2011.04.18 19:00 - In Between

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Eliza Madrigal, filling in for SophiaSharon. The comments are by Eliza Madrigal.

    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Hokon :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Alfred (though away)


    Eliza Madrigal: HI oO0Oo :)
    Alfred Kelberry: eliza! :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, you're awake Boxy
    Alfred Kelberry: um, sort of here :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)) Hi
    oO0Oo Resident: hiya Eliza, Boxy, Hokon :)
    Eliza Madrigal: You are rarely in an evening session... up late?
    Eliza Madrigal: Not sure if Hokon is afk, O :)
    Alfred Kelberry: yes, not my usual time
    Alfred Kelberry: sam! :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Hokon Cazalet: hi =)
    oO0Oo Resident: good to see ya pup :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Hokon :)
    Hokon Cazalet: sorry was afk preparing my pizza
    Alfred Kelberry: mmm
    Alfred Kelberry: i want some
    Eliza Madrigal: what sort ?
    Eliza Madrigal: that's a very cute leap, Boxy

    oO0Oo Resident recommends never looking at Hokon's profile if you are really hungry... lol
    Hokon Cazalet: hehe
    Eliza Madrigal: really... oh, well that settles it... :::::rushes to look:::
    oO0Oo Resident: that is if you enjoy pizza
    oO0Oo Resident: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: hah
    Eliza Madrigal: I do like pizza... thin and with mozzerella and tomatoes and basil leaves....
    Hokon Cazalet: =)
    Alfred Kelberry: *puts pizza on tomorrow's todo list*
    Hokon Cazalet: hehe
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    Eliza Madrigal wonders if there are topics tonight...
    oO0Oo Resident: hiya Susan gtsy
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Susan :)
    iwandertoo Resident: waves

    Eliza Madrigal: Hokon, do you do experimental sorts of phenomenology , ie subject/object reversals and such like?
    Hokon Cazalet: i use lucid dreaming quite a bit to do some experimental work
    oO0Oo Resident wonders if Hokon would like to say something about abstract phenomenology as it might relate to autopoeisis... but i may well not understand :(
    Hokon Cazalet: hehe
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh we all have this idea tonight :))
    Eliza Madrigal: well , if Susan and Boxy are okay with the idea too :D
    Eliza Madrigal: I'd love to hear more

    Hokon Cazalet: ive one time in tampering with in-between states gotten myself to be-time instead of being-in-the-world, was a pretty freaky but awesome experience
    Eliza Madrigal: to be-time?
    Hokon Cazalet: yeah,m instead of feeling like i was in my body, i was time-consciousness itself
    oO0Oo Resident: have to say, that's he first time i've heard someone say that lol
    Hokon Cazalet: (subjective time, not objective)
    Eliza Madrigal: :))
    Hokon Cazalet: hehe yeah ive tried to do find others whove had that kind of "mystical" experience before, havent found it yet
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, I'm wondering... being time was being out of body?
    Hokon Cazalet: it seems quite a few become one with space, but havent found others who have with time
    Hokon Cazalet: sort of, i felt time-consciousness was my body
    Hokon Cazalet: a certain point in the past, and in the future being the "edges"

    Eliza Madrigal: Hm... this is very interesting...
    Eliza Madrigal: due to an exploration, in a dream, or spontaneous?
    Hokon Cazalet: =) i almost forgot the experience, but luckly i kept it in memory (thats a problem with my method of experimentation, dream memory sucks)
    Eliza Madrigal: ah, so dreaming...
    Hokon Cazalet: what happened was i was playing with in between states an hour before i had to get up for work, and i managed to stay conscious while transistioning from "wake" to "sleep" states
    Hokon Cazalet: (or it felt that way)
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Hokon Cazalet: had a lot of odd qualities and paradoxes, the whole experience, which fits what ive begun to read about time lately
    Eliza Madrigal: hmmm, yes
    Eliza Madrigal: I've certainly felt that before... that our whole notion of the way time flows is backwards a bit.. or...
    Hokon Cazalet: like having a unified sense of self, yet perpetually displaced as well (forever falling into the past)
    Eliza Madrigal: hm
    Hokon Cazalet: well i think a lot of our notions regarding time are naive, or superficial


    Alfred Kelberry: hokon, i find bordering states uncomfortable
    Hokon Cazalet: they can be
    Hokon Cazalet: sometimes when i tamper with inbetween states i can get extremely afriad or bring up old fears
    Hokon Cazalet: a few nights ago i was afraid that i was about to die
    Eliza Madrigal: and how did you handle that?
    Hokon Cazalet: was pretty frightened, i stopped doing what i was doing in the dream, and felt better
    Eliza Madrigal nods, seems good not to push...
    Hokon Cazalet: yeah, well and pushing too hard causes (for me) the dream-space integrety to fall apart
    Hokon Cazalet: i.e. wake up
    Alfred Kelberry: yes, i get that too. it feels like you have difficulty breathing as it slows down.
    Alfred Kelberry: it's a peculiar state nonetheless
    Hokon Cazalet: yup
    Eliza Madrigal: a lucid dream Alf?

    Alfred Kelberry: i'm not sure what it is
    Alfred Kelberry: the moment before you wake up
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Alfred Kelberry: sometimes it slows down a bit and then you notice it. or become aware of.
    Hokon Cazalet: yup
    Eliza Madrigal: I like to pay attention to a certain quality there... I used to say it was thick and heavy...
    Eliza Madrigal: but seems to change over time
    Eliza Madrigal: rather than trying to hold onto the content...
    Eliza Madrigal: but this sense of being time...hm...
    Hokon Cazalet: =)

    Eliza Madrigal: I'm actually waiting for a book from Katagiri on time...
    Eliza Madrigal: based on Dogen's Ugi writings
    Hokon Cazalet: cool, i havent heard of him before eliza
    Eliza Madrigal waves to Observrm :)
    oO0Oo Resident: Dainin?
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, I believe so
    oO0Oo Resident: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dainin_Katagiri
    Eliza Madrigal: :))
    Eliza Madrigal: yes
    Hokon Cazalet: ty oO0Oo
    oO0Oo Resident: hi observerm... gsy :)
    oO0Oo Resident: *gtsy
    Eliza Madrigal: thank you

    Alfred Kelberry: it's fun when you start waking up, but the dream is so nice that you go back, but it's too late and it fades and you pout in a dream :) this funny rl connection
    Eliza Madrigal: hehe
    Alfred Kelberry: then of course something else catches your attention
    oO0Oo Resident: yes Boxy, i experience that as a negotiation between waking and sleeping consciousness, and an excersise in not too tight not too loose
    Alfred Kelberry: :)
    Hokon Cazalet: hehe yup alfred

    Hokon Cazalet: brb need to check my food
    Alfred Kelberry: what? another pizza?! :)
    Alfred Kelberry: also, my creativness awakens in a dream
    oO0Oo Resident: maybe she went back in time...
    Eliza Madrigal grins
    Hokon Cazalet: hehe
    oO0Oo Resident: hehe

    Eliza Madrigal: ideas and insights, Alfred?
    Alfred Kelberry: i instantly draw images, people's faces, various objects that i've never seen or thought of before


    Alfred Kelberry: i wouldn't say ideas or insights. i don't really take anything out of it. or so i think :)
    Eliza Madrigal: well you seem to find some joy!
    oO0Oo Resident: feels satisfying ... what you described Boxy
    Alfred Kelberry: it's just graphics that pop up in my head
    Alfred Kelberry: the funny thing, i don't know where it comes from :)
    Eliza Madrigal: do you try to sketch them out?

    Alfred Kelberry: it's like i'm an observer and it just happens :)
    Eliza Madrigal: mmmm
    Alfred Kelberry: no... i hardly remember anything
    Alfred Kelberry: or even remember dreams
    Eliza Madrigal: how peculiar and neat
    Alfred Kelberry: it mostly happens during falling asleep phase, whatever it's called

    Eliza Madrigal: that's a wonderful spot... hm, does it have a name?
    Alfred Kelberry: we should ask maxine :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Hokon Cazalet: brb checking oven
    Eliza Madrigal: hehe
    Eliza Madrigal: it is where I heard my buddha gecko, that spot...
    Alfred Kelberry: oh?
    Eliza Madrigal: wonderful lingering sort of in between place
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, I won't bore with the story but I talked about it in a Chronicles interview
    Hokon Cazalet: back
    Alfred Kelberry: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: basically heard a gecko as though a heavenly chorus :)

    oO0Oo Resident imagines Hokon tampering with time in order to eat back to back pizzas forever, in a wacky kind of italiano groundhog day dinner roundabout
    Eliza Madrigal: hahahah
    iwandertoo Resident: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: pizza within a pizza within a pizza
    Alfred Kelberry: ah, italian groundhog day would be nice

    Eliza Madrigal: I'm very curious to see your dream sketches now Alfred :)
    Alfred Kelberry: :)
    oO0Oo Resident: chorus within a gecko within a buddha within an Eliza?
    Alfred Kelberry: when i was little i did some abstract drawings
    Alfred Kelberry: sadly, none of them survived
    Eliza Madrigal: :) quite a question, that
    Eliza Madrigal: Aw...
    Eliza Madrigal thinks t store away son's sketch books
    Alfred Kelberry: yes, good idea :)

    Eliza Madrigal: it may be that you sort of pre-figure in sleep, too
    Alfred Kelberry: i can't do it now
    Alfred Kelberry: i sort of tried
    Alfred Kelberry: but it was so easy as a kid
    Eliza Madrigal: ah, maybe our talking about it here will bring it up again... never know :)
    Alfred Kelberry: :)
    Alfred Kelberry: could be
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: so many mysteries

    oO0Oo Resident wonders wht Susan might be thinking... if anything
    iwandertoo Resident: listening
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Alfred Kelberry: :)
    oO0Oo Resident: you do that well
    Alfred Kelberry: yes, we should learn :)
    oO0Oo Resident: can feel the attentiveness somehow
    Eliza Madrigal: :) we do


    Alfred Kelberry: *thinks: gecko buddha... that's really bizarre* :)
    Eliza Madrigal admits to giggling through the pause :)
    Hokon Cazalet: =)
    Eliza Madrigal: and thinks to say to Boxy "mu" :)

    Eliza Madrigal: hm... may we come back to the autopoeisis (sp?) question?
    Eliza Madrigal: Samuo (oo0oo) wonders if Hokon would like to say something about abstract phenomenology as it might relate to autopoeisis... but i may well not understand :(
    Hokon Cazalet: oh yeah
    Hokon Cazalet: eh, dunno, it'd be better fit in an essay
    Hokon Cazalet: (short one =P)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    oO0Oo Resident: :)
    oO0Oo Resident: that. i can understand
    oO0Oo Resident: ;
    Hokon Cazalet: =)

    Hokon Cazalet: brb gonna cut pizza
    Eliza Madrigal: how would you describe autopoeisis itself?
    oO0Oo Resident: hahahahaha
    Eliza Madrigal: hah
    Hokon Cazalet: um calvino explained it pretty well, a self-orginizing system
    oO0Oo Resident: i got you babe
    Alfred Kelberry: life
    Hokon Cazalet: and autopoiesis being the act of self-generation/originizing i think
    Hokon Cazalet: brb
    Eliza Madrigal: Eos sometimes talks about generating an organ of perception, ah
    Eliza Madrigal: so in a dream... in subject/object reversal...
    Eliza Madrigal: hm, can't seem to form that question :)
    Eliza Madrigal: maybe it can form itself

    oO0Oo Resident: the shift beween perspectives or lack of reference points could be the self organising result?
    Eliza Madrigal: that's helpful
    Eliza Madrigal: not too tight not too loose again
    Eliza Madrigal: somehow this relates to dralas, giggles

    oO0Oo Resident: a release of sorts from how we make we into 'the' reference?

    Alfred Kelberry: that's how you tune a guitar :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    oO0Oo Resident: boxy?
    Alfred Kelberry: "not too tight not too loose"
    Eliza Madrigal: enough tight for composure
    oO0Oo Resident: then the music can continue ;)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)))

    Hokon Cazalet: back with food =)
    oO0Oo Resident: deja vu
    Eliza Madrigal: ding
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    oO0Oo Resident: lol

    Eliza Madrigal: thank you for a lovely session...
    oO0Oo Resident: if i hear Hokon's pzza timer go off again, i am not going to be able to stop laughing
    Hokon Cazalet: aw byebye eliza, nice to chat with you once more =)
    Hokon Cazalet: lol

                         Boxy begins to play a very lovely tune on guitar... 

    Eliza Madrigal: ah.. lingering
    iwandertoo Resident: waves
    Eliza Madrigal: :)) Boxy
    oO0Oo Resident: :)))
    Alfred Kelberry: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: geckos can sing and boxies can play guitar
    oO0Oo Resident: beautiful
    Eliza Madrigal: lullabye in this case, thanks Alfred, so nice :))
    Hokon Cazalet: =)
    Eliza Madrigal: Goodnight friends, waves again
    oO0Oo Resident: goodnight Eliza
    Alfred Kelberry: poof :)


    oO0Oo Resident: for whatever reason... i am reminded of how extreme situations often melt the petty differences between people... sweeping away subtle annoyances that linger sometimes
    Hokon Cazalet: yup
    oO0Oo Resident: a sudden and refreshing repriority
    oO0Oo Resident: music can do that too
    Hokon Cazalet: =)
    Hokon Cazalet: i love music, hehe i was just listening to some
    oO0Oo Resident: :)


    Alfred Kelberry: i'm off folks :)
    Alfred Kelberry: thank you
    iwandertoo Resident: waves
    oO0Oo Resident: ty Boxy .. ntsy.. beautiful guitar playing
    Hokon Cazalet: sorry im kinda away a bit =P
    oO0Oo Resident: no worries Hokon... not a problem
    Hokon Cazalet: =)
    oO0Oo Resident: just being
    oO0Oo Resident: together
    oO0Oo Resident: :)
    Hokon Cazalet: =)


    iwandertoo Resident: waves.
    iwandertoo Resident: be well
    oO0Oo Resident: tc susan
    oO0Oo Resident: gtsy
    oO0Oo Resident: i think me too... must::find::pizza!!!
    Hokon Cazalet: lol
    Hokon Cazalet: =)
    oO0Oo Resident: hehehehhe
    oO0Oo Resident: ntsy you Hokon... thanks for the nice sitting together :)
    Hokon Cazalet: yw =)
    oO0Oo Resident: see you again
    Hokon Cazalet: yup =)
    oO0Oo Resident: :)

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    While I wouldn't trade my experiences over the last day for anything in the world, I really would've liked to have made this session! The sleep stages you are referring to at the beginning of this session is hypnagogia (sleep onset) or hypnopompic (awakening from sleep) and are states I've been struggling to understand my entire life. I would've liked to talk about it. :)
    Posted 11:16, 19 Apr 2011
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