2011.04.24 01:00 - Language and other misunderstandings

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    Wol Euler was the guardian for this rather confused session. After reading it over while posting, I'm still not entirely sure what we were talking about. My apologies to Sun and Arch for being distracted and incoherent.


    Wol Euler: good morning, sun
    Sunshine Vayandar: hey Woly ;)
    Sunshine Vayandar: wow looking mesmerising
    Wol Euler: less now :)
    Sunshine Vayandar: ;)
    Wol Euler: that was a mix of two outfits, I'm afraid
    Sunshine Vayandar: it looked like one outfit
    Sunshine Vayandar: ;p
    Wol Euler: yeah, went together well :)
    Wol Euler: surprising what can work, sometimes :)
    Sunshine Vayandar: so so you are in the big apple?
    Wol Euler: no
    Wol Euler: hence my being here now
    Sunshine Vayandar: oh what happened
    Wol Euler: I missed my flight, arrived too late and theywouldn't let me check in
    Sunshine Vayandar: ohh ;((
    Wol Euler: so rescheduled for today
    Sunshine Vayandar: ahh kk
    Wol Euler: eh, could have been worse. Lufthansa only charged me 100€ for the change
    Sunshine Vayandar: hmm so you are going today then ;)
    Wol Euler: yep
    Sunshine Vayandar: hmmm not good when one misses the flight
    Wol Euler: yeah
    Wol Euler: but it happens often enough that there are procedures for dealing with it
    Wol Euler: nobody was particularly upset
    Sunshine Vayandar: ;)
    Sunshine Vayandar: ok so all is fixed ;)
    Wol Euler: yes
    Sunshine Vayandar: alhamdulillah ;) as they say
    Sunshine Vayandar: lol
    Wol Euler: do they, now :)
    Sunshine Vayandar: hehe lately I got the change to practise arabic
    Wol Euler: ah :)
    Sunshine Vayandar: ;) I miss it hmm
    Wol Euler: when and why did you learn it?
    Sunshine Vayandar: I was 19 ...I heard it a few times
    Sunshine Vayandar: and was amazed
    Sunshine Vayandar: and looked for an intensive course
    Sunshine Vayandar: and later I majored in Arabic at university
    Sunshine Vayandar: then I went to Tunis - to learn some more also ;)
    Wol Euler: cool
    Sunshine Vayandar: hmm it was long ago ...
    Wol Euler: did you use the language professionally?
    Wol Euler: or for fun?
    Sunshine Vayandar: hmm not really professionally ..
    Sunshine Vayandar: never got into translation seriously ...
    Sunshine Vayandar: I just wanted to understand arabic cultures more
    Wol Euler smiles.
    Wol Euler: that seems to me a fine reason
    Sunshine Vayandar: ;))
    Sunshine Vayandar: you know when you can address people in their own language when you travel
    Sunshine Vayandar: they are so grateful
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    Sunshine Vayandar: and we have a fun time ;)
    Wol Euler: yep :)
    Sunshine Vayandar: in africa it also works if you can play bob marley songs hehe
    Sunshine Vayandar: it's like a language of its own
    Sunshine Vayandar: instant friendships ;)
    Wol Euler chuckles.
    Sunshine Vayandar: hehe
    Sunshine Vayandar: which languages you speak?
    Wol Euler: fluently, only english and german
    Sunshine Vayandar: kk ;)
    Wol Euler: I can get by in french and italian, and speak a tiny bit of spanish
    Sunshine Vayandar: hmm really ;)
    Wol Euler: mmhmm :)
    Wol Euler: I learn languages easily
    Sunshine Vayandar: ;)


    Wol Euler: largely because I'm very curious and not afraid of making mistakes when learning
    Wol Euler: I've discovered that I can get by in places where I don't speak the language, too
    Sunshine Vayandar: yes I am like that too - I just like to play with languages ... and don't worry at all about making mistakes
    Wol Euler nods.
    Sunshine Vayandar: how so?
    Wol Euler: dunno :)
    Sunshine Vayandar: ;)) for example?
    Wol Euler: the key is this: if you *want* to communicate,you will
    Wol Euler: well, I've been in Portugal but that was so close to Spanish that it almost doesn'T count
    Sunshine Vayandar: hehe
    Wol Euler: been in Israel without Hebrew, in Japan without Japanese, in Russia without Russian
    Sunshine Vayandar: wow you have been around the planet ;)
    Wol Euler: okay, I'll admit that you don'T have conversations about higher metaphysical themes in a case like that
    Wol Euler: but you can get by
    Sunshine Vayandar: ;)
    Wol Euler: I was in buses and taxis and restaurants and bars and museums, and always got by
    Sunshine Vayandar: great ;) I wonder how it is in Japan
    Wol Euler: wonderful :)
    Wol Euler: it's a lovely place, wkth very nice people
    Sunshine Vayandar: I saw a film where people from Germany go to Japan
    Sunshine Vayandar: and they get lost
    Wol Euler: oh?
    Wol Euler: yeah, that happens :)
    Sunshine Vayandar: I think it was called Enlightenment guranteed
    Wol Euler: their numbering of buildings is different to ours
    Wol Euler: we think that a building exists along side of a street, and so we number the street-sides
    Sunshine Vayandar: Here is the trailer : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fXi4lOJe1I
    Wol Euler: they think that a building exists within a block that is enclosed by streets
    Wol Euler: so they number the blocks
    Sunshine Vayandar: number the blocks?
    Wol Euler: number houses within the block
    Wol Euler: with no reference at all to the streets
    Sunshine Vayandar: ah really
    Sunshine Vayandar: when these guys arrived in Japan - they went out ...
    Sunshine Vayandar: and they tried to remember their way by remembering the big neon signs
    Wol Euler watches and grins
    Sunshine Vayandar: you know those advertisements
    Wol Euler: yep
    Sunshine Vayandar: but later in the evening those were switched off
    Sunshine Vayandar: so they were not sure where to go
    Wol Euler: :)
    Sunshine Vayandar: watching the trailer again hehe
    Wol Euler: that would be tricky in any case, since many of those billboard-sized signs are computerized and run through a sequence of ads
    Wol Euler: so you may see a different ad, or the same one in two places ...
    Wol Euler: that looks great, sun, thank you for the tip
    Sunshine Vayandar: ;))
    Sunshine Vayandar: brb I need to relog
    Wol Euler: k
    Wol Euler: wb
    Sunshine Vayandar: ty I need to join a group and I can't add more groups in Imprudence
    Sunshine Vayandar: I think
    Wol Euler: did you update to 42 groups?
    Wol Euler: in phoenix there was a debug setting that you had tochange by hand ...
    Sunshine Vayandar: ah really
    Wol Euler: are you only at 25?
    Sunshine Vayandar: no I didn't do that
    Wol Euler: how many do you have right now?
    Sunshine Vayandar: 25
    Sunshine Vayandar: one sec I ask him again to send the invite
    Wol Euler: wait
    Wol Euler: stop
    Wol Euler: no point in doing that if you don't have a slot for it
    Sunshine Vayandar: ok I stopped ;)
    Sunshine Vayandar: how do I fix it?
    Wol Euler: I'm reading the imprudence website, looking for that
    Sunshine Vayandar: I think it did work before ....


    Wol Euler: aha!
    Wol Euler: "You can join up to 42 groups, by opening the group info window and clicking Join (if they are open enrollment). However, being invited to a group will not work if you are already in 25 or more groups."
    Wol Euler: http://blog.kokuaviewer.org/2011/01/...te-january-21/
    Sunshine Vayandar: ah
    Wol Euler: so it won't work if it isn't an open group.
    Wol Euler: if he MUST invite you, then you are stuck
    Wol Euler: but if you can join it by clicking onthe button, that will work
    Sunshine Vayandar: ok then I left a group and now I have 24
    Wol Euler: that's also a solution :)
    Wol Euler: good morning, arch
    Sunshine Vayandar: hi Arch ;)
    Sunshine Vayandar: yes ok worked ;)
    Sunshine Vayandar: I wonder why it is like that
    Sunshine Vayandar: ty for looking Wol
    Wol Euler: it seems they haven't fixed it generally yet
    Archmage Atlantis: Hello Wol, hello Sun
    Wol Euler: imprudence supports you *being in* up to 42 groups, but not being invited to join them
    Wol Euler: clearly a bug, or perhaps just an oversight
    Wol Euler: they seem to be a much smaller or slower team than is making Phoenix
    Sunshine Vayandar: hmm ok i see
    Wol Euler: if the group you dropped was public, you should be able to rejoin it
    Sunshine Vayandar: yes it was
    Sunshine Vayandar: just a shop
    Wol Euler: okay, find it in search and click on "join"
    Sunshine Vayandar: ok let me see
    Sunshine Vayandar: hmm strange - there isn't a join button
    Sunshine Vayandar: I will try at the shop
    Wol Euler: ah, then it isn't public in the sense that I meant
    Archmage Atlantis: And we wonder at why ppl find it diffficult to be in sl
    Sunshine Vayandar: hmm well I will investigate
    Wol Euler: yeah :)
    Sunshine Vayandar: oh it's no problem ;) hehe I love SL with all the bugs and laaaaags
    Wol Euler: sure :) much better than not being here
    Archmage Atlantis: No a common response, Sunshine
    Sunshine Vayandar: hmm no reason to get upset when SL doesn't work - in my opinion ...
    Archmage Atlantis: I wonder why i never hit the t in not
    Sunshine Vayandar: Woly will you post the log then?
    Sunshine Vayandar: or shall i?
    Wol Euler: yes, I can do that since I'm here
    Archmage Atlantis: I've only been upset 2x in sl
    Sunshine Vayandar: kk if you have time
    Wol Euler: I'll have time, just maybe not today
    Archmage Atlantis: over multiple years
    Sunshine Vayandar: kk ;)
    Sunshine Vayandar: and what happened Arch?
    Sunshine Vayandar: in those two cases?
    Archmage Atlantis: Well, those are private things
    Sunshine Vayandar: kk
    Sunshine Vayandar: 2 is not so bad
    Sunshine Vayandar: ;)
    Wol Euler: okay


    Here's where the trouble begins.

    Archmage Atlantis: I was lucky......I met good people right away
    Sunshine Vayandar: I was upset a few times but it was about the people not SL
    Archmage Atlantis: Sorry, ppl
    Archmage Atlantis: I still tend to spell things out
    Wol Euler snorts.
    Sunshine Vayandar: ;)
    Wol Euler: txtspk is for idiots
    Wol Euler: IMHO YMMV
    Wol Euler: hmmm, maybe I should rephrase that, soften it a little
    Sunshine Vayandar: lol
    Wol Euler: it's counter-productive to use txtspk in places like SL where people are reading and responding in real-time
    Sunshine Vayandar: I was not sure what u meant Wol
    Wol Euler: it's different when you send an text message to a cellphone, that is not real-time
    Wol Euler: the message will arrive with after a delay, and be read at leisure, and replied to later on


    Wol Euler: in SL txtspk just causes delays
    Archmage Atlantis: Hmmm, I learned Castillean Spanish over 4 years in high school.......but most of the Spanish speakers here speak either Cuban, Mexican or Columbian Spanish (or Brazilian Portugese) so learning Spanish was like learning waste
    Wol Euler: I'M surprised, I would have thought that there was a common base?
    Archmage Atlantis: Really?
    Archmage Atlantis: I have to really concentrate to watch UK TV
    Wol Euler: clearly portuguese and spanish are differnet :)
    Archmage Atlantis: And NE US Americans and SE US Americans often can't understand each other
    Wol Euler raises an eyebrow.
    Wol Euler: maybe I'm just good at languages :)
    Archmage Atlantis: Or, if they can, they just label the other as "ignorant"
    Wol Euler: well, htat's a different matter :)
    Archmage Atlantis: Really?
    Archmage Atlantis: To denigrate another sentient being because of their speech patterns is different than not understanding them?
    Wol Euler: um, yes.


    And I would still say "yes" to that question. It is possible to fail to understand somebody without thinking that they must be an idiot (while listening to a lecture by Stephen Hawking, for example). Unfortunately I was being distracted by RL at this point and wasn't read as carefully as I should have done.

    Archmage Atlantis: I would disagree.
    Wol Euler: if I meet a Mongolian, say, and *I* cannot speak Mongolian, I do not assume that it's because *he* is an idiot
    Wol Euler: but perhaps that's just me
    Archmage Atlantis: So, there are no ppl in your world that you see as lesser because they do not speak you native language as you do?
    Wol Euler: NO
    Archmage Atlantis: Hmmm
    Wol Euler: absolutely the contrary
    Wol Euler: read again please
    Wol Euler: wait, sorry, *I* am reading again :)
    Archmage Atlantis: I read it
    Wol Euler: yes, that's right. I do NOT see the ability to speak English wiht a particular language as a sign of intelligence or worth
    Sunshine Vayandar: hmm I live in SA and sometimes it does happen to me that people think something is wrong with me ....because I can't speak Afrikaans for example ...
    Wol Euler: there is NO connection in my mind between speaking English and being intelligent
    Wol Euler: nor german, nor french, nor japanese ...
    Archmage Atlantis: Wol, you are one of the most kind persons I know.......but to deny that we all experience prejudice, and that we all express prejudice to others, is hard for me to accept based on my personal observations
    Wol Euler: wait, we are talking past each other again


    Actually, I was *still* reading past him. My bad.

    Wol Euler: prejudice exists, *of course* it does
    Archmage Atlantis: waiting
    Wol Euler: I would no more say that nobody is prejudiced on grounds of language or accent, than I would say that it never rains anywhere on earth
    Wol Euler: some people ARE prejudiced on grounds of language or accent, YES. that exists
    Wol Euler: of course it does



    Wol Euler: I can see I'm going to have to edit this log to make some sense of my babblings :(
    Sunshine Vayandar: Arch I didn't really understand what started this thread ...
    Archmage Atlantis: PP did, actually, Sun.......
    Sunshine Vayandar: who did?
    Sunshine Vayandar: PP?
    Wol Euler: "ppl"?


    "Pema Pera", I now assume.

    Archmage Atlantis: No, that is not true
    Sunshine Vayandar: ah ok
    Archmage Atlantis: My question in the google forum about whether 1 AM sessions where worth continuing started the thread, and my feelings about being alone at my Wed 1 AM session generated that comment in the google group for PaB
    Wol Euler: I'm sorry about my comment, Arch, it was intended as a gentle reminder
    Sunshine Vayandar: yes I read the thread also
    Archmage Atlantis: A reminder is required when someone forgets the guidelines
    Archmage Atlantis: And I am deciding if I misread the guidelines
    Archmage Atlantis: In all my groups
    Archmage Atlantis: And also, who decides the guidelines
    Wol Euler: the guideline in this case is that we meet here at regular intervals, I think.
    Sunshine Vayandar: I think it was a good point to raise Arch ... but I also agree that it doesn't matter if someone comes or not ....
    Wol Euler: we are here as a kind of service, in my opinion, to be available for people who might wish to attend
    Wol Euler: sometimes nobody does, and that is fine too
    Sunshine Vayandar: at least that is how I feel ... if there is noone coming .... that is ok yes
    Wol Euler: my comment was only intended to say that they are not absent because of you personally, arch
    Archmage Atlantis: That is what I think also Wol
    Sunshine Vayandar: hmm I have to go - take care both ;) see u soon


    Archmage Atlantis: That is why I wanted to be a Guardian, to be here when no one else was available to be
    Sunshine Vayandar: have a good sunday
    Wol Euler: bye sun, take care
    Archmage Atlantis: I never intended to take a commitment to a time
    Archmage Atlantis: I realize this comes across as a personal issue
    Archmage Atlantis: sigh
    Wol Euler nods
    Wol Euler: I wasn't aware of that, arch
    Archmage Atlantis: It is long past time for the end of this session
    Archmage Atlantis: Ty for your patience
    Wol Euler: I'd rather that we continued and came to a conclusion that would help you, arch
    Archmage Atlantis: Blessings, Shalom & Namaste
    Wol Euler: bye arch
    Wol Euler sighs
    Wol Euler: man, that was really inconclusive.
    Wol Euler: why do people talk around the issue that *really* concerns them?
    Wol Euler: if the issue for Arch was that he feels trapped in a commitment to be GoC at a particular session, why talk about the timing of that session?
    Wol Euler: we should have been talking about his feelings, not about attendance
    Wol Euler sighs

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