2011.04.21 13:00 - would no-structure be scary?

The Guardian for this meeting was Lia Rikugun. The comments are by Lia Rikugun.

Lia Rikugun: hello hokon and anonymous
Hokon Cazalet: hiya =)
Lia Rikugun: how are you doing?
Hokon Cazalet: i just woke up :Þ
Hokon Cazalet: you?
Lia Rikugun: ah nice, i will go to bed in 1 hour :)
Hokon Cazalet: =)
Lia Rikugun: so hokon where are you?
Hokon Cazalet: usa, midwest
Lia Rikugun: aha
Lia Rikugun: have you two been here before? I am not sure I have met you?
Hokon Cazalet: i have been
Lia Rikugun: ok great, and you anonymous?
Lia Rikugun: maybe away
Hokon Cazalet: yup
Lia Rikugun: so hokon do you have any topic on your mind?
Hokon Cazalet: not atm
Lia Rikugun: what brought you to PaB?
Hokon Cazalet: seemed like a nice group of people
Lia Rikugun: have you tried out the 9 seconds practice?
Lia Rikugun: how long do you know about PaB?
Hokon Cazalet: about a year now
Lia Rikugun: ah ok
Hokon Cazalet: though ive only begun to visit regularly about a week ago
Lia Rikugun: but somehow I never met you
Lia Rikugun: or did I?
Lia Rikugun: ok
Hokon Cazalet: the past year i visited maybe once a month or so
Lia Rikugun: i see :) well great to have you here now
Hokon Cazalet: =)

feeling it being real in a dream, being scared of the unstructured real-seeming dream world

Lia Rikugun: i had a weird experience
Lia Rikugun: maybe I can tell you about it
Hokon Cazalet: okies
Lia Rikugun: and you tell me what you think
Lia Rikugun: :)
Hokon Cazalet: =)
Lia Rikugun: two or three days ago
Lia Rikugun: I was dreaming
Lia Rikugun: and in the dream I had the sensation that what I was living was completely real
Lia Rikugun: so I was fully in this dream
Hokon Cazalet: ive had that before a few times
Lia Rikugun: but for me it felt like reality
Lia Rikugun: and I was extremely scared
Lia Rikugun: because there were no rules
Lia Rikugun: no structure I could rely on
Hokon Cazalet: whoa
Lia Rikugun: I knew anything could happen
Lia Rikugun: and this felt real
Hokon Cazalet: hi iwandertoo
Hokon Cazalet: =)
Lia Rikugun: hello iwandertoo
Lia Rikugun: so i somehow forced myself to wake up
iwandertoo Resident: waves
Hokon Cazalet: ive felt scared in vivid dreams before, but usually the opposite that something seemed inevitable to occur
Lia Rikugun: i dont know how but then awake it was ok again
Lia Rikugun: so something specific was happening and you couldnt stop it?
Wol Euler: evening all
Lia Rikugun: hello wol
iwandertoo Resident: waves

no structure - how to predict?

Hokon Cazalet: by "no structure", how did you experience that was the case? (yeah when i wake up im better)
Hokon Cazalet: yes
Hokon Cazalet: hi wol
Lia Rikugun: anything could have appeared or disappeared
Lia Rikugun: there were not these rules that exist in reality
Hokon Cazalet: oh that would be a bit distressing, no way to predict or manage the enviroment
Lia Rikugun: yes exactly
Lia Rikugun: and in combination with thinking this is reality it was so scary
Hokon Cazalet: yup =(
Lia Rikugun: but interesting
Lia Rikugun: lets me think
Lia Rikugun: (I had a dream in which I felt fully being in, and I thought this was reality)
Hokon Cazalet: i havent had a dream like that before, yeah it is interesting, makes me think about the way we normally interact with the world, causality and predictability are huge in feeling secure or embedded in the world, to have that gone one would feel helpless
Lia Rikugun: yes always looking out
Lia Rikugun: but inreal life things happen too
Lia Rikugun: that you cannot predict
Hokon Cazalet: yup
Lia Rikugun: so why was i soo scared?
Lia Rikugun: why not curious?
Lia Rikugun: :)
--BELL--
Lia Rikugun: maybe next time
Hokon Cazalet: well i think its a basic animal reaction, a feeling of loosing control over one's enviroment, thatd be a basic guess of mine (though cant be sure its correct, i dont know you in-depth, so could be other causes)
Lia Rikugun: my boyfriend had experienced a false awakening :)
Lia Rikugun: which is also a funny phenomenon

loosing control and fear - smile at fear :)

Hokon Cazalet: a few times in rl where ive felt i lost total control over my enviroment, i felt an existential style fear and anguish
Hokon Cazalet: hehe
Lia Rikugun: oh
Lia Rikugun: how did you overcome the fear?
SophiaSharon Larnia: hi everyone
Wol Euler: hello sharon
Lia Rikugun: hi sophiasharon
Hokon Cazalet: i didnt, the situation eventually went away and i was ok (sometimes though to more excessive experiences still haunt me)
Hokon Cazalet: the more*
Lia Rikugun: hm
Lia Rikugun: fear is strange
Lia Rikugun: i bought an intersting book
Lia Rikugun: smile at fear
Lia Rikugun: i really liked reading it, but applying it is not easy for me :)
Hokon Cazalet: i guess the way i deal with fear is to be absorbed into the fear, but also "take charge" of the situation (internally), sort of the aristotelain notion of courage, act in spite of fear but dont negate the fear (no fear you'd be reckless)
Wol Euler nods.
Lia Rikugun: yes or use it somehow as catalysator
Hokon Cazalet: i guess i act obstinant =P
SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
Hokon Cazalet: yup
Lia Rikugun: get more energy out of it
Hokon Cazalet: use fear as a way to enbolden myself
Hokon Cazalet: (what i try to do anyways =P)
Lia Rikugun: :)
Lia Rikugun: so I am wondering, to come back to structure and no structure
Hokon Cazalet: ok
Lia Rikugun: how can we put this in context with PaB?
Lia Rikugun: I always get the impression the idea is to free yourself from structures
Hokon Cazalet: i think it has a lot of potential for good thought, not quite sure how to incorporate it atm though (thinks a bit)
SophiaSharon Larnia: (sorry, got rl stuff come up just as I logged in, bye for now)
Wol Euler: bye! take care
Lia Rikugun: but if you get scared what do you do?
Lia Rikugun: byebye

no structure and freedom

Hokon Cazalet: well having no structure at all, you wouldnt be free, as freedom denoates a structure itself, being able to act/be free of, something determinate has freedom
iwandertoo Resident: waves
Hokon Cazalet: bye wol =)
Hokon Cazalet: oh sophia, sorry
Hokon Cazalet: hehe
Wol Euler: not me :)
Hokon Cazalet cant read :Þ
Wol Euler: np :)
Hokon Cazalet: =)
Lia Rikugun: thats true, so to be free you need a structure to free yourself from
Hokon Cazalet: if the world had no precictablity, thered be no-place to enact your freedom
Lia Rikugun: taht is what you are saying?
Hokon Cazalet: no
Hokon Cazalet: that freedom itself is a structure
Lia Rikugun: i am not sure if i understand
Lia Rikugun: how is freedom a structure
Hokon Cazalet: hehe its a bit paradoxical, um, to be free something must have that freedom, lets use an analogy with common experience: to be free to eat what you want means no rules or laws inhibiting your desires, yet without the structures of causality or desire itself, you wouldnt be free (no causality you couldnt will your hands to move and grasp the food, without desire there's nothing to have freedom)
Hokon Cazalet: the concept of freedom requires some sort of prior structure for the concept to have meaning, something determinate that has freedom and the ability to express freedom
Lia Rikugun: i think this is what I meant :)
Lia Rikugun: oh no wait ther is a difference
Lia Rikugun: ah i am confused
Lia Rikugun: haha
Hokon Cazalet: well its not that we need a structure to free ourselves from, we need a strcutrue to be able to have the possibility of freedom to begin with and con-current with such freedom
Hokon Cazalet: without the law of causality, we would have no possibility for physical freedoms
Lia Rikugun: yes i see
Hokon Cazalet: to even utter "i am free" requires rules of thought, grammar etc
--BELL--
Hokon Cazalet: i guess an easy way: you need a sandbox to play in =)
Lia Rikugun: brb sorry
Hokon Cazalet: i need to go get ready for work, have fun guys =)
iwandertoo Resident: waves
Hokon Cazalet waves back =)
Lia Rikugun: back
Lia Rikugun: byebye hokon
Wol Euler: bye hokon, take care
Lia Rikugun: (sorry had t organize a family meeting for tomorrow)
Wol Euler: wb
Lia Rikugun: (my fatehr just called :)
Lia Rikugun: so what did we talk about
Wol Euler: we waited for you :)
iwandertoo Resident: :)
Lia Rikugun: freeing ourselves
Lia Rikugun: and without structure ther is no such thing as freedom or imprisonment
Lia Rikugun: if i understood correctly
Wol Euler: I'm not sure I followed that correctly :)
iwandertoo Resident: i didn't follow it
Lia Rikugun: HAHA
Lia Rikugun: Iam just guessing

unhooking hooks is scary

Lia Rikugun: so i think my question was
Lia Rikugun: in PaB we try to unhook the hooks
Wol Euler listens.
Lia Rikugun: leave the tructure
Lia Rikugun: structure
Lia Rikugun: but then it gets scary
Lia Rikugun: how can I put both together?
Lia Rikugun: but maybe I misunderstood
Wol Euler: what are the "hooks"?
iwandertoo Resident: i'm not resonating with what you are saying...but there is contradiction somewhere causing the fear
Wol Euler: attachments?
Lia Rikugun: attachments, preconceptions, rules
Wol Euler: okay, so dropping those, yes we can agree so far :)
Lia Rikugun: iwandertoo what do you mean with contradiction causing the fear?
Lia Rikugun: but rules are also physical rules
iwandertoo Resident: you are at odds with yourself
iwandertoo Resident: what is the definition of fear?
Lia Rikugun: maybe i give you the experience i had
Lia Rikugun: I am not sure if you were there when I told it
Lia Rikugun: and the questions that came from it
Lia Rikugun: I had a dreamin which I was truely being in
--BELL--
Lia Rikugun: and it felt like being the reality to me
Lia Rikugun: so I was in this dream state
Alfred Kelberry: wuff!
Lia Rikugun: and it was very clear and real
Alfred Kelberry: hi :)
Lia Rikugun: wuff wuff hi alfred
iwandertoo Resident: waves
Wol Euler: hello boxy
Alfred Kelberry: lia the cute tail :)
Lia Rikugun: the problem was, there were no structures as in RL
Alfred Kelberry: woly in ny?
Wol Euler: not yet
Lia Rikugun: I realized that anything could happen, anything could appear or disappear
Wol Euler: two more sleeps :)
Alfred Kelberry: one more sleep?
Alfred Kelberry: ah, ok
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Lia Rikugun: and this was very scary
Alfred Kelberry: um, sorry, lia
Lia Rikugun: so i forced myself to wake up
Wol Euler nods.
Lia Rikugun: and now i am wondering
Lia Rikugun: how does this scaryness and no-striucture fit together
Lia Rikugun: how can I feel no-structure without scaryness
iwandertoo Resident: why do you want to feel "no-structure"?
Lia Rikugun: i dont know
Lia Rikugun: :)
Lia Rikugun: anything is possible
Alfred Kelberry: life is quite chaotic and could be refered to as no-structure at times :)
Lia Rikugun: and free
Wol Euler: perhaps the scary part of htat is not knowing "the right thing to do"
Lia Rikugun: yes I agree alfred :)
Alfred Kelberry: many people feel uneasy about "no structure" in their lives
Wol Euler: if there are no rules to follow, then anything might be right -- or wrong
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Lia Rikugun: how would it be like living in a dream and this being your reality?
Alfred Kelberry: i think the culprit here is the ability to plan ahead, predict
Alfred Kelberry: in a structured setting it's much easier
Lia Rikugun: yes you can relax
Alfred Kelberry: then in no-structure you panic
Alfred Kelberry: omg, what's going to happen
Wol Euler nods.
Lia Rikugun: but why not going with the flow
Wol Euler: one gets used to being in a small box, where the edges are known
Lia Rikugun: in no structure and not trying to control
Alfred Kelberry: lia, i think mindfulness practices help to come to harmony with that natural flow
Lia Rikugun: yes i think i try to control
Lia Rikugun: maybe thats it
Alfred Kelberry: no, not control :)
Alfred Kelberry: but let go :)
Lia Rikugun: so how to do that? in one sentence :)
Alfred Kelberry: our conscious control may often ruin the smooth inner workings :)
Alfred Kelberry: um...
iwandertoo Resident: believe in yourself
Alfred Kelberry: susan :)
Lia Rikugun: yes you break connection with your inner feelings

Alfred Kelberry: zon!
Lia Rikugun: hey hey zon
Zon Kwan: hello there
Wol Euler: hello zon
iwandertoo Resident: waves
Alfred Kelberry: wuff!
Lia Rikugun: wiff
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Lia Rikugun: wrrroaaff
Wol Euler chuckles.
Alfred Kelberry: lia is a bark specialist :)
Lia Rikugun: so what did I say ;)?
Alfred Kelberry: um...
Lia Rikugun: obviously some wise words :D
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Alfred Kelberry: you're all grey to me, except zon :/
Lia Rikugun: sorry
Wol Euler: get a better computer, boxy :)
Zon Kwan: yes im bright
Wol Euler: or a faster internet connetion
Alfred Kelberry: got both :)
Wol Euler smiles and shrugs.
Alfred Kelberry: the next step is getting a sli setup :)
Alfred Kelberry: e.g. 2 gpus
--BELL--
iwandertoo Resident: waves. best to everyone.
Wol Euler: bye susan
Alfred Kelberry: meep, susan
Lia Rikugun: bye
Zon Kwan: flies amd waves...
Alfred Kelberry: the royal wedding is royally annoying - it's everywhere!
Lia Rikugun: wow i didnt seeanything about it
Lia Rikugun: you watch too much TV
Lia Rikugun: :)
Wol Euler: :)
Lia Rikugun: (I am teasing alfred)
Alfred Kelberry: i do read news :)
Lia Rikugun: hehe
Lia Rikugun: so whats happening with the married couple
Alfred Kelberry: no idea
Wol Euler: are they married already?
Alfred Kelberry: i stop reading when i see "royal"
Wol Euler: :)
Lia Rikugun: hehe
Lia Rikugun: but you live in the UK?
Alfred Kelberry: nope
Lia Rikugun: the US
Alfred Kelberry: is it a quiz? :)
Lia Rikugun: i will continue guessing
Lia Rikugun: :)
Alfred Kelberry: well, you're going to guess eventually :)
Lia Rikugun: so the US
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Lia Rikugun: wellwell
Lia Rikugun: i think I will go to bed
Alfred Kelberry: is there a meeting at 2 pm?
Lia Rikugun: big family meeting tomorrow :)
Alfred Kelberry: night, lia :)
Lia Rikugun: so have a good night/day
Lia Rikugun: and wol have fun in NYC!!!
Wol Euler: ty
Lia Rikugun: are you a tourist there?
Wol Euler: happy easter, everyone
Alfred Kelberry: ny is not much fun
Wol Euler: yes, touristing, and seeing a few operas
Lia Rikugun: i love it there
Wol Euler nods.
Lia Rikugun: go to chinatown: the vegetarian dimsum place
Lia Rikugun: and yes operas!!
Alfred Kelberry: you like operas, woly?
Wol Euler: I do
Alfred Kelberry: an expert?
Lia Rikugun: ohh and I know a lovely gallery
Lia Rikugun: "die neue Gallerie"
Wol Euler: I don't consider myself expert at anything
Lia Rikugun: on 5th ave and 86th street or something
Wol Euler makes a note.
Lia Rikugun: you have been to NYC before?
Wol Euler: many tiumes :)
Wol Euler: *times
Lia Rikugun: yeay :) will you see Pema?
Alfred Kelberry: maybe i should give opera one more try
Wol Euler: :)
Lia Rikugun: maybe ghe is in japan
Wol Euler: no need to strain yourself
Lia Rikugun: well well
Lia Rikugun: i will go to bed you two
Wol Euler: no,he's in san francisco with stim
Lia Rikugun: happy easter if you are celebrating
Wol Euler: happy easter, lia
Lia Rikugun: byebye
Wol Euler: take care
Alfred Kelberry: are there easter eggs in sl?
Wol Euler: probably :)
Alfred Kelberry: so...
Alfred Kelberry: off we go?
Wol Euler: if you know where to find the ...
Wol Euler: *them
Alfred Kelberry: what?!
Alfred Kelberry: aga?!
Wol Euler: sneaky aggers is sneaky.
Alfred Kelberry: ok, she's hiding
Wol Euler: camming in :)
Alfred Kelberry: ha!
Alfred Kelberry: sneaky indeed
Wol Euler laughs.
Alfred Kelberry: wait
Alfred Kelberry: she can't
Alfred Kelberry: the nose is hidden
Wol Euler: (for the log: Aggers is not present, but is nonetheless beeping Boxy's nose)
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Wol Euler: rude dog.
--BELL--
Alfred Kelberry: i've hidden it in woly's jacket :)
Alfred Kelberry: talkign to aga :)
Alfred Kelberry: oh, it's ways of knowing
Alfred Kelberry: let's go
Wol Euler: yeah
Alfred Kelberry: ok, follow me
Alfred Kelberry: :)