2011.05.12 13:00 - out-of-body experience, where is the "me"? and more questions

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Lia Rikugun. The comments are by Lia Rikugun.

    Lia Rikugun: hi zon
    Lia Rikugun: hi bruce hi Qt
    Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Qt, Lia, and Zon.
    Qt Core: Hi all
    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Wol.
    Wol Euler: evening all
    Lia Rikugun: hi wol
    Qt Core: Hi wol
    Bruce Mowbray: Zon appears a bit fixated today.
    Wol Euler grins.
    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Zon!
    Zon Kwan: hello hello
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)


    the Halifax retreat

    Bruce Mowbray: I excited this afternoon -- I just made my flight reservations for the Halifax retreat,
    Wol Euler: woooO!
    Bruce Mowbray: I'm*
    Wol Euler: great news, bruce
    Bruce Mowbray: yeah -- feeling really good about it, too.
    Wol Euler: have you added yourself to the wiki page?
    Bruce Mowbray: Yeppers.
    Wol Euler: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: i haven't done my profile yet, though.
    Bruce Mowbray ponders his simple life and what to say about it.
    Lia Rikugun: hey cool you are gpoing to the retreat
    Wol Euler smiles.
    Bruce Mowbray: yes!
    Lia Rikugun: have you been to a PaB retreat before?
    Bruce Mowbray: my first RL retreat with PaB.
    Wol Euler: erm, what profile is this?
    Lia Rikugun: cool
    Bruce Mowbray: Eos has made a page for retreatants. . . and we're encouraged to write profiles there.
    Wol Euler: oh, I wonder where that is
    Bruce Mowbray: I thought that's what you meant by "wiki" -- but it's actually a "group" page, I think.
    Bruce Mowbray: I'll find it for you. . .
    Bruce Mowbray: just a sec.
    Bruce Mowbray: You're up there Wol.
    Wol Euler: up wherer?
    Bruce Mowbray: I'll give you an IM for the Google group now.
    Wol Euler: oh, not on the wiki
    Wol Euler: I see.
    Bruce Mowbray: No, it's a Google group for the retreat.
    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Arch.
    Wol Euler: :)
    Lia Rikugun: hi arch
    Qt Core: hi arch
    Zon Kwan: arch
    Zon Kwan: and cat
    Archmage Atlantis: Hi, Lia, QT, Wol, Zon
    Lia Rikugun: we were just talking about the nova scotia retreat
    Lia Rikugun: which will be in july i think
    Archmage Atlantis: Broke the last pair of bifocals today, so will be typing slow..........
    Wol Euler: sorry to hear that, arch :(
    Lia Rikugun: what would you like to talk about?
    Bruce Mowbray: July 17023 in Halifax, NS.
    Archmage Atlantis: It will be a good place, Nova Scotia
    Lia Rikugun: any experiences
    Lia Rikugun: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: ooop s-- July 17-23.


    Archmage Atlantis: Even for any who may doubt it
    Archmage Atlantis: Oh, the glasses, or the prophecies
    Bruce Mowbray: are you referring to the end of the world, coming on April 21st, Arch?
    Archmage Atlantis: The end of a perception of the world, perhaps......bifocals do that, give a perception of the world
    Lia Rikugun: hi gaya
    Qt Core: hi Gaya
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello :)
    Archmage Atlantis: Something like a third eye
    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Gaya!
    Wol Euler: hello gaya
    Archmage Atlantis: Namaste, Gaya
    Bruce Mowbray: ahhhh. . . a third eye. Those are rumored to be good.
    Lia Rikugun: can i ask a question I was thinking of before?
    Wol Euler: of course
    Archmage Atlantis: Until they are false, Bruce......then another more true vision must be found


    out-of-body experiences

    Lia Rikugun: what do you think of out of body experiences?
    Lia Rikugun: Is this possible? what is actually happening when it happens?
    Lia Rikugun: On drugs apparently you can have such kind of experiences
    Zon Kwan: and near death
    Lia Rikugun: how would ypu define out of body experience
    Zon Kwan: and while sellping
    Zon Kwan: sleeping
    Bruce Mowbray blushes at his mis-type -- should have been MAY 21st - not APRIL 21st.
    Archmage Atlantis: Shamen used drugs to achieve them......but they knew that they should not see them as clear, nor should they use them exclusively
    Bruce Mowbray: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_804166.html
    Zon Kwan: oh didint know tha world is endin again
    Wol Euler: I am eager to hear their explanations on May 22, 2011
    Gaya Ethaniel: I could be wrong but I remember a philosopher talking about her own such experience at Kira Cafe a while ago ...
    Bruce Mowbray: It has been statistically demonstrated that persons most likely to have out of body experiences are those who experienced childhood trauma of some sort.
    Lia Rikugun: ah interesting gaya
    Archmage Atlantis: True Bruce
    Gaya Ethaniel: I think she had that experience in a car accident ... something like that.
    Lia Rikugun: ok bruce, so what would this mean for the out of body expeirence, a bad thing?
    Bruce Mowbray thinks that it's impossible to get through chilhood WITHOUT trauma.
    Lia Rikugun: is this only an imagination?
    Gaya Ethaniel: What happens on 22 May?
    Bruce Mowbray: I know a close friend who experienced out of body -- during surgery.
    Lia Rikugun: or well our current idea of perspective is maybe the imaghination?
    Archmage Atlantis: Thinks though, that the trauma may not be from this life
    Wol Euler: we see that they are still here and the Rapture didn't come
    Bruce Mowbray: It changed his life, forever, he says.... and I believe him.
    Lia Rikugun: did he see himself lying there? bruce
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well, some say birth is also a trauma of some sort ...
    Bruce Mowbray: May 22nd is when the folks who didn't get raptured on May 21st explain why not.
    Archmage Atlantis: I have been clinically dead 3 times.........in adult form
    Lia Rikugun: oh arch
    Archmage Atlantis: Never had an out of body experience
    Gaya Ethaniel: hm? I should Google this ...
    Bruce Mowbray: out of body experiences, then, Arch?
    Archmage Atlantis: Until I came into SL
    Bruce Mowbray: none?


    how do you perceive the body in an out-of-body experience? where is the "me"?

    Lia Rikugun: bruce your friend did he see his own body lying there?
    Bruce Mowbray: If I might put in a plug for today's Ways of Knowing session (at the top of the next hour) - we will be talking about "truth finding us" and I'm wondering if out-of-body experiences might be a vehicle through which that happens.
    Lia Rikugun: how did he feel about his own body? where was his "me"?
    Bruce Mowbray: He did not see his body, no.
    Wol Euler: good questions!
    Bruce Mowbray: he went outside the room he was in.
    Bruce Mowbray: I shall remember to ask him these excellent questions.
    Lia Rikugun: (will there be a log for WoK?)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes as always :P http://waysofknowing.kira.org/
    Lia Rikugun: ah wonderful :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: So Lia, you're looking for this 'me'?
    Lia Rikugun: yes still am
    Lia Rikugun: where is it?
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Lia Rikugun: i a wondering because in different dreams and sallies I see my body sometimes, sometimes I see the scene from my eyes perspectives
    Lia Rikugun: sometimes i switch perspectives
    Lia Rikugun: sometimes there are multiple me's
    Lia Rikugun: so where is the real me
    Lia Rikugun: if anything like this exists
    Bruce Mowbray: yes, different focal points.
    Zon Kwan: me is a nice perspective
    Lia Rikugun: me is maybe just a perspective
    Lia Rikugun: nothing more attached to it :)
    Archmage Atlantis: Lia, could it be possible that all those "me's" are real?
    Zon Kwan: a point of view interacting with irs environment
    Bruce Mowbray suspects that all of his "me's" are "real."
    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Storm.
    Storm Nordwind waves
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello druth and Storm :)
    Lia Rikugun: yes somhow zon and creating something around this point of view
    Wol Euler: agrees with Bruce
    Wol Euler: hello storm
    Qt Core: Hi Storm, Druth
    Zon Kwan: i dont still konw what the word "real" means ?
    Lia Rikugun: yes arch somehow every me is real
    Wol Euler: hello druth
    druth Vlodovic: hey all
    Lia Rikugun: hi druth hi storm
    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, druth!
    Lia Rikugun: we are talking about the "me" and where it is? we were also talking about out of body experiences and seeing ones body
    Storm Nordwind: Oh thank you
    Zon Kwan: mwé is everywhere
    Zon Kwan: me
    Archmage Atlantis: Nice summary Lia, well done
    druth Vlodovic: I just ran away from this discussion :(
    Zon Kwan: also in an atom
    Wol Euler: heheh
    Zon Kwan: is a micro me
    Lia Rikugun: haha arch :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Zon Kwan: me is he subject end of subject-object relation



    Bruce Mowbray: there is danger of solipsism, perhaps, in thinking that every 'me' is real.
    Zon Kwan: i dotn believe in reality
    Archmage Atlantis: Nor do I, Zon
    Wol Euler: can you elaborate on that, bruce?
    Bruce Mowbray: well, if we are solipsistic (???) then we think that we MAKE everything outside ourselves.
    Bruce Mowbray: that the only real thing in the cosmos is "me"
    Bruce Mowbray: i once has a cat that was solopsistic.
    Wol Euler frowns. How does that relate to multiple me's?
    Bruce Mowbray: it got run over.
    Wol Euler: awwww
    Zon Kwan: but if the cosmos is full of holes called me
    Bruce Mowbray: the whole world disappeared.
    Wol Euler nods.
    druth Vlodovic: so that's what happened!
    Storm Nordwind chuckles
    Bruce Mowbray: You didn't notice that?
    Archmage Atlantis: Too much thinking....not enough caring, perhaps
    Wol Euler: I must have blinked then.
    Bruce Mowbray: afk for a sec.
    druth Vlodovic: to know if "me" is real you'd have to define "real"
    Archmage Atlantis: true enough, druth
    Zon Kwan: nods
    druth Vlodovic: no, to talk about it, "knowing" isn't really dependant on our ability to explain,
    Zon Kwan: real is like god
    Gaya Ethaniel: I think knowing the possibility of having different perspectives itself is quite nice :)
    Zon Kwan: many meanings
    Bruce Mowbray: b.
    Wol Euler: w.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Zen :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Zen.
    Storm Nordwind waves
    Wol Euler: hello zen
    druth Vlodovic: hi zen


    different but equally valid views?

    Archmage Atlantis: In our house are many mansions, if it were not so, we would not see it
    Zen Arado: Hi all
    Zon Kwan: hi dharma brother
    Gaya Ethaniel: Say more please Arch?
    Zen Arado: Hi Zon :)
    Archmage Atlantis: Gaya, what I see may differ from what you see, yet both are equally valid
    druth Vlodovic: can be equally valid, there is some dependancy on the observer's ability and objectivity
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Bruce Mowbray suspects that prior to about 1900 such questions would never be asked -- We saw what we saw and that was that.
    Zen Arado: what is 'valid'
    Zen Arado: valid to who?
    Bruce Mowbray: enter Freud and the relativists.
    Gaya Ethaniel: That was that :)
    Storm Nordwind: validity is not necessarily universal! ;)
    Archmage Atlantis: Oneself, Zen
    Archmage Atlantis: That is the only validity
    Archmage Atlantis: The only measure
    Zen Arado: but that's subective
    druth Vlodovic: we do all live in the same world, whether people like it or not, though I suppose these days that statement is contreversial
    Zen Arado: I can't see my typing drat
    Archmage Atlantis: Yes Zen, it is
    Bruce Mowbray: just keep enough credit on your card for your next purchase. . . (reality?)
    Zen Arado: was trying Phoenix
    Zen Arado: bavk to V2
    Bruce Mowbray loves V2.
    Archmage Atlantis: The viewer is the measure of the entity
    druth Vlodovic: heathen
    Storm Nordwind: Hey!
    Wol Euler grins.
    Bruce Mowbray: well said, Arch. It is not what we look at, but what we SEE that matters.
    Lia Rikugun: wb zen
    Wol Euler nods.
    Bruce Mowbray: wb Zen.
    druth Vlodovic: hi zen 2
    Storm Nordwind: Hi Ruth
    druth Vlodovic: if what we see isn't what we look at then our observation may be valid, or it may not
    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Ataraxia.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Atari :)
    druth Vlodovic: hi ata
    Zen Arado: ty Bruce
    Ataraxia Azemus: Hi everyone :)
    Lia Rikugun: hi ataraxia
    Zen Arado: Hi Violet :)
    Wol Euler: hello violet
    Archmage Atlantis: Greetings Ruth and Violet
    Bruce Mowbray agrees with druth, but to the viewer it only matters what is seen.
    Zen Arado: 'valid' is a kind of weasel word I think


    a world of our own?

    Zon Kwan: i think we all live in a world of our own
    Zon Kwan: our perceptions
    Gaya Ethaniel: weasel lol
    Zon Kwan: our bekiefs
    Zen Arado: assumes we all know what the level of validity is
    Bruce Mowbray: we make our own worlds, then?
    Zon Kwan: belifs
    Zon Kwan: yes
    Zon Kwan: bubbles
    Gaya Ethaniel: Cute they look though :)
    druth Vlodovic: "valid" can be a measure of truth or a filter to conceal reality from us,
    Zon Kwan: valid is something many bubble agree of
    Bruce Mowbray once again agrees with druth.
    Archmage Atlantis: I have 4 (maybe 5) of myself.....the snow leopard, the badger, the coyote, the human...this is not something I share lightly
    Zen Arado: it seems to suggest it has proof
    Bruce Mowbray listens intently to Arch.
    Zen Arado: a valid statement
    Archmage Atlantis: It is my shamnic self
    Ataraxia Azemus: I think experience is valid...genuinely lived.
    Storm Nordwind: "Valid" must presuppose the notion of "invalid". If so, what is "invalid"?
    Qt Core: have to go, bye all
    Lia Rikugun: bye qt
    Ataraxia Azemus: Take care, Qt :)
    Storm Nordwind waves
    Wol Euler: bye qt
    Zen Arado: that's a word disaled people don't like
    Gaya Ethaniel: Bye :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Having more prims than the sim can accommodate is "invalid."
    Archmage Atlantis: Invalid is to not acknowledge one's own internal voices
    Zen Arado: bye Qt
    Bruce Mowbray needs to go, also.
    Bruce Mowbray: Bye for now.It has been good.
    druth Vlodovic: if I smile at you and you think I am sneering and become angry at something I didn't intend, is that valid?
    Lia Rikugun: byebyebruce
    Wol Euler: bye bruce
    druth Vlodovic: cya those who are leaving :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Bye :)
    Zen Arado: bye Bruce
    Archmage Atlantis: Difficult question, druth
    Zen Arado: no
    Archmage Atlantis: That I see you as sneering, that is invalid in myself
    Ataraxia Azemus: It's a valid response...but it isn't the true situation
    Storm Nordwind: It's a experience of misperception. Why is your experience invalid?
    Archmage Atlantis: As I do not define myself in that way
    druth Vlodovic: to allow excessive subjectivity is to have people seeig only their own imaginations and demanding that others see things the same way
    Zen Arado: validity depends on how you measure it
    Zen Arado: ?
    Storm Nordwind: No that's intolerance, not so called excessive subjectivity
    Archmage Atlantis: Yet it is brave to ask the question
    Zen Arado: not sure the second part follows from the first part Druth
    Archmage Atlantis: And questions, they must be asked
    Archmage Atlantis: Not all is logic, Ze
    Zen Arado: don't I know it :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Got to move ... nice chat, thanks!
    Ataraxia Azemus: It's important to recognize the validity of others' experiences, even when they don't conform to ours
    Storm Nordwind waves
    Zen Arado: yeh me too
    Zen Arado: bye all
    Zon Kwan: life is not logical
    Ataraxia Azemus: I'm going to head next door, too; be well, everyone :)
    druth Vlodovic: my point is just this: to encourage the idea "everything is valid" is to remove personal responsibility for attempting to see things clearly
    druth Vlodovic: 'k, have fun guys
    Zon Kwan: goes too, bye
    druth Vlodovic: cya zon
    Archmage Atlantis: A last comment "everything is valid" is not what was said
    Wol Euler: bye to all the leavers
    Lia Rikugun: byebye and good night :)
    Lia Rikugun: thanks
    Wol Euler: bye lia
    druth Vlodovic: cya lia
    Wol Euler: I'm sorry, I have to go. I'm falling asleep at the keyboard
    Wol Euler: goodnight, storm, druth
    Storm Nordwind: Fair enough! Bye!
    Storm Nordwind: I think I will fly back too
    druth Vlodovic: 'night wol
    druth Vlodovic: :(
    Wol Euler: ha, can't tp out :(
    druth Vlodovic: cya

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