2011.04.29 06:00 - Time Session: no-view is not no view

    The Guardian for this meeting was Bleu Oleander. The comments are by Bleu Oleander.




      Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Good morning, Xir.
      Pema Pera: yes, it has been a while!
      Maxine Walden: :)
      Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): morning Bruce:)
      Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): :)
      Bleu (bleu.oleander): hi everyone :)
      leaping panther (darren.islar): hi Bleu
      Bruce (bruce.mowbray): /me has fresh coffee for anyone who wants it.
      Sun (sunshine.vayandar): hi Bleu ;)
      Sun (sunshine.vayandar): ys pls Bruce
      Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): hi Bleu:)
      Pema Pera: hi Eos, good to see you too!
      Maxine Walden: love some, Bruce
      Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hi, Bleu -- I've enjoyed reading your emails, Bleu!
      leaping panther (darren.islar): hi Eos
      Sun (sunshine.vayandar): hi Eos ;)
      Pema Pera: welcome to the green grass of time!
      Eos Amaterasu: Hi gang :-)
      Coffee Mug: whispers: Ahh! Fresh Hot Coffee
      Monarchy Republic: what your fishie's name Bruce ?
      Maxine Walden: thanks, Bruce, a fresh mug for whenever
      Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Blub.
      leaping panther (darren.islar): hey Adams
      Monarchy Republic: :)
      Sun (sunshine.vayandar): hi Adams ;)
      Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): hello Adams)
      Adams Kira: hello everyone :)
      Maxine Walden: hi, Adams
      Bleu (bleu.oleander): hi Adams
      Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hey, Adams
      Coffee Mug: whispers: Ahh! Fresh Hot Coffee
      leaping panther (darren.islar): hi Riddle
      Sun (sunshine.vayandar): hi Riddle ;)
      Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Good day, Riddle.
      Bleu (bleu.oleander): hi Riddle
      Riddle Sideways: Hi full house
      Adams Kira: Hello Riddle :)
      Pema Pera: great to see you all again!
      leaping panther (darren.islar): Riddle you look ruthed
      Pema Pera: as I mentioned in my email, I hope to write more soon on Ch. 12, but for now we can discuss what    Bleu and Eos brought up
      Pema Pera: Eos, it is great to see you here too!
      Pema Pera: Shall we start with your notes, about "no view"?
      Riddle Sideways: ? (hmmm seen ok)
      Pema Pera: I really liked how you expressed that you can't talk about no-view
      Pema Pera: does anyone have a question or comment for Eos?
      Pema Pera: hi Fef!
      Fefonz Quan: Heya Pema, Timers :)
      Sun (sunshine.vayandar): hi Fef ;)
      Bleu (bleu.oleander): hi Fef
      Adams Kira: Hello fefonz :)
      leaping panther (darren.islar): hi Fef
      Eos Amaterasu: Maybe there's 2 questions: whether you can talk about "no view" in a "no view" way (ie,   whether speech inevitably brings in views, particular framings)
      Eos Amaterasu: and 2), whether "no view" means you drop out of life, or whether you can keep on doing normal things with "no view"
      Eos Amaterasu: as in the example of stopping the car when the light is red
      Fefonz Quan: well, @) should be discussed then before 1), since it includes it in a way.
      Fefonz Quan: 2)
      Eos Amaterasu: Yes!
      leaping panther (darren.islar): well, it's very simple to me: I do stop for a red light :)
      Maxine Walden: maybe we relate to many realities at the same time, and can obey the red light while still proceding as open-mindedly as possible (approximating no view)?
      Play as Being 15 minute bell: Conversations here are recorded when ON AIR. Please see http://wiki.playasbeing.org/
      Play as Being 15 minute bell: Please observe 90 seconds of silence.
      PaB Listener Master: Recording has started!
    Play as Being 15 minute bell: Thank you.
    Pema Pera: (oops, I came in late, and did not think about the recorder)
      Pema Pera: (Did anyone start the recorder, by any chance, before it started now?)
      Monarchy Republic: the universe ...did the stenography even if the recorder didnt ;)
    Pema Pera: (that's the problem of starting at 6 am?
      PaB Listener Master: Bleu Oleander has just claimed the session and will receive link to the log after the session is done. This replaces any previous claim.



    Pema Pera: (oops, I came in late, and did not think about the recorder)
    Pema Pera: (Did anyone start the recorder, by any chance, before it started now?)
    Monarchy Republic: the universe ...did the stenography even if the recorder didnt ;)
    Pema Pera: (that's the problem of starting at 6 am?
    Pema Pera: thank you, Bleu!
    druth Vlodovic: (it said it was sleeping)
    Bleu Oleander: yw!
    Fefonz Quan: FI i am not wrong, the recording start automatically on the hour of the meeting, ain't it?
    Pema Pera: no
    Pema Pera: only at the PaB session hours
    Pema Pera: not at 6 am SLT
    Pema Pera: I normally think about starting it by hand
    Pema Pera: but I had some difficulty coming in
    Pema Pera: so was late and forgot, sorry about that.
    Bleu Oleander: so it's recording now?
    Pema Pera: yes
    Darren Islar: well maybe Bleu can make a copy of the first lines in local chat
    Pema Pera: it says so in white letters at the base of the fountain
    Monarchy Republic: you start time by hand ? space and time ...Einstein would have been very interested in you Pema ;)
    Bleu Oleander: yes, i'll add them from my own log
    Pema Pera: thank you, Bleu!
    Pema Pera: sorry about that
    Pema Pera: I think we all agree on the answer to 2) for Eos :-)
    Riddle Sideways: yes, monarch
    Pema Pera: given that we are all here :-)
    Pema Pera: so what to do with 1)?
    Bleu Oleander: what was the answer to 2?
    Monarchy Republic: im here ,,because you are here to acknowledge that i am here ;)
    Pema Pera: 1) : whether you can talk about "no view" in a "no view" way (ie, whether speech inevitably brings in views, particular framings)
    druth Vlodovic: words define and make boundries around meanings
    Darren Islar: to me you're just here Mona
    Pema Pera: the answer to 2) was "no": 2) being: [06:11] Eos Amaterasu: and 2), whether "no view" means you drop out of life, or whether you can keep on doing normal things with "no view"
    Bruce Mowbray: I take "View" to mean a "style of interpretation" (hermaneutical approach).
    Bleu Oleander: how can one keep on living life with no view?
    Darren Islar: the question is if no-view means no view
    Bleu Oleander: nice question Leaping P
    Darren Islar: to me those are two different things
    Pema Pera: hi Disha!
    Bleu Oleander: can you explain that?
    Darren Islar: hi disha
    Darren Islar: I think the world is pretty real
    Darren Islar: so are views
    Darren Islar: what we forget is that it comes and goes, changes
    Darren Islar: we like to hold on to our 'view'
    Eos Amaterasu: style of interpretation is to no-view as this body is to life (perhaps...)
    Darren Islar: framing it
    Darren Islar: hmmmm, interesting Eos
    Bleu Oleander: I have many views .... context is important I think
    Fefonz Quan: so this body is what limits life in that metaphor?
    Riddle Sideways: seems 'speech' is a big problem in trying to talk about no-views, views
    Darren Islar: but the body is there
    Eos Amaterasu: it seems to be both the expression of life and a limited expression of life
    Darren Islar: for now ;)
    Monarchy Republic: speaking theoretically - everythings a theory -...but faith needs to be involved to actually make any progress ,,like your toe needs to make contact with solid ground for you to make a step
    Pema Pera: the problem with any view is that: even if the view is true in principle, our version of the view is most likely more limited that the view (in principle) can be
    Bruce Mowbray: To look for "progress" is already a way of viewing ---
    Pema Pera: so suspending judgment might be practically more efficient in explorations
    Darren Islar: to me there is not true view
    Pema Pera: yes, Bruce, so we would like to drop the idea of progress, for sure!
    Monarchy Republic: so why put a soul in a body ?
    Fefonz Quan: Maybe there is no problem with a view, as long as (it's so hard, yeah) we recognize that this is just a view
    druth Vlodovic: kbeing aware of your view and not buying into it is not the same as discarding a view for practical purposes
    Darren Islar: to me there is no soul either :)
    Pema Pera: discarding is very different from putting on hold, or suspending
    Monarchy Republic: okay ..electrical charge ..that is somehow capable of sentinence ?
    Pema Pera: we can go into neutral without affirming or denying
    Bruce Mowbray: So, would a rewording of #2 be something like, "Is it possible to exist and to be 'in neutral' in one's view?"
    Darren Islar: I wonder Peman, pondering
    Riddle Sideways: thanks bruce
    Pema Pera: well, "existing" is also part of a view
    Bruce Mowbray: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: yw
    Pema Pera: I want to be very radical
    Eos Amaterasu: "being in neutral", re the red light example, is not that the clutch is either engaged or neutral, but that your openness/open mind, is in neutral (open....)
    Pema Pera: there is appearance, yes, and we *conclude* existence, as a theory

    Pema Pera: yes, Eos :)
    druth Vlodovic: I think it is possible to use a view while not being that view, but I'm not sure that's what you're talking about
    Darren Islar: I see Eos
    Bleu Oleander: isn't "existence" just a word we have given to the situation we find ourselves in?
    Riddle Sideways: yes
    Pema Pera: any word is just a word . . . .
    Pema Pera: but existence implies continuation over time
    Pema Pera: birth and death
    Pema Pera: to say that we are born and that we die is a view . . . .
    druth Vlodovic: a word limits the imagination if you're not careful
    Monarchy Republic: lol ..a propoterous theory ;)
    Bleu Oleander: so not a fact that we are born and die?
    Pema Pera: which may or may not be true (with respect to some context)
    Pema Pera: it is a fact with respect to the context of material existence yes
    Pema Pera: just like being born and dying is also a fact to us in a dream within the context of the dream world
    Pema Pera: but not within the context of our material world
    Pema Pera: so it all depends . . .
    Darren Islar: (a bit late, but I dont' think neutrality exist in any way)
    Monarchy Republic: if matter exists ...then its whole meaning says it cant be un-mattered
    Monarchy Republic: unless matter is another matter entirely ;)
    Bruce Mowbray: Are we mixing up "mythic language" with "experiential language"?
    Pema Pera: what I mean is that even if we are absolutely convinced that matter exists, then that conviction is still a view - possibly a correct one
    Fefonz Quan: sure, b ruce :)
    Pema Pera: and it is possible to put that view on hold
    Pema Pera: how so Bruce?
    Bruce Mowbray: Pabbers stand united! is mythic language.
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Bruce Mowbray: I am typing this word - is experiential language.
    Xirana Oximoxi: :)
    Darren Islar nods to Peman
    Monarchy Republic: symbolism is alive and well ..and speaks ..even though our modern society tries to deny it
    Bruce Mowbray: So "existence" can be used in both "languages".
    Darren Islar: (the grass makes it more spacious, he says a bit distracted :))
    Bruce Mowbray and Blub love the grass!
    Darren Islar: :)
    Monarchy Republic: :)
    Riddle Sideways: we might be of 13+ languages around this circle
    Bruce Mowbray: and also 13+ "views" (at least!)
    druth Vlodovic: sounds almost like solipsism, "we can't know anything, assume everything may be not as we see it" to what end?
    Riddle Sideways: tough to use a word in all those languages
    Sunshine Vayandar: ;)
    Darren Islar: oh I bed far more then that :)
    Riddle Sideways: :)
    Eos Amaterasu: much more profound than solipsism, druth: solipsism still assumes you the solipsist are solidly there
    Monarchy Republic: if only we had 'detachable tongues ' things could get really interesting
    Eos Amaterasu: Still pondering Bleu's question:
    Eos Amaterasu: [06:21] Bleu (bleu.oleander): how can one keep on living life with no view?
    Bleu Oleander: there has been an evolutionary advantage to assuming that one is "there"
    Pema Pera: if nothing else, the human mind has the possibility to put its beliefs on hold, its views, with some training -- the question is whether there is any merit in doing so. I think there is
    Darren Islar nods at Bleu, for the material world it seems to be essential
    Pema Pera: (as long as you have enough to eat and drink, etc :-)
    Pema Pera: (we can de-condition ourselves from evolutionary survival to a great extent)
    Darren Islar: but don't we fall in new views Peman :)
    Monarchy Republic: thats where we fall down ...we have 'a monkey with a peanut ' mentality ..or a baboon ..we think we need more than we require
    druth Vlodovic: like the view that we have no view
    Monarchy Republic: even to our peril
    Riddle Sideways: not sure why neutral is such a hard idea. why must things be digital, all/none
    Pema Pera: putting on hold does not mean falling into something else
    Pema Pera nods to Riddle
    Darren Islar: there is this story of the world being carried by elephants (or something), whats under it, elephants, what's under it, elephants, etc, etc, etc
    Monarchy Republic: we need 0.5 Riddle ..giggles :)
    Pema Pera: 500 miliRiddles
    Sunshine Vayandar: ;)) hehe
    Riddle Sideways: (pls don't start the giggles)
    Bleu Oleander: are you suggesting neutral as a default possition?
    Pema Pera: no
    Pema Pera: I'm only echoing what Eos said, that there is more to explore
    Pema Pera: so why not do so?

    Fefonz Quan: infact it's the most non-default position of all
    Riddle Sideways: no, but there is a neutral (and other) positions
    Darren Islar: I think those elephants are even pink :)
    Bleu Oleander: in favor of more explorations
    Pema Pera: SL gives us great examples. Since I have a gender and race in RL, I generally view myself that way; but here in SL I can switch gender and race, and actually experience some of what it is like to be viewed differently.
    Pema Pera: so SL helps to open up my views of myself
    Darren Islar: I cna vouch that :)
    Pema Pera: :)
    Bleu Oleander: me too
    Sunshine Vayandar: ;)
    druth Vlodovic: or to feel differently
    Maxine Walden: nice example, Pema
    Pema Pera: I think we all appreciate the possibility of "wearing our views more lightly"
    Pema Pera: perhaps that's enough :-)
    Fefonz Quan: or maybe it's just another sophisticated mask?
    Adams Kira: :)
    Bleu Oleander: I think it's a mistake to assume though that one is experiencing a different gender by pushing a slider to a darker shade
    Pema Pera: sure, it only goes so far
    Fefonz Quan agrees with Bleu
    Darren Islar: true Bleu
    Monarchy Republic: i think its more general than that ...although neutrality was questionable when we were hunter gatherers ..but soon as we became agriculturalist ,,we are not neutral ...because it involves territory,planning and conservation
    Darren Islar: but a mix of gender is already there
    Darren Islar: it's to put some light on it
    Darren Islar: and some have it more then others
    druth Vlodovic: putting on a new mask is one thing, but allowing a difference to soak into your being and change you view is something else
    Pema Pera: yes, there is a continuum there
    druth Vlodovic: it doesn't give you understanding of others but of yourself
    Darren Islar: it changed me
    Darren Islar: understanding yourself may help understanding others
    Darren Islar: but agreed yes
    Darren Islar: adn i dont' think you put on a new mask, it's already there
    Monarchy Republic: i have a problem with change though ...because whenever you have a realisation the time it takes to acknowledge that change means its already part of you ..so did you change ,,or did you just discover the end of your toes ?
    Darren Islar: I think it's both
    Darren Islar: one can't do without the other I should say
    Bleu Oleander is still thinking about how no-view is not no view ...
    Eos Amaterasu: mabye no-view is ultimately that which experiences any view
    Monarchy Republic: i get you ,...i tend to shy away fro m groups that are anti - because there whole objective is negative .why cant they be pro
    Fefonz Quan: i think "no-view" is just some pointer to something that;s hard for us to grasp... and ther are others
    Bleu Oleander: so maybe "all-view" would be a better name?
    Eos Amaterasu: in a way, yes
    Darren Islar nods at bleu
    Bruce Mowbray: Maybe "no-view" is equinimity -- having neither preference nor prejudice.
    Eos Amaterasu: openness allows a cornucopia of views
    Fefonz Quan nods to bruce
    Pema Pera: beyond views would be another way of saying no/all views
    Bruce Mowbray nods at Bruce.
    Adams Kira: :)
    Darren Islar: and because all view exist, there is no-view
    Fefonz Quan: you too Bruce? ;)
    druth Vlodovic: I like "beyond-view" though it seems almost arrogant to declare that you've managed it
    Pema Pera: but yes, I like Eos's expression: like we need space in order to place objects: no-objects can make room for objects
    Monarchy Republic: hi Lucinda :)
    Pema Pera: no-view can make room for views
    Bleu Oleander: not sure beyond views is possible, but perhaps I don't understand "no-view" as you do
    Riddle Sideways: hi luci
    Darren Islar: hi Lucy
    Sunshine Vayandar: hi Luci ;)
    Adams Kira: Hello Lucinda :)
    Pema Pera: how about the space for views example, Bleu?
    Lucinda Lavender: whispering hi so as not to interrupt ...
    Xirana Oximoxi: hi Luci:)
    Pema Pera whispers back :)
    druth Vlodovic: maybe it is more of a goal than a possibility
    Eos Amaterasu: every time you drop off a view is a micro no-view experience
    Adams Kira likes how this ended up
    druth Vlodovic: when reporters decide that no-view was not possible and start placing their views in their articles it degrades the value of their articles
    Pema Pera: given that space is non-material, can't we have a "space for views" that is non-view?
    Monarchy Republic: you mentioned something about 'race' Pema ..ive never heard any conceivable arguement that 'race' exists ..other than the myth is constantly perpetuated ..so i have to almost blank it ..it doesnt make any sense to me
    Maxine Walden: have to go, see you all next time
    Pema Pera: bye Maxine
    druth Vlodovic: have fun max
    Monarchy Republic: tc Maxine :)
    Pema Pera: interesting point, Druth
    Adams Kira: bye Maxine :)
    Sunshine Vayandar: byebye Maxine
    Riddle Sideways: yes adams, like ending at view, no view, no-view, beyond view, all view
    Riddle Sideways: all can coexist
    Riddle Sideways: or not
    Adams Kira: :)
    Adams Kira: Room for all within Being
    Eos Amaterasu: trying to get at "openness" directly inevitably fixes; it's easier and more practical to notice when/how you're fixating, and experience the momentary dropping of that
    Eos Amaterasu: then it's highly personal
    Eos Amaterasu: because _I_ was stuck on that

    Darren Islar nods at Eos
    Pema Pera: I will have to go too
    Sunshine Vayandar: hi Arch, Freud
    Darren Islar: (not sure about the personal thing though)
    Pema Pera: thanks for joining us all here!
    Eos Amaterasu: must depart as well, thnx all!
    Darren Islar: hi Arch, Freud
    Bleu Oleander: bye everyone!
    Xirana Oximoxi: hi Arch, and Freud:)
    Darren Islar: bye Peman, Eos
    Freud Jungsten: osiyo

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