2011.05.15 19:00 - Rules of Engagement

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Calvino Rabeni. The comments are by Calvino Rabeni.

    Alfred Kelberry: hi :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Hiya Boxy !
    Alfred Kelberry: i'll just sit here
    Calvino Rabeni: I've been wondering ... what exactly happens when you do "out of the box" thinking?
    Calvino Rabeni: Good evening Susan
    iwandertoo Resident: hi Cal, Boxy
    Alfred Kelberry: susan :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Welcome druth !
    druth Vlodovic: ty, hi all
    Alfred Kelberry: cal, you look at a problem from an unconventional perspective
    iwandertoo Resident: hi Druth
    Alfred Kelberry: druth :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Does it take you out of yourself?
    Alfred Kelberry: define "you"
    Calvino Rabeni: "Boxy"
    Alfred Kelberry: i don't think we can be out of ourselves as embodied creatuers
    Calvino Rabeni nods
    Alfred Kelberry: it's a good phrase for a metaphor of sorts
    druth Vlodovic: we can be out of who we usually are
    Calvino Rabeni: Perhaps its worth a try :)
    Alfred Kelberry: maybe by "out" you mean different?
    druth Vlodovic: we have nothing to lose but our minds
    Alfred Kelberry: druth, losing your family doesn't count?
    Calvino Rabeni: It is not easy to act in uncharacteristic ways
    druth Vlodovic: ai, what did I miss in the first five minutes?
    Alfred Kelberry: cal, yes, you have to obtain a certain amount of freedom for that
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, true .. how is that to be obtained?
    Alfred Kelberry: either personal or positional, i think
    Calvino Rabeni: It seems easily lost
    Alfred Kelberry: um...
    Alfred Kelberry: maybe
    druth Vlodovic: so much of our pov is defensive (or mine at least) it certainly feels dangerous to release it when others are around
    Alfred Kelberry: it's cultural, i think. how one was raised.
    druth Vlodovic: freedom has to be made in the mind, I think, or you get controlled by the conditioing factors

    Alfred Kelberry: yes, druth, the freedom of self is most challenging
    druth Vlodovic: you don't have real freedom without it, just different roads to choose from
    Calvino Rabeni: I found the carving needed to be done in the emotional sphere ... geting an idea is one thing, acting on it can take either courage or some other kind of emotional strength
    Alfred Kelberry: yes, cal. that's why i tend to believe that idea itself worth nothing. implementation costs millions.
    iwandertoo Resident: nods
    Alfred Kelberry: i just wish failure in our society wouldn't be so harshly chastised
    Calvino Rabeni nods
    druth Vlodovic: come from an unusually harsh societal/religious background, where a small mistake costs you eternity of suffering
    druth Vlodovic: this cauases a lot of fear, which was it's purpose
    Alfred Kelberry: ah, religion is just... well, i won't go there
    druth Vlodovic: religion, society, science, politics, we make distinctions between them now :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Do you know of any alternatives? For instance there's evolutionary evangelism and spiritual naturalism
    Calvino Rabeni: there are some people trying to get around that dichotomy
    Calvino Rabeni: I mean distinctions
    Calvino Rabeni: weaving something across them
    druth Vlodovic: agnoisticism does as well or better
    Alfred Kelberry: cal, i don't think there should be an alternative
    Calvino Rabeni: well maybe it could ... but if looked at using a marketing approach, it might need to be made more dramatic and juicy
    Calvino Rabeni: How's that, Boxy?
    Alfred Kelberry: just like that. many people live without it just fine.
    Alfred Kelberry: they all started out nicely as a way of living. certain traditions. but then greedy monks and popes turned them into what we have now.
    druth Vlodovic: I suspect religion's initial purpose was to brigde the distance between an idea and it's implementation
    Alfred Kelberry: possibly, druth. an idea of a better life.
    druth Vlodovic: and a method of achieving it
    Calvino Rabeni: mhm
    druth Vlodovic: using the power of ritual and doctrine to shore up will
    Alfred Kelberry: no, the power of doctrine is what popes want you to follow
    Alfred Kelberry: to replace your will with dogma
    druth Vlodovic: doctrine is a powerful tool for controlling both others and ourselves
    druth Vlodovic: if I use reason to create a doctrine then I can use it for my own good

    Alfred Kelberry: *thinks of birds* :)
    Calvino Rabeni: can you detail that, druth?
    Calvino Rabeni: a personal doctrine?
    druth Vlodovic: I might be misusing the word
    druth Vlodovic: I thought of doctrine as a rule or rules you are not allowed to question
    druth Vlodovic: ok, yes, you dedcide, for instance, a code of morals, then make a personal doctrine of it, so when in difficulty you will automatically make the sort of choices you had previously decided were correct
    Calvino Rabeni nods
    druth Vlodovic: it's just a trick to get your mind to do what you want it to, without effort, like creating a habit is
    Calvino Rabeni: habits and standards can be useful rigidities, I think you mean?
    Calvino Rabeni: well analogous to an experimental protocol
    Calvino Rabeni: you set the rules and play with them for a while
    iwandertoo Resident: perhaps boundaries that may be stepped beyond...but ground you while within
    Calvino Rabeni: and find out what works and what doesn't
    Calvino Rabeni: yeah
    druth Vlodovic: but you have to get to know them so you know they are determined by you and you can move them
    druth Vlodovic: even if you keep the rules you were taught, if you rewrite them they come under your control, instead of the other way around
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, if they can be altered without a great cost ... but on the other hand its important to really understand the more "fixed" rules as well
    druth Vlodovic: everything costs
    Calvino Rabeni: Like I know a master martial artist who studied the exact "rules" of gravity and the rigidities of bones, believe me, in obsessive detail, and it resulted in really refined skillfulness
    Calvino Rabeni: or like athletes do, learning the physics of their sport more precisely
    Calvino Rabeni: to get an edge
    Calvino Rabeni: This might be off topic, but, do you know of any open source software for the rules of multi-player games?

    Calvino Rabeni: I remember this girl I met once who made a whole simulation of her own self and family .. including "Sim-Daddy"
    druth Vlodovic: that sounds like an interesting project...
    Calvino Rabeni: in the old days .. before computing .. believe it or not .. :) children had a game called "House" and I seem to recall, it involved role play and the rules were entirely negotiable
    druth Vlodovic: we never seemed to argue about the rules much, in any of those games
    druth Vlodovic: or that might just be my memory :)
    Hokon Cazalet: =) hi alls
    druth Vlodovic: hi doctor
    Hokon Cazalet: hehe
    iwandertoo Resident: hi Hokon
    Hokon Cazalet: =)
    druth Vlodovic: the only real rule semed to be compromise
    Calvino Rabeni: Hi Hokon
    Hokon Cazalet: hi =)
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm feeling ... humf...laggy today ... how are you ... (?)
    Alfred Kelberry: i'm good
    Alfred Kelberry: *sips tea*
    Calvino Rabeni sips tea in unison
    Alfred Kelberry: well synced - no lags :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Not with the sips, only with the quips
    Calvino Rabeni: there's many a slip between cup and lips
    iwandertoo Resident: :)
    Hokon Cazalet: im gonna go visit a friend, have fun you guys =)
    druth Vlodovic: have fun hokon
    Calvino Rabeni: Take care Hokon
    Calvino Rabeni: It seems a bit difficult to be aware of the rules (habits) in relating, but I heard a story today
    Calvino Rabeni: someone I knew had an insight, and it was fairly brilliant
    Calvino Rabeni: and their friend started criticising it .. a bit of a rant actually
    Calvino Rabeni: and she noticed her body starting to contract
    Calvino Rabeni: but then relaxed the "freeze" and kept moving naturally
    Calvino Rabeni: and he looked at her as if to say "Hmm,you're not buying this, are you?"
    Calvino Rabeni: And then ... switched and said .. "Hey, really you have a point
    Calvino Rabeni: maybe I am like that and am not even aware of it myself"
    Calvino Rabeni: I thought it interesting
    Calvino Rabeni: What led to the switch
    Calvino Rabeni: of an old familiar pattern?
    Calvino Rabeni: It was unspoken
    Calvino Rabeni: and was her choice to change a physical response
    Calvino Rabeni: but I also thought he deserved credit too, for alertness and responsiveness

    Alfred Kelberry: could as well be a slap :)
    druth Vlodovic: he started to play a game of personality/position
    Alfred Kelberry: what's that?
    druth Vlodovic: she decided not to play
    Calvino Rabeni: she made a choice to assert a different rule
    Calvino Rabeni: very creative
    Calvino Rabeni: he followed her lead too
    Calvino Rabeni: which is nicely responsive
    Calvino Rabeni: so they had a more fun game :)
    Alfred Kelberry: i think she improvised
    druth Vlodovic: "decided"
    Calvino Rabeni: Right druth, I can see it that way .. him asserting sort of "I know .. you don't "
    druth Vlodovic: almost a trite word for something like that
    Calvino Rabeni: Yup, decided to improvise
    Calvino Rabeni: instead of goign with the familiar
    Calvino Rabeni: seemed to qualify as "outside of (that) box"
    Alfred Kelberry: cal, i wouldn't call it "assert a rule"
    druth Vlodovic: I mean the ability to overcome conditioning and emotion
    iwandertoo Resident: night, best to everyone
    druth Vlodovic: 'nigth sue
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye, take care Susan
    Calvino Rabeni: Yeah druth, it did take that ability, a presence of mind I think, and some effort
    Calvino Rabeni: but I could tell it "paid off" a little energy in, more energy out
    Calvino Rabeni: yeah maybe boxy it is not a rule, unless it gets established as part of their menu of moves they know how to do
    Alfred Kelberry: how do we react when a certain common pattern breaks suddenly?
    druth Vlodovic: call it a dynamic then
    Calvino Rabeni: yup
    druth Vlodovic: fear, betrayal, anger
    Alfred Kelberry: it made him reassess the situation
    Calvino Rabeni: sometime by laughing
    Calvino Rabeni: humor breaks the rules
    druth Vlodovic: laughing is the best sublimation
    Calvino Rabeni: and gets away with it
    Calvino Rabeni: by somehow being safe enough
    Alfred Kelberry: cal, if it's funny :)
    druth Vlodovic: it doesn't need to be funny
    Calvino Rabeni: who knows, .. what makes something funny
    Calvino Rabeni: maybe "funny" is a dynamic
    druth Vlodovic: laughter has it's own power
    Calvino Rabeni: rather than a form or content feature
    Alfred Kelberry: i think it catches our attention and by this we become more aware of what's going on
    Calvino Rabeni: yeah
    Calvino Rabeni: and there seems to be some built up tension released
    Calvino Rabeni: or rather energy channeled? something like that
    druth Vlodovic: I remember in high school, sitting with a bunch of 15-16 yo
    druth Vlodovic: and the teacher wanted to show us a film about war
    Calvino Rabeni listens
    druth Vlodovic: it was pasting a bunch of images one after the other for impact
    druth Vlodovic: there is a famous photo of a girl (Korean maybe) clothes burned off by napalm or something running down a road
    Calvino Rabeni: (an iconic photo from the vietnam war)
    druth Vlodovic: so in front of us, on a big screen this image is posted without warning
    druth Vlodovic: so everybody laughed
    druth Vlodovic: the teacher looked disgusted, but all I could think was "what did you expect?"
    Calvino Rabeni: laughter is sometimes the first response to shock
    Calvino Rabeni: maybe that has an evolutionary advantage .. like someone getting thumped on the head with a branch accidentally .. a kind of slapstick
    Calvino Rabeni: better to laugh than to curl up in dismay
    druth Vlodovic: like getting hurt so bad you can't feel the pain until later
    druth Vlodovic: gives you time to face the emergency
    Calvino Rabeni: mmhmm yes
    Alfred Kelberry: soldiers at war use to joke about things that would seem awfully inappropriate back home
    Alfred Kelberry: i think otherwise you can't survive there
    druth Vlodovic: like that video of the reporter getting shot by americans
    druth Vlodovic: you can hear the americans talking, and hear their attitude

    druth Vlodovic: in what other manner could they afford to think?
    Calvino Rabeni: there's no shortage of examples on youtube.
    druth Vlodovic: wb H
    Calvino Rabeni: even in non-life threatening settings
    Calvino Rabeni: wb Hokon
    Hokon Cazalet: Weeee! ^.^
    Hokon Cazalet: hiya
    Calvino Rabeni: for instance "world's meanest cat" show this savage looking cat
    Calvino Rabeni: and it first it seems funny
    Calvino Rabeni: till you realize, the cat is terrified of the video camera
    druth Vlodovic: people use these emergency responses to condition people to accept the unacceptable
    Alfred Kelberry: i think it's like water in various states. it's still water, but different. you adapt to various contexts and you can't really easily relate to them from another one (e.g. war/peace)
    Calvino Rabeni: yeah perhaps true .. but scary movies and violent games seem like a kind of self-chosen contitioning
    druth Vlodovic: training people in crulty so that they will not only engage in cruelty, but accept deprivation in their own lives
    druth Vlodovic: well, that is different, that's drugging with endorphins
    Calvino Rabeni: Perhaps Boxy, the social context has a lot of effect on what is defined as funny or as violent or as acceptable or not acceptable
    Hokon Cazalet: like stnakle's comments, he made tons of assumptions, it simply feels right, ergo it is
    Hokon Cazalet: whoops
    Hokon Cazalet: lol wrong window
    Alfred Kelberry: i'm not sure about this violent games hype
    Calvino Rabeni: well Hokon, maybe we can go with it :)
    Hokon Cazalet: hehe
    Alfred Kelberry: i tend to think it's unrelated to rl shootings by teenages
    Hokon Cazalet: hehe calvino
    druth Vlodovic: it improves their shot groupings
    Alfred Kelberry: i think it's an excuse for something else
    druth Vlodovic: politicians need simple solutions to buy votes
    Alfred Kelberry: something that's much harder to fix than regulate video games
    druth Vlodovic: real solutions are seldom simple
    Alfred Kelberry: stev :)
    druth Vlodovic: hey 'naia
    stevenaia Michinaga: waves
    Hokon Cazalet: hiya =)
    Calvino Rabeni: Hi Stevenaia :)

    Alfred Kelberry: same reason we all take our shoes off in airport
    Alfred Kelberry: illusion of security
    druth Vlodovic: not all illusion, but certainaly the "don't panic"factor is there
    Calvino Rabeni: well it is a show of drama
    Calvino Rabeni: does it build security (as a feeling, I mean) or undermine it?
    druth Vlodovic: it builds the feeling that the powers that be are concerned with security
    druth Vlodovic: so it depends on how much you depend on those powers
    Alfred Kelberry: reactive solution will never be efficient enough, but proactive (as they do in ben gurion) is too hard for them
    Alfred Kelberry: in airport security one incident defines a pattern (e.g. one show bomb)
    Calvino Rabeni: I agree, druth, it depends on things like, how much people believe in the "powers that be" ... maybe it matches authoritarianism as a value system
    Alfred Kelberry: *shoe
    druth Vlodovic: lol, "Bad choice of in-flight movie! ground plane! ground plane!"
    Calvino Rabeni: :)

    Calvino Rabeni: There was that article on the PaB list on discussion-as-argument
    Calvino Rabeni: and we're used to debate-as-war metaphors
    Calvino Rabeni: I liked Pema's response to that ... sort of, uncovering some of the patterns ... and if you show patterns, then maybe next the unspoken "rules" can be questioned

    It's one of these cases where you recognize what is being said as something which you sort-of knew, but you had not been able to put your finger on it, and you're marveling at the clarity with which it is being expressed.

    I think it contains interesting lessons for PaB as well.

    Once we realize that reasoning is mostly arguing, a way to consolidate your already existing opinions, we can discern different ways of doing so.

    The simplest way to reason/argue, is to confront someone else saying "I disagree".  Here is an example:

    A: I think X.

    B: I disagree.  I think Y.

    Clearly, that's neither very helpful, nor very pleasant.

    Chances are than immediately both sides harden their position, drawing battle lines, and defending X and Y.

    The PaB way of reasoning, as it developed very quickly and is still developing, is more along the lines of:

    A: I think X.

    [ B thinking: X???  How odd, I'm pretty sure it is Y !!!...how interesting that a nice person like A can have such a strange idea -- I want to know more about that ]

    B: can you say more?

    A: ... (saying more) ...

    [ B thinking: aha, now I have more of an idea where A is coming from and the context for thinking X.  But let me make sure I understand, before comparing with my ideas ]

    B: ah, how interesting.  So you think X, because of ... (this and that) ...

    A: yes, but not quite like that, more like ... (such and such) ...

    [ B thinking: okay, that is very helpful, now I have a more clear picture -- though I still think that Y may be more correct.  Let's see whether we can figure out our differences. ]

    B: I see.  That helps me to understand why you think X.  I myself had thought Y, but I may have to reconsider.  My main argument for Y, rather than X was ... (gives argument) ...  How does that fit in with your picture?

    At this point, A happily can extend the picture already sketched and shared, in order to point out how A sees things differently from B, and they both can walk around the issue, looking from different angles, while together finding new vistas.

    Initially, I had not clearly realized that this had become the PaB way of reasoning by playfully `comparing notes'.

    It only became clear when we had a few visitors joining us for a while who were not operating in that mode.  Their much more jarring way of reasoning (like in many academic forums, or political forums) was very helpful to bring out, in contrast, what it is that we are all sharing here.

    druth Vlodovic: one way to discern patterns in politics is to ask "who benefits?" without trying to connect to "who caused it?"
    Calvino Rabeni: yeah or in economics .. the "follow the money" technique
    Calvino Rabeni: Although, I remember all the "who caused it" talk about the financial collapse
    Calvino Rabeni: fingers pointed at the derivative creators
    druth Vlodovic: when 9/11 happened I laughed at people who said it was done by the US gov't
    Calvino Rabeni: but some pointed legitimately in many other steps of the financial cycle
    druth Vlodovic: but the authoritarians in a lot of governments have benefited a lot
    Calvino Rabeni: yeah, they can game the system most effectively
    Calvino Rabeni: until perhaps it collapses due to emergent properties
    Alfred Kelberry: yes, the world did lean towards conservative nationalist in many places
    Alfred Kelberry: fear is the best weapon
    Calvino Rabeni: but you could also say that of temptation, manipulating people through greed
    Calvino Rabeni: possibly one term for that is "soft power"
    druth Vlodovic: greed is a bad motivator, since eventually you have to pay them with something
    Calvino Rabeni: although fear and greed seem pretty closely related, we're stuck in a push/pull between them
    Calvino Rabeni: greed is a great motivator .. the real estate bubble was driven by it, both for the financial sector and the home owners
    Alfred Kelberry: greed on wall street is a property of the culture
    druth Vlodovic: greed is a great cause, I meant "method of motivating others"
    druth Vlodovic: "love of money is the root of all evil"
    Alfred Kelberry: everyone has the price
    Calvino Rabeni: "the devil made me do it"
    Calvino Rabeni: or maybe, my genes ?
    Calvino Rabeni: Or the "culture"
    Calvino Rabeni: if it weren't for that I'd be a perfect white angel
    Calvino Rabeni: too bad .. I had my hopes up on being perfecdet
    Calvino Rabeni: but somehow it ain't working out
    Calvino Rabeni: and I'd like to know where to point the fingers
    druth Vlodovic: be perfectly greedy
    Alfred Kelberry: *would like to listen to stev on this subject* :)
    Calvino Rabeni: lol .. can't even spell "perfect" correctly
    Calvino Rabeni nods
    druth Vlodovic: the power of the subconscious :)
    druth Vlodovic: ah yes, 'naia is perfect, lets hear from her!
    stevenaia Michinaga: looks up
    Alfred Kelberry: :)
    Hokon Cazalet: brb need a drink
    Calvino Rabeni: yay
    druth Vlodovic: she is perfectly unaware of us :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    Alfred Kelberry: druth, that's a good topic you touched on there
    stevenaia Michinaga: was searching logs periferally reading chat text, was there a question?
    stevenaia Michinaga: can't eat money for breakfast
    druth Vlodovic: topic?
    stevenaia Michinaga: they say that greed is not a vice you can satify with more
    Calvino Rabeni: nominations for the topic we've been on ?
    Calvino Rabeni: hmmm, motivation?
    stevenaia Michinaga: so the need is never satified
    Calvino Rabeni: whether there are "rules" or patterns we can be aware of and change?
    Calvino Rabeni: humor

    Hokon Cazalet returns
    Alfred Kelberry: druth, is it really a bliss to be unaware? take north korean people. i think many of them don't realize how their life is in comparison to other places. and they may even be happy.
    druth Vlodovic: if theyI used to look at photos taken of streets in different countries and try to count the number of people smiling
    druth Vlodovic: maybe we are unaware of the oppourtunities availible to them, so convinced are we that our way is best
    Alfred Kelberry: there are people who do want to know their future (and go to fortune-tellers, etc) and those who don't
    Alfred Kelberry: i prefer to stay unware in this regard
    Calvino Rabeni: It's said, happiness, and perhaps trauma too, are not so much in the conditions as in the interpretation, responses, and feelings about the conditions
    druth Vlodovic: we are conditioned to want (so we will buy) so we can never be satiated
    Calvino Rabeni: That's an interesting thought experiment, Boxy .. if an oracle could tell you the time / place / reason for your death ... what effect would that have?
    Hokon Cazalet: a cool movie idea =)
    Alfred Kelberry: cal, pretty drastic
    stevenaia Michinaga: sounds like a movie from somewhere
    Alfred Kelberry: given the oracle is not fake :)
    Hokon Cazalet: hehe
    druth Vlodovic: the insurance companies would go spare
    Calvino Rabeni: An evolutionary psychology perspective is that it's not conditioning, its more instinctive ... that is, we are to some degree driven by appetites that really never evolved to have enough of an "off" switch.
    Alfred Kelberry: i'd rather not know and live happily with hopes to live up to 100 :)
    Hokon Cazalet: i like that idea calvino, its one ive often thought about lately
    Alfred Kelberry: cal, like air :)
    Calvino Rabeni: There's a great old movie .. Seven Faces of Dr. Lao
    Calvino Rabeni: it deals with a fortune teller
    stevenaia Michinaga: Cal, I don;t thing even knowing the date of your demise you can change your nature
    Calvino Rabeni: who tells the truth
    druth Vlodovic: but is it true? look at all of the advertising, and the hard sell for "progress"and the evils of "complacency", why sell it so hard if it is natural?
    Alfred Kelberry: stev, change nature? what do you mean?
    stevenaia Michinaga: choose to do something "different" before you die
    Alfred Kelberry: it would sure change me :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: in what way
    Calvino Rabeni: Hmmm.. I don't know when my personal story book will reach the last page .. BUT, I do know that DINNER is nearly here and I'm RAVENOUS
    stevenaia Michinaga: wouldn;t you still be Boxy?
    Hokon Cazalet: yeah me too, right now i can pretend death isnt real cuz its ambigious the conditions itll be for me
    Hokon Cazalet: hehe calvino
    stevenaia Michinaga: enjoy Cal
    Calvino Rabeni: Thanks everyone .. enjoy, see you all later
    Hokon Cazalet waves to calvino
    druth Vlodovic: have a nice dinner you two
    stevenaia Michinaga: ok I may eat more cookies before I die, but I do that anyway, Boxy
    Calvino Rabeni: BYE :)
    Alfred Kelberry: stev, i think such a news would impact any person
    druth Vlodovic: I think learning I am going to die in five years would change me more than learning I will die in 40
    stevenaia Michinaga: what aspect of yourself would you change boxy?
    Alfred Kelberry: stev, i won't answer, sorry :)
    Alfred Kelberry: druth, yes, i'd think so
    Alfred Kelberry: the less you have of something the more you value it
    Alfred Kelberry: and most people don't realise how our lives are short
    stevenaia Michinaga: define "thing"
    stevenaia Michinaga: object or sence of something?
    stevenaia Michinaga: like love
    druth Vlodovic: you know, stuff
    Hokon Cazalet: yup, for most death is treated in a very "distant" way, its merely a "fact" that people die; the individual aspect of death is concealed, that I, me, will die, and only i die in my place

    stevenaia Michinaga: wealth only consisting of material possessions if very limitied in terms of potential fulfilment, some would value friendship more
    druth Vlodovic: the we drag it out, standing in the hospital, then "saying a few words" over the body, then the wake, the funeral, the burial, god, I almost hope I die in an accident with no body, just to spare people the misery
    Hokon Cazalet: yeah in our culture we pretend death isnt real, or personal; yet when death appears, we freak out, fall apart it seems
    stevenaia Michinaga: many do Hokon, not sure how it helps :)
    Alfred Kelberry: stev, to realize that you'll have to become rich first :)
    druth Vlodovic: meh, religious politics again
    Alfred Kelberry: druth :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: boxy, is that my punishemnt, or yours
    Alfred Kelberry: punishment?
    druth Vlodovic: "Money may not buy happiness, but I'd sure like the chance to find out."
    stevenaia Michinaga: to realize I HAVE to get rich first
    Alfred Kelberry: ah, not you in particular
    stevenaia Michinaga: oh
    Alfred Kelberry: i mean, money vs friendship
    druth Vlodovic: I've known a few rich people, we create our own unhapiness,
    stevenaia Michinaga: thoght you were setting the terms for my demise, thinking I would live forever then, never becoming rich
    Alfred Kelberry: haha
    Alfred Kelberry: that's an interesting logic :)
    druth Vlodovic: family is a funny question too, people complain about having too much and not enough, often it is the same person doing both
    stevenaia Michinaga: time for bed, before I get rich and then what?
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: night all
    Alfred Kelberry: night :)
    druth Vlodovic: 'night ';naia, long live and pove
    druth Vlodovic: live long and prosper
    druth Vlodovic: beh
    stevenaia Michinaga: lol
    druth Vlodovic: bed for me too
    Hokon Cazalet: hehe druth
    druth Vlodovic: have fun guys
    Hokon Cazalet: Weeee! ^.^
    Alfred Kelberry: bye
    Hokon Cazalet waves

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