2011.05.27 19:00 - Perceptions of Time and Contentment

     

    The Guardian for this meeting was Sylectra Darwin. The comments are by Sylectra Darwin.

     

    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Roger
    stevenaia Michinaga: have you been here before?
    stevenaia Michinaga: (you look familiar)
    Roger Ormenthal: Hi Stevenania. How are you today?
    stevenaia Michinaga: I am good thanks
    Roger Ormenthal: Great.
    stevenaia Michinaga: Fridays are always good
    stevenaia Michinaga: have you been here before?
    Roger Ormenthal: Yes.
    stevenaia Michinaga: okies
    Roger Ormenthal: Seems we are the only ones this time.
    stevenaia Michinaga: no, it's early
    Roger Ormenthal: OK
    stevenaia Michinaga: and the host has not yet arrived
    Roger Ormenthal: Is there always a host?
    --BELL--
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, only in the sense that they welcome newcomers and let them know about the recordings and the wiki... and post the nights log to the wiki at the end of the session
    Roger Ormenthal: Thanks. Still early at 7PM for additional participants?
    stevenaia Michinaga: good question, sometimes even one person can have a conversation
    Roger Ormenthal: :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: ir at least a dialogue
    stevenaia Michinaga: (monologue)
    Roger Ormenthal: Do we being, or wait? - as it is past 7?
    stevenaia Michinaga: it begins when.. ever
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: do you have thoughts?
    Roger Ormenthal: Many!
    stevenaia Michinaga: topics
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    Roger Ormenthal: Infinite topics. You choose.
    stevenaia Michinaga: it's an open minded group, the theme being exploring the nature of reality
    Roger Ormenthal: Infinite topics within that theme.
    stevenaia Michinaga: smiles, we know, been here for years with that very thought
    Sylectra Darwin: hi!
    Roger Ormenthal: Hi Sylectra.
    stevenaia Michinaga: hi sylectra
    stevenaia Michinaga: gtsy
    Sylectra Darwin: how you guys doin?
    stevenaia Michinaga: hmmm, you had off today and you are late?
    Roger Ormenthal: I am good.
    Sylectra Darwin: I was at the restaurant with a big group of family :)
    Sylectra Darwin: we just got home.
    stevenaia Michinaga: nice, welcome
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    Roger Ormenthal: What mysteries of the universe shall we explore tonight?
    Sylectra Darwin: hmmmm
    Sylectra Darwin: ice cream?
    stevenaia Michinaga: perfect, brb
    Sylectra Darwin: k
    Roger Ormenthal: Ice Cream is, after all, the foundation of space, time, and all things.
    Sylectra Darwin: Definitely!
    Sylectra Darwin: And now that it's gotten hot and we don't have the AC on, it's a blessing.
    Roger Ormenthal: My primary addiction.
    Hokon Cazalet: hiya =)
    stevenaia Michinaga: hi Hokon
    Hokon Cazalet: Weeee! ^.^
    Roger Ormenthal: Hi Hokon.
    Hokon Cazalet: =)
    stevenaia Michinaga: Hi Paradise
    Sylectra Darwin: hi!
    Paradise Tennant: smiles hello stev ..hokon .. sylectra. .. roger :) good to see everyone ;)
    Hokon Cazalet: Yaaaaayyyyyyyy!
    stevenaia Michinaga: a short visit for Hokon
    Paradise Tennant: wb hokon :)
    Hokon Cazalet: Weeee! ^.^
    stevenaia Michinaga: welcome back
    stevenaia Michinaga: so roger, what do you have in mind?
    Roger Ormenthal: Re the bliss of ice cream - taste detects the shape of molecules, so taste is a form of touch.
    Roger Ormenthal: What I have in mind? I'm really open to anything. Does anyone have any burning questions about our existence?
    Hokon Cazalet: i do, but i wanna ignore mine for a bit =P
    Paradise Tennant: smiles and listens :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: the eyes touch light
    --BELL--
    stevenaia Michinaga: the brain touched conciousness
    stevenaia Michinaga: what touches time?
    Roger Ormenthal: Ironically, the perception of time may be an illusion resulting from not being in the eternal moment.
    Paradise Tennant: the eternal moment ?
    stevenaia Michinaga: so the eternal moment is not an illusion
    stevenaia Michinaga: "Now"
    stevenaia Michinaga: everything else is a memory?
    Roger Ormenthal: I think time is an illusion, and that there is an eternal moment.
    stevenaia Michinaga: how do you explain this illusion greating an infinite number of eternal moments
    Paradise Tennant: so the forms change but the moment is the same
    Hokon Cazalet: well it wouldnt be infinite, the human mind seems to live in miliseconds, so there is a non-infinitesimal size to a slice of experience
    Roger Ormenthal: When we say "time" we are really comparing how many events pass in one "frame" like vibrations of a watch crystal, with how many events occur somewhere else for a given number of ticks. So we are comparing vibrations in teo different places. Buth then we count the ticks and make a watch face and get away from the underlying reality of comparing vibration events.
    stevenaia Michinaga: *creating .... (inserted for greating)
    Paradise Tennant: smiles and tries to be still .. to notice the non stillness :)
    Roger Ormenthal: Also, a clock (atomic clock, watch, anything) is slower in a higher gravitational field, so the time concept is very flexible in this universe.
    Sylectra Darwin: Roger, that strikes me as very interesting.
    stevenaia Michinaga: does the text log track illusions outside the eternal moment?
    Paradise Tennant: and given relative size once the bits get very very small time is extremely flexible can go back and forward :)
    Hokon Cazalet: did you know at the singularity of a black hole (the theoretical center) time literally ends (the end of history)?
    Paradise Tennant: brb ... this eternal moment requires more cocoa :)
    Hokon Cazalet: yummy . . .
    Roger Ormenthal: A sequence of events unfolding, is not incompatible with the idea that there is no time. Maybe what we call time, is just our subjective perception of the passage of events.
    stevenaia Michinaga: (and ice cream)
    Hokon Cazalet: i like this line of thinking btw =)
    Sylectra Darwin: I like to think of time via the point of view of various things, like a rock or a tree.
    Sylectra Darwin: yum....lol
    Roger Ormenthal: Yes, black holes and time are very interesting. If you are falling into one, from your perspective, it happens quickly. But to the rest of the universe, it seems to take forever.
    stevenaia Michinaga: tree time
    Hokon Cazalet: if anyone else does, i highly recommend saint augustine's short work on time: Confessions, book 11, chapters 14-28
    Hokon Cazalet: yup roger
    Sylectra Darwin: Ooh, I read Confessions, but so long ago
    Hokon Cazalet: =)
    Hokon Cazalet: ive only read that part, but liked it a lot


    --BELL--

    stevenaia Michinaga: http://www.jesus.org.uk/vault/library/augustine_confessions.pdf
    Roger Ormenthal: Because of the gravitational effect, time passes more slowly at our feet than at our head (when we are standing) so in effect we are all living in a continual time warp.
    Hokon Cazalet: even when you move, the objective flow of time changes
    stevenaia Michinaga: sounds like my typical day
    Hokon Cazalet: although i feel, with my black hole comment, ive veered away from roger's focus, the subjective passage of time, and how we construct it
    Hokon Cazalet is crazy with tangents :Þ
    Roger Ormenthal: Modern physics does not even identify a separate phenomena of time, but rather space-time, so whatever "time" is, it is wrapped up into the nature of reality, and not a separate entity.
    Hokon Cazalet: yeah, in objective nature
    Sylectra Darwin: I always think about stuff like that when the trains blow by me as I stand on the platform, and their whistles do the doppler effect thing.
    Hokon Cazalet: (which is cool ☻)
    Hokon Cazalet: hehe yup sylectra =)
    Paradise Tennant: back joting down not to self read confessions :)
    Paradise Tennant: more like geography :) not a linear passage
    Sylectra Darwin: I was so impressed by Confessions - I didn't think it would be my thing, but I found him to be a sensitive and thoughtful writer.
    Roger Ormenthal: I did an experiment where I was working on a repititious project which was very boring, time passed very slowly, and I worked through it with dread. Then I changed the rules, and instead of pushing the tasks away psychologically, I embraced the detail of each one with full attention, and focused on that completely and singularly. The result was that the perception of the passage of time halted, the dread was gone, and the five hour task passed quickly.
    stevenaia Michinaga: watching you do this would appear the same to me
    Roger Ormenthal: True.
    Paradise Tennant: in surrender you lose time .. always find that when you are so absorbed you do not notice time :) you are in a kind of grove :) that is more real really even it you are very very focused
    Roger Ormenthal: "Time" is relative to different observers.
    Roger Ormenthal: And if you are doing something you love, with someone you love, even doing many things in a day can seem like it flashed by in no time at all. Maybe bliss is negative time, or something like that.
    stevenaia Michinaga: my bliss says with me and slows down time
    stevenaia Michinaga: like slow melting ice cream on yur tongue
    Sylectra Darwin: When I think of time flashing by because I was having fun, that doesn't seeem as fulfilling as when I am so content in my activity (or lack thereof) that time seems to stand still.
    Sylectra Darwin: Nice analogy, Steven!
    Roger Ormenthal: Somehow, it can go both ways. Ice cream bliss can make more time very welcome.
    stevenaia Michinaga: r a great meal can last forever
    Paradise Tennant: often in emergencies .. things go in slow motion .. was thrown off a motorcycle once it was so strange seemed to take minutes flying up in the air looking down at the sliding bike ..
    Roger Ormenthal: Yes Sylectra. When you are centered, and more out of activity or transcending, time can stand still, which is perhaps another way of saying that one perceives the non-reality of time, in the transcendendant.
    Sylectra Darwin: I was listening to a podcast today called Zencast...

    --BELL--

    Sylectra Darwin: She was talking about how to get out of the "trance" of our everyday wants and distractions, and get into the presence.
    stevenaia Michinaga: but time "continues", or the moment does, for the rest of us
    Roger Ormenthal: This is a difficult topic to explore/discuss with little text blurbs.
    Hokon Cazalet: yup i agree
    Hokon Cazalet: brb drink time
    stevenaia Michinaga: we are here for dificult topics, or we wouldn't have been here for 3_+ years
    Paradise Tennant: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjlpamhrId8
    Sylectra Darwin: True enough, Stevenaia
    Paradise Tennant: this is a little long but worth watching when you have time :)
    Roger Ormenthal: Thanks for link.
    Hokon Cazalet: back
    Paradise Tennant: http://www.livescience.com/2117-time-slow-emergencies.html
    Paradise Tennant: 3.5 years that doesn't seem like 3.5 years
    stevenaia Michinaga: nods, until you read thousands of logs
    Roger Ormenthal: Put those logs on a USB drive, and send them into a black hole, and it will seem even longer.
    Hokon Cazalet: hehe
    Paradise Tennant: in the end, "it's really about understanding the virtual reality machinery that we're trapped in," Eagleman told LiveScience. "Our brain constructs this reality for us that, if we look closely, we can find all these strange illusions in
    Paradise Tennant: just a timely quote from the linked article above as we sit in our virtual reality machinery in another virutal reality machinery :)
    Roger Ormenthal: recursive
    Roger Ormenthal: Recursive Reality
    Roger Ormenthal: If mind and body are separate, ie we have other-dimensional aspects to our human structure, then the brain reality may not be a bad representation of the actual reality.
    Paradise Tennant: smiles hello observerm nice to see you would you like to sit with us :)
    observerm Resident waves and nods
    Hokon Cazalet: hiya =)
    Paradise Tennant: we've been talking of time :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: seems that conciousness rides on time at various rates
    Sylectra Darwin: http://amberstar.libsyn.com/zencast_243_choosing_presence
    Sylectra Darwin: listen sometime when you have 40 minutes
    Roger Ormenthal: Yes. And we have the idiom "make time". Maybe we really do create/manipulate it on a personal individual basis in consciousness.
    Paradise Tennant: thank you sylectra I will .. love loading good talks on my ipod and listening when I am out walking the dog :)
    Hokon Cazalet: hehe
    Hokon Cazalet feels like she is the only one without an ipod . . .
    Paradise Tennant: a worthwhile investment :) hours and hours :) mobile pleasure
    Sylectra Darwin: Hokon, you can listen to Zencast on the website.
    Hokon Cazalet: Yaaaaayyyyyyyy!
    --BELL--
    Roger Ormenthal: Anyone read Hawking's "A Brief History of Time"?
    Hokon Cazalet: me =)
    Hokon Cazalet: well, parts of it
    Paradise Tennant: yes
    Paradise Tennant: heard him speak too he is very funny :)
    Paradise Tennant: but he was proven wrong :) or partly wrong
    Roger Ormenthal: His texting is slower than ours, but his mind is faster.
    Roger Ormenthal: Must be frustrating.
    Roger Ormenthal: I think our personal insights and perceptions are every bit as valid as the great recognized thinkers. We all have the universe within us to explore.
    Paradise Tennant: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Hawking
    Paradise Tennant: yes we are part of them and they are part of us .. sort of a one thing thing :)
    Roger Ormenthal: I think we have stopped time.
    Paradise Tennant: liked something you said earlier roger :)
    Paradise Tennant: [07:54 PM] Roger Ormenthal: If mind and body are separate, ie we have other-dimensional aspects to our human structure, then the brain reality may not be a bad representation of the actual reality.
    Paradise Tennant: could you say more :)
    Roger Ormenthal: If one is to believe the phenomena, then people having out-of-body experiences see the world much as we do when "inside the body". If the out-of-body perception is accurate, and not dependent on the brain, then the reality we experience through the brain may have good fidelity with "reality".
    Sylectra Darwin: very deep stuff

    --BELL--

    Roger Ormenthal: Of course though, we still have limited perceptions, such as only perceiving a small sliver of all of the frequencies of light, etc.
    Paradise Tennant: has anyone had an out of body experience here ?
    stevenaia Michinaga: a dream
    Roger Ormenthal: I've had limited experience. Stevenaia, are you saying that you feel that out-of-body experiences are dreams with no physical reality?
    Sylectra Darwin: I have not.
    stevenaia Michinaga: I feel some of my dreams are not linked to my perception of reality, serhaps someone else in another universe =occupies my mind when I sleep (should charge rent)
    Paradise Tennant: hmm smiles dreams are like a gateway to a bigger reality sometimes
    Sylectra Darwin: all, my battery is nearly dead so I will have to sign out. Thank you for the conversation I got to be part of
    Paradise Tennant: smiles thank you sylectra :)
    Roger Ormenthal: Bye Sylectra.
    stevenaia Michinaga: bigger reality within you, hard to intereact with others in your reality in a dream
    Sylectra Darwin: bye for now!
    stevenaia Michinaga: night sylectra
    Paradise Tennant: hmm a reality that has broader borders :)
    Roger Ormenthal: If some "dreams" are perceptions of out-of-body experiences, then one could be perceiving real-world events involving others who are also "out-of-body".
    stevenaia Michinaga: I guess that rules that out than
    Roger Ormenthal: All of these things may be happening in a mix.
    Paradise Tennant: dreamt once I was dead ... lying on guerney in a hospital emercency centre .. killed in a sudden impact collision .. but the feeling of being out of my body was wonderful . big .. full of a kind of shiny openess .. when I awoke first thought was that it was some kind of gift .. a dream like that ;)
    Hokon Cazalet: =)
    Roger Ormenthal: Unified field theory of modern physics requires at least eleven dimensions. Perhaps the "higher dimensions" spoken of spiritually, are associated with those mathematically derived dimensions.
    Paradise Tennant: do not think of dyiing the same way anymore
    Paradise Tennant: so a river of time with whirpools ,, maybe forks , different timelines and 11 dimensions for which it to form as geography
    Roger Ormenthal: Paradise, you may have actually had that experience in a past life, and was remembering/reliving it. Now I know that some will be offended by a past-life concept, so apologies for that.
    stevenaia Michinaga: not here :)
    Hokon Cazalet not sure why it'd be offensive, but hokon isn't offended =)
    Paradise Tennant: no I am a buddhist so past lives are a concept I have grappled myself into accepting
    Roger Ormenthal: Paradise, I think that is a wonderful experience. I've heard of many similar ones, where the fear of death is permanently eliminated.
    Paradise Tennant: yes think the painful part is the sense of lost those left behind go through :)
    Paradise Tennant: for the one dying a pretty ok experience :)
    Roger Ormenthal: Yes. The pain of "death" is the ignorance of those left behind. If they could see their loved one continuing, they would perhaps grieve the separation, but not the loss of that person's very existence.
    --BELL--
    Roger Ormenthal: And if they fully embraced the idea that the person leaving was continuing a grand adventure, then there might be no grief at all. However, I must say I lost a girlfriend to cancer, and believed all this, and yet an ignorant part of myself was still deeply grieving. I actually felt hypocritical. The human is still not fully risen to the spiritual, and perhaps that is a big part of our job here.
    Hokon Cazalet: ignorant . . .
    Paradise Tennant: hmmm so from time to the meaning of life or the work of life :)
    Roger Ormenthal: :)
    Paradise Tennant: are we ready for a short musical interlude :) to reflect on that :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: and not off to dreamtime, night all
    Paradise Tennant: smile nite nite stev :)
    Paradise Tennant: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7VpUHIvs7o
    Roger Ormenthal: Bye Stevenaia.
    stevenaia Michinaga: nice evening conversatin
    Paradise Tennant: would like to understand what the job here is :)
    Roger Ormenthal: IMHO, it is to know and embrace as much as we can, on the way to a conscious unity with everything.
    Paradise Tennant: which we already are in only kind of an unconscious unity with everything
    Ewan Bonham: Hi Folks!

    --BELL--

    Paradise Tennant: hiya ewan
    Ewan Bonham: Smile..
    Paradise Tennant: we are talking of time .. and the job of life which roger put beautifully :)
    Roger Ormenthal: Absolutely. Everything is made of the same space-time stuff, whch some would say has a quality of primordial consciousness. Planets, stars, plants, animals, chairs, people, are all complex hierarchical vibrations of the same "stuff", all waves of the same ocean. The unity is already there, and becoming increasingly conscious of that is the "game".
    Paradise Tennant: [08:39 PM] Paradise Tennant: would like to understand what the job here is :) [08:40 PM] Roger Ormenthal: IMHO, it is to know and embrace as much as we can, on the way to a conscious unity with everything.
    Paradise Tennant: so the buddhist practice of reverance for all things is .. very intune
    Ewan Bonham: Seems so...:)
    Roger Ormenthal: IMHO, yes. Everything is very precious, even divine. And all this, without the need for any religious dogma, though that structure is there for those who find it helpful.
    Paradise Tennant: sometimes certain traditions will give you a shortcut :) speed up your eta :)
    Paradise Tennant: but everything is headed there at some poit
    Ewan Bonham: /
    Paradise Tennant: point
    Roger Ormenthal: Many paths.
    Ewan Bonham: And the
    Ewan Bonham: unity aspect- how does that figure in?
    Paradise Tennant: smiles yes an odd turn of phrase
    Roger Ormenthal: We all have a yearning for connection, to break the feeling/illusion of separateness. And it is an illusion. As we gain knowledge and advanced perception, I feel, we expand that sense of connection/unity, perceive that underlying reality, and increase our sense of connection with everything. It is, in a way, like falling in love with everything, since love is an experience of unity with the object of that love.
    Ewan Bonham: Yes, that makes sense to me...as a progressiveprocess of awareness..
    Roger Ormenthal: The reality of unity being, that everything is a complex set of vibrations of the same unified primordial space-time stuff, the fabric of the universe.
    Paradise Tennant: yes
    Roger Ormenthal: So we are just awakening to our true nature, which is very grand, in a humble way.
    Paradise Tennant: smiles in a humble no ego no self kind of way
    Ewan Bonham: That line ofthought does have a profound effect on me..
    Ewan Bonham: Really don't know why..
    Paradise Tennant: wb hokon :)
    Ewan Bonham: But I do know it rings true.
    Hokon Cazalet: Weeee! ^.^
    Ewan Bonham: Hi Hokon...)
    Hokon Cazalet: had to ditch a bit, but ready for more
    Hokon Cazalet: Yaaaaayyyyyyyy!

    --BELL--

    Roger Ormenthal: In truth, the more one gains in wisdom, the more humility one has, since one is increasingly aware of the infinity of it all.
    Paradise Tennant: funny how true has its own vibration
    Paradise Tennant: we tune to it
    Roger Ormenthal: Yes, we can know truth directly. It feels harmonious. But we can also delude ourselves. Look at the faiths where killing others is thought to be the way to heaven. Discrimination is critical to develop. Re: egoless, or humble, I always worry about spiritual teachers who exhibit a lot of ego. This is not to be confused with healthy self-confidence.
    Paradise Tennant: insidious starts with an I :) very difficult to let go of :)
    Hokon Cazalet: =(
    Ewan Bonham: Yes, and a 'Mine'...:)
    Roger Ormenthal: Hate is as binding as love, both unify but in different ways. Indifference is in the middle. The global trick is to shift toward constructive forms of unity.
    Paradise Tennant: hmm think it is more of a kind of surrender to what is :) convinced all we have to do is let go .. kind of like falling backwards :) have to have faith :) there is something/one there to catch you
    Roger Ormenthal: I agree. Surrender is a big part of it.
    Paradise Tennant: one of my first joys in sl was the falling flying up to the top of the grid and doing that odd failing kind of fall to splat and then the little brush off :) was such perfect fun did not tire of it for a very long time


    --BELL--

    Ewan Bonham: Perhaps it is a surrender to what we know to be the truth from the ego thoughts that we have become attached to..
    Paradise Tennant: yes
    Ewan Bonham: This is not a usual meeting time...but I am so glad I felt an inspiration to come here tonight..:)
    Paradise Tennant: smiles .. glad you were motivated to join us
    Paradise Tennant: smiles 12.20 am here so past my bedtime getting heavy eyes .. think I will say thank you for the company and the conversation :) and good nite :)
    Ewan Bonham: Yes, good night to you all...and thank you...:)
    Paradise Tennant: nite nite :))
    Roger Ormenthal: Thanks for that wonderful photo. You both look wonderful! Good night.

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