwandertoo, or say an evil being is tricking you?
    iwandertoo Resident: no
    Hokon Cazalet: then deomstrate how this is objectively real
    iwandertoo Resident: if i put a loaded fun to my head - and pull the trigger i will die
    iwandertoo Resident: if i step in front of a speeding train - i will die

    --BELL--

    Aphrodite Macbain: not if it's a fun!
    Hokon Cazalet: maybe,m maybe not, death is the "undiscovered country"
    iwandertoo Resident: this is how i know
    Hokon Cazalet: i can die in my dreams too
    iwandertoo Resident: absolutely everytime this will be the case
    Hokon Cazalet: youve never experiened death, how can you know?
    iwandertoo Resident: it happens every day
    iwandertoo Resident: predictably so
    Hokon Cazalet: to others, those others may be fictions
    SophiaSharon Larnia: as I may be as well
    iwandertoo Resident: i function in a specific way - as a human, just like millions of others.
    Hokon Cazalet: well im certain to exist, as i have perceptions
    Hokon Cazalet: human is only knwon through perception, yet perception is the very thing at question - thats a c ircular argument
    iwandertoo Resident: which you have due to biophysical unconscious processes (beause you are human)
    Storm Nordwind: And I may believe it has happened for you or someone else, but how can I tell I haven't imagined it. Objectivity must surely be demonstrable to others, yet it is not so.
    Hokon Cazalet: maybe they arent biophysical, maybe they are something else entirely
    iwandertoo Resident: because you dont walk in front of trains, enter wars, act in a way that puts your life in direct known danger
    Hokon Cazalet: jmaybe im deluded
    iwandertoo Resident: no...you're searching for your answers
    Hokon Cazalet: no im just asking for demonstration of the real world's existence
    iwandertoo Resident: you are typing, you are here,
    Hokon Cazalet: just becuase i fear X doesnt make X real
    Storm Nordwind: But that's my belief of reality. And my belief that's how other beings it pleases me to see will react.
    Hokon Cazalet: i type in dreams also =)
    iwandertoo Resident: dont eat for two months
    iwandertoo Resident: try not to sleep for three days
    Aphrodite Macbain: you think therefor you are?
    Hokon Cazalet: your arguments are circular, you assume death is the end, then use that to argue its the end
    iwandertoo Resident: i am therefore i think
    iwandertoo Resident: i use it as the boundary as what you do and do not do
    Hokon Cazalet: what if im deluded?
    iwandertoo Resident: would you walk in front of a speeding train?
    Hokon Cazalet: non sequitor, i may be a hypocrite, doesnt make me wrong
    iwandertoo Resident: would you walk in front of a speeding train?
    Hokon Cazalet: invalid question, look above
    iwandertoo Resident: would you walk in front of speeding train?
    Hokon Cazalet: (to quo fallacy - attack the man not the argument)
    Storm Nordwind: What is a speeding train?
    iwandertoo Resident: i am not attacking you - i am asking a question
    iwandertoo Resident: would you?
    Storm Nordwind: What is one?
    Hokon Cazalet: hehe i didnt mean in a cruel way, i meant in a theoretical sense
    iwandertoo Resident: would you?
    Hokon Cazalet: your critiqueing my person, trying to suggest im a hypocrite, thus my argument is false
    Hokon Cazalet: thats illogical
    Aphrodite Macbain: can we cool this down a bit?
    iwandertoo Resident: no, i'm not. i am asking a question
    Hokon Cazalet: hehe nobody is being mean =)
    Storm Nordwind: A speeding train is by definition something you believe will kill you if it hits you.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: im sure i lost the thread and have to scroll up
    Aphrodite Macbain: seems to me there is angerr and defensiveness happening
    Hokon Cazalet: not on my side
    Aphrodite Macbain: why is there a need to answer this question?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: its a very real barrier on the testing if you think you are real or not
    Hokon Cazalet: (argument or attack in theoretical pursuits doesnt mean the same in pop culture, its not agressive in science or philosophy)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: some of us come to play as being to approach these topics in a less aggressive way
    Hokon Cazalet: yup =)
    Hokon Cazalet: and i dont think any of us are being aggressive atm
    Hokon Cazalet: im not, i didnt think iwandertoo was
    Aphrodite Macbain: what would we do differently if we found out what we experience is not "real". What would change?
    Hokon Cazalet: it'd mess with me hehe
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i could clean my house with my mind
    Aphrodite Macbain: hehe
    Hokon Cazalet: id probably spend my time trying to escape
    Aphrodite Macbain: and would it be clean?
    Storm Nordwind: My life is full of such refinements of reality Aph!
    Hokon Cazalet: (lol though if im just a computer program escape wouldnt be possible or meaningful . . .)
    Aphrodite Macbain: beginning to sound like the MAtrix
    Hokon Cazalet: hehe
    Hokon Cazalet: death then wouldnt be absolute, just reboot my program
    SophiaSharon Larnia: no, i do beleive there is some meaning to all this, although the word beleif does not fit into the paradigm mentioned about
    Aphrodite Macbain: or a Escher drawing
    Hokon Cazalet: i believe in this world also
    SophiaSharon Larnia: (sorry typos, cat on lap)
    Hokon Cazalet: hehe
    Storm Nordwind: Once upon a time, I thought water divining was quackery. I tried it and found I could make it work reliably. My perception of reality changed.
    Aphrodite Macbain: does the world care?
    Aphrodite Macbain: if you believe in it?
    Hokon Cazalet: other people probably do, but the world itself, i kinda doubt it
    Hokon Cazalet: though nature will probably make quick work of you (as iwandertoo was kinda referring to earlier)
    Aphrodite Macbain: would other people care if you didn't believe in the world?
    Hokon Cazalet steps in front of a train to wake up, sadly finding this was the real world :Þ
    Storm Nordwind: You'd have to ask them Aph :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: Gotta trust your senses or you're pooofed
    Hokon Cazalet: id feel weird if you didnt really believe i was real
    SophiaSharon Larnia: ha
    Storm Nordwind: I wouldn't
    Hokon Cazalet: i could be friends though
    Aphrodite Macbain: we would ignore you if you weren't real
    Hokon Cazalet: just it;d feel odd
    Hokon Cazalet: !
    Hokon Cazalet: Nuuu!
    Aphrodite Macbain: very
    Hokon Cazalet: i talk to people in my dreams though
    SophiaSharon Larnia: people act like other people are not real
    Hokon Cazalet: hehe sophia, sometimes yes
    SophiaSharon Larnia: some anyway
    Aphrodite Macbain: do they answer you Hokon?
    Storm Nordwind knows some politicians just like that!
    Hokon Cazalet: sometimes
    Hokon Cazalet: they've gotten used to me not thinking they are real now
    Hokon Cazalet: at first they pithced a fit, but days later they dont care anymore
    Hokon Cazalet: some even say to me saying "your a mere appearance/idea!" "so what?" lol
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i expect others to be as real as i am
    Hokon Cazalet: i do also
    Storm Nordwind has no such expectations
    SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles

    --BELL--

    Aphrodite Macbain: I'm off into my dream dance dears, I hope I find some good conversationalists
    Hokon Cazalet: =)
    Storm Nordwind waves
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :D Aphrodite, sweet dreams
    iwandertoo Resident: best to everyone. waves.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Susan :)
    Hokon Cazalet: byebyes =)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: waves back
    SophiaSharon Larnia: and I'm off to see what kind of oddities I can pull out of my inventory
    Hokon Cazalet: im probasbly gonna go sleep, got work early tomorrow
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye for now :))
    Hokon Cazalet: wake up at 4:30am, bleh
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Hokon and Storm
    Hokon Cazalet: byebyes =)
    Storm Nordwind: Bye then peeps :)
    Hokon Cazalet: Weeee! ^.^
    Storm Nordwind: Namaste
    Hokon Cazalet: byebyes =)

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