2011.04.12 13:00 - Spirit of Inclusion

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Bruce Mowbray. The comments are by Bruce Mowbray.  ("Susan" is "iwandertoo Resident" in the log.)

    Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Susan.
    Bruce Mowbray: Are you on your way to the Dream Group?
    iwandertoo Resident: no
    iwandertoo Resident: here...
    Bruce Mowbray: good!
    iwandertoo Resident: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: I did have a weird dream last night, though.
    iwandertoo Resident: ?
    Bruce Mowbray: It felt like the bottom of everything was falling out --
    Bruce Mowbray: and I kept losing things. . .
    Bruce Mowbray: and eventually I woke up.
    Wol Euler: hello bruce, Susan
    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Wol!
    iwandertoo Resident: hi Wol
    iwandertoo Resident: losing things...
    Bruce Mowbray: yes, I lost my sleeping medications!
    Bruce Mowbray: ha ha!
    Wol Euler: huh
    iwandertoo Resident: laughing
    Bruce Mowbray: but in the dream, someone stole them.
    Bruce Mowbray: and we were on vacation --
    Bruce Mowbray: so I had to fly back home, alone.
    Bruce Mowbray: because I couldn't sleep on vacation without them...
    Bruce Mowbray: weird, huh?
    Wol Euler: heheh
    iwandertoo Resident: how is it weird?
    Wol Euler: do you perhaps worry about losing them?
    Bruce Mowbray: When my lady friend and I went to Panama three years ago, I did actually lose my sleeping pills.
    Bruce Mowbray: and almost had to come home. . .
    Bruce Mowbray: but found them buried in my pack at the last minute. in Miami.
    iwandertoo Resident: not weird then :)
    Wol Euler: so a realistic dream of a reasonable anxiety :)
    Wol Euler: not weird at all
    Wol Euler: IMHO :)
    iwandertoo Resident: what is "IMHO"?
    Wol Euler: In My Humble Opinion
    iwandertoo Resident: thank you
    Bruce Mowbray: well, the pills (losing them, actually) made the "bottom fall out" of everything else --
    Bruce Mowbray: There was a profound sense of what Buddhists call "emptiness," I guess. and that's what woke me up.
    Qt Core: Hi all
    iwandertoo Resident: waves
    Bruce Mowbray had to search hither and yon for his antlers.
    Wol Euler: 'sera qt
    Wol Euler: heheheheh
    Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Qt!
    Wol Euler: hello sam!
    iwandertoo Resident: waves
    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, oo00oo!
    Qt Core: hi oOOOo
    Bruce Mowbray: Have all of you been keeping up with the discussion about "under-age" visitors to this sim?
    Wol Euler: yeah
    Wol Euler: a sad tale
    iwandertoo Resident: no
    Wol Euler: I feel really sorry for X
    Bruce Mowbray: ooops -- Sorry! I forgot that was just among Guardians...
    oO0Oo Resident: Hi Bruce :) , Wol, :) Susan :), Qt :),
    Wol Euler: yeah, an e-mail correspondence
    Wol Euler: management group
    Qt Core: i may have missed some but read most messages
    iwandertoo Resident: makes sense
    Bruce Mowbray: yes. I feel sorry for X also -- and can certainly relate to feeling left out -- being too young to come to a Mature site.
    Wol Euler: I got the impression that he hadn't found people his own age to talk to
    Wol Euler: (i.e. not a peer group worthy of the name)
    Bruce Mowbray: exactly so, Wol.
    Wol Euler: somebody who happens to be your own age, is not necessarily a *peer*
    Bruce Mowbray: I'd not realized until this week that SL shut down the site for kids. in January, I think it was.
    Wol Euler: yep
    Bruce Mowbray: so there will probably be a lot more incidents of kids coming to "M" sites...
    Wol Euler: yep
    Bruce Mowbray: something the Lindens will need to deal with.
    Wol Euler snorts.
    Wol Euler: if only
    Wol Euler: they are too busy making new "basic" viewers to deal with problems that exist inworld
    Wol Euler: because those only affect existing customers, not new ones
    Wol Euler: and they've clearly decided that the only good customer is one who *isn't* yet a customer
    Wol Euler: pardon my cynicism
    Bruce Mowbray: Storm or Eos (one of them) said that the Lindens decide which sims are "M" or "A" -- not the owners of that sim.
    Wol Euler: yep
    Wol Euler: (true)
    Bruce Mowbray: Hmmm.. That really seems strange to me.
    Wol Euler: well, if you are the owner of an entire sim, you get to decide ;)
    Qt Core: but it is decided beforehand, you know that when you buy it
    Bruce Mowbray: oh, I see.
    Wol Euler: but if you've bought a piece of a mainland sim, then the ground owner remains LL
    Alfred Kelberry: hi :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Are we "M" or "A"???
    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Boxy!
    Alfred Kelberry: furry girl :)
    Qt Core: Hi Alfred
    Wol Euler points to the title bar of your viewer window, where the region name is
    Wol Euler: hello boxy
    Bruce Mowbray: Oh! I never noticed that "M" up there! Thanks!
    Wol Euler: yw :)
    iwandertoo Resident: waves
    Alfred Kelberry: m - nude dogs are allowed :)
    Wol Euler: heheh
    oO0Oo Resident: Hi Boxy
    Wol Euler: actually the definition of mature excludes nudity, if you read the community guidelines
    Wol Euler: nude = no nipples
    Wol Euler: and certainly no genitals
    Wol Euler: *mature = no nipples
    Alfred Kelberry: tl;dr
    Alfred Kelberry: :)
    Wol Euler: lb;rooptetty
    Alfred Kelberry: i like woly's version better :)
    Wol Euler: :)
    Alfred Kelberry: so, bruce can't take his shirt off?
    Wol Euler: right
    Wol Euler smiles and shrugs
    Alfred Kelberry: this is weird
    Wol Euler: it's a grey area
    Alfred Kelberry: type "nipples" in google and enjoy
    Alfred Kelberry: lindens are funny
    Alfred Kelberry: ha!
    Alfred Kelberry: *sees bruce's nipples*
    Wol Euler gasps and faints
    Alfred Kelberry: haha
    Bruce Mowbray in embarrassment, rushes to get shirt back on.
    Alfred Kelberry: :)
    Wol Euler: whew! that was close.
    Alfred Kelberry: *brings a glass of water for woly*
    Bruce Mowbray wonders about nude fish, though.
    Alfred Kelberry: fishy nakedness
    Wol Euler: ty
    Qt Core: so nude rules apply only to mammals ?
    oO0Oo Resident: I'm interested in how this relates to ideas of inclusion and integration, especially, as it relates to Eliza's email about pace and space in answering and considering in threads of discussion, and Liza's bringing up, what it may be like for people whose first language is not English for instance.
    oO0Oo Resident: and
    Alfred Kelberry: ah
    oO0Oo Resident: also how the process of Play as Being brings this up
    Qt Core: i think i have to read a few messages then, missed both those two :)
    Wol Euler: same here, are they new-ish?
    Alfred Kelberry: ok, you're excluded from the discussion :)
    oO0Oo Resident: subject line was "confusion" Qt
    Alfred Kelberry: sam, i must say i am confused
    oO0Oo Resident makes space for Boxy t unravel
    oO0Oo Resident: to*
    Bruce Mowbray: What are you confused about, Boxy?
    Alfred Kelberry: :)
    Alfred Kelberry: *gets comfy on the cushion*
    Wol Euler: okay, so this is really interesting. Mature is anything that isn't adult, but which might offend the prudish :)
    Wol Euler: Adult means "photorealistic nudity", so logically our skins (which sure aren't that) are not adult. We can be naked here. qed
    Bruce Mowbray: well, I understand that there's no problem with nude folks coming to a "M" sim. . .
    Wol Euler shrugs.
    Bruce Mowbray: but that might offend some prudish folks.
    Bruce Mowbray: (or even those not so prudish).
    Wol Euler: yes, the word "prudish" was inflammatory, and I withdraw it
    Alfred Kelberry: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    Alfred Kelberry: :)
    Alfred Kelberry: *touches woly's fur*
    oO0Oo Resident: "prude" may be interpreted differently along cultural and religious lines. Some people may be sensitive to this for any number of reasons
    Wol Euler smiles.
    Alfred Kelberry: :P
    Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm.. excellent point, o000o.
    Wol Euler nods.
    Bruce Mowbray: Has anyone seen Burkahs (Muslim female head-coverings) in SL?
    Bruce Mowbray: I have not.
    iwandertoo Resident: i have seen them advertised
    Alfred Kelberry: oh, woly
    Alfred Kelberry: it could be fun for you to wear one :)
    Wol Euler: heheh
    Alfred Kelberry: as a furry :)
    Wol Euler: heheh
    oO0Oo Resident: when the pavilion has Christmas decorations at Christmas time, but does not decorate for other traditions, does that invite other tradition to participate?
    Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm. It might be a transformative experience to wear a burkha (sp?) for a couple of weeks in SL.
    Wol Euler: good point, sam
    Bruce Mowbray: another excellent point, o)))oo.
    Bruce Mowbray: o000o.
    Bruce Mowbray: sry.
    Alfred Kelberry: sam, it certainly doesn't discourage it
    oO0Oo Resident: I imagine each would need to feel that in themselves, Boxy
    Bruce Mowbray: funny thing -- I never celebrate Christmas at home -- only in SL.
    Alfred Kelberry: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Speak of the devil -- I've just received a notice about a viewer update from the Lindens.
    Alfred Kelberry: i'd love to see other traditions presented in the pavilion
    Wol Euler nods.
    Bruce Mowbray: I would too, Al.
    Qt Core: me too, and it just update itself before logging me in
    Alfred Kelberry: i've already updated
    oO0Oo Resident: There are aspects of geographical and cultural bias built into SL, some of which seems unnecessary, but we can also create communities that are less biased
    Bruce Mowbray: We "celebrate" other traditions in the Sacred Art Museum -- why not here also?
    Wol Euler: suggest it :)
    Alfred Kelberry: maybe someone wanted to, but didn't feel it was appropriate
    Bruce Mowbray: Doesn't one need to be a guardian in order to build stuff here?
    Wol Euler: maybe this theoretical person should have asked somebody :)
    Wol Euler: yes, it would need Storm's permission and perhaps involvementz
    Wol Euler: which is reasonable, we don'T want noob griefers putting up porn ads
    Bruce Mowbray: Hmmm... I am definitely going to look into this.
    Alfred Kelberry: woly, let's presume that he or she didn't for some reason :)
    Wol Euler: agreed. But what can we do?
    Bruce Mowbray: Even exhibits of some art works from that tradition -- would be good to have during their holidays.
    Wol Euler: must I learn the traditions of every culture in the world, in order to ask all guardians if any of them wish to celebrate any of these?
    Wol Euler: I don't think that world, boxy :)
    Alfred Kelberry: huh?
    Wol Euler: okay, practically speaking: I am not going to ask you, boxy, whether you are jewish and wish to celebrate Sukah
    Wol Euler: I expect that you would tell me if you were and did wish to
    Alfred Kelberry: :)
    Alfred Kelberry: agreed, woly :)
    Qt Core: i find interesting reading in the home page of wikipedia the day festivity if any and go read about some, both religious and not religious
    Bruce Mowbray: As a Pan-theist, I feel very well represented with the beautiful trees and flowers -- but realize that symbols specific to particular religions would be more agreeable for some folks.
    Qt Core: and disagreable for others
    Bruce Mowbray thinks-- Now Boxy knows why I didn't want Storm to cut down the big willow tree next to my plot.
    Alfred Kelberry: :)
    Bruce Mowbray sees Boxy's collar and thinks: He's NOT nude after all!
    Alfred Kelberry: i think stormy found a wonderful solution
    oO0Oo Resident: My sense is that, as we drop what we have, we come closer to inclusion of all kinds, and may not need to 'have' knowledge' of, or learn all traditions, to have appreciation for the diversity we discover. Maybe we can also drop that, but become more open, and less different from each other. I have been looking into aspects of diversity and inclusion in discussions, and am at the point of asking questions, more than having answers.
    Alfred Kelberry: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: I hope it will work out well for you Boxy -- Let's advertise your prim workshop NOW -- OK?
    Wol Euler: absolutely, sam!
    Alfred Kelberry: bruce, no need :)
    Bruce Mowbray: thank you, Sam for helping me remember why I come to PaB.
    Bruce Mowbray: very well put.
    iwandertoo Resident: if one is happy with their "group" and is a listener - would this be enough for those outside? a person fully consistent with their beliefs/principles but aknowledges the universals in being human?
    oO0Oo Resident: and I would also love to hear about the Prim Workshop :)
    oO0Oo Resident: :) Susan
    oO0Oo Resident: process and objective
    oO0Oo Resident: ongoing
    oO0Oo Resident: to discover
    Wol Euler nods.
    iwandertoo Resident: (I was thinking of orthodox judaism. it is not that "outsiders" are not acknowledged, nor cared for (Gershon in Exodus), but inclusion would require adoption.
    Wol Euler: I'm not sure what you are asking, susan.
    oO0Oo Resident: integration vs inclusion
    oO0Oo Resident: ?
    iwandertoo Resident: if you live by a set of principles and another does not live by those principles - i think one can listen and strive to understand, but not sure if a community can be established
    Alfred Kelberry: *scratches his ear*
    iwandertoo Resident: yes, Samud. better said
    Wol Euler: that's probably true, susan.
    Wol Euler: here and in RL
    oO0Oo Resident: So, in looking at the nature of existence, we can really feel some of the textures along the way
    oO0Oo Resident: those 6 whys Susan ;)
    oO0Oo Resident: maybe
    iwandertoo Resident: understand now. yes :)
    Wol Euler: I have to go, it's time for the WG meeting
    oO0Oo Resident: so big
    Alfred Kelberry: is it?
    iwandertoo Resident: waves
    oO0Oo Resident: gtsy Wol :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, me too (to go) . Thank you all for this discussion.
    Wol Euler: bye for now!
    oO0Oo Resident: ty Bruce ntsy
    Qt Core: bye Wol, Bruce
    Qt Core: bye iwander
    iwandertoo Resident: waves. best to everyone.
    Alfred Kelberry: um
    oO0Oo Resident: gtsy Susan... best to all
    Alfred Kelberry: *waves*
    Qt Core: Going too, bye oOOOo
    oO0Oo Resident: Take care Qt :)
    oO0Oo Resident: A correction: The email which describes Eliza's thoughts on pace and inclusion, and ability to consider in sessions, was initiated I believe by Agatha, who quoted Eliza.
    oO0Oo Resident: Have been pondering this, and feel my own slow pace of doing that. ;-)

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