2011.04.21 13:00 - would no-structure be scary?

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Lia Rikugun. The comments are by Lia Rikugun.

    Lia Rikugun: hello hokon and anonymous
    Hokon Cazalet: hiya =)
    Lia Rikugun: how are you doing?
    Hokon Cazalet: i just woke up :Þ
    Hokon Cazalet: you?
    Lia Rikugun: ah nice, i will go to bed in 1 hour :)
    Hokon Cazalet: =)
    Lia Rikugun: so hokon where are you?
    Hokon Cazalet: usa, midwest
    Lia Rikugun: aha
    Lia Rikugun: have you two been here before? I am not sure I have met you?
    Hokon Cazalet: i have been
    Lia Rikugun: ok great, and you anonymous?
    Lia Rikugun: maybe away
    Hokon Cazalet: yup
    Lia Rikugun: so hokon do you have any topic on your mind?
    Hokon Cazalet: not atm
    Lia Rikugun: what brought you to PaB?
    Hokon Cazalet: seemed like a nice group of people
    Lia Rikugun: have you tried out the 9 seconds practice?
    Lia Rikugun: how long do you know about PaB?
    Hokon Cazalet: about a year now
    Lia Rikugun: ah ok
    Hokon Cazalet: though ive only begun to visit regularly about a week ago
    Lia Rikugun: but somehow I never met you
    Lia Rikugun: or did I?
    Lia Rikugun: ok
    Hokon Cazalet: the past year i visited maybe once a month or so
    Lia Rikugun: i see :) well great to have you here now
    Hokon Cazalet: =)


    feeling it being real in a dream, being scared of the unstructured real-seeming dream world

    Lia Rikugun: i had a weird experience
    Lia Rikugun: maybe I can tell you about it
    Hokon Cazalet: okies
    Lia Rikugun: and you tell me what you think
    Lia Rikugun: :)
    Hokon Cazalet: =)
    Lia Rikugun: two or three days ago
    Lia Rikugun: I was dreaming
    Lia Rikugun: and in the dream I had the sensation that what I was living was completely real
    Lia Rikugun: so I was fully in this dream
    Hokon Cazalet: ive had that before a few times
    Lia Rikugun: but for me it felt like reality
    Lia Rikugun: and I was extremely scared
    Lia Rikugun: because there were no rules
    Lia Rikugun: no structure I could rely on
    Hokon Cazalet: whoa
    Lia Rikugun: I knew anything could happen
    Lia Rikugun: and this felt real
    Hokon Cazalet: hi iwandertoo
    Hokon Cazalet: =)
    Lia Rikugun: hello iwandertoo
    Lia Rikugun: so i somehow forced myself to wake up
    iwandertoo Resident: waves
    Hokon Cazalet: ive felt scared in vivid dreams before, but usually the opposite that something seemed inevitable to occur
    Lia Rikugun: i dont know how but then awake it was ok again
    Lia Rikugun: so something specific was happening and you couldnt stop it?
    Wol Euler: evening all
    Lia Rikugun: hello wol
    iwandertoo Resident: waves


    no structure - how to predict?

    Hokon Cazalet: by "no structure", how did you experience that was the case? (yeah when i wake up im better)
    Hokon Cazalet: yes
    Hokon Cazalet: hi wol
    Lia Rikugun: anything could have appeared or disappeared
    Lia Rikugun: there were not these rules that exist in reality
    Hokon Cazalet: oh that would be a bit distressing, no way to predict or manage the enviroment
    Lia Rikugun: yes exactly
    Lia Rikugun: and in combination with thinking this is reality it was so scary
    Hokon Cazalet: yup =(
    Lia Rikugun: but interesting
    Lia Rikugun: lets me think
    Lia Rikugun: (I had a dream in which I felt fully being in, and I thought this was reality)
    Hokon Cazalet: i havent had a dream like that before, yeah it is interesting, makes me think about the way we normally interact with the world, causality and predictability are huge in feeling secure or embedded in the world, to have that gone one would feel helpless
    Lia Rikugun: yes always looking out
    Lia Rikugun: but inreal life things happen too
    Lia Rikugun: that you cannot predict
    Hokon Cazalet: yup
    Lia Rikugun: so why was i soo scared?
    Lia Rikugun: why not curious?
    Lia Rikugun: :)
    Lia Rikugun: maybe next time
    Hokon Cazalet: well i think its a basic animal reaction, a feeling of loosing control over one's enviroment, thatd be a basic guess of mine (though cant be sure its correct, i dont know you in-depth, so could be other causes)
    Lia Rikugun: my boyfriend had experienced a false awakening :)
    Lia Rikugun: which is also a funny phenomenon


    loosing control and fear - smile at fear :)

    Hokon Cazalet: a few times in rl where ive felt i lost total control over my enviroment, i felt an existential style fear and anguish
    Hokon Cazalet: hehe
    Lia Rikugun: oh
    Lia Rikugun: how did you overcome the fear?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hi everyone
    Wol Euler: hello sharon
    Lia Rikugun: hi sophiasharon
    Hokon Cazalet: i didnt, the situation eventually went away and i was ok (sometimes though to more excessive experiences still haunt me)
    Hokon Cazalet: the more*
    Lia Rikugun: hm
    Lia Rikugun: fear is strange
    Lia Rikugun: i bought an intersting book
    Lia Rikugun: smile at fear
    Lia Rikugun: i really liked reading it, but applying it is not easy for me :)
    Hokon Cazalet: i guess the way i deal with fear is to be absorbed into the fear, but also "take charge" of the situation (internally), sort of the aristotelain notion of courage, act in spite of fear but dont negate the fear (no fear you'd be reckless)
    Wol Euler nods.
    Lia Rikugun: yes or use it somehow as catalysator
    Hokon Cazalet: i guess i act obstinant =P
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    Hokon Cazalet: yup
    Lia Rikugun: get more energy out of it
    Hokon Cazalet: use fear as a way to enbolden myself
    Hokon Cazalet: (what i try to do anyways =P)
    Lia Rikugun: :)
    Lia Rikugun: so I am wondering, to come back to structure and no structure
    Hokon Cazalet: ok
    Lia Rikugun: how can we put this in context with PaB?
    Lia Rikugun: I always get the impression the idea is to free yourself from structures
    Hokon Cazalet: i think it has a lot of potential for good thought, not quite sure how to incorporate it atm though (thinks a bit)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: (sorry, got rl stuff come up just as I logged in, bye for now)
    Wol Euler: bye! take care
    Lia Rikugun: but if you get scared what do you do?
    Lia Rikugun: byebye


    no structure and freedom

    Hokon Cazalet: well having no structure at all, you wouldnt be free, as freedom denoates a structure itself, being able to act/be free of, something determinate has freedom
    iwandertoo Resident: waves
    Hokon Cazalet: bye wol =)
    Hokon Cazalet: oh sophia, sorry
    Hokon Cazalet: hehe
    Wol Euler: not me :)
    Hokon Cazalet cant read :Þ
    Wol Euler: np :)
    Hokon Cazalet: =)
    Lia Rikugun: thats true, so to be free you need a structure to free yourself from
    Hokon Cazalet: if the world had no precictablity, thered be no-place to enact your freedom
    Lia Rikugun: taht is what you are saying?
    Hokon Cazalet: no
    Hokon Cazalet: that freedom itself is a structure
    Lia Rikugun: i am not sure if i understand
    Lia Rikugun: how is freedom a structure
    Hokon Cazalet: hehe its a bit paradoxical, um, to be free something must have that freedom, lets use an analogy with common experience: to be free to eat what you want means no rules or laws inhibiting your desires, yet without the structures of causality or desire itself, you wouldnt be free (no causality you couldnt will your hands to move and grasp the food, without desire there's nothing to have freedom)
    Hokon Cazalet: the concept of freedom requires some sort of prior structure for the concept to have meaning, something determinate that has freedom and the ability to express freedom
    Lia Rikugun: i think this is what I meant :)
    Lia Rikugun: oh no wait ther is a difference
    Lia Rikugun: ah i am confused
    Lia Rikugun: haha
    Hokon Cazalet: well its not that we need a structure to free ourselves from, we need a strcutrue to be able to have the possibility of freedom to begin with and con-current with such freedom
    Hokon Cazalet: without the law of causality, we would have no possibility for physical freedoms
    Lia Rikugun: yes i see
    Hokon Cazalet: to even utter "i am free" requires rules of thought, grammar etc
    Hokon Cazalet: i guess an easy way: you need a sandbox to play in =)
    Lia Rikugun: brb sorry
    Hokon Cazalet: i need to go get ready for work, have fun guys =)
    iwandertoo Resident: waves
    Hokon Cazalet waves back =)
    Lia Rikugun: back
    Lia Rikugun: byebye hokon
    Wol Euler: bye hokon, take care
    Lia Rikugun: (sorry had t organize a family meeting for tomorrow)
    Wol Euler: wb
    Lia Rikugun: (my fatehr just called :)
    Lia Rikugun: so what did we talk about
    Wol Euler: we waited for you :)
    iwandertoo Resident: :)
    Lia Rikugun: freeing ourselves
    Lia Rikugun: and without structure ther is no such thing as freedom or imprisonment
    Lia Rikugun: if i understood correctly
    Wol Euler: I'm not sure I followed that correctly :)
    iwandertoo Resident: i didn't follow it
    Lia Rikugun: HAHA
    Lia Rikugun: Iam just guessing


    unhooking hooks is scary

    Lia Rikugun: so i think my question was
    Lia Rikugun: in PaB we try to unhook the hooks
    Wol Euler listens.
    Lia Rikugun: leave the tructure
    Lia Rikugun: structure
    Lia Rikugun: but then it gets scary
    Lia Rikugun: how can I put both together?
    Lia Rikugun: but maybe I misunderstood
    Wol Euler: what are the "hooks"?
    iwandertoo Resident: i'm not resonating with what you are saying...but there is contradiction somewhere causing the fear
    Wol Euler: attachments?
    Lia Rikugun: attachments, preconceptions, rules
    Wol Euler: okay, so dropping those, yes we can agree so far :)
    Lia Rikugun: iwandertoo what do you mean with contradiction causing the fear?
    Lia Rikugun: but rules are also physical rules
    iwandertoo Resident: you are at odds with yourself
    iwandertoo Resident: what is the definition of fear?
    Lia Rikugun: maybe i give you the experience i had
    Lia Rikugun: I am not sure if you were there when I told it
    Lia Rikugun: and the questions that came from it
    Lia Rikugun: I had a dreamin which I was truely being in
    Lia Rikugun: and it felt like being the reality to me
    Lia Rikugun: so I was in this dream state
    Alfred Kelberry: wuff!
    Lia Rikugun: and it was very clear and real
    Alfred Kelberry: hi :)
    Lia Rikugun: wuff wuff hi alfred
    iwandertoo Resident: waves
    Wol Euler: hello boxy
    Alfred Kelberry: lia the cute tail :)
    Lia Rikugun: the problem was, there were no structures as in RL
    Alfred Kelberry: woly in ny?
    Wol Euler: not yet
    Lia Rikugun: I realized that anything could happen, anything could appear or disappear
    Wol Euler: two more sleeps :)
    Alfred Kelberry: one more sleep?
    Alfred Kelberry: ah, ok
    Alfred Kelberry: :)
    Lia Rikugun: and this was very scary
    Alfred Kelberry: um, sorry, lia
    Lia Rikugun: so i forced myself to wake up
    Wol Euler nods.
    Lia Rikugun: and now i am wondering
    Lia Rikugun: how does this scaryness and no-striucture fit together
    Lia Rikugun: how can I feel no-structure without scaryness
    iwandertoo Resident: why do you want to feel "no-structure"?
    Lia Rikugun: i dont know
    Lia Rikugun: :)
    Lia Rikugun: anything is possible
    Alfred Kelberry: life is quite chaotic and could be refered to as no-structure at times :)
    Lia Rikugun: and free
    Wol Euler: perhaps the scary part of htat is not knowing "the right thing to do"
    Lia Rikugun: yes I agree alfred :)
    Alfred Kelberry: many people feel uneasy about "no structure" in their lives
    Wol Euler: if there are no rules to follow, then anything might be right -- or wrong
    Alfred Kelberry: :)
    Lia Rikugun: how would it be like living in a dream and this being your reality?
    Alfred Kelberry: i think the culprit here is the ability to plan ahead, predict
    Alfred Kelberry: in a structured setting it's much easier
    Lia Rikugun: yes you can relax
    Alfred Kelberry: then in no-structure you panic
    Alfred Kelberry: omg, what's going to happen
    Wol Euler nods.
    Lia Rikugun: but why not going with the flow
    Wol Euler: one gets used to being in a small box, where the edges are known
    Lia Rikugun: in no structure and not trying to control
    Alfred Kelberry: lia, i think mindfulness practices help to come to harmony with that natural flow
    Lia Rikugun: yes i think i try to control
    Lia Rikugun: maybe thats it
    Alfred Kelberry: no, not control :)
    Alfred Kelberry: but let go :)
    Lia Rikugun: so how to do that? in one sentence :)
    Alfred Kelberry: our conscious control may often ruin the smooth inner workings :)
    Alfred Kelberry: um...
    iwandertoo Resident: believe in yourself
    Alfred Kelberry: susan :)
    Lia Rikugun: yes you break connection with your inner feelings


    Alfred Kelberry: zon!
    Lia Rikugun: hey hey zon
    Zon Kwan: hello there
    Wol Euler: hello zon
    iwandertoo Resident: waves
    Alfred Kelberry: wuff!
    Lia Rikugun: wiff
    Alfred Kelberry: :)
    Lia Rikugun: wrrroaaff
    Wol Euler chuckles.
    Alfred Kelberry: lia is a bark specialist :)
    Lia Rikugun: so what did I say ;)?
    Alfred Kelberry: um...
    Lia Rikugun: obviously some wise words :D
    Alfred Kelberry: :)
    Alfred Kelberry: you're all grey to me, except zon :/
    Lia Rikugun: sorry
    Wol Euler: get a better computer, boxy :)
    Zon Kwan: yes im bright
    Wol Euler: or a faster internet connetion
    Alfred Kelberry: got both :)
    Wol Euler smiles and shrugs.
    Alfred Kelberry: the next step is getting a sli setup :)
    Alfred Kelberry: e.g. 2 gpus
    iwandertoo Resident: waves. best to everyone.
    Wol Euler: bye susan
    Alfred Kelberry: meep, susan
    Lia Rikugun: bye
    Zon Kwan: flies amd waves...
    Alfred Kelberry: the royal wedding is royally annoying - it's everywhere!
    Lia Rikugun: wow i didnt seeanything about it
    Lia Rikugun: you watch too much TV
    Lia Rikugun: :)
    Wol Euler: :)
    Lia Rikugun: (I am teasing alfred)
    Alfred Kelberry: i do read news :)
    Lia Rikugun: hehe
    Lia Rikugun: so whats happening with the married couple
    Alfred Kelberry: no idea
    Wol Euler: are they married already?
    Alfred Kelberry: i stop reading when i see "royal"
    Wol Euler: :)
    Lia Rikugun: hehe
    Lia Rikugun: but you live in the UK?
    Alfred Kelberry: nope
    Lia Rikugun: the US
    Alfred Kelberry: is it a quiz? :)
    Lia Rikugun: i will continue guessing
    Lia Rikugun: :)
    Alfred Kelberry: well, you're going to guess eventually :)
    Lia Rikugun: so the US
    Alfred Kelberry: :)
    Lia Rikugun: wellwell
    Lia Rikugun: i think I will go to bed
    Alfred Kelberry: is there a meeting at 2 pm?
    Lia Rikugun: big family meeting tomorrow :)
    Alfred Kelberry: night, lia :)
    Lia Rikugun: so have a good night/day
    Lia Rikugun: and wol have fun in NYC!!!
    Wol Euler: ty
    Lia Rikugun: are you a tourist there?
    Wol Euler: happy easter, everyone
    Alfred Kelberry: ny is not much fun
    Wol Euler: yes, touristing, and seeing a few operas
    Lia Rikugun: i love it there
    Wol Euler nods.
    Lia Rikugun: go to chinatown: the vegetarian dimsum place
    Lia Rikugun: and yes operas!!
    Alfred Kelberry: you like operas, woly?
    Wol Euler: I do
    Alfred Kelberry: an expert?
    Lia Rikugun: ohh and I know a lovely gallery
    Lia Rikugun: "die neue Gallerie"
    Wol Euler: I don't consider myself expert at anything
    Lia Rikugun: on 5th ave and 86th street or something
    Wol Euler makes a note.
    Lia Rikugun: you have been to NYC before?
    Wol Euler: many tiumes :)
    Wol Euler: *times
    Lia Rikugun: yeay :) will you see Pema?
    Alfred Kelberry: maybe i should give opera one more try
    Wol Euler: :)
    Lia Rikugun: maybe ghe is in japan
    Wol Euler: no need to strain yourself
    Lia Rikugun: well well
    Lia Rikugun: i will go to bed you two
    Wol Euler: no,he's in san francisco with stim
    Lia Rikugun: happy easter if you are celebrating
    Wol Euler: happy easter, lia
    Lia Rikugun: byebye
    Wol Euler: take care
    Alfred Kelberry: are there easter eggs in sl?
    Wol Euler: probably :)
    Alfred Kelberry: so...
    Alfred Kelberry: off we go?
    Wol Euler: if you know where to find the ...
    Wol Euler: *them
    Alfred Kelberry: what?!
    Alfred Kelberry: aga?!
    Wol Euler: sneaky aggers is sneaky.
    Alfred Kelberry: ok, she's hiding
    Wol Euler: camming in :)
    Alfred Kelberry: ha!
    Alfred Kelberry: sneaky indeed
    Wol Euler laughs.
    Alfred Kelberry: wait
    Alfred Kelberry: she can't
    Alfred Kelberry: the nose is hidden
    Wol Euler: (for the log: Aggers is not present, but is nonetheless beeping Boxy's nose)
    Alfred Kelberry: :)
    Wol Euler: rude dog.
    Alfred Kelberry: i've hidden it in woly's jacket :)
    Alfred Kelberry: talkign to aga :)
    Alfred Kelberry: oh, it's ways of knowing
    Alfred Kelberry: let's go
    Wol Euler: yeah
    Alfred Kelberry: ok, follow me
    Alfred Kelberry: :)

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