2011.05.14 19:00 - A Friendly Conversation about Friendly Conversations

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Pema Pera. The comments are by Pema Pera.

    stevenaia Michinaga: hi Paradise
    stevenaia Michinaga: Hokon
    Hokon Cazalet: Weeee! ^.^
    Hokon Cazalet: hi =)
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Korii
    stevenaia Michinaga: hi Pema
    Hokon Cazalet: hi pema and korii
    Pema Pera: hi Steve, Korii, Hokon, Paradise!
    Paradise Tennant: hiya hokon .. stev .. pema korii :))
    Hokon Cazalet: =)
    Paradise Tennant: smiles ..
    Pema Pera: quite a nice flying horse, Korii :)
    Pema Pera: Pegasus?
    Korii Tiger: ありがとう
    Pema Pera: you're welcome :-)
    Pema Pera wondering whether he is still dreaming
    stevenaia Michinaga: still training it to sit
    Paradise Tennant: smiles trying for a pic of the beautiful beings here tonight :)
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Pema Pera: angelic horses :-)
    Korii Tiger: i broke my cam
    Pema Pera: nice breeze, Korri :-)
    Pema Pera: *Korii
    stevenaia Michinaga: Korii's is more refined :)
    Korii Tiger: grrr
    Korii Tiger: brb
    Pema Pera: Thank you, Paradise!

    Steve referred back to an email discussion we had about an interesting article on the web, that Bleu had found: http://www.edge.org/documents/archive/edge342.html

    stevenaia Michinaga: Pema, in the discussion of "reasoning is mostly arguing", have you found dialogues such as what occurs here unusual?
    Pema Pera: yes, rather unusual
    Pema Pera: how about you?
    stevenaia Michinaga: perhaps unusual isn't the correct word
    stevenaia Michinaga: by my nature I try to listen more then defend
    Alfred Kelberry: wuff!
    Alfred Kelberry: hi :)
    Pema Pera: hi Alfred
    stevenaia Michinaga: hi boxy
    Alfred Kelberry: stev, wise :)
    Paradise Tennant: smiles hello barksy :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: although most political discussion tend to be less reason, more argument
    Pema Pera: but have you found many groups where, as a group, people tend to really listen carefully to each other?
    Pema Pera: yes
    stevenaia Michinaga: never saw the point
    stevenaia Michinaga: rarely, pema
    Pema Pera: trying to convince the other, but in the process putting off more often than succeeding :-)
    stevenaia Michinaga: preople seem to draw lines
    Pema Pera: it reminds me of the story of the four winds
    stevenaia Michinaga: ...listens
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    Pema Pera: who did a competition to try to let a lonely traveler loose his coat, by blowing ferociously
    Pema Pera: each one tried blowing even harder than the previous one
    Pema Pera: but the traveler kept hanging on to his coat, against all the odds
    Pema Pera: so they finally gave up
    Pema Pera: but then the sun smiled
    Pema Pera: came out and started shining
    Pema Pera: and the man took off his coat all by himself :-)

    I had heard this story from Stim, years ago, and it has lend itself as an illustration for quote a few occasions!

    Pema Pera: hi Druth
    Alfred Kelberry: good one, pema :)
    Paradise Tennant: hiya druth :)
    Alfred Kelberry: druth :)
    druth Vlodovic: hi
    stevenaia Michinaga: hi Druth
    Hokon Cazalet: hiya druth =)
    Paradise Tennant: find it much easier to reach consensus by written communication .. for some reason writing slows people down
    Paradise Tennant: what they communicate is more considered
    Alfred Kelberry: it's difficult to stay on the subject at hand when an argument happens :)
    Pema Pera: yes, Paradise, that's why I also prefer texting over voice in SL
    Alfred Kelberry: you start to take things personally and your ego grows
    stevenaia Michinaga: if you listen, eventually people make their point.... and the conversation can continue
    Pema Pera: for an argument to be useful, first all sides have to find common ground -- and that takes time and listening -- and only then can we focus on whether there are any read difference
    Pema Pera: yes, that too, Steve!
    druth Vlodovic: it can help start by agreeing with people and asking for clairification of points, people prefer to explain to a sympathetic audience
    stevenaia Michinaga: usual, if there are enough viewpoints, like a chinese menu, a better solution will emerge from a combination of thoughts *(synergy)
    Pema Pera: yes and yes :)
    Pema Pera: many conversations start out with the players responding to previous others in previous conversations . . . not directly understandable in the current context
    Pema Pera: takes time to put that aside
    stevenaia Michinaga: exciting things happen through combinatins and the "line" moves forward
    Alfred Kelberry: i think what's important is to focus on, not even the problem, but solution. it doesn't let the conversation go awry and selfish.
    stevenaia Michinaga: it becomes more interesting to all, as opposed to the one talking, when the dialogue becomes an education to all rather than a defence of reasons too
    Alfred Kelberry: *just read* i like all the comments :)
    Alfred Kelberry: sympathetic audience, chinese menu... nice :)
    Pema Pera: yes, Steve, very much so
    Pema Pera: interestingly, by trying to understand the other, rather than arguing against, you're also more likely to convince :-)
    Hokon Cazalet: yeah ive noticed that myself, i get a lot farther by entering the other's world, then show them how they can reach where i'm at; even if they dont want to go there, they have a road now

    Steve brought up a typical adversial pattern.

    stevenaia Michinaga: I often read the NYT science section where new ideas are often greated not by sckpticism, but disbelief by those who's ideas they displace
    stevenaia Michinaga: seems like a very inefficient ego based process
    Paradise Tennant: excuses herself for a few moments (dog is crying to go out )
    stevenaia Michinaga: people busy "owning" ideas
    stevenaia Michinaga: instead of opening eyes wider then they have been
    Pema Pera: yes, everybody ensconcing in their own castle
    stevenaia Michinaga: where is that "insecurity" from?
    stevenaia Michinaga: the castle sydrome
    Pema Pera: inner hurt that is not acknowlegded?
    Pema Pera: and therefore projected outwards as a danger to be protected from?
    stevenaia Michinaga: everntually most "new ideas" become old and are displaces or updated, seems people should figure out that ideas are never static and should be built upon and changed to enrich the idea, instead of rejecting anthing that changes it
    stevenaia Michinaga: *eventually
    Pema Pera: your question is a very good one, though: why do people not do the obvious, as you just outlined
    Pema Pera: my best guess is that it is hard to be really open, since we tend to hide our own hurt
    stevenaia Michinaga: seems their original idea did exactly that
    Pema Pera: and when we open up, we have to face our own pain and suffering too -- can't cover them over anymore
    Pema Pera: takes quite a bit of courage
    druth Vlodovic: peopleoften use words to create and defend status and worth, to challenge an idea is to challenge a person and their worth
    stevenaia Michinaga: perhapsthe hurt they are initially faced with their original idea would feel more pointless if their idea was replaced or changed
    Pema Pera: yes, too much tight identifcation (@ Druth)
    Pema Pera: it may be deeper, though, Steve
    Pema Pera: perhaps not so much the hurt connected with the idea at hand
    Pema Pera: but deeper hurt, over a lifetime, that has created a habit of half-hiding
    Pema Pera: and acting out of defense rather than being really open
    stevenaia Michinaga: when I work in groups seeking solutions, the better solution comes from all parties, usually not really know which piece blongs to who, like mushing colored clay together, eventually all colors merge into a new color
    stevenaia Michinaga: ( (into gray unfortunately)
    Pema Pera: :-)
    stevenaia Michinaga: but a better gray soltion

    That brought back memories from my high school days . . . :

    Pema Pera: "a whiter shade of pale"
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    Pema Pera: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mb3iPP-tHdA
    stevenaia Michinaga: saw Procol Harum once ..... a long time ago
    Pema Pera: oh, that must have been fun! How was it?
    stevenaia Michinaga: excellent
    Pema Pera: btw, I have to leave a bit early today, meeting somebody for lunch here in Tokyo
    Pema Pera: trying to juggle many different projects at the same time
    Pema Pera: (astrophysics, computer science, mathematics, philosophy :-)
    Hokon Cazalet: hehe
    Pema Pera: hard to choose . . . .
    Pema Pera: so trying to do them all
    stevenaia Michinaga: sounds like a very long and interesting lunch
    Pema Pera: and wondering why I can't find time to sleep (or eat sometimes)
    Alfred Kelberry: pema, wait for the sun to rise :)
    druth Vlodovic: if only you could integrate, then you'd only need to study one thing
    Pema Pera: not all at once :-)
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    Pema Pera: well, I'm trying, Druth -- but it's becoming a very big one thing :-)
    druth Vlodovic: or would that go from steve's technicolour to grey
    Pema Pera: called "aspects of Being" (^_^)
    Pema Pera: (I'll have to leave now, see you all soon again!)
    stevenaia Michinaga: bye pema

    Just when I was leaving, a couple uncouth characters dropped by, clearly griefers, and Steve took care of them.

    stevenaia Michinaga: had to eject them, sorry
    Hokon Cazalet: no im glad you ejected them
    stevenaia Michinaga: for the record, they are my first

    One of them reappeared quickly, cursing and asking why the ejecting, so Steve responded:

    stevenaia Michinaga: I guess banning comes next
    stevenaia Michinaga: because we prefer not to have a distruptive presence here
    Alfred Kelberry: :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: gone but not forgotten
    stevenaia Michinaga: I'll edit their names out of the log, I mean pema will...giggles
    stevenaia Michinaga: interesting how they come in and proved the point about argument, in this case a one sided argument that no one could or was intersted in responding too
    druth Vlodovic: "don't feed the trolls"
    Hokon Cazalet: yeah sorry bout that
    stevenaia Michinaga: sorry about what Hokon?
    Hokon Cazalet: eh sparring with them, though it seems they didnt reply to me anyways, so i guess no harm this time
    Paradise Tennant: smiles :)
    druth Vlodovic: 'night guys
    Paradise Tennant: good nite druth sweet dreams :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: night Druth
    Hokon Cazalet: goodnigty =)
    stevenaia Michinaga: kinda quiet here without a distuptive presences

    Comments by Stevenaia:  

    Although quiet as we appear, there was a secondary conversation within the "playasbinghere" Group that continued off screen (I did eventually share it with Hokon, realizing later that Hokon was not aware of this conversation and had just seen "quiet".)  With that I inserted the dialogue here, as you can see it took place late in the session after I first ejected both of the offenders and them banned another...

    [19:53]  boxy (alfred.kelberry): attention is what they feed on. sit quietly for a bit and they'll be gone :)
    [19:54]  stevenaia Michinaga: in this case I booted their asses out :) not my nature but... sometimes....
    [19:55]  druth Vlodovic: 'naia the barbarian!  GHURR!
    [19:55]  Paradise Tennant: lol  boy i  go out to walk the dog and looks  what happens :)
    [19:55]  stevenaia Michinaga: hehe, this too shall pass
    [19:56]  Samúð (oo0oo): you smile para?
    [19:56]  Paradise Tennant: smiles  always :)
    [19:56]  Samúð (oo0oo): :)
    [19:56]  boxy (alfred.kelberry): stev, that was reactive :) you should have just waited :)
    [19:56]  Samúð (oo0oo): like the sun rises.. so does para smile
    [19:57]  stevenaia Michinaga: if pema didn;t suggest it to me before he left, I may have waited a little longer, he seems to have seen them coming
    [19:58]  druth Vlodovic: <sniff> that was my second time at a griefing in PaB and I never got to ban anybody!  wah!
    [19:58]  boxy (alfred.kelberry): hehe
    [19:58]  boxy (alfred.kelberry): ok, next time let druth press the big red button :)
    [19:59]  Samúð (oo0oo): hehehe... /me missed all the bare knuckles action!
    [19:59]  Paradise Tennant: I could misbehave druth ?  have never been ejected ?  would be my first :)
    [19:59]  stevenaia Michinaga: time to step up to be a guardian at a meeting Druth......hands Druth the timeslot of her choice
    [19:59]  boxy (alfred.kelberry): para! :)
    [19:59]  boxy (alfred.kelberry): i'd like to see para misbehaving ;)
    [20:00]  druth Vlodovic: oh right, "with great power comes..."
    [20:00]  Samúð (oo0oo) pushes the big button on boxy's nose
    [20:00]  boxy (alfred.kelberry): ...the big red button :)
    [20:00]  stevenaia Michinaga: am ready with the camera
    [20:00]  boxy (alfred.kelberry): sam :)
    [20:00]  stevenaia Michinaga: smiles at Samúð
    [20:01]  Samúð (oo0oo): PaBers... we iz lolcats ats heart
    [20:01]  stevenaia Michinaga: I may have to put this dialogue in the comments of the post, if nobody minds minds
    [20:01]  druth Vlodovic: bummer
    [20:02]  Samúð (oo0oo): what a nice thouht... an instant network of support
    [20:03]  Samúð (oo0oo): wherever you are
    [20:03]  Paradise Tennant: it is   isn't  :)  I guess that is why people  like tweeting :)
    [20:03]  Paradise Tennant: there are instant reponses
    [20:03]  Paradise Tennant: the dalai lama  tweets :)
    [20:04]  Samúð (oo0oo): he can be in our support group
    [20:04]  stevenaia Michinaga: he is in Newark NJ this week at a peace conference
    [20:05]  stevenaia Michinaga: note, there is a hugh lag in this chat, some comments may not appear in the place where they were typed (I have been informed)
    ........inserted from Druth's IM to me
          [20:03]  druth Vlodovic: the "bummer" comment is totally misplaced, I was just thinking the same thing before you said it


    The conversation returns to the Playgota

    Paradise Tennant: smiles :)
    Paradise Tennant: funny how you happen sometimes on things that make you blink - disruptive or not disruptive :)
    Paradise Tennant: smiles was having lunch with my mom last week .. sitting at a sunny table and notices she was wearing more earrings per ear than I do .. kind of makes you wonder when your mom has more body piercings than you do :)
    Paradise Tennant: being observant is somethings we so often forget especially with those we really know well :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: is she trying to quit smoking?...looking for rational explanation
    Paradise Tennant: no she is just with it :)
    Hokon Cazalet: hehe i like the comment about your mom paradise =), sorry im slow to respond atm
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    Paradise Tennant: was kind of taken aback .. thought hey when did that happen .. I see her every week ..
    Paradise Tennant: just not really looking I guess
    Paradise Tennant: so easy .. for that to happen ..
    stevenaia Michinaga: I seem to be levitating tonight... and typing forever
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Paradise Tennant: could be worst things :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, I could think I'm levitating
    Paradise Tennant: lol
    stevenaia Michinaga: needed a soft landing
    Hokon Cazalet: hehe
    Paradise Tennant: we are a quiet group tonight :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: smiles
    Paradise Tennant: funny how it is nice just to sit together :) do not need to talk really :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: http://www.ted.com/talks/ron_gutman_...f_smiling.html
    stevenaia Michinaga: speaking of smiles
    Paradise Tennant: perfect :)
    Paradise Tennant: wow this is great stev ..
    stevenaia Michinaga: posted to me by a former guardian
    Paradise Tennant: 1 smile = 2000 bars of chocolate in terms of brain simulation wonder what laughing does :)
    Hokon Cazalet: hehe
    Paradise Tennant: smiles !
    Paradise Tennant: smiles thank you for your company hokon ... barksy .. stev and for the conversation :) and the great link on smiling :) but getting a little sleepy here so going to say good nite
    stevenaia Michinaga: night PAradise, sweet dreams
    Hokon Cazalet: byebyes paradise =)
    Hokon Cazalet: ☻
    Paradise Tennant: :)
    Hokon Cazalet: i gotta head to bed folks, got work tomorrow
    stevenaia Michinaga: me too jsut did a big yawn
    Hokon Cazalet: hehe
    stevenaia Michinaga: night and thanks for the company
    Hokon Cazalet waves
    stevenaia Michinaga: night
    stevenaia Michinaga: night boxy
    Hokon Cazalet: night boxy =)
    Hokon Cazalet: Weeee! ^.^

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    I wasn't there so I don't know what was said or done in this particular case, however: I disagree with Boxy. Griefers (as opposed to mere loudmouthed dolts) neither deserve nor receive a second chance. And for the record, I always expel-and-ban (on those very few occasions when I've had to take action).
    Posted 09:06, 15 May 2011
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