2011.04.26 13:00 - Is Reality the I-story of the Beholder?

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Bruce Mowbray. The comments are by Bruce Mowbray.

    oO0Oo Resident: hiya Bruce
    oO0Oo Resident: Hey!
    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, oo00oo!
    Bruce Mowbray: Hello, Trent.
    Trent Denja: Hey there Bruce
    Trent Denja: et al
    oO0Oo Resident: hi Trent :)
    Trent Denja: hey Sam :) good to see you again
    Bruce Mowbray: You've been here before, right Trent?
    Bruce Mowbray: ok -- I see that you have.
    Trent Denja: just once, yesterday
    Bruce Mowbray: Good!
    Bruce Mowbray: Welcome back!
    Trent Denja: thank you!
    oO0Oo Resident thinks 'et al' makes an interesting display name ;)
    Trent Denja: hehe
    --BELL--
    Trent Denja: Hi Maxine
    Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Maxine.
    Maxine Walden: hi, guys, sorry I came to the wrong place, meant to go to the Kira Cafe for a dream workshop that I am leader of
    Maxine Walden: Sorry! :)
    Trent Denja: sniff
    Maxine Walden: Maybe I would prefer to be here!!
    Maxine Walden: bye
    Bruce Mowbray: No problem, Maxine. Hope your Dreams group goes well today.
    Trent Denja: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Wish I could be there myself!
    oO0Oo Resident: :) ntsy maxine
    Bruce Mowbray: Unfortunately, I rarely remember my dreams.
    Trent Denja: Try going to bed with a nicotine patch on
    Bruce Mowbray: Oh dear -- what happens then, Trent?
    Trent Denja: You get very very weird, vivid dreams - your body isn't really supposed to be processing a stimulant like that when its asleep. It's not dangerous, but odd things happen
    Bruce Mowbray: Mmmmm.. Sounds fascinating.
    Trent Denja: I don't recommend it as a long term hobby, but I've taken naps with a patch on before from time to time
    Trent Denja: it's interesting, but you won't find enlightenment
    Bruce Mowbray recalls the movie INCEPTION....
    Bruce Mowbray: Long ago I had a friend who would drink an entire bottle of Robitussin before going to sleep ---
    Bruce Mowbray: claimed the dreaming was cool.
    Trent Denja: Probably helped him get to sleep too
    Bruce Mowbray: no doubt.
    Trent Denja: Ive been in situations where I wouldn't have minded having access to a bottle
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    Bruce Mowbray looks for some ale. . .
    Trent Denja: So the last time I was here
    Bruce Mowbray listens
    Trent Denja: the person that was running, or at least officiating the group, raised the question about what is the nature of reality. I said does reality have to have a nature, or does it even matter? That didn't get resolved.
    Trent Denja: we got sidetracked pretty quickly
    Trent Denja: interesting question tho
    Bruce Mowbray: Oh -- let's continue with that == if you like.
    Trent Denja: don't have to - just throwing it out there as an idea
    Bruce Mowbray: I was not here - but it sounds like it might have been an off-shoot from the Ways of Knowing group...
    Trent Denja: I'm open to discuss anything
    oO0Oo Resident: loosely PaB has been exploring this for 3 years , but in ways less conceptual at times
    Trent Denja: ahhhh, I see
    Bruce Mowbray: I'm going to lower the fountain so I can see you better. . .
    oO0Oo Resident smiles
    Bruce Mowbray: there...
    Bruce Mowbray ponders "reality" with his body....
    Trent Denja: I think first the terms have to be defined
    Trent Denja: I mean, what is "reality"
    Trent Denja: because the described is never the thing.
    Bruce Mowbray senses that the nature of reality has something to do with wind flowing through window behind computer and hitting arms, hands, and face.
    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Zon!
    Trent Denja: hey zon, come join us
    Zon Kwan: hey bruce, all
    Zon Kwan: bruce
    oO0Oo Resident: hi Zon
    Trent Denja: So let's say that reality, in this sense, is what's happening in the moment - is that fair to say?
    Bruce Mowbray: Ahh -- I like that, Trent.
    Bruce Mowbray: Is there a nearness-farness component to that?
    Trent Denja: like if a tree falls kind of thing?
    Bruce Mowbray: Well, sort of -- What I mean is, Is it reality if it happens far away from my own perceptions?
    Bruce Mowbray: Or is reality just what I experience?
    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Riddle!
    Zon Kwan: yes
    Zon Kwan: its ur reality
    Bruce Mowbray: How many realities are there?
    Zon Kwan: as many as perceivers
    Bruce Mowbray: oh dear -- that's a lot!
    Zon Kwan: only one
    Riddle Sideways: Hi Bruce, oOOo, Zon, Trent
    Trent Denja: Oh I think so. I mean, we use words to divide and divide -- I'm quite confident there is only one reality, and the reason there's so much confusion and sorrow is because of the filters everyone brings to the table to percieve it
    oO0Oo Resident: hiya riddle
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-) Riddle -- welcome!
    Trent Denja: Heya rids
    Zon Kwan: 1st question should be ..define word reality
    --BELL--
    Zon Kwan: 2nd question only ..how many r there realities like that we defined
    Riddle Sideways: am just eating lunch and avoiding that which should get done and ya ask what is reality :o
    Trent Denja: You arrived about 2 seconds after we took a stab at that :)
    Trent Denja: we settled on reality is what's happening in the moment
    Zon Kwan: to whom ?
    Bruce Mowbray wonders if we really did 'settle' on that definition. . .
    Bruce Mowbray: I recall asking if that was it, though.
    Trent Denja: well, loosely
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    Trent Denja: we played with that definition
    Riddle Sideways: and from which point of view
    Bruce Mowbray: Blub proposes that there are two realities - and only two : In water, and OUT of water.
    Bruce Mowbray: Blub
    Bruce Mowbray listens for more from man or fish.
    Zon Kwan: reality can be defined from the objective side or subjective side
    Trent Denja: Can we agree that there is something going on whether or not you're there to see it. We can get really philosophical, but we can agree, if you ahve a child, things were happening before the child came into being
    Trent Denja: and they continue after the child exists
    Trent Denja: that is what I dub reality
    Bruce Mowbray: Good dubbing, Trent!
    Trent Denja: :)
    Zon Kwan: so then we have many realties
    Trent Denja: Where I'm going with that is there is one continuing "thing" that is happening, and a bunch of people to perceive it
    Trent Denja: we can call the thing reality, or we can call the people bringing their own realities I suppose
    oO0Oo Resident: child reality dubbed as posit, before reality itself is dubbed?
    Trent Denja: but that brings us back to what is reality
    Zon Kwan: reality consists of consciousness noting objects, so its a process
    Zon Kwan: its not "out there"
    Bruce Mowbray: Solipsism?
    Trent Denja: Going with that line of reasoning, what would describe as "out there"
    Trent Denja: if we're going to use a different word
    Riddle Sideways: contends there is a separate reality
    Bruce Mowbray: (For Blub, "out there" is out of water.)
    oO0Oo Resident: separate from? riddle?
    Zon Kwan: separate from what ?
    Bruce Mowbray: yes, "separate" from what?
    Trent Denja: perception. For instance
    Zon Kwan: if reality is all that exists, it must include botrh subject and object
    Trent Denja: millions of years ago, before humans existed, and there was just animals running around the planet
    Trent Denja: since we weren't there
    Trent Denja: what was that?
    Trent Denja: that's separate
    Trent Denja: from perception
    Bruce Mowbray: Ahhh @ Zon -- I like to think of that as the 'reality continuum.'
    oO0Oo Resident: reality or epistemology?
    Riddle Sideways: folk-lore
    Zon Kwan: just animals ?
    Zon Kwan: where did the consciousness appear
    Zon Kwan: only with humans
    Bruce Mowbray: We have evidence that such a time (with no humans around) actually existed. . . so it's a sort of inference from evidence.
    Trent Denja: well look, we can reduce this to the tree falling in the woods - that's' essentially what we're discussing
    Zon Kwan: how do we know there was no consciousness noting things
    Bruce Mowbray: I don't like the "Tree in the woods" saying.
    Trent Denja: at this point
    Trent Denja: I'm not a fan of it either
    Riddle Sideways: :)
    Trent Denja: but that's essentially where we are
    Trent Denja: if people aren't there to perceive, does it exist?
    Bruce Mowbray: It assumes that the only "hearers" are human -- and ignores the entire forest of creatures -- including other trees.
    Zon Kwan: all mater has a kind of consciousness
    Zon Kwan: so always there is a perceiver and perceived
    oO0Oo Resident: maybe more a matter of importance in that hypothetical
    Trent Denja: alright, let's take this to an absurd length
    Zon Kwan: there is no dead matter
    oO0Oo Resident: do 'animals' need to know about 'existence' / 'reality'
    Zon Kwan: all matter is alive, moving
    Bruce Mowbray: When the earth receives the tree falling upon it, are you saying that the earth has no "awareness" that it has been impacted?
    Zon Kwan: it is in it
    Trent Denja: see that brings me back to my point, Sam
    Trent Denja: that reality is in the moment, which is where animals live
    Zon Kwan: that base of existence is consciousness
    Trent Denja: and the nature of reality, or if it even exists, is irrelevant
    Trent Denja: it's a question that does not need to be asked
    Trent Denja: or rather, answered
    Riddle Sideways: only we sit on our cushions asking those questions
    oO0Oo Resident: as an animal, i am in the best position to try and see perhaps
    Bruce Mowbray: I disagree that the basis of existence is consciousness. . . . (unless you are defining "consciousness" quite differently that it is usually defined.
    Trent Denja: well sure, we ask them to learn :)
    Bruce Mowbray: than*
    Trent Denja: although learn is a dicey word
    Zon Kwan: if we ask is there separate reality..separate from consciousness or perceiver. my answer is no
    Trent Denja: I think the ability to see clearly is far more important than the accumulation of knowledge
    Bruce Mowbray: Perhaps the basis of HUMAN existence is consciousness (as we know it) -- but what of other creatures, and of inanimate objects?
    Bruce Mowbray: shall we say they have no "presence" in their being part of the scene?
    Zon Kwan: there is no inanimate in nature
    oO0Oo Resident: and can 'clear seeing' occur outside of intellect or conceptual thinking?
    Zon Kwan: all things move
    Zon Kwan: electrons
    Bruce Mowbray: Ahhhh!! 'No inanimate in nature' -- what a wonderful idea!
    --BELL--
    Trent Denja: how about this -- and I say this without judgment. Is it an act of selfishness to say that there is no reality outside of yourself?
    Trent Denja: (srry)
    Bruce Mowbray: thank you , Zon.
    Zon Kwan: depends who u r
    Zon Kwan: little separate me, or part of the whole
    Riddle Sideways: Hi Eos, what is reality?
    Bruce Mowbray: Howdy do, Eos!
    Riddle Sideways: reality!!!
    Bruce Mowbray: reality.
    Eos Amaterasu: scrutability?
    Trent Denja: Heyya eos
    Bruce Mowbray waits to hear a truly fresh definition of reality.
    Zon Kwan: bretah in..be aware of the moment..this is reality
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Trent, Bruce, Riddle, Samuo, Zon
    Riddle Sideways: the percentage of tyypos is far greater toda
    Zon Kwan: just this
    Bruce Mowbray: Wonderful, Eos! Just what I'd hoped for.
    Trent Denja: ironically after all that, Zon and I agree on the specifics
    Zon Kwan: yes, but we play different wordgames
    Trent Denja: right
    Trent Denja: which is ultimately unnecessary
    oO0Oo Resident: hiya Eos
    Trent Denja: Is "reality" even a helpful word or concept?
    Zon Kwan: it is.. extremely necessary
    Zon Kwan: to see
    Zon Kwan: how words
    Zon Kwan: mislead us
    oO0Oo Resident nods
    Zon Kwan: we think of the word reality as self-evident
    Trent Denja: Sure they do - though we did have two distinct concepts of the fundamentals - but regardless, delving deep into them doesn't ultimately matter
    Zon Kwan: although it is based on the idea
    Zon Kwan: that there is duality
    Zon Kwan: subject-object duality
    Zon Kwan: and teh object is real
    Zon Kwan: and subject doesn't really exist
    Bruce Mowbray: Does our language lead us a-stray?
    Zon Kwan: yes
    Riddle Sideways: yes
    Trent Denja: We can certainly abstract -- and yes, language definitely can lead us astray, but there's a practical element to the discussion
    Zon Kwan: we think that reality is something out there
    Trent Denja: regardless of how we define reality and perception
    Trent Denja: continue.;.
    Bruce Mowbray: If I speak of Plutonians, who have purple skins, and who determins our every move, does that make Plutonians "real"?
    Eos Amaterasu: our own identity is out there
    Eos Amaterasu: (at least mine is :-)
    Trent Denja: Right, that's where we get hung up on this Bruce
    Bruce Mowbray suspects his "identity" is no-where.
    Trent Denja: because regardless of reality being perception based, if there are starving people in Africa, they're still starving whether or not I'm there, or even alive. That is happening outside of my perception.
    Zon Kwan: if u have a dream..that is real dream
    Trent Denja: and it's happening
    Bruce Mowbray ponders "It's happening" and somehow takes reassurance from that.
    Zon Kwan: the word real is a bit useless as all is real
    Trent Denja: I'll up the ante
    Trent Denja: on real
    Eos Amaterasu: better have real money
    Zon Kwan: lol
    Trent Denja: Now I could be crazy, certainly
    Zon Kwan: even a lie is a real lie
    Riddle Sideways: much easier to allow multiple (infinite?) realities then try to put it all into yours
    Bruce Mowbray: Good point, Riddle!
    Trent Denja: but recently, I came to the conclusion that all of my fears, hopes, anxieties, and definitions of myself cannot be real, because they came from thought - they're stories, created by me, that I take stock in, for better or for worse; where I'm going, should I be married by now, what job should I have -- all of it is a story, and false, because it came from thought.
    Zon Kwan: they r real stories
    Riddle Sideways: ah much easier trent
    Zon Kwan: but just stories
    Bruce Mowbray: aRE WE OUR STORIES, THEN?
    oO0Oo Resident: each thought/story.. a constructed reality
    Zon Kwan: yes
    Bruce Mowbray: sry bout caps!
    Trent Denja: but the story is not the situation, just as the described is not the thing
    Bruce Mowbray: narrative as identity?
    Riddle Sideways: and worse, we are other people's stories too
    Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm.....
    oO0Oo Resident: ;) riddle
    oO0Oo Resident: for better for worse... for ever
    Bruce Mowbray: I "have" multiple stories about my life's story.
    Zon Kwan: i dream..that is real to me..i wake up...its real too, but lasts longer
    Eos Amaterasu: sometimes that gets difficult, Riddle (as when I am too much my parent's narrative)
    Trent Denja: but the story is the problem
    Riddle Sideways: yet, we think we are IT, I, myself whole
    Trent Denja: because it takes us out of the moment
    Trent Denja: the story is the past
    Bruce Mowbray: Ahh yes -- 'too much my parents' narrative' -- I can relate to that!
    Zon Kwan: in Indian thought all is real but at the same time maya = illusion = not what it seems to be
    Bruce Mowbray: The story might also be the solution -- or ONE of them.
    Trent Denja: but if you're in the moment, you don't need the story
    Zon Kwan: yes
    Trent Denja: because if you have clarity, the solution will be obvious
    Riddle Sideways: true
    Bruce Mowbray: Good point, Trent.
    oO0Oo Resident: noticing the moment.. so helpful
    Trent Denja: look at it this way
    Bruce Mowbray: Someone once said, if you define the "problem" very accurately, the solution will become obvious.
    Zon Kwan: what is real is that the perceiver is the perceived
    Trent Denja: Bruce, the other day, you say something, I don't know, really disrespectful about my mother and her breeding habits
    Trent Denja: and lets say it makes me upset
    Trent Denja: now
    Trent Denja: the following day
    Bruce Mowbray: What!?!?!
    Trent Denja: (this is a hypothetical)
    Riddle Sideways listens
    Bruce Mowbray: I would never intentionally be disrespectful.
    --BELL--
    Zon Kwan: id like to meet her
    Zon Kwan: ops shut his mouth)
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-) OK enough just to drop what we have to see what we are....
    Trent Denja: if I come to you, with that statement you made, that slight, in my mind - at the forefront, then I'm reacting to the past, and not seeing you in the moment. As you really are. I'm seeing you based entirely off something in the past, a definition, an image I have of you, that isn't real - because I made it in my head. And it keeps us from having relationships in the moment.
    Bruce Mowbray continues to listen. . . .
    Trent Denja: That doesn't mean we need the negation of thought and memory - the destruction of it, but rather, to be aware of it, as a tool, but not to rely on it for every interaction we have
    Trent Denja: which is what we do
    Trent Denja: when I meet you for the first time I'm REALLY SEEING YOU
    Trent Denja: but every time after that I'm not
    Trent Denja: because I have an image of you
    Trent Denja: that isn't you
    Trent Denja: that is interposed between me and you
    oO0Oo Resident: nice observations Trent
    Trent Denja: Thought and knowledge is a serious problem. It's a great tool - we need to know how to get home, how to get to work, when to pay our bills
    Eos Amaterasu: Sry, must depart this illusory sphere, ersatz reality calls :-)
    Zon Kwan: nods
    Trent Denja: but it's like a hammer - and too often we use it to hit ourselves on the head instead of pound nails
    Bruce Mowbray ponders "home." and how to get there.
    Trent Denja: take care eos
    oO0Oo Resident: and 'me' and 'you' dissolves
    Eos Amaterasu: ciao!
    Zon Kwan: nods
    Bruce Mowbray: Bye, Eos!
    Trent Denja: right, at that point sam, we stop having relationship
    oO0Oo Resident: bye Eos
    Trent Denja: because I'm not seeing you, really, and you're not seeing me
    Trent Denja: we're seeing images of each other we made in the past
    Trent Denja: and using that as a filter for the now
    Riddle Sideways: very good point
    oO0Oo Resident: awareness may be itself impersonal
    Zon Kwan: what would we see if there were no filters
    Riddle Sideways: everything
    Trent Denja: Krishnamurti spoke a lot of the "observer"
    Zon Kwan: yes
    Trent Denja: this thing we ascribe to ourselves
    Trent Denja: as the "I" in our being
    Trent Denja: that doesn't really exist
    Zon Kwan: yes
    Bruce Mowbray: The further I go with "awareness," the more impersonal it becomes.
    Trent Denja: and the negation of the observer is what allows you to actually see
    Bruce Mowbray: awareness*
    Zon Kwan: yes
    Zon Kwan: there is only the process
    Zon Kwan: perceiving happens
    Zon Kwan: that is real
    oO0Oo Resident: mmm, maybe not negation... but relaxation
    Trent Denja: I'm not sure if you can have the observer, and truly see at the same time
    Zon Kwan: including perceiver..perceiving..perceived
    oO0Oo Resident: what are we hoping for?
    Trent Denja: because the observer IS all those filters and interpositions
    Trent Denja: the definitions and divisions
    Zon Kwan: observer is the observed
    Trent Denja: the American, the Muslim, the Christian and the Jew
    Trent Denja: Right
    Trent Denja: precisely
    oO0Oo Resident: once satisfied.. how would it look? how would we be... what would we experience?
    Riddle Sideways: Hi Stev
    Trent Denja: rephrase? once what is satisfied?
    stevenaia Michinaga: waves, having a bad rezz day, this is all you see of me today
    oO0Oo Resident: hi Stevenaia
    Zon Kwan: unity of being
    stevenaia Michinaga: hi trent, gtsy
    oO0Oo Resident: gtsy
    Riddle Sideways: you look great
    stevenaia Michinaga: lol

    Bruce disappears due to loss of internet connection

    Riddle Sideways just became aware of loss of Bruceness
    stevenaia Michinaga: I can only stay for a bit
    oO0Oo Resident thinks 'good hair day'
    stevenaia Michinaga: it always is when it's all you have
    oO0Oo Resident: Candid?
    Riddle Sideways: had that thought too. would only stay a little, but then they questioned reality
    Trent Denja: just remember that this talk of satisfying something to get something -- it implies that enlightenment, or whatever label you want to slap on it, is outside of you and something to be achieved or sought after. it isn't - that's a myth. Everything is inside. In fact, the words "Pursuit of happiness" are one of the most damaging phrases to make it into the declaration.
    oO0Oo Resident: Candide*
    Trent Denja: hahahaha
    Zon Kwan: nods
    Zon Kwan: part of the game
    oO0Oo Resident: on what do you base that Trent?
    stevenaia Michinaga: agree with the first part, haven't thought about the second part
    Trent Denja: because of the implication that happiness is not innately part of you, and a process that you must embark on to achieve something that is external
    oO0Oo Resident: experience, or theory?
    Trent Denja: which is a lie
    Zon Kwan: dog hunting its tail
    Trent Denja: I mean look at us
    Trent Denja: we're always trying something new
    Trent Denja: trying to find the next gimmick that works
    Trent Denja: that makes us happy
    oO0Oo Resident: the snake ultimately has to eat its own tail
    Trent Denja: whether it's toys, religion, sex, whathaveyou
    Trent Denja: but its never out there
    Zon Kwan: mm sex yes
    Trent Denja: it never satisfies
    Zon Kwan: but is nice
    Trent Denja: hell yeah
    Trent Denja: but it's not happiness
    oO0Oo Resident: yes but gives us a path
    Zon Kwan: lol
    Trent Denja: a path to what?
    Riddle Sideways: sex
    Zon Kwan: mm
    oO0Oo Resident: lol riddle
    Trent Denja: what's at the end of the path
    Trent Denja: ?
    --BELL--
    oO0Oo Resident loves you all
    Zon Kwan: interplay
    stevenaia Michinaga: prefer the path to the "end"
    Zon Kwan: waves.. and vanishes in his reality
    stevenaia Michinaga: bye Zon
    oO0Oo Resident: swiss army realities... Zon folds back in
    Trent Denja: This was a treat as always -- maybe I'll catch some of you in six hours
    Trent Denja: Be good to yourselves
    Riddle Sideways: yes, very enjoyable
    oO0Oo Resident smiles..gtsy Trent
    Riddle Sideways: thank ja all
    Trent Denja: likewise :)
    oO0Oo Resident: thanks all.. I'm off too
    stevenaia Michinaga: bye trent, I must be off shortly, Tuesday is Tai CHi night
    stevenaia Michinaga: good seeing you again Sam
    oO0Oo Resident: bye Stevenaia , :)))

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