2011.04.17 19:00 - Autopoietic dreams; Outsourcing intersubjectivity

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Calvino Rabeni. The comments are by Calvino Rabeni.

    oO0Oo Resident smiles at Aphrodite.... hi
    Aphrodite Macbain smiles
    oO0Oo Resident: Nice to see you
    Aphrodite Macbain: you too
    Aphrodite Macbain: brb
    oO0Oo Resident: kk
    Aphrodite Macbain: back
    oO0Oo Resident: wb
    Aphrodite Macbain waves
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Calvino
    oO0Oo Resident: hiya Cal gtsy
    Calvino Rabeni: Hi, good evening, Aphr and 0 :)
    --BELL--


    Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Arch
    oO0Oo Resident: hey Arch :)
    Archmage Atlantis: Hello sam, aph, cal
    Archmage Atlantis: Excuse me while I get the cat whiskers out of my face
    Archmage Atlantis: At 17, he has really long ones
    Aphrodite Macbain grins. They miust get tougher too
    Archmage Atlantis: Tougher to avoid
    Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
    Archmage Atlantis: Like having a really, really old kitten
    Calvino Rabeni: Still chases things that aren't there?
    Aphrodite Macbain: Don't we all?
    Archmage Atlantis: No, still wants to be on top of me
    Archmage Atlantis: And, cats see things we don't that are there
    Aphrodite Macbain: what kind of things?
    Archmage Atlantis: bug mostly
    oO0Oo Resident: A Chasm Clap Rah
    Aphrodite Macbain: Is that a kind of bug?
    oO0Oo Resident: anagram of aph cal arch sam
    Aphrodite Macbain: lol
    oO0Oo Resident: :)
    oO0Oo Resident: A Chap Calms Rah
    Aphrodite Macbain: Cal, has anyone else shown an interest in the OF sessions?
    oO0Oo Resident shows interest
    Aphrodite Macbain: Sam's ears are wiggling
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, depending on whether it could meet at a suitable time
    Aphrodite Macbain: that's a tough one
    Archmage Atlantis: Rah is close to Ra, the sun god.....is that something in your reality Sam?
    oO0Oo Resident: met a person several hours ago with Ra tattoo on inner wrist Arch so.... yes
    Aphrodite Macbain: was it an image of a hawk?
    Archmage Atlantis: ty
    oO0Oo Resident: hiya Fox :)
    Fox Monacular: Hi everyone!
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hello Fxo
    Aphrodite Macbain: Fox
    Aphrodite Macbain: Ofx
    Aphrodite Macbain: )xf
    Aphrodite Macbain: )xf
    Aphrodite Macbain: 0xf
    Aphrodite Macbain: grr
    Calvino Rabeni: Hi Fox ! GTSY
    Archmage Atlantis: Iffen fnng typing don't workin
    Fox Monacular: :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: rvey utre
    Archmage Atlantis: likes utre
    Aphrodite Macbain: It's yours
    Archmage Atlantis: tanks
    oO0Oo Resident: anagram update: Scholar Camp Fax Ah
    Fox Monacular: Calvino, I saw the transcript about the Original face - very interesting
    Aphrodite Macbain: I'm intrigued by your leafy limbs Fox
    Fox Monacular: when does the group meet?
    Archmage Atlantis: In the beginning the chaos created god,
    Calvino Rabeni: I have: "vamp of anarchic glamor hoaxes"
    oO0Oo Resident: I also saw it, and was very impressed
    Fox Monacular: hehe, leafy feeling
    Calvino Rabeni: The current meeting time is Monday 11AM SLT starting on the 25th
    Aphrodite Macbain: fall leaves
    --BELL--


    Hokon Cazalet: hi =)
    Archmage Atlantis: ding
    Fox Monacular: thanks:)
    Aphrodite Macbain: =)
    oO0Oo Resident: @Cal RE: OF .. Really appreciated the consideration that Liza/Darren, Bruce and you put into defining the form so thoroughly and clearly... well thought out and inspiring
    Calvino Rabeni: thanks, Sam
    Hokon Cazalet: oh hey cal =) its been a while
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hear hear
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, how've you been Hokon
    oO0Oo Resident: heya Hokon
    Aphrodite Macbain thumps table
    Hokon Cazalet: ive done well, you?
    Calvino Rabeni: nods yes same here :)
    Hokon Cazalet: =)
    Archmage Atlantis: been, not done bro
    Aphrodite Macbain: one can do well also
    Calvino Rabeni: There's also "gone"
    Archmage Atlantis: acccept
    Calvino Rabeni: "how are you going" ?
    Calvino Rabeni: or some variation
    Aphrodite Macbain: comment ca va? how goes it?
    Aphrodite Macbain: I usually go on foot
    Archmage Atlantis: I usually don't go at all, can't walk that far
    Aphrodite Macbain: you go on wheels
    Archmage Atlantis: No cars avalabe
    Calvino Rabeni: It reminds me of the convention of whether one "makes" or "takes" a decision
    Archmage Atlantis: not mortorized cars
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes. they each have different implications
    Aphrodite Macbain: (making or taking)
    Fox Monacular: in Russian one 'accepts' or 'takes' ( as in taking a medicine) a decision:)
    Hokon Cazalet: =)
    Archmage Atlantis: Ah,
    Archmage Atlantis: Russian
    Aphrodite Macbain: You are Russian Fox?
    Fox Monacular: yes
    Hokon Cazalet: cool =)
    Archmage Atlantis: there is a third alternative
    Aphrodite Macbain: which is?
    Archmage Atlantis: make, take, or create
    Archmage Atlantis: create is third
    Aphrodite Macbain: creat a decision?
    Aphrodite Macbain: create
    Aphrodite Macbain: Is that a Russian tree Fox?
    oO0Oo Resident: anagram update: A Cacao Flank Shh Morph Ox
    Fox Monacular: who knows... unrooted and waking around, trying to plant itself somewhere else
    Aphrodite Macbain giggles
    Hokon Cazalet: =)
    Calvino Rabeni: Lucky for us most things "go without saying"
    oO0Oo Resident nods
    Aphrodite Macbain: not even "good bye"
    Archmage Atlantis: Actually, that for me, would be unlucky.......to not say, is to hide, to hide is to not create
    Calvino Rabeni: But now I'm imagining a wandering tree, everywhere saying, "I'm seeking my Roots"
    Fox Monacular: :) reflects my current situation well too :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: a rootless tree searching for a home
    Hokon Cazalet: me as well =)
    oO0Oo Resident: how can a tree 'reach out' without roots?
    Fox Monacular: through SL
    Aphrodite Macbain: with its branches?
    Calvino Rabeni: The branches and leaves reach for the heavens, the roots reach for the earth
    Aphrodite Macbain: joining heaven and earth
    Archmage Atlantis: My grandparents and my parents give me roots
    Calvino Rabeni: like humans and other animals, they live in the middle realm
    Calvino Rabeni: of the sandwich universe :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: including the birds?
    Fox Monacular: quantum sandwich
    Aphrodite Macbain: hehe
    Archmage Atlantis: Including the snakes, the lizards, the frog, the roaches......and the birds
    Archmage Atlantis: We are one planet
    Archmage Atlantis: in a sea of beint
    Archmage Atlantis: We decide
    Aphrodite Macbain: Not far from us, Storm is creating an astral view of the earth
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm not sure what would happen if I were to bite into a quantum sandwich.. would it bite back somewhere else?
    Fox Monacular: it would bite back someone else
    Fox Monacular: some butterfly probably
    Fox Monacular: :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: It might do terrible things to your gums
    Archmage Atlantis: Of course it would bit back
    --BELL--


    Archmage Atlantis: And so?
    oO0Oo Resident: .
    oO0Oo Resident: The bristlecone pines are the oldest single living organisms known (though some plants form clonal colonies which may be many times older). The oldest bristlecone pines are single plants that have been alive for a little less than 5,000 years.
    oO0Oo Resident: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristlecone_pine
    Archmage Atlantis: Oldest plants, perhaps
    Aphrodite Macbain: wonder whether there is a bristlecone pine beetle as old
    Archmage Atlantis: Oldest life, perhaps older than that
    Aphrodite Macbain: cockroaches
    Archmage Atlantis: Slugs are older
    Archmage Atlantis: no exoskeleton
    Aphrodite Macbain: wonder if they will live on longer than we humans
    Aphrodite Macbain: do you think it matters?
    Archmage Atlantis: Turtles seem to live longer.....turtles all the way down you know
    Aphrodite Macbain: down what?
    Archmage Atlantis: and not it does not matter
    oO0Oo Resident remembers seeing Bristlecone pines and thinking... these lives predate Christianity and Buddhism
    Aphrodite Macbain: 'and the Egyptians
    Archmage Atlantis: Down to the bottom of the universe
    oO0Oo Resident: and my last bought of emotional reactivity ;)
    Aphrodite Macbain: the Vancouver Canuks are winning if I can judge from the cheers
    oO0Oo Resident: lol
    Aphrodite Macbain: your last one Samuo?
    Archmage Atlantis: Go yankees
    oO0Oo Resident: wondering if i might live longer with the equinimity of a tree
    Aphrodite Macbain: get those yankees off the rink!
    Archmage Atlantis: Although, I am a southern boy....and a FL boy at that......so I suppose I should pick a team from around here
    Aphrodite Macbain: as long as Macmillan Bloedel doesn't come and cut you down Sam
    oO0Oo Resident: ? Cal?
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm wondering about the benefits of outsourcing one's emotional reactivity to professionals like the Canuks
    Aphrodite Macbain: hehe
    Calvino Rabeni: Hmm :)
    oO0Oo Resident: sliding and checking
    Calvino Rabeni: I think I like the idea
    Aphrodite Macbain: which? outsourcing?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Aphrodite Macbain: me too
    Archmage Atlantis: I like that phrase :"outsoursing one's emotional reactivity""
    Calvino Rabeni: It would be, hiring an expert alter ego
    Archmage Atlantis: I don't think we'd be here if that were one of our choices.
    Aphrodite Macbain: to do what, exactly?
    Calvino Rabeni: With some extra dramatics and emotional flourishes ..
    Calvino Rabeni: oh, wail at funerals, jump up and down
    Calvino Rabeni: worry and run in circles
    Calvino Rabeni: wring hands
    oO0Oo Resident: if i have the mindfulness.. i will paint a tooth or two black when next i feel the winds of turbulance
    Aphrodite Macbain: onigokko?
    Fox Monacular: wait:)
    Aphrodite Macbain: lol
    Archmage Atlantis: Not for me, but I will watch
    Fox Monacular: onigokko
    Calvino Rabeni: stop
    Aphrodite Macbain: oops. sorry what I started
    Calvino Rabeni: onogokko
    Calvino Rabeni: onigokko
    Archmage Atlantis: I like lollipop league, actually
    Fox Monacular: yeah:)
    Aphrodite Macbain: onigokko
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hi druth!!
    Aphrodite Macbain: stop
    druth Vlodovic: wow, cerebral
    Fox Monacular: hey druth
    Aphrodite Macbain: calm down cal
    druth Vlodovic: hi :)
    Archmage Atlantis: lolli
    Fox Monacular: calvino goes solo
    oO0Oo Resident: anagram for onigokko; Go In Kook
    Aphrodite Macbain: lol cubed
    Aphrodite Macbain: yayy arch
    oO0Oo Resident: hiya Druth :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: did we outsource anything?
    Calvino Rabeni: yes some embodiment I believe
    Aphrodite Macbain: wonder whose
    Archmage Atlantis: If we did, Aph, we didn't get paid for it
    --BELL--


    Aphrodite Macbain: hehe Arch
    Fox Monacular: outsourcing embodiment
    Fox Monacular: i should use it as a title of my thesis:)
    Archmage Atlantis: "a" title.....your thesis has more than one?
    Calvino Rabeni: now I have the distinct need to run around the house, to compensate for Cal's doing it in SL
    Calvino Rabeni: brb
    Aphrodite Macbain: interesting
    Aphrodite Macbain: does this happen when you perform other SL activities?
    Calvino Rabeni: back
    Aphrodite Macbain: like flying?
    oO0Oo Resident: Anagram Update for: cal fox aph druth sam arch hok A Flashcard Harp Hock Ohm Tux
    Calvino Rabeni: It's nice having a house or apartment with a loop path
    Aphrodite Macbain: scrabblemind
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes, that way you dont bump into yourself Cal
    Archmage Atlantis: krap...broken lollipop
    Calvino Rabeni: flying, .. good idea .. how can one carry that out in RL to balance the avatar's activities?
    Fox Monacular: @Aphro I'm still deciding on a title:)
    Calvino Rabeni: Paper airplanes?
    Aphrodite Macbain: jump from a second storey window?
    oO0Oo Resident: tossing hockey players back and forth?
    Calvino Rabeni: Interesting Fox, does embodiment play into your thesis as a theme?
    Fox Monacular: hey Paradise! good to see you!
    Aphrodite Macbain: or does outsourcing?
    Fox Monacular: yes, it will be a central theme
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Paradise
    Calvino Rabeni nods
    Fox Monacular: outsourcing not so much:)
    oO0Oo Resident: hiya Paradise :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
    Archmage Atlantis: Gotta party invite, gotta try to go
    Aphrodite Macbain: what is it about Fox?
    oO0Oo Resident: in source is the open source
    Fox Monacular: dreams:)
    Calvino Rabeni: not outsourcing? hmmm, .. it might be promising, though
    Aphrodite Macbain: embodied dreams?
    Fox Monacular: and phenomenology of the bodily experiences
    Calvino Rabeni: Dreams as a kind of in-sourcing
    Fox Monacular: yes, something like that
    Aphrodite Macbain: is there much written on this?
    Fox Monacular: nope, not yet:)
    Calvino Rabeni: except if something is in-sourced to me, as a dream, in some sense is it being outsourced from somewhere else?
    Paradise Tennant: hiya druth . hokon . fox ! O Cal Aph gts everyone :)
    Calvino Rabeni: and if that were true, where am I outsourcing to, in the same sense
    Fox Monacular: hmmm... good question... more like a loop:)
    Aphrodite Macbain: another person's dreams?
    Hokon Cazalet: hi paradise =)
    druth Vlodovic: hi PT
    Aphrodite Macbain: you get to interview people about their dreams?
    Fox Monacular: sometimes the source is at the same place as destination
    Fox Monacular: yes, this is the main part of my owrk...
    Aphrodite Macbain: the subconscious?
    Fox Monacular: i like to wake them up and ask:)
    Paradise Tennant: waves at stev :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: smiles to all
    Fox Monacular: hey Steve!
    oO0Oo Resident: hi Steveaia :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Steve GTSY
    stevenaia Michinaga: you look amazing Fox
    stevenaia Michinaga: in full bloom
    druth Vlodovic: "subject experiences uncontrolled arm movement upon awaking, ok."
    Fox Monacular: thanks, Steve:)
    Aphrodite Macbain: Is this an embodiment of one of your dreams Fox?
    druth Vlodovic: hey steve
    Calvino Rabeni: Funny, druth
    Fox Monacular: hehe, not sure
    Calvino Rabeni: experimenter influence
    Fox Monacular: actually, it happens, druth:)
    Fox Monacular: uncontrolled waving:)))
    druth Vlodovic: dangerous work
    Aphrodite Macbain: uncontrolled reaching for coffee
    stevenaia Michinaga: wonders if we can't define what the concious is, how can we create a sub concious out of it?
    Fox Monacular: me too, i wonder about that
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: they kind of go together though
    Calvino Rabeni: I know a man who had sleep disturbances, and was assigned by the doc to keep a log... after that he spent a lot of time awake at night filling out the log ...
    Aphrodite Macbain smiles at Cal
    Fox Monacular: hahaha, that's so ironic, Cal, I totally believe it
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Fox Monacular: in science we don't really talk about subconscious... it's really more a psychoanalytic language
    Aphrodite Macbain: what do you call it?
    Aphrodite Macbain: somatic something?
    Fox Monacular: nothing, Aphro, some processes are 'not conscious' or 'inaccessible to self-reflecive thinking'
    Fox Monacular: some vague statement
    Aphrodite Macbain nods in confusion
    Fox Monacular: we're deeply confused:)
    stevenaia Michinaga: smiles in an equal fog
    Aphrodite Macbain: well, as long as we're equal
    Fox Monacular: equally confused
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: I like to ask researchers a kind of generic question .. what conceptual framework do you need to adhere to and what are you trying to change to advance the state of knowledge
    Aphrodite Macbain: equal but different confusions
    Fox Monacular: ouch, Calvino:)
    Calvino Rabeni: psychoanalysis had an idea of the unconscious being revealed somehow
    stevenaia Michinaga: trouble maker... cal
    Calvino Rabeni: sorry Fox
    Aphrodite Macbain: you should be a thesis advisor Cal
    Fox Monacular: I try not to adhere to a specific framework:)
    Fox Monacular: but I need to pleay by the rules
    Fox Monacular: so there's a trade-off... you use 'accepted' language = you publish your data in good journals
    stevenaia Michinaga: hi Pila, new avi?
    Aphrodite Macbain: I know someone who presented her thesis in the form of dance
    Fox Monacular: Pila! Hi!
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hiya PIla
    oO0Oo Resident: Anagram Update for: cal fox aph dru sam arch hok para stev A spark cavalcades for thorax humph
    Fox Monacular: did she pass?
    Pila India: hi (had to use an alt to log in)
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes, she got an A
    Calvino Rabeni: however outside the practice of psychotherapy, it might make sense to account for the fact that some processes intimate to mind in a causal sense will always remain unconscious
    Fox Monacular: hehe
    Fox Monacular: yes, definitely
    Calvino Rabeni: (or will they ?) :)
    oO0Oo Resident: hiya Pila
    Fox Monacular: and even hardcore cognitive science does not really disagree
    --BELL--


    Fox Monacular: but they don't know what to do with these things
    Paradise Tennant: smiles hiya pila gtsy :)
    Fox Monacular: Although there's some disagreement about the casual nature of unconsciousn processes... old school behaviorists would say it's all reflexory and learned 'primed' behaviour
    Fox Monacular: (I don't really agree with this but the majority of cognitive scientists kinda implicitly do)
    druth Vlodovic: we learn to dream?
    Fox Monacular: in some way, yes
    Aphrodite Macbain: we learn what and how to dream?
    Paradise Tennant: we learn to remember our dreams?
    Fox Monacular: we learn to 'remember' or 'report dreams
    Fox Monacular: yes:)
    Aphrodite Macbain: oh so it's memory that shapes what we report
    Fox Monacular: it's a possibility
    Fox Monacular: re-constructing
    Fox Monacular: some argue that dream only arises upon awakening
    Fox Monacular: that is we construct in in the moments when we awaken
    Aphrodite Macbain: what about rem sleep that happens all night?
    Pila India: ow about awakening n the dream?
    Calvino Rabeni: That makes sense in a certain way
    Fox Monacular: hehe, exactly
    Paradise Tennant: hmm
    Calvino Rabeni: sort of like confabulation theory
    Fox Monacular: rem sleep happens sometimes at night, yes
    Fox Monacular: surprisingly, quite a few researchers used to think that way
    Paradise Tennant: don't believe it .. though .. have the sense I am other places more than just upon waking :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: me too
    Aphrodite Macbain: I dream all night because I wake up at night and remember some dreams
    Calvino Rabeni: so the same process can be happening ongoing, is that one interpretation Fox?
    Fox Monacular: there's a hypothesis that we dream all nitgh, but can only rememebr them if awaken from REM sleep
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes- that's true for me
    Calvino Rabeni: It could be we dream all day also
    Fox Monacular: beacuse REM is so close to waking
    Aphrodite Macbain: daydream?
    Pila India: that is Maxinie's opinion, that we are always dreaming, even while awake our dreaming coinues
    druth Vlodovic: they say recording dreams changes the nature of the dreams, I wonder if it changes according to anticipated expectation of others
    Calvino Rabeni: but don't "remember" it because of the compelling nature of the waking process
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Fox Monacular: may well be, druth... it's a constraint of most dream studies
    Pila India: as I understand Maxine's comments at least
    Fox Monacular: I agree with Maxine (but I don't say it at work:)
    Pila India: :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: lol
    stevenaia Michinaga: we won;t tell
    Pila India: 'accepted thoughts only'
    Aphrodite Macbain: are our waking dreams our monkey brains at work?
    Fox Monacular: (my boss kinda knows:) but we avoid the topic, at least on paper;)
    Calvino Rabeni: The conceptual framework you have to pretend to believe
    Fox Monacular: yes, the rules of the game
    druth Vlodovic: perhaps this is why when we get very bored we daydream
    stevenaia Michinaga: laughs
    Calvino Rabeni: which may lead to something subversive in the research
    Fox Monacular: we have plenty of ideas and material for totally subversive research
    Fox Monacular: but we still need out grant submissions
    Fox Monacular: hehe
    Calvino Rabeni smiles .. the great ones are subversive with plausible deniability
    Aphrodite Macbain: why would it be "subversive" if it's well researched?
    Aphrodite Macbain: sorry that was a stupid statement
    druth Vlodovic: why would it be considered controversial?
    Aphrodite Macbain: what I meant to say is "what makes it subversive?"
    Fox Monacular: lol, canadian govt doesn't really fund subversive research yet...
    Fox Monacular: they need a special foundation for it
    Aphrodite Macbain: they do fund subversive art projects
    stevenaia Michinaga: remember when the sun was the center of the universe.... heresy
    stevenaia Michinaga: hericy
    stevenaia Michinaga: hmmm
    Aphrodite Macbain: you remember? You're older than I thought Steve
    stevenaia Michinaga: just like yesterday
    Pila India: the emptiness referred to in contemplative traditions may refer to the absence of dream-like mind activity
    Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
    Fox Monacular: yes, ast is another story, it's to appease the masses 'subversively':) so that they cathartically express themselves... and go home to their tvs:)))
    Fox Monacular: ast=art
    Aphrodite Macbain: not the art that I know!
    Fox Monacular: interesting, Pila, maybe this is a phenomenological basis for emptiness
    Calvino Rabeni: I wonder if distributed or collective intelligence is "subversive" relative to the current paradigms for academic dream research?
    Fox Monacular: :) @ Aphro
    druth Vlodovic: it would be for modern politics
    Aphrodite Macbain: any decent art challenges our preconceptions
    Fox Monacular: yes, certainly it is unorthodox... although depends on the domain... i guess for anthropology or socieolgy it could be ok... but certainly not for neuroscience
    Aphrodite Macbain: and is usually, therefore, subversive
    Aphrodite Macbain: agreed
    Fox Monacular: although with all this work on extended mind... intersubjectivity and embodied cognition, perhaps we can soon talk about these things
    Aphrodite Macbain: we're talking now!
    Calvino Rabeni: neuroscience may be incorporating mechanisms of process entrainment between different invididuals, e.g. mirror neurons and other ways to explain multi-brain processes
    Fox Monacular: yes, I meant in mainstream science
    --BELL--


    Aphrodite Macbain listens to Cal
    Fox Monacular: but in art, literature and other creative domains, sure, we've been talking about it all the time!
    druth Vlodovic: g2g, 'night all
    Paradise Tennant: multi brain process ... almost makes you want to plug :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: night Druth
    Paradise Tennant: good nite druth :) sweet dreams
    oO0Oo Resident: Anagram Update for: cal fox aph dru sam arch hok para stev pila A dark sarsaparilla humph catch vex poof
    Aphrodite Macbain: nite Druth
    oO0Oo Resident: night druth :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: humph!
    Aphrodite Macbain: GTG too
    Aphrodite Macbain: perchance to dream
    stevenaia Michinaga: night Aphro
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    Paradise Tennant: good nite aph :) dream vividly :)
    oO0Oo Resident: bye Aph :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Fly well Aphr
    oO0Oo Resident: gtsy
    Pila India: bye
    Fox Monacular: bye Aphro
    Paradise Tennant: are you still dreaming vividly fox :) you have such spectacular dreams
    Fox Monacular: :) sometimes
    Fox Monacular: when my daughter lets me sleep
    Fox Monacular: hehe
    Pila India: :)
    Paradise Tennant: will bet she is dreaming of you ;)
    Paradise Tennant: smiles at pila . I have friends who just named their daurghter india :)
    Fox Monacular: a couple of days ago she fell asleep in a car seat, and as I was transfelrring her, she shouted NO STOP NO
    Pila India: nice
    Paradise Tennant: ouch
    Fox Monacular: In ENGLIGH:) I speak Russian to her and my husband speaks French!
    Paradise Tennant: did she remember why
    Fox Monacular: so english is the language that she hears a lot, but nobody really speaks it to her:)
    Fox Monacular: just goes to show how much more they know, that we have no idea about
    Pila India: she dreams in it it seems
    Fox Monacular: strangely
    Paradise Tennant: must be interesting dreaming in different languages ;)
    Fox Monacular: i have no idea anymore in what langiage i dream
    Paradise Tennant: but imagery is really the language of dreams and that is without language
    Fox Monacular: yes, but language also often determines available imagery:)
    Paradise Tennant: and how we connect the ideas we are dreaming about
    Calvino Rabeni: Have you heard, Fox, about the common coding hypothesis?
    Pila India: if you want a verbose dream, dream of a lawyer
    Paradise Tennant: smiles at pila :)
    Hokon Cazalet: hehe
    Fox Monacular: yes, the perception-action idea?
    Calvino Rabeni: yes I think that's the same idea
    Fox Monacular: shared representations between linguistic and sensorimotor systems
    Calvino Rabeni: right
    Fox Monacular: like your example from earlier - make or take decision
    Paradise Tennant: our muscles think in words?
    Calvino Rabeni: integrating memory, planning, imagination, and perception
    Calvino Rabeni: nods
    Fox Monacular: 'make' and 'take' are images of physical actions being translated into an abstract idea
    Pila India: sounds subversive
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: so if I visualize the image of apple, behind the scenes, my hand is ready to grab it
    Fox Monacular: there are a lot of variations on the theme these days, embodiment being the main catch term
    Paradise Tennant: smiles muscles have memories :) maybe they remember pictures
    Fox Monacular: yes, like mirror neurons
    Paradise Tennant: so our thoughts manifest in our body
    Pila India: instead of the brain :)
    oO0Oo Resident: I wonder if in the future, knowledge and understanding will reveal, or recognise that human nature (what we call consciousness) is affected on such subtle levels, such that current practices, for instance anesthetic practices, will be seen to have been cruel and perhaps harmful in certain ways. At the same time, we may learn to benefit with much less effort.
    Fox Monacular: that light up when you grab an apple, and when you see someone else grab an apple
    Pila India: lol
    Fox Monacular: art has definitely screwed me up:)
    Pila India: if the planet survives long enough Sam
    oO0Oo Resident: sorry.. wordy and vaguely related
    Fox Monacular: ad my parents kept telling me not to listen to some types of music... I might have suffered some permanent damage:)
    Pila India: :)
    oO0Oo Resident: lol
    Fox Monacular: oups, I just noticed you were taking about anesthetic... i read aesthetic
    Calvino Rabeni: hehe
    Fox Monacular: lol
    Calvino Rabeni: well that's grist for the dream mill .. or from it
    Pila India: your aesthetics is your parents anaesthtiec
    Fox Monacular: hehege
    Fox Monacular: :)
    oO0Oo Resident: with a little cosmetic surgery, the one becomes the other ;)
    Fox Monacular: sorry about it
    oO0Oo Resident: is that you biting my sandwich Cal?
    Paradise Tennant: smiles :) going to have say thank you for a lively conversation but I have a very early morning so going to scoot :) namaste my friends :)
    --BELL--


    oO0Oo Resident: namaste para
    Pila India: bye Paradise
    stevenaia Michinaga: night Paradise
    Pila India also scoots -- bfn
    oO0Oo Resident: quantum poof
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye Pila and Paradise :)
    oO0Oo Resident: bye Pila
    Fox Monacular: bye Paradise and Pila
    stevenaia Michinaga: time to go too
    Fox Monacular: take care Steve:)
    stevenaia Michinaga: night, wonderful evening topic
    oO0Oo Resident: bye Stevenaia :)
    oO0Oo Resident: gtsy
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm thinking of a reading list for the log .. anyone have some suggestions?
    Fox Monacular: :) reading list?
    Calvino Rabeni: Intersubjectivity is a pretty slippery topic
    Fox Monacular: seriously
    Calvino Rabeni: yes, something relating to the edges around what we've been discussing
    Fox Monacular: hmmm...
    Calvino Rabeni: embodiment, intersubjectivity, subversive science, dreams
    Hokon Cazalet: =)
    Fox Monacular: sounds like a bibliography to my thesis:)
    oO0Oo Resident: 'seeking the sequitur in silence' by Di Scursive
    Calvino Rabeni: And here you hoped to get away from it all ... sorry :)
    Fox Monacular: hehehe, no it's ok\
    Hokon Cazalet: =)
    Fox Monacular: i accpet that there's no escape
    Fox Monacular: not even in dreams
    Calvino Rabeni: distributed intelligence
    Calvino Rabeni: maybe no escape, but there's always "outsourcing" :)
    Fox Monacular: you know, it's funny, by husband has the same supervisor... just defended his thesis... so i talk about deams at work, then come home and talk about dreams, and hten go to bed and dream.... wake up and read stuff on dreams
    Calvino Rabeni: living your dreams, they call it
    Calvino Rabeni: Total immersion
    Fox Monacular: my perspective is not at all objective anymore
    Fox Monacular: i need a reality check
    oO0Oo Resident: that's what i call a dream career
    Fox Monacular: hahaha, yes, you can say that
    Calvino Rabeni: http://www.amazon.com/Global-Brain-Evolution-Mass-Century/dp/0471419192/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1303097558&sr=8-1
    Calvino Rabeni: http://www.amazon.com/Genius-Within-Discovering-Intelligence-Living/dp/B0002D6CIO
    Calvino Rabeni: http://www.amazon.com/Body-Mind-Bodily-Meaning-Imagination/dp/0226403181
    Calvino Rabeni: Not sure those are reality checks, exactly
    Fox Monacular: global brain wow
    Fox Monacular: are we there yet, really?
    Calvino Rabeni: according to Bloom we've been there for the history of life on the planet
    Calvino Rabeni: it
    Calvino Rabeni: is a matter of the way intelligence is to be understood
    Fox Monacular: Johnson, is it the same who worked with Lakoff?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Calvino Rabeni: embodied metaphors as a basis for language, etc.
    oO0Oo Resident: looks at Hokon and giggles
    Fox Monacular: yes
    Hokon Cazalet: AHH!!!!
    Fox Monacular: I personally like Evan Thompson
    Fox Monacular: mind in life
    Fox Monacular: and embodied mind with Varela and Eleanor Rosch
    oO0Oo Resident: these books look truly amazing
    Fox Monacular: for intersubjectivity i'm reading dav zahavi right now
    Calvino Rabeni: http://www.amazon.com/Mind-Life-Biology-Phenomenology-Sciences/dp/0674057511?ie=UTF8&qid=1303097976
    Fox Monacular: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: Great, thanks :)
    Fox Monacular: http://www.amazon.com/Subjectivity-Selfhood-Investigating-First-Person-Perspective/dp/0262740346?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1303098027
    Fox Monacular: that's the one I'm reading now on intersubjectivity
    Hokon Cazalet: oh cool =)
    Fox Monacular: but for deeper stuff I like Lacan
    Fox Monacular: and Rudolf Otto "the idea of the holy"
    Fox Monacular: The Big Other (from Lacan)
    Calvino Rabeni: Do you have a recommendation for something by zahavi?
    Fox Monacular: the previous amazon link is zahavi:)
    Fox Monacular: I haven't read anything else yet, except for articles, and I have a terrible memory for articles... :( and you need a university account to access them anyway
    Fox Monacular: http://www.amazon.com/Autopoiesis-Cognition-Realization-Studies-Philosophy/dp/9027710163?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1303098127
    Fox Monacular: this is the one I really like... where it all started
    Calvino Rabeni: I've been finding that more and more recently, running into those dreaded "SagePubs" pages
    Fox Monacular: but it is really hardcore philosophical:)
    Calvino Rabeni: Thanks :)
    Fox Monacular: yes... and Sage pubs is just one publishing house...
    Hokon Cazalet: brb food
    Fox Monacular: there are more and more open access stuff, bt not quite enough yet
    Calvino Rabeni: Hardcore is okay sometimes, if it is worth it
    Calvino Rabeni: (but not "hardcore for hardcore's sake")
    Fox Monacular: :) yes, this one is worth it for sure
    --BELL--


    Fox Monacular: last article i submitted they asked me 'would you like it to be open access'?
    Calvino Rabeni: One thing I've always wished, that Google would have a search parameter to exclude things you have to pay for :)
    Calvino Rabeni: ah .. ?
    Fox Monacular: then i clicked yes and they told me it will cost $3000
    Fox Monacular: !
    Calvino Rabeni: ACK
    Fox Monacular: so i went back and clicked NO
    oO0Oo Resident: penalty for sharing?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes ,, sadly
    Hokon Cazalet: back
    Fox Monacular: a nice funciton with google scholar is that you can use it with your university subscription
    Fox Monacular: if you have one...
    oO0Oo Resident: wb Hokon
    Calvino Rabeni: and what do they have to offer or to threaten, such that you don't go somewhere else?
    Fox Monacular: well... it's all about the 'impact factor'
    Calvino Rabeni: nods
    Fox Monacular: so want to publish in established journals
    Fox Monacular: although idealstically, I would submit my stuff only to open-access
    Fox Monacular: but it is not a good idea for my resume... unfortunately
    Fox Monacular: i mean, my husband finished his thesis... and 1st place to send his articles? science and nature...
    Fox Monacular: got rejected, of course,
    Fox Monacular: but then went on to less 'prestigious'
    Fox Monacular: open access will be the last resort... sadly
    Fox Monacular: I hope it will change
    Hokon Cazalet: why did they get rejected?
    Fox Monacular: oh, they get rejectedin the 1st couple of days... they have such a crazy turnaround
    Fox Monacular: although his paper got an in-depth review in science
    Calvino Rabeni: I can't give an example, but my impression is there are growing numbers of open-access but well peer-reviewed publishing organizations
    Fox Monacular: yes, academic people are not happy with the publishing cost
    Fox Monacular: if you think about it - peer review means that other profs review papers
    Fox Monacular: profs are paid by universities
    Fox Monacular: not by publishing houses
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, it's a cooperative endeavor, could be of mutual benefit
    Fox Monacular: so profs and researchers and student write papers - paid by universities and/or grandts, and then profs/researchers review papers
    Fox Monacular: but the university has to pay to access it
    Fox Monacular: sounds like a baad bad system
    Calvino Rabeni: Would think the communication departments of some universities would like to experiment with open-access alternatives
    Fox Monacular: i believe some of these initiatives are already underway
    Fox Monacular: but it will take time to establish readership, pubmed-intexing and, of course, the impact factor
    oO0Oo Resident: hi carnage
    Lieble Cuttita: hello
    Hokon Cazalet: hiya =)
    Fox Monacular: I'll take to go now:) it's getting late here
    Hokon Cazalet: btw could i ask a quick question? i dont wanna divert the topic/thread; what does "autopoiesis" mean? ive tried figuring out what this word has meant for months and cant figure it out (saw the term as i scrolled up for convo i missed)
    Fox Monacular: thanks for the great discussion
    Calvino Rabeni: It means self-organizing
    Fox Monacular: oh, autopoiesis is a term from maturana and varela
    Calvino Rabeni: YW Fox, thanks to you too
    Hokon Cazalet: ohh cool, thats what im really into right now in phenomenology =)
    Fox Monacular: yes, refers to self-organizing systems
    Calvino Rabeni: I need to head out also
    Hokon Cazalet: aw ok
    oO0Oo Resident: tank you Hokon... really interesting, and ntsy
    Hokon Cazalet: i need to eat :??
    Calvino Rabeni: but thanks for the great discussion
    oO0Oo Resident: thanks Cal gtsy
    Fox Monacular: thermodynamically open, but closed enough to resist perturbations and maintain identity
    Hokon Cazalet: =) @ oO0Oo
    Calvino Rabeni: (I did that while sitting, Hokon)
    Hokon Cazalet: hehe
    Hokon Cazalet: ok fox
    Fox Monacular: good night, everyone:)
    Hokon Cazalet: can i use the term apart from physical systems? (asks calvino); byebye fox ty =)
    oO0Oo Resident: night Fox, and oops Hok... sorry
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes you can use "autopoeisis" that way
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Hokon Cazalet: cool =)
    Calvino Rabeni: or autopoietic
    Hokon Cazalet: I'm into rather "abstract" areas of phenomenology atm, didnt wanna misuse the term
    Calvino Rabeni: anyway, take care, see you all later
    Hokon Cazalet: byebye calvino, nice seeing ya again =)
    oO0Oo Resident: tc Cal :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye !
    Hokon Cazalet: brb gonna cut up pizza
    oO0Oo Resident: kk
    --BELL--


    oO0Oo Resident: hehe... remembers pizza in Hokon's profile
    oO0Oo Resident: heya Kuro
    oO0Oo Resident: I will wander Hokon, but enjoyed this talk very much, and will ask you another time if you would like to say something about how autopoeisis might apply to your studies of abstract phenomenology?
    oO0Oo Resident: gtsy... tc :)

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