2011.05.14 13:00 - Forgiving

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Aphrodite Macbain. The comments are by Aphrodite Macbain.


    Aphrodite Macbain: Hiya Arch gtsy
    Archmage Atlantis: gtsy Aph, as I canot see myself
    Aphrodite Macbain: :-) not yet? or not ever?
    Archmage Atlantis: In this phase of time, of course
    Aphrodite Macbain: ah good.
    Archmage Atlantis: Yet, never, and ever
    Archmage Atlantis: strong thoughts
    Aphrodite Macbain: What's on your mind today?
    Archmage Atlantis: strong words
    Aphrodite Macbain: Yes, I thought I'd ask what is on people's minds today
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Aphrodite, Arch, Ewan :)
    Archmage Atlantis: The future of this which we choose to call humanity
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hey Sharon
    Ewan Bonham: Hi Folks!
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hello Ewan, great to see you again
    Archmage Atlantis: The great poets
    Archmage Atlantis: The imagineers
    Ewan Bonham: hi Aphro..
    SophiaSharon Larnia: imagineers I love that word
    Archmage Atlantis: The -prophets
    Aphrodite Macbain: The working group was thinking it might be nice to find out what's on people's minds, what is bugging them or of interest to them
    Archmage Atlantis: The insane
    Aphrodite Macbain: with the purpose of organizing some theme sessions around them
    Archmage Atlantis: You asked Aph, and I told you
    Aphrodite Macbain: Thanks Arch: the future of the world and the insane
    Archmage Atlantis: okir
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i'm here so infrequently at times, id have to get back into the swing of things to answer that Aph :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: What's of interest to you SophiaSharon?
    Aphrodite Macbain: in your own life for instance- RL
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i have thoughts in mind atm, but none really suitable for a theme session, really
    Archmage Atlantis: In the past, those who had visions were considered insane.......till Disney made that thinking safe as cartoons
    Aphrodite Macbain: Right now I'm interested how to effectively communicate, allowing others to have space
    Ewan Bonham: Yes, and there are many types of Vision..
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes Ewan
    Aphrodite Macbain: a vision for the world- perhaps Utopian visions
    SophiaSharon Larnia: this forum is pretty good for that aph
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes, the idea was topics to be discussed within these forums
    Archmage Atlantis: I offered mine, others will have to offer theirs, Ms Aph
    Aphrodite Macbain: One of my bigget challenges is communicating authentically without an agenda
    Archmage Atlantis: VG
    Aphrodite Macbain: OK Arch. Perhaps you can elaborate on one of your offerings

    SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Wester :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Wester, there's a seat next to Arch
    Wester Kiranov: hi all.

    SophiaSharon Larnia: hi GAya :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hello Gaya

    Archmage Atlantis: I do not see a world without an agenda
    Archmage Atlantis: We carry our own inside us
    Archmage Atlantis: We are more or less aware of it
    Aphrodite Macbain: Can you explain - is the agenda yours or the world's Arch?
    Archmage Atlantis: Sometimes more, sometimes less
    Wester Kiranov: sorry I sat on you arch
    Archmage Atlantis: Hey, np, contact, even virtual contact is enjoyed (Wester almost sits on Arch)
    Aphrodite Macbain: lol
    Aphrodite Macbain: We are raising some issues that are preoccupying us so we can use them for discussion

    Archmage Atlantis: I have been listening to a song a lot
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes?
    Archmage Atlantis: I can hear it, but I cannot quote it........"she tied you to your kitchen chair"....."she broke your throne"......"I've seen this room, I've walked this floor?
    Aphrodite Macbain: sounds like Leonard Cohen
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Jeff Buckley - Hallelujah
    Archmage Atlantis: Yes, it was Aph, but not the version
    Aphrodite Macbain: what do you think the song means?
    Archmage Atlantis: Yes, Buckley
    Archmage Atlantis: agree
    Ewan Bonham: It feels to me like oppression..
    Aphrodite Macbain: I've only heard Leonard's gravelly voice singing it
    Archmage Atlantis: To me, it mean life begins again
    Aphrodite Macbain: interesting- such different interpreations!
    Archmage Atlantis: Both, out of oppression, we begain again
    Ewan Bonham: Yes a rebirth..
    Aphrodite Macbain: She tied you to a kitchen chair she broke your throne, she cut your hair, and from your lips she drew the Hallelujah!
    Aphrodite Macbain: rebirth every second we breathe
    Archmage Atlantis: When I was a child I memorized a poem to say to my English Lit Class
    Aphrodite Macbain listens
    Aphrodite Macbain: can you still remember it?
    Archmage Atlantis: This is how it began
    Archmage Atlantis: THE ROYAL feast was done; the King Sought some new sport to banish care, And to his jester cried: "Sir Fool, Kneel now, and make for us a prayer!" The Fool's Prayer by Edward Rowland Sill. 1841–1887
    Archmage Atlantis: It continued
    Archmage Atlantis: The jester doffed his cap and bells, And stood the mocking court before; They could not see the bitter smile Behind the painted grin he wore He bowed his head, and bent his knee Upon the monarch's silken stool; His pleading voice arose: "O Lord, Be merciful to me, a fool! "
    Archmage Atlantis: It still makes me cry
    Archmage Atlantis: And I do not know why
    Aphrodite Macbain: For me It cries of futility and hopelessnes
    Ewan Bonham: For me , it is the opposite..
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes?
    Ewan Bonham: I feel almost relief that the days of asking for mercy are not on my radar any longer..
    Aphrodite Macbain: why - because there is no one to ask mercy of?

    Ewan Bonham: When I think of mercy, I think of forgiveness...
    Ewan Bonham: And that is something that I see as a matter of personal healing..
    Aphrodite Macbain: forgiveness for and from oneself?
    Archmage Atlantis: I think I can answer that
    Aphrodite Macbain: I find I am constantly feeling like I must ask for forgiveness from somebody
    Aphrodite Macbain: Yes arch?
    Archmage Atlantis: We have been forgiven, we need not ask for what is part of ourselves
    Aphrodite Macbain: forgiven by whom?
    Aphrodite Macbain: or what?
    Aphrodite Macbain: Wester? Gaya, Sophia?
    Archmage Atlantis: I have a meditation to go to......but I will say the answers to those questions.....by ourselves, and whatever we imagine as God
    Aphrodite Macbain whispers "thanks" Arch Bye!
    Gaya Ethaniel: Bye Arch ... :)

    SophiaSharon Larnia: i think forgiving yourself is harder for many than forgiving others
    SophiaSharon Larnia: but it depends :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well 'who' are we forgiving?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles At Gaya
    Aphrodite Macbain: Forgiving ourselves and forgiving others- both are hard
    Aphrodite Macbain: we tell ourselves stories that keep us unforgiving
    Aphrodite Macbain: angry and resentful
    Aphrodite Macbain: How to drop that?
    Gaya Ethaniel: I think looking at those stories can be useful?
    Gaya Ethaniel: But I'm sure there're many other ways to approach this ...
    Aphrodite Macbain: hmmm maybe as long as they don't hook us into more anger!
    Aphrodite Macbain listens to Gaya
    Gaya Ethaniel: I didn't say buy into those stories ... :)

    SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Eliza
    Wester Kiranov: hi eliza
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Eliza :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hello Eliza. We're talking about forgiveness and how to generate that spirit
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Aph, Gaya, Sharon, Ewan, Wester :)
    Ewan Bonham: hi Eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: ah, great topic
    Eliza Madrigal: (I said hellos but they don't show up in chat yet, guess lagging)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: they did for me :)
    Eliza Madrigal: ah, great thanks Sharon
    Aphrodite Macbain: I'm reading you Eliza
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    Eliza Madrigal: ah, now Wester appears! :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: Unforgiveness wrecks communication and relationships
    Aphrodite Macbain: It keeps us hard and isolated
    SophiaSharon Larnia: then you cant forgive yourself for not forgiving others and then end up one ball of unhappy
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Aphrodite Macbain nods
    SophiaSharon Larnia: sounds rather flip sorry :)
    Eliza Madrigal: the other night at my rl group we talked about this and the question that came up was 'what IS it really?'
    Aphrodite Macbain: how to unhook oneself from those feelings but at the same time how to look at them courageously
    Aphrodite Macbain: what is unforgiveness?
    Eliza Madrigal: yes
    Aphrodite Macbain: did you come up with an answer?
    Eliza Madrigal: one 'answer', though really no, was that it was freezing someone
    Aphrodite Macbain: perhaps it is negative feelings directed at one person or persons
    Wester Kiranov: it's not the negative feelings themselves
    Aphrodite Macbain: negative feelings that are sustained and used as a form of weapon
    Wester Kiranov: it's being attached to those feelings
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes, at the bottom of it, it's attachment to one's ego
    Eliza Madrigal: stuck with oneself in a hero role, sometimes
    Aphrodite Macbain: Takes up a lot of valuable energy
    Eliza Madrigal: or at least I've seen that with myself... yes
    Aphrodite Macbain: That might be part of what we learn to "drop" before we see who we are- the buddha within us
    Eliza Madrigal: but really, the more we tried to pin it down the more we couldn't :)) but that quality of energy loss we all related to
    Eliza Madrigal: yes
    Aphrodite Macbain: focussing on the loving kindness we all have

    Wester Kiranov: i think we should learn to drop unforgiveness, but not necessarity replace it with forgiveness
    Aphrodite Macbain: please say more Wester
    Wester Kiranov: because for me forgiveness also reeks of being Right
    Aphrodite Macbain: ah. It feels patronizing
    Eliza Madrigal: hmmm, nods
    Eliza Madrigal: may want to think of ourselves as forgiving, so add that overlay on top of the unforgiveness, hah what an onion
    Aphrodite Macbain: can we forgive w/o being patronizing?
    Wester Kiranov: and having a story that you have forgiven someone now is a bit better than having a story about someone having done something unforgivable
    Wester Kiranov: but not essentially different
    Aphrodite Macbain: in each case I guess the tender ego is making the judgements
    Ewan Bonham: For me, forgiveness is a way of letting Us witness to another's learning and redirection. Then it becomes an honor.
    Aphrodite Macbain smiles at Ewan

    Wester Kiranov: hi boxy
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Boxy :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hello Boxy!
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello boxy :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: We're discussing forgiveness
    Ewan Bonham: HiBoxy..
    Alfred Kelberry: wuff!
    Alfred Kelberry: hi :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Boxy

    SophiaSharon Larnia: forgiveness may have nothing to do with the other person, they may not even know
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes practising emptiness :)
    Alfred Kelberry: cute bunny :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bunny?
    Alfred Kelberry: yes, gaya the bunny
    Aphrodite Macbain looks around for a pair of long ears and a puffy tail
    Alfred Kelberry: neko girls has a nice tail :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: right Sophia
    Alfred Kelberry: sharon, agreed
    SophiaSharon Larnia: and im not sure if that even truly factors in the equation
    Aphrodite Macbain: what about the notion of asking forgiveness?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hmm
    SophiaSharon Larnia: brb
    Eliza Madrigal: it is a gesture I guess
    Gaya Ethaniel: Sorry got to go, have a good weekend :)
    Wester Kiranov: bye gaya
    Alfred Kelberry: bunny's leaving
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye gaya
    Aphrodite Macbain: if acknowledging the harm we have done - truth and reconciliation
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, there are times to do that I think
    Eliza Madrigal: but if we expect that we'll be miserable
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Alfred Kelberry: yes, eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: there have been times that I didn't know I had forgiven someone until something came up and the same charge wasn't there.... and I thought 'when did that leave?'
    Ewan Bonham: Smile...to Eliza...
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes, I guess the sting of anger has left the room and you didn't even notice it
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Eliza Madrigal: walking along... and it dropped itself
    Alfred Kelberry: eliza, time softens it
    Eliza Madrigal: :))
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, time does good work :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: time heals, along with bad memory
    Eliza Madrigal: heheh

    SophiaSharon Larnia: back, bye Gaya and lol Boxy :)
    Ewan Bonham: gOTTA RUN, FOLKS..:)
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Ewan,nice to see you
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Ewan
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bye
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bye! Ewan.
    Aphrodite Macbain: Thanks for coming
    Wester Kiranov: i'm leaving too. thanks for a lovely conversation
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Wester :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I'm off to a presentation as well....
    SophiaSharon Larnia: have fun all
    Aphrodite Macbain: what's being presented?
    Eliza Madrigal: neurolinguistic programming....
    Eliza Madrigal: part of the birthday stuff
    Alfred Kelberry: where?
    Eliza Madrigal: at paradise
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye for now <3
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Sharon :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: sounds really interesting. In RL or SL?
    Eliza Madrigal: here, on the beach at PP
    Eliza Madrigal: have a landmark?
    Alfred Kelberry: tp please
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes please!
    Aphrodite Macbain: forgot there was a beach
    Aphrodite Macbain: coming too Boxy?
    Alfred Kelberry: yes, in a bit
    Aphrodite Macbain: kk all's well with you?
    Alfred Kelberry: yep
    Alfred Kelberry: thank you for asking :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: yw. :-)

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