2011.05.17 13:00 - Moving into the Fear, the Form, the really Scary Stuff

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Bruce Mowbray. The comments are by Bruce Mowbray.

    Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Luci.
    Lucinda Lavender: hey Bruce:)
    Lucinda Lavender: Is this the time there is a dream workshop as well?
    Lucinda Lavender: maybe at Kira?
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, Maxine's group is meeting now --
    Bruce Mowbray: do feel free to leave and go to the Cafe if you wish.
    Lucinda Lavender: ah
    Lucinda Lavender: It seems since I am home it would a good opportunity:)
    Bruce Mowbray: for sure!
    Bruce Mowbray: enjoy!
    Lucinda Lavender: how do I get there?
    Bruce Mowbray: I will give you an LM....
    Lucinda Lavender: ah I found I do have the lm
    Bruce Mowbray: OK.
    Lucinda Lavender: thanks Bruce...:)
    Lucinda Lavender: see you...
    Bruce Mowbray: yw. Have a good time.
    Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Sharon!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Bruce :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Qt.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: I see that a lot of PaB people are at the Dream Workshop and thought I'd keep you company :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Thank you!
    Qt Core: hi all
    SophiaSharon Larnia: you were alone for a minute lol
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Qt
    Bruce Mowbray: but I hope you'll feel free to go to the Cafe if you wish.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: oh I haven't been, I don't like to walk in the middle of those things
    Qt Core: it seems there are at least three evenst around here today, all busy playing
    SophiaSharon Larnia: 3? really?
    Bruce Mowbray: What's the 3rd, Qt?
    Bruce Mowbray: I know of the Dream workshop. . .
    Qt Core: north of here
    Qt Core: not at our level all arrows on the minimap
    SophiaSharon Larnia: heh
    Bruce Mowbray checks his mini.
    Qt Core: the sl retreat area ?
    Bruce Mowbray: Hmmm. . . . Don't know.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: they're not high enough on my radar for that
    SophiaSharon Larnia: ooh a mystery
    SophiaSharon Larnia wants to check it out now hahhaha
    SophiaSharon Larnia: I heard you're going to the Nova Scotia retreat Bruce
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I'm signed up and have bought my plane tickets . . .
    SophiaSharon Larnia: I read it, I meant :)
    Bruce Mowbray: are you going to be there too?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: how wonderful, have you even been there or near there? no I'm afraid not
    Bruce Mowbray: I have been in Halifax, yes... but never to a PaB RL retreat.
    Bruce Mowbray: In fact, I plan to stay two nights before and two nights after the retreat in Halifax itself.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: oh very nice :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Qt ----
    Bruce Mowbray: I was given an opportunity to read a dialogue between you and Wol about RL retreats...
    SophiaSharon Larnia: I'd like to see Gampo Alley :)
    Bruce Mowbray: and I must say that I agreed with just about everything you said there.
    Qt Core: :-)
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, Pema Chodron's monastery.
    Bruce Mowbray: But that is a long way north of where we will be.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: (nods and listening :) )
    Bruce Mowbray: The major reason that I am going to the retreat (I might as well confess it) - is that the prospect of doing so scared me to death (well, nearly).
    SophiaSharon Larnia: nods
    Bruce Mowbray: seems VERY high-powered for an old goat such as moi.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: aww :)
    Bruce Mowbray: yeah- - -
    Qt Core: just out of curiosity i spend some times in past days searching for flight to Halifax or Seattle... knowing it would end in nothing ;-)
    Qt Core: spent
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Aphrodite
    Bruce Mowbray: You never know, Qt. . .
    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Aph!
    Qt Core: Hi Aphro
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hello Qt, Bruce, Sophia
    Bruce Mowbray: We've been talking about going to RL retreats, Aph.
    Aphrodite Macbain: all packed Bruce?
    Bruce Mowbray: and our reservations about doing so.
    Bruce Mowbray: Almost all packed, thanks.
    Aphrodite Macbain: oh yes. I'm sad they are canceling the Seattle one
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i agree it is a scary thing, but the ones i met turned out to be just very friendly people <3
    Aphrodite Macbain: It's so close to me
    SophiaSharon Larnia: what??
    Bruce Mowbray: I had to get the house cleaned up first, because my friend will be here one night before we head out for the Big Apple.
    Bruce Mowbray: wait -----!
    Aphrodite Macbain: Seattle is close to me
    Bruce Mowbray: Aph, you're GLAD. . .
    Qt Core: the scare (for me at least) is not about the others but about myself
    SophiaSharon Larnia: they cancelled the Seattle retreat?
    Bruce Mowbray: May I politely ask, Why?
    Aphrodite Macbain: apparently it's a lot of work to have so many RL retreats
    Bruce Mowbray: Oh SORRY!!!! You typed SAD and I read GLAD -- MY problem here.
    Aphrodite Macbain: ah that would make a big difference:-)
    Bruce Mowbray: They have not actually cancelled it yet. . .
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes, it is a lot of work, I would imagine
    Bruce Mowbray: afk for just a sec. . .
    Aphrodite Macbain: they may postpone it till December but nothing is sure
    Bruce Mowbray: please continue and I'll be right back.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: it's still on the wiki
    SophiaSharon Larnia: I hadn't heard yet, i'm sorry Aph :(
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes- I got an email from Eos last week
    Bruce Mowbray is back.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: so will it go to twice a year?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: wb Bruce that was fast :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: I was hoping to meet Cal and Luci since they are in Oregon and Seattle
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes
    Aphrodite Macbain: and Bleu who had planned to attend
    Bruce Mowbray: I wonder if they will have one in the west and one in Europe each year...
    Aphrodite Macbain: maybe
    Bruce Mowbray: instead of 2
    Bruce Mowbray: in each.
    Aphrodite Macbain: "the west" and "Europe" covers a lot of territory
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hehe
    Bruce Mowbray didn't know how to say "the western hemisphere."
    Bruce Mowbray: and then "the eastern hemisphere."
    Aphrodite Macbain thinks he really did know
    Bruce Mowbray: I wish they'd have one in South Africa.
    Aphrodite Macbain: why?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i was just thinking that!!
    Aphrodite Macbain: we could all visit Sun!
    Bruce Mowbray: cuz I would go to meet Sunshine -- just for THAT!
    Bruce Mowbray: ha ha!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles
    Aphrodite Macbain giggles
    Bruce Mowbray: and it would be worth it!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: YAY! (yay!)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: \ o /
    SophiaSharon Larnia: | |
    SophiaSharon Larnia: / \
    SophiaSharon Larnia: whoops :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: hehe
    SophiaSharon Larnia: wow what else has changed around here?
    Bruce Mowbray: But YIKES! My round-trip plane fare to Halifax from Ohio is almost $800.
    Bruce Mowbray: Wow!
    Bruce Mowbray: That's a LOT of money.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yea
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Ohio? not far from me then, relatively :)
    Bruce Mowbray: where are you, relatively, Sharon?
    Aphrodite Macbain: imagine how much it would be from the west coast of Canada!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: 45 mins from Philadelphia
    SophiaSharon Larnia: south
    Bruce Mowbray: Oh cool!
    Bruce Mowbray: I was telling Aph that a friend and I will be leaving for New York tomorrow.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: I've missed every retreat except for one mini retreat, and for good reason each time on a case by case basis
    Bruce Mowbray: well, actually, we leave early Thursday morning.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: oh :))) I hope you have fun!!
    Bruce Mowbray: Did you wish to attend those retreats, Sharon?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yep
    Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: each one
    Bruce Mowbray: sorry you missed them, then.
    Aphrodite Macbain: they have a bit of money to give
    SophiaSharon Larnia: its not about the money
    SophiaSharon Larnia: eep brb
    Bruce Mowbray: The main reason I'm going to the Halifax retreat -- aside from wanting to meet the folks in RL - is that it provoked such an emotional reaction in me.
    Bruce Mowbray: I figured that anything THAT powerful is something I should look into.
    Aphrodite Macbain: oh? why Bruce?
    Bruce Mowbray: cuz I am NOT a fearful person -- normally, but this really scared me.
    Bruce Mowbray: and still does, in a way.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: back
    Bruce Mowbray: wb, Sharon.
    Aphrodite Macbain: what was it that scared you?
    Bruce Mowbray: because, Aph, I am a hermit, shy, withdrawn from society generally, and not at all as accomplished [professionally] as those folks.
    Bruce Mowbray: but what the heck.
    Bruce Mowbray: Life is nothing but the experiences we have. . . so why not a new one?
    Aphrodite Macbain: oh, I can understand it would be stressful Bruce for someone used to being alone most of the time
    Bruce Mowbray: ty.
    Bruce Mowbray: I am a totally non-competitive person. . .
    Aphrodite Macbain: it took and is taking courage for you to go there
    Bruce Mowbray: and I sure hope that we're not expected to be "experts" in anything. . .   ;-)
    Aphrodite Macbain: we are all experts at something
    Bruce Mowbray: I will flunk miserably, in that case . . . .
    Bruce Mowbray ponders what he's an expert at.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Arisia! so nice to see you!
    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Arisia.
    Aphrodite Macbain: at taking care of people, for one
    Arisia Vita: Hi all, may I join?
    Bruce Mowbray: Good to see you again.
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Arisia
    SophiaSharon Larnia: please do :))
    Qt Core: Hi Arisia
    Bruce Mowbray: awwww, Aph.
    Arisia Vita: so good to see you all
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, do join us, Arisia.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: I'm sure you're not expected to be anything, Bruce
    Bruce Mowbray: i was explaining to the others that I have chosen to ACT upon a fear.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: except, Bruce :D
    Bruce Mowbray: and that it was FEAR of something (namely a RL retreat) that provoked me into action.
    Bruce Mowbray: Well. . .
    Bruce Mowbray: I don't mean to PUSH a Buddhist agenda here...
    Bruce Mowbray: but when "form" moves into "formless" or
    Bruce Mowbray: "formless " moves into form...
    Bruce Mowbray: then that's where the action is, for me.
    Bruce Mowbray: and what happened is that there was a whole lot of FORM around the 'fear' thing.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hmm
    Bruce Mowbray: so i figured, this is a place of growth, potentially.
    Aphrodite Macbain: form and emptiness are one
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i admire that you are looking at it, Bruce
    Bruce Mowbray: My experience is that form and emptiness are wholly different.
    Bruce Mowbray: My fear was like a ROCK in my guts.
    Bruce Mowbray: so. . . . definitely something there to look into.
    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Zon.
    Zon Kwan: helloo
    Bruce Mowbray: Good to see you again, Zon.
    Bruce Mowbray: How about you folks?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Zon :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Does a powerful emotion inspire you toward investigations?
    Zon Kwan: yes
    Zon Kwan: always
    SophiaSharon Larnia: my first reaction is to run
    Bruce Mowbray: wonderful.
    Bruce Mowbray: ooops!
    Bruce Mowbray: a lag in the chat box...
    Aphrodite Macbain: apparently in the Heart Sutra Avalokitshvara says "Form is emptiness, emptiness is also form, form is no other than emptiness"
    SophiaSharon Larnia: (i understood the chat order )
    Bruce Mowbray: I was explaining to the others here, Zon, that I've decided to go to the RL retreat in Halifax because of my fear reaction. . .
    Aphrodite Macbain: Form is that which simply is before we project our beliefs on it.
    Bruce Mowbray: Oh yes, Aph...
    Aphrodite Macbain: (Pema Chodron)
    Bruce Mowbray: but. . .
    SophiaSharon Larnia: reading and understanding that are 2 different things
    Bruce Mowbray: (waits)
    Zon Kwan: yes fear is to be faced
    Bruce Mowbray: For me -- that quote from the Heart Sutra is the "ideal" -- but meanwhile, my experience is that they are different. . . (theory and practice are also different).
    Zon Kwan: must go , see ya
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Zon :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Bye, Zon!
    Bruce Mowbray: Some things clearly have FORM, for me. . . especially my reactive emotions.
    Bruce Mowbray: like FEAR.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i had this oddball idea, that matter is the emptiness of what dark matter may be, but that has nothing to do with this conversation lol
    Aphrodite Macbain: It's a paradox I have been having a hard time getting my head around
    Bruce Mowbray: Oh joy! That is GOOD, Sharon!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: giggles
    Bruce Mowbray: i don't think it's possible to get your head around it, Aph.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: seriously, i think it may have been pointing to the mind tho :)
    Bruce Mowbray: It seems to be something one needs to experience -- and at least to be clear about through experience.
    Bruce Mowbray: I doubt that it can be explained in reasoned words.
    Bruce Mowbray: i find that virtually everything that feels "true" to me is a paradox.
    Aphrodite Macbain: Pema Chodron does in a book I have but her explanation is too long to quote here
    Aphrodite Macbain: "Comfortable with Uncertainty"
    Bruce Mowbray: For example, it is so much easier for me to be "alone" in New York than here at the hermitage - where I live alone.
    Bruce Mowbray: (my southern Ohio farm).
    Bruce Mowbray: which book would that be, Aph?>
    Bruce Mowbray: I have several of hers.
    Aphrodite Macbain: I must go and find new forms in my emptiness now
    Bruce Mowbray: OK.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Aphrodite :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Thanks for joining us, Aph.
    Aphrodite Macbain: Comfortable with Uncertainty Bruce.
    Bruce Mowbray: Good to see you again!
    Qt Core: bye Aphro
    Bruce Mowbray: It feels almost embarrassing saying these things -- about fear, I mean.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i like how she made clearer to me that eliminating the ego isn't the way, but becoming friends with yourself. Of course I've heard of maitri before, but it sounded more understandable to me when she said it
    SophiaSharon Larnia: fear is part of you
    SophiaSharon Larnia: and me
    Bruce Mowbray: Pema Chodron has LIVED everything she writes about.
    Bruce Mowbray: experience is all --- not book-wisdom (except that which is a sharing of experience).
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, make friends with your various selves....
    Bruce Mowbray: that's where it begins.
    Bruce Mowbray: any thoughts on this, Aristia?
    Arisia Vita: If facts are the seeds that later produce knowledge and wisdom, then the emotions and the impressions of the senses are the fertile soil in which the seeds must grow. - Rachel Carson
    Bruce Mowbray: sry -- meant to type Arisia.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles
    Arisia Vita: Ari
    Arisia Vita: easier to type
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: picturing seeds :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: fertile soil
    Bruce Mowbray loves the image of "fertile soil."
    Arisia Vita: When the night has been too lonely and the road has been too long /And you think that love is only for the lucky and the strong/ Just remember in the winter far beneath the bitter snow/ Lies the seed that with the sun's love in the spring becomes the rose.
    Bruce Mowbray: OH! Love that song!
    Arisia Vita: me too
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: So, there is still hope, then?
    Arisia Vita: always
    Arisia Vita: It's the heart afraid of breaking that never learns to dance /It's the dream afraid of waking that never takes the chance/ It's the one who won't be taken who cannot seem to give/ And the soul afraid of dying that never learns to live.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hey maybe i'll add that to my profile lol
    Bruce Mowbray remembers the first time he heard that song sung "live" -- and how powerfully it impacted him.
    Arisia Vita: pls do, it suits you
    Bruce Mowbray: but if your heart is "afraid of breaking" and you go into the dance regardless . . .
    SophiaSharon Larnia: or being broken-hearted and dancing anyway
    Bruce Mowbray nods.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: (brb again)
    Bruce Mowbray feels that those are the REAL heroes. . .
    Arisia Vita: you speak of risks...
    Arisia Vita: To laugh is to risk appearing the fool. To weep is to risk appearing sentimental. To reach out to another is to risk involvement. To expose feelings is to risk exposing your true self. To place your ideas, your dreams, before a crowd is to risk their loss. To love is to risk being loved in return. To live is to risk dying. To hope is to risk despair. To try is to risk failure.
    Bruce Mowbray: to dive through the fear, risking everything, yes.
    Arisia Vita: But risks must be taken, because the greatest hazard in life is to risk nothing. They may avoid suffering and sorrow, But they cannot learn, feel, change, grow, love, or live. Chained by their attitudes, they are slaves, they have forfeited their freedom. Only a person who risks is free.
    Bruce Mowbray: Another paradox . . .
    Bruce Mowbray: It is through risking everything that we can embrace everything.
    Arisia Vita: is attending PaB a risk?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: (back again so sorry!)
    Arisia Vita: wb
    Bruce Mowbray recalls the Bob Dylan line, "He who is not busy being born is busy dying."
    Bruce Mowbray: of course, PaB is a risk.
    Bruce Mowbray: If not, then it is not real - not worth my time.
    Bruce Mowbray: wb, Sharon!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Malinson :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Hello, Malinson.
    Qt Core: hi Malinson
    Bruce Mowbray: We're just finishing up, I think, but you're welcome to join us.
    Bruce Mowbray: May I please ask, Have you been here before?
    Malinson Bloobury: That's okay, I don't wish to interrupt.
    Arisia Vita: it would not be an interruption, but an addition
    Bruce Mowbray: No problem, Mal. We've been going for over an hour and are probably going to disperse soon.
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, an addition!
    Bruce Mowbray: We might go on all night!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: heh
    Bruce Mowbray: May I please ask you, is it OK that we put your chat words into the chat log wiki that is published on-line?
    Bruce Mowbray: if you've not been here before, I will give you a notecard.
    Malinson Bloobury: I suppose I will have to be careful on the words I choose, but yes...you may.
    Bruce Mowbray: Thanks!
    Malinson Bloobury: will these words be used in other works?
    Bruce Mowbray: There's a notecard for you.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles, I try but it doesn't always work out :)
    Bruce Mowbray: They should be used ONLY in the chat log -- which I will put into the wiki later.
    Qt Core: just published on the net as the session log
    Bruce Mowbray: All is explained in the notecard, actually.
    Malinson Bloobury: Okay
    Bruce Mowbray: We've been talking about following your emotional reactions to things -- especially those that are foreboding...
    Bruce Mowbray: and using those reactions to show you where the next "unfolding" might be for you. . .
    Bruce Mowbray: a bit of a load to put upon you so quickly, sorry.
    Bruce Mowbray: but jump right in whenever you wish, Mal.
    Malinson Bloobury: emotions are feelings of instinct. As sentient beings we rise above the waters of instinct.
    Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm....
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i have to go, take care all :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Bye, Sharon!
    Qt Core: bye Sharon
    Malinson Bloobury: such things must always be contained by insight
    Malinson Bloobury: bye
    SophiaSharon Larnia: waves
    Bruce Mowbray is not sure he understands "instinct" -- thought his reactive emotions were conditioned into him.
    Bruce Mowbray: like fear of groups that "know more" than he does.
    Malinson Bloobury: all life reacts...but sentient life responds.
    Arisia Vita: We are nature's unique experiment to make the rational intelligence prove itself sounder than the reflex. - Bronowski - Ascent Of Man
    Bruce Mowbray LOVES Jacob Bronowski!
    Arisia Vita: ty
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    Malinson Bloobury: We are our own to experiment with, I not realities fair nor is reality mine.
    Malinson Bloobury: What we are as sentient beings is what we choose to be.
    Arisia Vita: Beings are numberless, I vow to free them. Delusions are inexhaustible, I vow to end them. Reality is boundless, I vow to perceive it. The Awakened Way is unsurpassable, I vow to embody it. - Buddha
    Malinson Bloobury: One cannot be the embodiment of such things.
    Bruce Mowbray: It is mythical language, I think -- geared to provoke us to work on ourselves.
    Arisia Vita: perhaps The Buddha knew this, and his vow spoke of his journey, not his destination?
    Malinson Bloobury: The mind is a realm that baffles the eye, bringing shape to an illusion and form to a lie.
    Bruce Mowbray: Bodhisattvas might make good Texans, when it comes to over-statement.
    Bruce Mowbray: ahhhh --- we were just talking about form and formlessness, Mal.
    Arisia Vita: Of all lies, the smoothest and most convincing is memory, Of all images, the smoothest and most convincing is illusion, Of all truths, the smoothest and most convincing is conviction.
    Bruce Mowbray: Wow.
    Qt Core: time to go for me, bye all
    Malinson Bloobury: good bye
    Bruce Mowbray: Bye, Qt.
    Bruce Mowbray: Alas, I must also go.
    Bruce Mowbray: I have to pack to go to New York tomorrow.
    Malinson Bloobury: okay
    Arisia Vita: I guess the bell has rung
    Bruce Mowbray: Good to meet you, Mal.
    Malinson Bloobury: you too
    Bruce Mowbray: And do please come back.
    Arisia Vita: be well and happy
    Arisia Vita: till we meet again
    Malinson Bloobury: indeed
    Bruce Mowbray: Bye for now.
    Arisia Vita: it was an honor
    Arisia Vita: hope to see you again soon

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