2011.04.23 13:00 - Rebirth, Zen's dissertation, flux, Ayn Rand and all the isms

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    iwandertoo Resident: waves
    Qt Core: hi
    iwandertoo Resident: how are you?
    Qt Core: quite good, had an almost quiet day
    Qt Core: you ?
    iwandertoo Resident: all smiles...errands, but fun
    Qt Core: hi had to do some shopping (food shopping) quite crowded
    iwandertoo Resident: a maze of bodies
    Qt Core: and shopping carts :)
    iwandertoo Resident: should jump in one...roam free
    Qt Core: hi Zen
    iwandertoo Resident: waves
    Zen Arado: Hi Qt, Susan
    Zen Arado: not too busy tonight
    Zen Arado: Hi Arch
    Qt Core: hi Arch
    Zen Arado: where's Aph?
    iwandertoo Resident: waves
    Archmage Atlantis: Hi Zen, QT, Susan
    Zen Arado: people must go away for Easter holidays
    Zen Arado: they get an extra day in the UK this year
    iwandertoo Resident: perhaps visiting family
    Archmage Atlantis: I won't be here long Zen.....but I will post the log if needed
    Zen Arado: good for you Arch

    The meaning of Easter

    Qt Core: we have a saying about Easter here, "Christmas with yours (ie family) Easter with whom you want (ie travel or celebrate with friends)," it is mostly about having to be with family at Christmas, btw
    iwandertoo Resident: i am surprised how many turn up for services on Easter
    Archmage Atlantis: Easter is the tradition of re-birth in the community that evolved as Christian.......it is based, in many ways, on the celebration of Passover among Jews, freed from slavery
    iwandertoo Resident: and too, i guess, Christmas
    Qt Core: well, even if you should go to mass each sunday you are obliged to partake communion at least on Easter, iwander
    iwandertoo Resident: why so?
    Archmage Atlantis: That is easy
    Archmage Atlantis: It symbolizes a commitment to something that is not always remembered each day
    Qt Core: those are "the rules" but being Easter (as in passion and resurrection) the center of christian belief/celebration it makes sense
    iwandertoo Resident: a nod, an acknowledgement...perhaps more
    Zen Arado: when I was a Christian it was all about the rising of Jesus from the dead
    Archmage Atlantis: Yes, that was one way to see it, Zen
    Archmage Atlantis: There are many perceptions
    Zen Arado: so a happy time


    Archmage Atlantis: A rebirth
    Zen Arado: a celebration
    Zen Arado: yes
    Zen Arado: I suppose Jesus had a rebirth
    Zen Arado: maybe we will too

    Zen Arado: not sure I want one though
    Zen Arado: want to go on to the next stage
    Zen Arado: whatever that is
    iwandertoo Resident: you believe there is something after this life?
    Zen Arado: not believe exactly
    Archmage Atlantis: I have to go.....blessings and namaste.....btw, I think (sorta) the next stage is maybe a rebirth
    iwandertoo Resident: tc, Arch
    Zen Arado: bye Arch
    Zen Arado: just a feeling really
    Zen Arado: nobody knows for sure
    Zen Arado: Tibetan Buddhist seem to take it for granted
    iwandertoo Resident: they do believe in re-incarnation, I think
    Zen Arado: yes
    Zen Arado: seems more plausible when you think we are just energy fields
    iwandertoo Resident: i think this is it
    iwandertoo Resident: just this life here
    iwandertoo Resident: please tell me about the energy fields
    Zen Arado: well science seems to have discovered that there is really nothing solid
    Zen Arado: right Qt?
    Qt Core: if you really look at it with a big zoom ;-)
    Zen Arado: we are just empty space
    Zen Arado: yeh
    Zen Arado: especially when you look at things with a microscope
    Zen Arado: they used to think atoms were solid

    Qt Core: i just finished a book, titled Quantum, more than being about quantum physics it was about the story of quantum physics, a nice read
    Zen Arado: I'm writing a piece about my visit to a Tibetan centre last weekend
    Zen Arado: great
    Qt Core: Tibetan as in Tibet or only Tibetan tradition?
    Zen Arado: in Scotland
    Zen Arado: http://www.samyeling.org/
    Qt Core: nice place
    Zen Arado: Hi Life
    Qt Core: it is a little weird trying to think about a Tibetan monastery in the Scotland hills  ;-)
    Qt Core: hi Life
    iwandertoo Resident: waves
    Zen Arado: yes so strange to see the big stupas rising up when you drive there
    Zen Arado: I took some video clips and hope to post them
    Zen Arado: not sure I can do that on the Wiki
    Qt Core: but weird in a good way as in we can live together
    Zen Arado: Tibetans like plenty of colour
    Zen Arado: Zen is the opposite
    Zen Arado: very simple and plain
    Zen Arado: wear black at retreats
    Zen Arado: going to one next week
    Zen Arado: Tues to Sunday
    Qt Core: they have a lot of different courses there!
    Zen Arado: yeh
    Zen Arado: it's a big place
    Qt Core: are you going there or somewhere else?
    Zen Arado: somewhere else

    Easter bells
    Qt Core: the bells are starting to play for the night celebration of Easter
    Zen Arado: http://www.servites-benburb.com/
    Qt Core: i live less than 100 meters from a church
    Qt Core: (like most urbanized italians ;-) )
    Zen Arado: church bells can be nice
    Qt Core: it depends on the time of the day (they never disturbed myself)
    Zen Arado: I don't hear any where I live
    Qt Core: if there is no traffic I often can hear bells from more than one church
    Zen Arado: urban setting can be good
    Zen Arado: handy for shops
    Zen Arado: Susan disappeared
    Qt Core: yes, i often say that Milan isn't really beautiful or ugly, it is useful
    Zen Arado: I'm sure it has beautiful areas
    Zen Arado: think I prefer grass
    Qt Core: is there some animation to simulate allergies ? ;-) (luckily I have none of them)
    Zen Arado: :)
    Zen Arado: I get hay fever a little sometimes
    Zen Arado: you never have to cut the grass in SL
    Zen Arado: :)
    Qt Core: and absolutely don't try to water your monitor to water it!\
    Zen Arado: :)

    Zen Arado: are you going anywhere for Easter?
    Qt Core: no, i rarely go away for any reason
    Qt Core: btw the main tradition in Italy is to go away, usually for a picnic on the Monday after Easter
    Zen Arado: yes
    Zen Arado: lots of traffic
    Qt Core: but I more like a good sleep while others are going crazy on motorways ;-)
    Zen Arado: kids have to be taken places nowadays
    Zen Arado: we were just told to go and play in the street
    Qt Core: just heard the traffic news at the radio foretelling hell in the street on Monday between 16:00 and 22:00
    Zen Arado: yes
    Zen Arado: will just travel around SL
    Zen Arado: saves fuel
    Zen Arado: :)
    Qt Core: and headaches
    Zen Arado: and won't die in an accident
    Qt Core: but you can get zapped by a fault application at home
    Zen Arado: not fatally though :)
    Zen Arado: oh an electrical fault you mean?
    Qt Core: yes
    Zen Arado: true
    Zen Arado: always risks whatever we do
    Zen Arado: Hi Hokon :)
    Hokon Cazalet: hiya
    Qt Core: hi Hokon
    Hokon Cazalet: =)
    Zen Arado: it's quiet tonight
    Zen Arado: everybody must be travelling
    Qt Core: (or retreating in Assisi)
    Zen Arado: yes forgot about that
    Qt Core: wb iwander
    Zen Arado: wb Susan
    iwandertoo Resident: ty
    iwandertoo Resident: sorry...having issues
    Hokon Cazalet: wb susan
    iwandertoo Resident: :)
    Zen Arado: Aurora gives you her regards Qt
    Qt Core: ty

    Accessing Zen’s dissertation

    Zen Arado: I put my dissertation as a PDF on Google docs if you ever want to look at it Hokon
    Zen Arado: (unlikely) :)
    Hokon Cazalet: oh cool =)
    Hokon Cazalet: i might browse it, what’s the link?
    Zen Arado: https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&p...OGE4OGQ5&hl=en
    Zen Arado: can you look at that without me sharing it?
    iwandertoo Resident: you need to share it
    Hokon Cazalet: nope I cant view it
    Zen Arado: I need your email then?
    Zen Arado: no wait...I changed it to anyone with link can view
    Zen Arado: can you see it now?
    Hokon Cazalet: nope
    Zen Arado: you use Google email?
    Hokon Cazalet: yes
    Hokon Cazalet: not often but yes
    Zen Arado: https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&p...OGE4OGQ5&hl=en
    Hokon Cazalet: nope
    Hokon Cazalet: I’m logged in too
    Zen Arado: can you get that Qt?
    Hokon Cazalet: brb
    Zen Arado: or Susan?
    iwandertoo Resident: i tried as well...no go
    iwandertoo Resident: (sorry, being nosey)
    Qt Core: no, i can’t see it
    Zen Arado: hmmm
    Zen Arado: it says anyone with the link can access
    Zen Arado: if I click on the link it opens my browser and the link
    Qt Core: i get this: “Sorry, we are unable to retrieve the document for viewing or you don't have permission to view the document.” (with or without an invitation to try later)
    Hokon Cazalet: yup me too
    iwandertoo Resident: ditto
    Zen Arado: I made it public on the web now
    Qt Core: same result, may you gave us the link again (maybe it changed)
    iwandertoo Resident: yes :)
    iwandertoo Resident: I’m good
    Zen Arado: https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&p...OGE4OGQ5&hl=en
    Hokon Cazalet: Yaaaaayyyyyyyy!
    Qt Core: got it now
    Hokon Cazalet: i see it now
    Zen Arado: :)
    Hokon Cazalet: im gonna bookmark it for later viewing, also will help me learn the format for when i do my stuff
    Zen Arado: yeh
    Hokon Cazalet: omg 72 pages
    Zen Arado: they were very fussy about that
    Zen Arado: it's only 18000 words
    Zen Arado: it's cos it had to be double spaced
    Qt Core: the wide margin reminds me about someone trying to make a paper appear longer ;-)
    iwandertoo Resident: wide margin reminds me of all the red I used to receive :(
    Zen Arado: they wanted between 16000 and 1800 words I think
    Hokon Cazalet: aww
    Hokon Cazalet: i hate double spaced, how it looks
    Zen Arado: 18000
    Zen Arado: it's supposed to be easier to read that way
    Hokon Cazalet: i do all my current writings in single-spaced
    Hokon Cazalet: i find it harder
    Qt Core: by old professors with declining eyesight ;-)
    Hokon Cazalet: hehe maybe I’m weird: Þ
    iwandertoo Resident: :)
    Hokon Cazalet: hehe Qt
    Zen Arado: yeh :)
    iwandertoo Resident: declining eyesight..
    Zen Arado: I don't see much difference
    iwandertoo Resident: thanks for sharing, Zen
    Hokon Cazalet: i just see all this empty space, it’s distracting to me
    Zen Arado: np
    Hokon Cazalet: yup ty alot zen =)

    Foundations, flux and change

    Zen Arado: I was just getting into Buddhism when I wrote that
    Zen Arado: the idea of impermanence was affecting me
    Hokon Cazalet: =)
    Zen Arado: that's why I talked about foundations so much
    Zen Arado: “do we need a starting point for anything?
    Zen Arado: is the question
    Zen Arado: you have to start with an assumption really
    Hokon Cazalet: i think we need a path, for me I’m content with my path being in a heraclitian flux, but having a foundation also (i guess i don’t see the notion of a flux contradicting foundations)
    Hokon Cazalet: i guess i use flux as my foundation hehe
    Zen Arado: but if the foundational assumption is wrong.....
    Zen Arado: it's all wrong
    Hokon Cazalet: well it cant be an assumption, nor need it be one
    Hokon Cazalet: also a deductive system, of deducing propositions from founding axioms i don’t think is the way all foundational systems have to be
    Zen Arado: so what is undeniably true to start with is the question
    Hokon Cazalet: well there are things that are, but they tend to not lead us to complete knowledge, in fact they seem to be horribly in poverty
    Zen Arado: but you have to make an argument
    Hokon Cazalet: well not for some things, like A=A
    Zen Arado: argue a case
    Hokon Cazalet: A=A demonstrates itself to be the case, just its pretty empty
    Zen Arado: but A can't be A
    Hokon Cazalet: yeah it can, also that statement then refutes itself
    Hokon Cazalet: its how language works, repeatability, the very notion of time and memory hinges on repetition
    Hokon Cazalet: without repeatability, no time or time-consciousness is possible
    Zen Arado: another A has to be different in some aspect
    Hokon Cazalet: its occupies the now point, but it intends the same as the one now falling into the past inside memory
    Zen Arado: language is misleading
    Hokon Cazalet: thats why i stick to images, A=A is easily demonstrable with images
    Hokon Cazalet: same with the principle of non-contradiction
    Hokon Cazalet: no need for language with those really
    Zen Arado: depends what = means
    Hokon Cazalet: remove that symbol (plus i can internally define it myself for myself)
    Hokon Cazalet: if i enage radical doubt, i dont have to care what others think they mean
    Hokon Cazalet: cuz i dont know if they exist
    Hokon Cazalet: (which denial of A=A would lead to absolute skepticism anyways)
    Zen Arado: I never liked long chains of premises and conclusion
    Zen Arado: the premises usually have an assumption or weakness
    Hokon Cazalet: well that’s caricature of philosophical systems, only scholastic and rationalist philosophy behaved that way
    Zen Arado: yeh we have to use what we have I guess
    Hokon Cazalet: so what if they have a weakness? we dont ditch science cuz it has weaknesses, nor do we do that with anything else, why that prejudice?
    Zen Arado: yeh but science can use math
    Hokon Cazalet: so?
    Zen Arado: much more rigorous than language
    Hokon Cazalet: non sequitor, scientific theories require inductive evidence, which is always tenuous and approximate
    Zen Arado: words are devious things
    Zen Arado: but you can prove things in math
    Hokon Cazalet: you can create a technical language for philosophy, Aristotle tried to do that with the syllogism, but enlightenment philosophy tossed that away for the sloppy format of essays
    Hokon Cazalet: you cant prove things in science
    Hokon Cazalet: science isnt math
    Zen Arado: or do experiments that produce evidence
    Hokon Cazalet: science does have experiments but they have weaknesses
    Hokon Cazalet: its always flawed, inductive
    Hokon Cazalet: also the tools used are limited
    Zen Arado: yeh
    Hokon Cazalet: so again, why the prejudice, why the assumption philosophy must be geometric, as descartes wanted?
    Zen Arado: not saying that
    Hokon Cazalet: i know, but i see a lot of modern thought fly to that or the other extreme, acting as if that’s the only two paths
    Zen Arado: but think it gives an impression of rightness that can be false
    Hokon Cazalet: and all the while engaging in not too helpful dialectics, ditching past work down the drain
    Hokon Cazalet: no progress, just constant bickering
    Hokon Cazalet: (im not critiquing you btw)
    Zen Arado: I know what you mean
    Zen Arado: I remember having to wade through long tortuous logical arguments though
    Hokon Cazalet: yeah that’s why i dont wanna do grad school in america or england
    Hokon Cazalet: analytic philosophy i think it was a bad mistake, and is a dead end
    Hokon Cazalet: (no offense meant)
    Zen Arado: don't like it either
    Zen Arado: was why I moved to Rorty
    Hokon Cazalet: ok
    Zen Arado: but my tutor was very analytic
    Hokon Cazalet: yeah my rl friend has the same problem right now with his grad school
    Hokon Cazalet: he is getting a lot of doubts of going further with philosophy =(
    Zen Arado: I started to get into postmodernism in the dissertation
    Hokon Cazalet: oh ok
    Hokon Cazalet: yeah that’s a more continental movement i think
    Hokon Cazalet: im not a fan of postmodernism at all, but i like some stuff derrida says, might buy a book of him critiquing husserl
    Zen Arado: yeh
    Zen Arado: I got a bit disillusioned with analytic philosophy
    Zen Arado: as you can tell :)
    Hokon Cazalet: hehe i have just by hearing about it, and reading a few analytic articles lol
    Hokon Cazalet: im kinda glad i took a 2 year break from school, doing my own research
    Hokon Cazalet: with undergrad im gonna have to slug through analytic stuff though, no way past that
    Zen Arado: no?
    Hokon Cazalet: im sure in a hundred years analytic philosophy will be gone, but i wont be alive then!
    Zen Arado: Anglo-American stuff :)
    Hokon Cazalet: hehe
    Zen Arado: Rorty says philosophy is dead
    Hokon Cazalet: i would disagree with him, i think its just in a coma =P
    Hokon Cazalet: or taking a long nap
    Hokon Cazalet: ut, im an optimist =P
    Hokon Cazalet: but*
    Hokon Cazalet: i mean philosophy is gonna come back or human society is gonna be pretty ugly in a few hundred years . . .
    Zen Arado: maybe
    Zen Arado: not so sure it can solve so many problems
    Hokon Cazalet: well the path we are going is very objectivistic, factual, deletion of the subject for the sake of facts; sure you got the irrational romantics, but they wont ever be a movement unless they engage in regressive policies
    Zen Arado: needs a different more 'spiritual' approach I think
    Zen Arado: improving ourselves first
    Hokon Cazalet: i think spirituality will get hijacked like it was when agriculture took over
    Zen Arado: nah I think it will go the other way
    Hokon Cazalet: it’ll probably be some statistic thing of being one with the state, be part of the social machine
    Zen Arado: the age of reason coming to an end
    Hokon Cazalet: well yeah we'll go back to the dark ages, irrationalism, relativism, power over intellect
    Hokon Cazalet: where people are easily swayed and tricked since they don’t think
    Zen Arado: Einstein said something about the kind of thinking that got us into all the problems can't get us out of them
    Hokon Cazalet: liberalism, democracy, secularism are all products of the enlightenment
    Zen Arado: no I don't think we'll go back to the other extreme either
    Hokon Cazalet: i dont think reason is the problem
    Hokon Cazalet: well i think the problem is more how we approached rationality
    Hokon Cazalet: the cartesian zeal for geometric efficiency and certitude
    Hokon Cazalet: pure dianoia
    Hokon Cazalet: lol i guess reason=dianoia
    Zen Arado: maybe we need an amalgamation of reason with intuitive knowledge
    Hokon Cazalet: yeah i was just about to say that, my lingo is badly off
    Hokon Cazalet: but it needs to be universal, otherwise you’ll have a return to right-wing politics of an elite running society, oligarchy (at the extreme end fascism, and of course the irrationalist counter-culture form of left-wing statism.)
    Zen Arado: I don't do philosophy much any more
    Hokon Cazalet: thats ok =)
    Zen Arado: any movement has to come organically from the people I think
    Zen Arado: I'm still a comunitarian basically
    Zen Arado: and like pragmatism
    Hokon Cazalet: in the end it does, but if we leave it strictly to human nature, well that’s what right-wing politics is all about, left-wing ideas only have been around in sincerity the past 200 years
    Zen Arado: not someone forcing ideologies on a populace
    Zen Arado: Hi Issa
    Hokon Cazalet: communialism is anti-indivual, one with nature, the state etc, whatever it is
    Hokon Cazalet: hi issa
    Zen Arado: I don't like Kantian ideas
    Hokon Cazalet: and organic perennial movements tend to be excessively right-wing
    Hokon Cazalet: im not Kantian myself
    iwandertoo Resident: waves
    Issakar Mefusula: Just rezzing... Will sit down in a moment.
    Qt Core: hi Issakar
    Zen Arado: have you been here before Issa?
    Issakar Mefusula: Once, yes.
    Zen Arado: so you know we record the meetings and are ok with that?
    Issakar Mefusula: Yes that is fine.
    Hokon Cazalet: hey we got a grass floor now, my rezzing wasn’t slow . . .
    Zen Arado: great
    Zen Arado: yeh there is a grass floor option
    Hokon Cazalet: =)
    Zen Arado: right /left wing definition is a bit out of date now
    Hokon Cazalet: i dont think it is
    Hokon Cazalet: i find it quite useful
    Zen Arado: not so clear distinctions nowadays
    Hokon Cazalet: even if it has flaws

    Left? Right? Conservative? Liberal? Socialist?

    Hokon Cazalet: well i define right vs left in grand historical terms, thousands of years
    Issakar Mefusula: It's still used, but the validity of political labels is being questioned more on a grassroots level I find.
    Hokon Cazalet: in my scale, western culture is highly liberal/left-wing
    Zen Arado: maybe it is clearer in the US
    Zen Arado: but we have a coalition govt
    Issakar Mefusula: Where are you from Zen?
    Zen Arado: and two parties with different views sharing
    Hokon Cazalet: well the usa you have some of honest right-wing thinking in terms of economics (support more a meritocratic system), but most aren’t that right wing really, they still support a secular state for the most part, individual rights, etc
    Zen Arado: UK
    Zen Arado: real societies are far from philosophical theories
    Hokon Cazalet: in the end yes, i dont define my scale according to philosophy, but human nature
    Zen Arado: in Britain the govt is very much an elite
    Zen Arado: public school and Oxford educated MPs
    Issakar Mefusula: You know, in Europe before WW2 an after the Napoleonic wars, Conservatism meant State Intervention, State regulation, big government, etc, and Liberalism meant basically Laissez-faire capitalism
    Hokon Cazalet: on the right you have naturalism, perennialism, tradition, the social qualities of natural man to form meritocracies and social stratification, heroes and elite . . . and the left you have the siman love for freedom and being wild, also themes of alienation on the far left due to right-wing extremes
    Hokon Cazalet: yeah the terms keep changing, that’s why i try to use classic definitions and define my scale according to vast historical scales
    Zen Arado: yeh but very roughly
    Hokon Cazalet: which means nobody has a clue what im talking about cuz i use my own jargon lol
    Zen Arado: :)
    Hokon Cazalet: yeah it rough, im no expert in politics
    iwandertoo Resident: :)
    Zen Arado: don't mean it that way
    Hokon Cazalet: i also use the extreme needs to help me define things, right-wing socialism vs left-wing socialism
    Zen Arado: just the categories aren't so neat
    Issakar Mefusula: I usually go like this. Conservative means, broadly, preserving the status quo, where Liberal means, change it. They aren't so much specific ideas, as approaches to political organization.
    Hokon Cazalet: no in the end they aren’t
    Zen Arado: yeh Iassa
    Hokon Cazalet: i have a very hard time categorizing right-wing ideologies in a neat scale, like i have on the left-wing . . .
    Zen Arado: but Liberalism in pol philosophy means freedom for the individual
    Hokon Cazalet: then of course you have the "skeptical" theories on politics (anarchism), which dont fit really anywhere . . .
    Hokon Cazalet: yup
    Zen Arado: little interventin by the state
    Hokon Cazalet: which for a long time meant to break the status quo, of authoritarian, religious states
    Zen Arado: libertarianism is the extreme version
    Hokon Cazalet: yup
    Zen Arado: funny I read a book defining conservatism and other versions and quite liked some of the ideas :)
    Hokon Cazalet: hehe
    Issakar Mefusula: Yes, I agree Hokon. You see in the US right-wing claimants saying they want to abolish big government, promote business, and give more power to the people to choose what to do with their own money... but at the same time, they want to impose religious morality, support costly military operations abroad, support the government surveillance, etc.
    Zen Arado: they say we get more right wing conservative as we get older
    Hokon Cazalet: i kinda view american conservatism as a weird mix of classic liberalism and religious or economic right-wing concepts

    Hokon Cazalet: yeah american conservatism is a hybrid mess of ideas, i cant classify it easily
    Issakar Mefusula: Yep. Austrian School of economics.
    Hokon Cazalet: (its odd too, how conservatives in america have a strong sense of unity than "liberals" in the usa)
    Zen Arado: who could ever make sense of it all?
    Hokon Cazalet: just shows philosophy isnt the basis of real world politics hehe
    Zen Arado: the tea party gosh
    Issakar Mefusula: US Conservatives are not a uniform group, but I have seen right wing populists take two very opposing positions.
    Hokon Cazalet: yeah i dunno what that is, they use hippie rhetoric from the 60s, yet support oligarchy in many ways economically
    Hokon Cazalet: then they talk about freedom above all else
    Hokon Cazalet: its confusing
    Zen Arado: and very Christian?
    Hokon Cazalet: a weird kind of Christian
    Hokon Cazalet: (remember, america was founded in part, by the kooky forms of christianity europe tossed out =P)
    Hokon Cazalet: puritans being a good example
    Issakar Mefusula: "Freedom" and "democracy" are just "define-it-yourself-but-pay-lipservice" terms that all political movements have to espouse with the broad acceptance of classical liberalism.
    Hokon Cazalet: yup issa
    Issakar Mefusula: I mean, look at Obama's slogans.
    Hokon Cazalet: what are the two groups you see?
    Issakar Mefusula: "Hope" "Yes we can"
    Issakar Mefusula: Those are some pretty vague terms.
    Hokon Cazalet: yeah Obama’s slogans are pretty generic but peppy
    Issakar Mefusula: The thing is though
    Hokon Cazalet: Obama's the guy you want if you are down and wanna feel better . . . but just dont ask for specifics ok
    Issakar Mefusula: Totalitarian and oppressive governments all have to give into this classical liberalism rhetoric.
    Hokon Cazalet: right now they do
    Issakar Mefusula: To the point where it really becomes meaningless. Yes.
    Hokon Cazalet: yup

    Hokon Cazalet: its a con job, cuz people see classic liberal values (some of them) as "obviously right" such as issues of human rights (negative rights)
    Issakar Mefusula: I mean, look at the dictatorships of the former Soviet Union, or Mubarrack on his last days in office.
    Zen Arado: getting tired

    Hokon Cazalet: aw
    Hokon Cazalet: yup
    Hokon Cazalet: bye bye zen =)
    Hokon Cazalet: ty for the pdf or thesis file =)
    Zen Arado: bye
    Issakar Mefusula: See you Zen.
    iwandertoo Resident: waves
    Zen Arado: thanks for interesting discussion
    Qt Core: bye Zen\
    Hokon Cazalet: there's very little of what those guys actually espouse thats classic liberalism (esp the tea party, just tell them ayn rand was a passionate atheist, they'll scream)
    Hokon Cazalet: (not saying Rand is a good example of classic liberalism, she is shotty)
    Issakar Mefusula: Actually Rand I think is influenced very heavily by Marxism, as much as she was Classical Liberalism and the Nietzsche she never mentioned
    Hokon Cazalet: yeah she grew up with marxism destroying her family's occupation i heard
    Hokon Cazalet: but i find it funny all the tea party people loving rand, even though she saw theism as stupid
    Issakar Mefusula: Yes, but, I don't just mean in a reactionary sense. If you look at her philosophy of art, her metaphysics/epistemology and philosophy of materialism, it is straight from the horse's mouth.
    Issakar Mefusula: Yes and her criticism of theism is entirely Marxist.
    Hokon Cazalet: hehe
    Issakar Mefusula: Even the way she regarded labour
    Hokon Cazalet: next tea party person i see that loves ayn rand, im tellin them that lol

    Ayn Rand, Marxism & aesthetics

    Issakar Mefusula: Like from an aesthetic point of view, Is extremely Marxist.
    Issakar Mefusula: Hahahaha.
    Hokon Cazalet: i didnt know about her views on aesthetics
    Hokon Cazalet: (actually tbh i got no clue what marxist views on aesthetics is)
    Issakar Mefusula: Randian art is meant to emphasize human achievement, potency, and realism
    Issakar Mefusula: Well, not potency, potential rather.
    Hokon Cazalet: ok
    Issakar Mefusula: Rand's views on individual productivity is also straight from Marxism.
    Hokon Cazalet: hehe
    Hokon Cazalet: i didnt know her views were influenced by marxism in an intellectual way like that
    Issakar Mefusula: Marxism was never about the abolition of the individual into a collectivity. It was about harnessing the individual, to the best of his abilities, within a group effort.
    Hokon Cazalet: ill have to check on that
    Issakar Mefusula: I don't think anyone has bothered to write on the subject.
    Hokon Cazalet: i never saw that in marxist literature, but ive read only the manifesto
    Hokon Cazalet: hehe
    Hokon Cazalet: yeah probably
    Issakar Mefusula: Everyone just assumes, because she hated Marxism, she wasn't influenced by it at all.
    Hokon Cazalet: yeah, an assumption i made as well (seems to be wrong)
    Issakar Mefusula: Mmm.. It's worth knowing a bit about Marxist philosophy in this day and age I think.
    iwandertoo Resident: what do you mean by "influenced"?
    Issakar Mefusula: You don't have to become a hardcore Marxist, but a lot of political rhetoric that is thrown around is influenced indirectly by Marxism

    Hokon Cazalet: yeah probably, sadly ive kinda focused on more theoretical stuff in philosophy the past few years, my little scale ive made is about all i got lol.
    Hokon Cazalet: the hokonic political detector . . . only for $9.99 cuz its kinda cheap
    Issakar Mefusula: There were several influencing events in the 20th century of Marxism on the West. One of them was the spread of Socialist and Marxist political oragnizations in the West, which we see in the Red Scare and MacCarthyism.
    Hokon Cazalet: hm, maybe i shouldnt call extreme left-wing thought “communism”, cuz it seems i dont know communism too well . . . (tries to find a new label for her gauge)
    Issakar Mefusula: Another is the influence of postcolonial thought and rhetoric we see in charismatic leaders of the 3rd world (3rd world as in, non-aligned movement) like Nasser, and 2nd world people like Czechoslovakia's Dubchek and Cuba's Che Guevera.
    Issakar Mefusula: There is also Beatniks, hippies, and various left-wing rhetoric.
    Qt Core: time to go sleep, bye all
    Issakar Mefusula: Night.
    Hokon Cazalet: byebyes =)
    iwandertoo Resident: take care. waves

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