2011.05.09 07:00 - Beautiful Arguments

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    The guardian for this session was Eliza Madrigal, filling in for the world explorer Eden Haiku. Today I was joined by Yakuzza, Bleu, Bruce, Arch, Alfred, and Zen. We had a riveting discussion about an article Bleu shared with the time group a few days ago, and the whole PaB list this morning. :)


    [07:09] Yakuzza Lethecus: good morning eliza
    [07:09] Eliza Madrigal: Hi Yaku :)
    [07:09] Eliza Madrigal: How is your day so far?
    [07:09] Yakuzza Lethecus: pretty well, but, never go foodshopping when hungry!
    [07:09] Eliza Madrigal: Spent too much? :)
    [07:10] Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bleu!
    [07:10] Yakuzza Lethecus: hey bleu
    [07:10] Bleu Oleander: Hi Eliza, Yaku :)
    [07:10] Yakuzza Lethecus: yes, and especially sweet stuff
    [07:10] Eliza Madrigal: ooooh, I'm prone to that too
    [07:10] Eliza Madrigal: (overshopping when hungry) @ BLeu
    [07:10] Bleu Oleander: ah yes, me too
    [07:11] Eliza Madrigal: you should meditate on 'no needs' before shopping Yaku, and perhaps have lunch too
    [07:11] Eliza Madrigal: haha

    [07:12] Eliza Madrigal: How are you today Bleu? A little lonely here without Eden today, no matter if 20 of us pile in :)
    [07:12] Eliza Madrigal: especially knowing she will be gone for weeks
    [07:13] Bleu Oleander: fine thanks, yes, Eden is having a wonderful experience I'm sure!
    [07:13] Bleu Oleander: I was in Egypt a number of years ago
    [07:13] Bleu Oleander: fascinating place
    [07:13] Eliza Madrigal: ::::waves to Eden through the logs:::::
    [07:13] Eliza Madrigal: What is most fascinating?
    [07:14] Bleu Oleander: there is so much that is still there to see
    [07:14] Bleu Oleander: and in amazingly good condition
    [07:14] Eliza Madrigal: many places untouched by tourists?
    [07:14] Bleu Oleander: I found the tombs in the Valley of the Kings amazing
    [07:14] Eliza Madrigal: what an experience that must have been!
    [07:14] Bleu Oleander: tourism is always a danger
    [07:16] Eliza Madrigal: :)

    [07:16] Bleu Oleander: http://www.edge.org/documents/archive/edge342.html

    [07:16] Bleu Oleander: this is a fascinating article
    [07:17] Bleu Oleander: Pema suggested that I send it out to the whole PaB group
    [07:17] Eliza Madrigal: It seems a tough call, regarding tourism vs. allowing appreciation
    [07:17] Eliza Madrigal: Oh, yes I have saved that

                  Two strings....

    [07:17] Eliza Madrigal: would you tell us a bit about it?
    [07:17] Yakuzza Lethecus: i wonder if virtual worlds will soon provide a better experience of historical places then tourism itself

    [07:17] Bleu Oleander: confirmation bias .... very interesting
    [07:18] Eliza Madrigal: its an interesting question Yaku, tech would have to become more tangible
    [07:18] Bleu Oleander: the theory is that arguing evolved to help us persuade
    [07:18] Bleu Oleander: not necessarily to pursue truth
    [07:18] Eliza Madrigal: well, off hand that sounds right
    [07:18] Bleu Oleander: and that we naturally look for things to support our own point of view
    [07:19] Bleu Oleander: but that a better approach is to discuss in groups
    [07:19] Eliza Madrigal: (touching without tampering) @ Yaku re virtuality
    [07:19] Eliza Madrigal: filters?
    [07:19] Bleu Oleander: like PaB
    [07:19] Yakuzza Lethecus: with tourims i mean the issue that you are there for 2 weeks and rushing from place to place
    [07:19] Yakuzza Lethecus: *watching the article
    [07:20] Yakuzza Lethecus: so the experience in all details is missing even if you are ,,in the country"
    [07:20] Eliza Madrigal: so many structures are based on having to argue though....
    [07:20] Bleu Oleander: so something to watch
    [07:20] Eliza Madrigal: I agree that group dialogues are far more effective and fascinating
    [07:20] Bleu Oleander: that's why it's hard to make some decisions by yourself
    [07:21] Eliza Madrigal: the two party system in the US is becoming ridiculous, for instance
    [07:21] Bleu Oleander: can't argue with yourself ... hehe
    [07:21] Eliza Madrigal: hahah, well....
    [07:21] Eliza Madrigal: :)
    [07:21] Yakuzza Lethecus: partly you can be back and worth
    [07:21] Bleu Oleander: yes, the theory explains a lot about politics, religion etc.
    [07:21] Yakuzza Lethecus: you can take different positions within an argument
    [07:22] Yakuzza Lethecus: hey arch
    [07:22] Bleu Oleander: because of confirmation bias you are always looking for support for your own position
    [07:22] Eliza Madrigal: we base a lot of 'identity' on the ability of a person to form an opinion and to persuade
    [07:22] Eliza Madrigal: Hi Arch :)
    [07:22] Eliza Madrigal: ie 'this person believes that'
    [07:22] Bleu Oleander: hi Arch
    [07:22] Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bruce :)
    [07:23] Bruce Mowbray: Hello, Arch and Koya, Eliza, Yaku, and Bleu.

    [07:23] Eliza Madrigal: we're discussing the edges of the edge article that bleu posted in the time group
    [07:23] Eliza Madrigal: http://www.edge.org/documents/archive/edge342.html

    [07:23] Bleu Oleander: And here you're using reasoning. It's only when you're considering reasons, reasons to do something, reasons to believe, that you're reasoning. If you're just coming up with ideas without reasons for these ideas, then you're using your intuitions.
    [07:23] Bleu Oleander: (a quote from the article)
    [07:23] Bruce Mowbray: ty.

    [07:24] Eliza Madrigal: I'm someone who would like to be more reasonable, but I'm basically intuitive :)
    [07:24] Bleu Oleander: I think we're all a bit of both
    [07:24] Bleu Oleander: interesting to stand back and watch ourselves
    [07:25] Archmage Atlantis: Does reason preclude intuition? .....of for that matter, does intuition preclude reason?
    [07:25] Yakuzza Lethecus: intuitivly we are often corrrect in our actions even tho that it´s often hard to explain why we are acting in such a way
    [07:25] Bleu Oleander: it speaks to the importance of a wide range of inquiry
    [07:25] Eliza Madrigal: we can catch ourselves 'in the act', agree...
    [07:25] Bleu Oleander: intuition is not always the best way though
    [07:26] Bleu Oleander: so adding a little reason may help :)
    [07:26] Eliza Madrigal: but perhaps we've reached a point where we 'can't' take in enough information to be 'balanced'
    [07:26] Bleu Oleander: balanced, yes
    [07:26] Eliza Madrigal: indeed @ Bleu :)
    [07:26] Archmage Atlantis: I do not believe in "best" or "better"
    [07:26] Bleu Oleander: very hard today with so much offered

    [07:27] Eliza Madrigal: re dialogues, one of the things that attracted me to PaB was having been bored by 'interfaith' dialogues which seemed to neurtralize everything
    [07:27] Eliza Madrigal: without directly exploring a real ground
    [07:27] Eliza Madrigal: just trying to please everyone
    [07:27] Eliza Madrigal: zzzzzzzz
    [07:27] Eliza Madrigal: :)

    [07:27] Bruce Mowbray: If I can sustain my awareness, being "on the edge" or "out of balnce" can be powerful opportunities for learning.

    [07:27] Archmage Atlantis: I also do not believe in "real"
    [07:27] Bleu Oleander: what is a real ground?
    [07:28] Eliza Madrigal: ah, valid point too
    [07:28] Eliza Madrigal: I think what I mean is 'here'
    [07:28] Eliza Madrigal: whatever 'this' is where we are at any moment

    [07:28] Eliza Madrigal: say more Bruce?
    [07:28] Bleu Oleander: just noticing Bruce .... hi Bruce :)
    [07:29] Eliza Madrigal: Bruce snuck in

    [07:30] Bruce Mowbray: Being "here" - for me - sometimes having to look my own emotional reactions squarely in the face - - not being able to take refuge in reasons, routines, or . . . going along with what is expected of me.

    [07:30] Archmage Atlantis: I am at a point on a planet at a certain measured longitude and latitude, with an animal trying to be in my arms, or failing tha, on my keyboard
    [07:31] Archmage Atlantis: I am also meeting with the minds and dreams of others who can type in English, in an imagined, constructed pavilion.
    [07:31] Eliza Madrigal smiles
    [07:31] Archmage Atlantis: What of that is "real"
    [07:32] Archmage Atlantis: Or "divine"
    [07:32] Archmage Atlantis: or "truth"

    [07:32] Eliza Madrigal: perhaps reason and intuition are simply two sides of the coin, two different scopes
    [07:32] Bruce Mowbray: @ Bleu -- Is there a particular item/topic/theme in your TIME sessions report that you would like us to discuss or explore here? -- sry, because I came in late, not sure if you've already said that.

    [07:33] Bleu Oleander: they make a distinction between the different uses of the word reason

    [07:33] Bleu Oleander: In our theory, what's important to keep in mind is that reasoning is used in a very technical sense. And sometimes not only laymen, but philosophers, and sometimes psychologists tend to use "reasoning" in an overly broad way, in which basically reasoning can mean anything you do with your mind. By contrast, the way we use the term "reasoning" is very specific. And we're only referring to what reasoning is supposed to mean in the first place, when you're actually processing reasons.
    Most of the decisions we make, most of the inferences we make, we make without processing reasons.

    [07:33] Bleu Oleander: not sure what you mean Bruce
    [07:34] Bleu Oleander: say more?
    [07:34] Bruce Mowbray: I think you've just answered my question.
    [07:34] Bleu Oleander: ah ok
    [07:35] Bleu Oleander: we were discussing the article I sent out Bruce
    [07:35] Bleu Oleander: on Argumentative Theory
    [07:35] Bruce Mowbray: Oh -- OK, I read that one too.
    [07:35] Archmage Atlantis: Must go, Namaste and Blessings peeps :)
    [07:36] Eliza Madrigal: Bye Arch :) fly well
    [07:36] Bleu Oleander: bye Arch
    [07:36] Yakuzza Lethecus: bye arch

    [07:36] Bruce Mowbray: I thought the point was that "argument" is a SOCIAL phenomenon -- not just a form of individual reasoning.
    [07:36] Bruce Mowbray: Bye Arch.
    [07:36] Bleu Oleander: yes, exactly Bruce
    [07:36] Bruce Mowbray: ok -- -ty.
    [07:36] Bruce Mowbray: and also,
    [07:36] Bleu Oleander: so enforces the PaB concepts
    [07:37] Bruce Mowbray: that in an evolutionary sense, cultures are advanced by their capacity to sustain argument without self-destruction (civil war, etc.)
    [07:37] Eliza Madrigal: which leads into argument as antiquated perhaps... poiting to an open dialog as potentially far more effective?
    [07:38] Eliza Madrigal: is the difference merely that one has to come to a conclusion? right / wrong?
    [07:38] Bleu Oleander: I don't think argument is antiquated
    [07:38] Eliza Madrigal: limited?
    [07:38] Alfred Kelberry: hi :)
    [07:38] Eliza Madrigal: Hi Boxy :)
    [07:38] Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Boxy!
    [07:38] Bleu Oleander: argument is the good sense, not name calling hehe
    [07:38] Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zen :)
    [07:38] Alfred Kelberry: zen-san
    [07:38] Yakuzza Lethecus: hey boxy and zen
    [07:38] Eliza Madrigal: Hm, I may be affected by having teenagers
    [07:38] Eliza Madrigal: :)
    [07:38] Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Zan.
    [07:38] Bruce Mowbray: Zen. sry.
    [07:39] Bleu Oleander: hi Zen, Boxy
    [07:39] Alfred Kelberry: eliza, they always do :)
    [07:39] Zen Arado: Hi all

                Zen and Bruce had variations of their 'usual' appearances....

    [07:39] Eliza Madrigal: everybody's changing and I don't know why...
    [07:39] Eliza Madrigal: (Keane song)
    [07:40] Bruce Mowbray: As soon as someone (in the argument) says, YOU are unreasonable because you don't see it MY way, the group's capacity to keep the argument going is challenged. . .
    [07:40] Eliza Madrigal: Zen, may I ask if you read the article Bleu posted to the time group? re argumentative theory?
    [07:40] Bruce Mowbray: and that's not good.
    [07:40] Zen Arado: And I can't tell you why..." Eagles song
    [07:40] Alfred Kelberry: zen, it's a good one :)
    [07:40] Zen Arado: sorry no
    [07:40] Bleu Oleander: that's more like name calling Bruce
    [07:40] Eliza Madrigal waves to Observrm

    [07:40] Bruce Mowbray: but if the group is strong enough - understands that argument itself is healthy - then it might be able to handle that challenge. . .
    [07:40] Zen Arado: I got behind on that group
    [07:41] Eliza Madrigal: yes, if there are layers of support and acknowledgement
    [07:41] Eliza Madrigal: and humility
    [07:41] Bleu Oleander: I think the article is talking about giving valid reasons to an idea
    [07:41] Alfred Kelberry: *hums: look at us baby, up all night... tearing our love apart...*
    [07:41] Eliza Madrigal: :)
    [07:41] Bleu Oleander: :)

    [07:41] Zen Arado: I just feel you can't really understand some of these things at the level of reason and logic
    [07:42] Alfred Kelberry: zen, does it mean they are impossible to grasp?
    [07:42] Bleu Oleander: also talks about evaluating others' ideas
    [07:42] Alfred Kelberry: you simply accept them?
    [07:42] Zen Arado: it reminds me of how I got tired of all the argumentation and debate in philosophy

    [07:42] Eliza Madrigal: hmm... well I've been thinking about that, in the context of timeless time, which artists, scientists, many, do seem to tap into in spurts....
    [07:43] Eliza Madrigal: which implies a motive/focus/absorption/devotion
    [07:43] Eliza Madrigal: it can be reasoned about
    [07:43] Zen Arado: grasp intellectually...no
    [07:43] Eliza Madrigal: and written about
    [07:43] Eliza Madrigal: and has comparable characteristics
    [07:43] Eliza Madrigal: "flow"
    [07:43] Zen Arado: you can write about afterwards though

    [07:44] Zen Arado: like Einstein's ideas came to him from somewhere...but he then put them ina a conceptal framework and di the math
    [07:44] Eliza Madrigal: yes, but there was 'due dilligence' before that
    [07:46] Eliza Madrigal: there was groundwork for the ideas to come together in a precise way "in a flash"
    [07:46] Zen Arado: it's like spiritual truths and insights come from a deeper intuitive place
    [07:47] Zen Arado: yeh...Einstein was a bad example
    [07:47] Eliza Madrigal: and the groundwork was there due to a strange combination of many factors including capacity at birth and devotion

               in this context I was looking at devotion as something which drives interest, motivation...

    [07:47] Bleu Oleander: truths?
    [07:47] Eliza Madrigal: :)
    [07:47] Bleu Oleander: are there ultimate truths?
    [07:48] Eliza Madrigal: not with labels... that would imply freezing
    [07:48] Zen Arado: words like 'truth and reality seem to fall apart when you try to grasp their meaning
    [07:48] Eliza Madrigal: yes
    [07:48] Zen Arado: they are ineffectual
    [07:48] Zen Arado: I mean
    [07:49] Zen Arado: we get caught caught by their deceptive solidity

    [07:49] Eliza Madrigal: so many disagreements (maybe contrasted against the word arguments) are simply trying to take a point with us
    [07:49] Eliza Madrigal: and use it again
    [07:49] Bleu Oleander: perhaps our own confirmation bias gets in the way
    [07:49] Eliza Madrigal: :)
    [07:49] Zen Arado: ofetn we each ascribe a slightly different meaning to words
    [07:49] Zen Arado: and are arguing at cross purposes
    [07:49] Eliza Madrigal: yes, as Bleu quoted earlier about 'reason'
    [07:50] Bleu Oleander: pretty often actually :)
    [07:50] Eliza Madrigal: yet...
    [07:50] Bleu Oleander: there's no guarantee that your words will be received by another as you intended them to be

    [07:51] Eliza Madrigal: doesn't it seem that a place 'beyond reason' is one in which all arguers suspend belief and therefore almost 'forget' what they've seemed to have learned to that point?
    [07:51] Eliza Madrigal: that would take some strange skill
    [07:51] Eliza Madrigal: haha
    [07:51] Zen Arado: yeh we get trapped by wht we have learned
    [07:52] Bleu Oleander: I think reason is a tool to evaluate ideas/beliefs, but as the article points out it may not work so well by yourself

    [07:52] Bruce Mowbray: May I give an example -- from Quaker Meeting yesterday. . . ?
    [07:52] Bleu Oleander: sure
    [07:52] Eliza Madrigal: when I'm in SL, I sort of suspend thinking about whether it is real or not, doesn't seem relevant for my purpose
    [07:52] Eliza Madrigal: Oh, sure Bruce

    [07:53] Bruce Mowbray: Well, during the silent worship, one man spoke "into the silence" to say how beautiful it was to see his wife and daughter playing music together. . .
    [07:53] Bruce Mowbray: and then spoke of other beautiful things.
    [07:53] Bruce Mowbray: a few minutes later, (more silence) - I felt like I could "ENTER" the beauty --
    [07:53] Bruce Mowbray: go INSIDE the beauty. . . and know it from the inside -
    [07:54] Bruce Mowbray: rather than stepping back and observing it externally....

    [07:54] Zen Arado: yes...he was expressing sometrhing....painting with words
    [07:54] Eliza Madrigal: mmmmmm
    [07:54] Bruce Mowbray: BUT -- HOW could I possibly explain that in a rational way/ / / /
    [07:54] Bruce Mowbray: to someone -- in an argument for "How to appreciate beauty?"

    [07:55] Eliza Madrigal: :) well, in this context you conjured a description that we have had tastes of in life
    [07:55] Eliza Madrigal: therefore could imagine
    [07:55] Zen Arado: or explain what strawberry tastes like
    [07:55] Zen Arado: ice cream
    [07:55] Zen Arado: you can try but...
    [07:55] Eliza Madrigal: so one might well, decide that everyone had had a moment like that, whether they think they had or not.... and speak to that
    [07:55] Eliza Madrigal: :)
    [07:56] Eliza Madrigal: its 'a' reasoning, anyway.... not an external proof

    [07:57] Bleu Oleander: I think you are using reason in another way

    [07:57] Bruce Mowbray: Well, for me - it is surely a different "way of knowing" beauty -- than through the senses... or hearing someone else's descriptions of beauty.
    [07:57] Eliza Madrigal: yes

    [07:57] Zen Arado: the descriptions can be beautiful too

    [07:58] Bruce Mowbray: OK --- How about going "inside" a beautiful painting in a museum . . .
    [07:58] Bruce Mowbray: or putting yourself "inside" a beautiful scene in a movie?
    [07:58] Eliza Madrigal: for another person to be able to have the experience based on a description, they've already had it... capacity speaks to capacity, not necessarily with words
    [07:58] Bruce Mowbray: that is also a different way of knowing the beauty -- for me, anyway. . .
    [07:58] Zen Arado: to me it would defeat the objective of the painter

    [07:58] Bruce Mowbray: This is not easy to argue about -- and that's my point. . .
    [07:58] Bruce Mowbray: reasoning begins to fail me here.
    [07:58] Eliza Madrigal: yes :)
    [07:59] Bleu Oleander: I don't think its an argument
    [07:59] Zen Arado: Monet wasn't trying to paint the reality of water lilies

    [07:59] Bleu Oleander: you're just expressing a way to appreciate beauty
    [07:59] Zen Arado: paint a beautiful crazy interpretation of them
    [07:59] Eliza Madrigal: making an argument for not arguing in a way
    [08:00] Bruce Mowbray: excellent point, Eliza. . . an argument for not arguing.

    [08:01] Zen Arado: "In the koan "Ordinary Mind is the Way" Chau chou keeps pressing his teacher- "Should I try to direct myself towards it?" The teacher says "If you try to direct yourself you betray your own practice." Chao chou says "How can I know the Way if I don't direct myself?" His teacher says " The way is not subject to knowing or not knowing. Knowing is delusion, not knowing is blankness. If you truly reach the genuine Way you will find it as vast and boundless as outer space. How can this be discussed at the level of affirmation and negation?"
    [08:03] Zen Arado: in Zen they say 'the mind road' takes us further away

    [08:03] Bruce Mowbray: Does one "reach" the genuine Way -- or does one become it by "entering into" it?

    [08:03] Bleu Oleander: so Zen, a perfect example ... what reasons would you give to believe what you just typed?
    [08:04] Zen Arado: I can't give a rational explanation
    [08:04] Eliza Madrigal: here's a perhaps sillier example...
    [08:04] Eliza Madrigal: putting aside the issue of whether we will communicate with extra-terrestrials, etc., if/when we do, it will not be using words/languages...
    [08:04] Bleu Oleander: how would you persuade someone?
    [08:04] Zen Arado: I wouldn't try
    [08:04] Bleu Oleander: so if you can't give any reasons why should someone follow those ideas?
    [08:04] Zen Arado: it's up to them

    [08:05] Bleu Oleander: or put another way, why do you follow those ideas?
    [08:05] Zen Arado: I had to try lots of other ways first
    [08:05] Bleu Oleander: don't mean to push you ... just trying to show what the article was taking about
    [08:05] Zen Arado: it makes sense but ...

    [08:05] Yakuzza Lethecus me thinks that it sounds similar like what other ppl wrote before like ,,no view" and alike so believing a text that sounds similar to the expressions of other ppl we evalutate higher in their expressions that inreases the propablitly to ,,just accept it"

    [08:05] Bleu Oleander: and you eliminated those other ways?
    [08:05] Bruce Mowbray: The "reality" of Monet's waterlilies speaks more clearly than any verbal treatise (ideas) about them.
    [08:06] Zen Arado: got disillusioned with them
    [08:06] Bleu Oleander: so you gave yourself reasons to not go other ways
    [08:06] Zen Arado: yeh he expresses their beauty better than any exact photographic representation
    [08:07] Zen Arado: it just feels right

    [08:07] Bruce Mowbray: indeed, Zen, -- and so perhaps this is how we will "communicate" with extra-terrestrials and also enter the Genuine Way.
    [08:07] Zen Arado: but that doesn't sound very persuasive..
    [08:07] Eliza Madrigal: so to me this displays the difference between an argument model and a dialog/collaboration model
    [08:07] Eliza Madrigal: which may be just that, convincing
    [08:07] Eliza Madrigal: versus exploring

    [08:07] Bleu Oleander: we all give ourselves reasons to make decisions, sometimes though our own confirmation bias gets in the way

    [08:08] Eliza Madrigal: but I haven't read the article yet. tomorrow I may do a flip
    [08:08] Eliza Madrigal: haha

    [08:08] Zen Arado: we can't give a reason why we love someone?
    [08:08] Bruce Mowbray: ha ha.
    [08:08] Zen Arado: or our children
    [08:08] Bleu Oleander: even in exploring, you give yourself reasons to go one way or the other
    [08:08] Zen Arado: or our dog even
    [08:08] Bleu Oleander: sure we can, in very subtle ways we do
    [08:08] Eliza Madrigal: not sure that's the case

    [08:09] Bruce Mowbray: Hey, folks, gotta get out there and walk in that beauty today -- so I will big you g'bye - and enjoy this day!
    [08:09] Bleu Oleander: bye Bruce
    [08:09] Eliza Madrigal: and that seems a belief in the same way
    [08:09] Yakuzza Lethecus: bye bruce
    [08:09] Eliza Madrigal: Bye Bruce :)
    [08:09] Zen Arado: you could have a really awkward stubborn mutt but you still love him.....
    [08:09] Zen Arado: bye Bruce
    [08:09] Bleu Oleander: could say the same about a husband hehe
    [08:10] Eliza Madrigal: :)))
    [08:10] Zen Arado: yes
    [08:10] Eliza Madrigal: exhilarating today, thanks

    [08:10] Zen Arado: in fact you love the imperfections
    [08:10] Bleu Oleander: have to go ... take care all
    [08:10] Yakuzza Lethecus: bye bleu
    [08:10] Eliza Madrigal: Bye Bleu
    [08:10] Zen Arado: bye Bleu :)
    [08:10] Bleu Oleander: bye bye :)
    [08:10] Eliza Madrigal: yes the imperfections don't obscure the reality :)
    [08:11] Eliza Madrigal: the imperfections are not what 'the person 'is' but what they have
    [08:12] Zen Arado: or only imperfections to others
    [08:12] Eliza Madrigal: and therefore they could be said to be perfect
    [08:12] Eliza Madrigal: yes
    [08:12] Eliza Madrigal: 'in the light' of perfect devotion
    [08:12] Zen Arado: we find them endearing
    [08:12] Eliza Madrigal: or maybe I'd remove the perfect from that line :)

    [08:12] Zen Arado: hey...I have been strugglig for years trying to c'cut off the mind road'
    [08:13] Zen Arado: I have a very rational mind
    [08:13] Eliza Madrigal: yes, well that does seem like a struggle....
    [08:13] Eliza Madrigal: to have to get through many things in order to let oneself see
    [08:13] Zen Arado: always want to find reasons and logic
    [08:13] Yakuzza Lethecus: i don´t act very rational i guess, i wonder if rational ppl intuitivly act rational when it becomes a habit
    [08:14] Eliza Madrigal: I feel those follow along, come with the package
    [08:14] Eliza Madrigal: of no package
    [08:14] Eliza Madrigal: :)
    [08:14] Zen Arado: it's like trying to establish a rational foundation for life
    [08:14] Yakuzza Lethecus: if intuition at all is just the unconcous

    [08:14] Eliza Madrigal: perhaps part of the issue is that we look at intuition as the momentary thing that gives us just a little more 'help'
    [08:14] Zen Arado: even the word 'intuition' comes across wrong
    [08:15] Zen Arado: it's like we use all of our brain and emotions not just the rational part
    [08:16] Eliza Madrigal: intuition that serves reason, is sort of trapped by its agendas, would necessarily be limited? which seems a case for going 'beyond reason'
    [08:17] Eliza Madrigal: but that's perhaps like the needle's eye one has to drop some stuff momentarily at least
    [08:17] Eliza Madrigal: ? thus the forgetting
    [08:17] Eliza Madrigal: suspending
    [08:17] Eliza Madrigal: epoche'?
    [08:17] Zen Arado: allowing deeper things to emerge

    [08:17] Eliza Madrigal: mmmm
    [08:17] Eliza Madrigal: anyone up for perfect paradise? :)
    [08:17] Zen Arado: meditation helps
    [08:18] Eliza Madrigal: yes I think so too Zen... 'stopping'
    [08:18] Zen Arado: anything on?
    [08:18] Eliza Madrigal: maybe even just hundreds of times a day :)
    [08:18] Zen Arado: yeh
    [08:18] Eliza Madrigal: not sure, full list.... was there this morning having an interesting conversation

    [08:19] Zen Arado: reasoning just goes around in circles
    [08:19] Eliza Madrigal: which can be beautiful in its way
    [08:19] Eliza Madrigal: in its context and time
    [08:19] Eliza Madrigal: stirring dinner
    [08:19] Eliza Madrigal: heheh

    [08:19] Zen Arado: it's like trying to frame something ineffable
    [08:20] Eliza Madrigal: yes how?
    [08:20] Zen Arado: you can't
    [08:20] Eliza Madrigal: do you start by knowing whatever you say falls short?
    [08:20] Eliza Madrigal: then that gives room to explore
    [08:20] Zen Arado: think it always will fall short
    [08:20] Zen Arado: our senses and brains so limited
    [08:21] Eliza Madrigal: so we know it falls short but keep going....
    [08:21] Zen Arado: sure
    [08:21] Zen Arado: accept it
    [08:21] Eliza Madrigal: is that madness or play? heheh
    [08:21] Zen Arado: and enjoy the ride...
    [08:21] Eliza Madrigal: weeee
    [08:22] Eliza Madrigal: thanks for an interesting talk
    [08:22] Eliza Madrigal waves to away Boxy
    [08:22] Zen Arado: thank you
    [08:22] Yakuzza Lethecus: take care eliza, bye everyone
    [08:22] Eliza Madrigal: Bye Yaku if you are signing off
    [08:22] Eliza Madrigal: :)
    [08:22] Eliza Madrigal: :::Bows:::::
    [08:22] Eliza Madrigal: hehe
    [08:22] Zen Arado: bye all

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