2011.05.15 07:00 - Who we forgive, what to forgive, how to forgive

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Adams Rubble. The comments are by Adams Rubble.

    We were late getting started this morning. I sat by myself for twenty minutes enjoying a rainy day in RL and in tidying my inventory in SL. So much for high-mineded thoughts at the fountain edge.

    Then we had a bit of conversation about ruthing until Aphrodite suggested continuing a discussion about forgiveness she had recently attended. That earlier log does not seem to be posted at the time I am posting this. The title comes from Aphodite's summary as she introduced the topic.

    Adams Rubble: Hello Frenchie
    Frenchie Riverstone: hi
    Frenchie Riverstone: :)
    Adams Rubble: Welcome to Play as Being. Have you been here before?
    Frenchie Riverstone: yes
    Frenchie Riverstone: i look for Dash here today
    Adams Rubble: Ahhh
    Adams Rubble: I think they have something before this and come a bit later
    Frenchie Riverstone: yes
    Frenchie Riverstone: he is in SL now
    Frenchie Riverstone: what is this meeting to talk about today?

    Stopping

    Adams Rubble: There is no topic per se. Have you had a chance to try the 9 second pauses
    Frenchie Riverstone: is that now?
    Adams Rubble: wonderful :)
    Frenchie Riverstone: i'm sorry
    Adams Rubble: there is a 90 second pause coming up at 7:30
    Frenchie Riverstone: oh okay
    Adams Rubble: when we meet here is is 90 seconds; when we do it by ourselves it is 9 seconds
    Adams Rubble: although we do not have to limit it to that :)
    Adams Rubble: Hello Dash
    Dash Earthboy: hey Frenchie! ;)
    Adams Rubble: Hello Susan :)
    Frenchie Riverstone: you look different Dash :)
    iwandertoo Resident: waves
    Dash Earthboy: hi Susan

    Ruth Strikes Again

    Dash Earthboy: yes Frenchie, I'm a cloud in my viewer
    Adams Rubble: You look fine to me
    Dash Earthboy: but I've been told I look feminine today
    Frenchie Riverstone: yes :)
    Adams Rubble: ohh, you have been ruthed
    Frenchie Riverstone: what's that?
    Adams Rubble: it is an SL disease. It happened to me yesterday
    Adams Rubble: When you are not fully rezzed in it reverts to the original avatar form whose name was Ruth
    Dash Earthboy: wow
    Dash Earthboy: good to know!
    Adams Rubble: The best antidote I have found was to use viewer2, and then search for a leter like "a" in your inventoyr which forces it to load
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hi everyone
    Dash Earthboy: hi Aph
    iwandertoo Resident: waves
    Adams Rubble: then you have to find your old shape, hair, etc.
    Frenchie Riverstone: hi
    Adams Rubble: you can do that back in Phoenix if you prefer
    Adams Rubble: Hello Aphrodite :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hiya Adams
    Adams Rubble: It is a nuisance but fortunately very curable
    Dash Earthboy: yes i think i should :)
    Adams Rubble: I have never been able to fix it in Pheonix
    Adams Rubble: it is the only time I use viewer2 hehe
    Dash Earthboy: it's bothersome to not see anything but a cloud
    Adams Rubble: you can see your ruthed self if you rebake
    Adams Rubble: control-alt-r
    Frenchie Riverstone: you look fine dash :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: I have never found that works
    Aphrodite Macbain: You just look a little younger than you normally do
    Adams Rubble: :)
    --BELL--
    Adams Rubble: nothing wrong with being ruthed; we all go through it sometime
    Adams Rubble: whoops
    Dash Earthboy: ah, there goes the cloud at last!
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Xirana, Conccgrats Dash!
    Xirana Oximoxi: Hi Aph, Adams, Susan, Frenchie, Dash :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: Congrats
    iwandertoo Resident: waves
    Dash Earthboy: thank you
    Adams Rubble: Hello Xirana
    Dash Earthboy: hi Xirana
    Frenchie Riverstone: hi

    Aphrodite Introduces Forgiveness

    Adams Rubble: we have not established a topic so the floor is open
    Xirana Oximoxi: :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: In my last session we were talking about forgiveness
    Aphrodite Macbain: and what it really means
    Adams Rubble: interesting subject
    Adams Rubble: would you care to introduce it?
    Adams Rubble: summarize, I mean :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: who we forgive, what to forgive, how to forgive
    Aphrodite Macbain: the opposite of forgiveness might be constant anger and resentment
    Adams Rubble nods
    Aphrodite Macbain: very energy depleting!
    Adams Rubble: yes

    Soon we found that we were looking at the topic very differently

    Dash Earthboy: not sure that "opposite" is right word
    Dash Earthboy: one can be angry at somethings and forgive others while allowing the anger to remain
    Adams Rubble: yes Dash that is possible too but words are tricky
    Adams Rubble: maybe that is in the "how" Aprhrodite mentioned
    Aphrodite Macbain: is/are there anything that should not be forgiven?
    Dash Earthboy: the way i was taught, forgiveness is about not taking revenge, not about one's feelings/emotions like anger or grief or sadness
    Adams Rubble: how about forgiveness out of love
    Dash Earthboy: i know that Jesus used the word in the light of not taking revenge
    Adams Rubble: or compassion
    Adams Rubble: understanding
    Dash Earthboy: and forgave those who had no chance of heaven without requiring their repentance
    Xirana Oximoxi: if someone 'hurts' you, it's not easy to forive... and even if you do, you forgive but don't forget... but not necessarily it means to live with anger
    Dash Earthboy: but any who claimed to believe in the same God as the Jews were supposed to repent before asking for forgiveness
    Aphrodite Macbain: forgiving or refusing to forgive puts us in a dominant position that I'm uncomfortable with
    Xirana Oximoxi: maybe we can also relate to justice
    Aphrodite Macbain: how xirana?
    Xirana Oximoxi: and the rulles our society has
    Dash Earthboy: yes Jesus reprimanded the Pharisees for not seeking justice "as you should"
    Xirana Oximoxi: we have a limits that are established by society
    Adams Rubble: we can look at this on a higher level
    Dash Earthboy: forgiveness, like many concepts mentioned in the Bible, has been twisted to reflect many personal philosophies
    Adams Rubble: not as "self"

    Aphrodite views forgiveness on a personal level

    Aphrodite Macbain: sometimes it might be a personal thing. what we consider forgiving might not be anything to do with legality
    Xirana Oximoxi: whan someone moves outside this limits we feel danger and also don't know how to behave in relation to these ones
    Adams Rubble: maybe we need to look at the "what" to forgive
    Adams Rubble: not forgive the action but the cause of the action
    Aphrodite Macbain: in Buddhism, the challenge is to love and respect your enemy as much as your fried. In order to do this, one must forgive
    Frenchie Riverstone: right, wrong not always means legal
    Adams Rubble: why is this person hurting me
    Aphrodite Macbain nods at Frenchie
    Adams Rubble: he/she is hurting me out of ignorance
    Adams Rubble: we can forgive the ignorance
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes Adams

    Intentional Hurting

    Dash Earthboy: i have discussed the hurt with some who did it with intentions of hurting me
    Dash Earthboy: it was not "ignorance" of the pain they were inflicting
    Dash Earthboy: altho I consider it an ignorant way to approach life
    Aphrodite Macbain: that is harder to forgive Dash but perhaps letting
    Adams Rubble: there is ignorance behind the intentional infliction of pain
    Aphrodite Macbain: go is easier than holding on to the hurt
    --BELL--
    Dash Earthboy: i live with the hurt moreso than "holding on to it"
    Dash Earthboy: i don't hold onto my skin either
    Aphrodite Macbain: You couldn't do without your skin
    Dash Earthboy: why?
    Xirana Oximoxi: to try to hurt concioussly , I agree it's an ignorant way to approach life, and I would try to be away of this person... if possiblend
    Aphrodite Macbain: you'd fall apart!!!
    Dash Earthboy: yes Xirana
    Adams Rubble: yes Xirana, it is rare when we can't move away
    Dash Earthboy: ah Adams, sometimes we can't get away
    Dash Earthboy: without at least harming ourselves more
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes, we can become stuck
    Dash Earthboy: like chewing off our foot to get out of the trap
    Adams Rubble: that is when we need the highest form of forgiveness :)
    Adams Rubble: beyond our selves
    Frenchie Riverstone: yes people trap others
    Xirana Oximoxi: also, we can ask ourselfs why this person can 'hurt' us. which power have we given to him/her... and try to recover our control of it (that's talking in a teoric way)
    Aphrodite Macbain nods at Xirana
    Adams Rubble: yes Xirana and we can ask ourselves what is he/she hurting
    Dash Earthboy: sometimes I have to laugh at the idea the nobody can hurt us unless we give them that power
    Dash Earthboy: of course i've been involved in social work and law enforcement too much to give credence to such flimflam
    Aphrodite Macbain: Yes, it's hard to not get "hooked" by a cruel remark or action.
    Frenchie Riverstone: i can hurt others without they let me
    Adams Rubble: Just a reminder to be gentle in our discussion
    Frenchie Riverstone: and they hurt me that way also
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes Frenchie
    Xirana Oximoxi: yes, we usually give a lot of oursels in a relationship or friendship, if not, it looses part of his meaning and the wonderful
    Adams Rubble: sometimes we need to find the words to understand each other
    Aphrodite Macbain: we need to open up to others, but that makes us vilnerable to pain. This is where courage comes in
    Aphrodite Macbain: *vulnerable
    Adams Rubble nods to Aphrodite

    Zen arrrives and we are distracted from the conversation for a bit as avatars begin to arrive and others leave for the guardian meeting

    Aphrodite Macbain: a boddhisatva warrior
    Xirana Oximoxi: hi Zen
    Adams Rubble: Hello Zen
    iwandertoo Resident: waves
    Dash Earthboy: hi Zen
    Zen Arado: Hi all
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hiya Zen. I see you have been visiting Paradise!
    Zen Arado: visiting Kabuki
    Aphrodite Macbain: what news of Paradise?
    Frenchie Riverstone: sry, I must go...good talk today
    Adams Rubble: This waa an interesting disucussion this morning
    Zen Arado: Kabuki theatere presentation
    Adams Rubble: bye Frenchie
    Xirana Oximoxi: bye Frenchie :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bye
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bye! Frenchie - have a wonderful SUnday!
    Adams Rubble: Thank you for bringing it up Aphrodite
    Aphrodite Macbain: I must go too - another meeting
    Aphrodite Macbain: GTSY all
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bye
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bye!
    Xirana Oximoxi: bye bye Apph, nice day to you:)
    Adams Rubble: bye all, I will not be going to the next one
    Zen Arado: bye Aph
    Dash Earthboy: bye Aph
    iwandertoo Resident: waves
    Zen Arado: guess I better go
    Xirana Oximoxi: bye Susan:)
    iwandertoo Resident: (sorry zen)
    Xirana Oximoxi: 4 minutes
    Xirana Oximoxi: :)

    Dash, Xirana and I continue the conversation about forgiveness

    Xirana Oximoxi: I liked this subject too... we can learn how to forgive, also
    Xirana Oximoxi: maybe it's a matter to practice and it makes us feel better
    Adams Rubble: practice makes perfect. hehe
    Xirana Oximoxi: :)
    Adams Rubble: or closer to it anyway
    Dash Earthboy: practice, practice, practice...
    Adams Rubble: The power of forgiveness can be awesome
    Dash Earthboy: makes a good mantra
    Adams Rubble: yes Dash
    Adams Rubble: we all have experienced the power on not forgiving too I expect
    Dash Earthboy: the power of healing can be awesome
    Adams Rubble: yes dash
    Dash Earthboy: but i know too many young drivers who enjoy the power of tormenting others on the road
    Adams Rubble: griefers in SL
    Dash Earthboy: yes those too Adams
    --BELL--
    Adams Rubble: people dedicated to making others pay attention to them
    Adams Rubble: since the hour is up we can ignore this one :)

    Xirana leaves and Dash and I continue the conversation. Dash had revealed he had worked in law enforcement and we explore the different perspectives toward forgiveness. I am grateful to law enforcement people for helping keeping us safer every day; I understand that they often see the results of things people have done to other people that must be very taxing on them. As I write this, I regret not having said that to Dash directly. 


    Xirana Oximoxi: I will go now.... thanks for this nice talk and see you soon:)
    Dash Earthboy: ignore the bell?
    Adams Rubble: you too Xirana. Have a good day
    Dash Earthboy: bye Xirana
    Xirana Oximoxi: bye Adams and Dash :)
    Adams Rubble: I thought we could this time dash :)
    Dash Earthboy: in music I call that improvisation :)
    Adams Rubble: That is interesting you have been in law enforcement
    Dash Earthboy: yes
    Dash Earthboy: all the way back to being captain of the school safety patrol in 6th grade
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Adams Rubble forgot about safety patrols
    Dash Earthboy: dealing with playground bullies andhigh school tyrants and dangerous drivers in the zone
    Adams Rubble nods
    Dash Earthboy: but yes, even since then
    Adams Rubble: We owe much to people in law enforcement
    Dash Earthboy: one of saddest days in my life was arresting a fully uniformed deputy for shoplifting a dang tape measure
    Dash Earthboy: i'm glad he didn't blow me away when I stopped him at the door
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Dash Earthboy: i was not armed
    Adams Rubble: wow
    Adams Rubble: it gives you a very diffferent perspective on forgiveness
    Dash Earthboy: so here in SL I keep getting ramrodded with the idea that my pleas for justice go against Quaker beliefs and that we need to forgive all instead
    Adams Rubble: the two different perspectives can coexist
    Adams Rubble: one is protecting people
    Dash Earthboy: yes, i understand forgiveness as it was taught by Jesus
    Adams Rubble: the other is letting go of our hatred and anger
    Adams Rubble: both are needed
    Dash Earthboy: letting go of anger or hatred is not good if we go on to enable evil
    Dash Earthboy: think not so much of what you are killing as what you are allowing to live
    Adams Rubble: we forgive the person not the deed
    Adams Rubble: we condemn the deed
    Dash Earthboy: oh? so we condemn the damage done by cancerous cells but forgive them enough to keep them in our body?
    Dash Earthboy: look at it from a God's-eye view
    Adams Rubble: no, the cancerous cells are part of the body. we cut out the cells to preserve the body
    Dash Earthboy: the Earth as One
    Dash Earthboy: Hitler, bin Laden, Saddam Hussein, Son of Sam...cancers
    Adams Rubble: I think a root issue may be hate. We do not have to hate to protect people
    Adams Rubble: that does not mean allowing a Hitler to keep killing
    Adams Rubble: but hate is on a personal level and can consume us
    Dash Earthboy: yet, hating evil is exactly what brings us to action sometimes
    Adams Rubble: hate changes us
    Adams Rubble: I don't like the word evil
    Dash Earthboy: the only constant in this life is change
    Dash Earthboy: that's ok, I don't like evil at all
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Adams Rubble: evil suggests there is no person behind their action
    Dash Earthboy: oh?
    Dash Earthboy: i think a person can be aligned with evil
    Adams Rubble: it can be an excuse
    Dash Earthboy: the Devil's minions and such metaphors
    Adams Rubble: we make choices
    Dash Earthboy: i see excuses like you are speaking of "We were only following orders"
    Adams Rubble: yes
    Dash Earthboy: but I think the word "evil" applies just the same
    --BELL--
    Adams Rubble: once we apply the word evil there is no redemption
    Dash Earthboy: despicable just isn't sufficient to accurately describe the concept otherwise
    Dash Earthboy: whoa...no redemption?
    Dash Earthboy: the same Jesus who said to Peter "you will be the Rock upon which my church is founded" also said to him "Get behind me Satan (or adversary) during a disagreement
    Dash Earthboy: Satan is the embodiment of evil
    Dash Earthboy: in Jewish beliefs
    Adams Rubble: Yes, in Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition
    Dash Earthboy: yes
    Dash Earthboy: but redemption is possible through real repentance
    Adams Rubble: the same duality does not exist in the east
    Dash Earthboy: that was Jesus message
    Dash Earthboy: i hear ya about Eatern beliefs
    Dash Earthboy: Eastern*
    Adams Rubble: I am going to have to go soon but I'd like to go back a few steps first
    Dash Earthboy: are you referring to ancestor worship or something else that seems different from Middle East?
    Adams Rubble: I think the forgiveness issue is about what anger does to us individually
    Adams Rubble: anger can be a very destructive force
    Dash Earthboy: eating too much (gluttony) can be a destructive force
    Dash Earthboy: so I guess it's better to starve?
    Sunshine Vayandar: hi there ;) and see u soon ;)
    Adams Rubble: Hello Sun
    Sunshine Vayandar: ㋡ tryong to make it to the meeting
    Dash Earthboy: forgiveness is not just about anger
    Dash Earthboy: hey Sunshine
    Adams Rubble: no it also is about freeing us from hate
    Sunshine Vayandar: ;) byebyee
    Adams Rubble: bye Sun
    Adams Rubble: Sadly I must go. Thank you very much for this converation :)
    Dash Earthboy: i ascribe to "moderation in all things" rahter than "no hate" no anger" "unconditional love" and other such things which nobody has ever demonstrated to me
    Adams Rubble: Buddha believed in moderation of all things :)
    Dash Earthboy: sadly, I bid you adieu Adams
    Adams Rubble: It was nice seeing you this morning :)

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