2011.05.28 13:00 – Golf, NVC, Good Cops and Bad


    The Guardian for this meeting was Aphrodite Macbain. The comments are by Aphrodite Macbain.

    Aphrodite Macbain: Hiya Eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Aph :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hm... things going on around here... fish, twitter box...
    Aphrodite Macbain: How's your Saturday going?
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, just fine thanks. Bit of a cold but otherwise OK. You?

    Golf and other pleasures

    Aphrodite Macbain: Not bad. I played golf this morning for the first time. Nice but frustrating
    Aphrodite Macbain: I can see how it can become addictive
    Eliza Madrigal: yes. Did you take too it well?
    Eliza Madrigal: feel you could control the ball?
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hmm, it was very pleasant b/c it was beautifully sunny and we were surrounded by tall trees, rhododendron bushes and birds. A nice way to spend a morning hitting a silly little ball
    Eliza Madrigal: :) sounds wonderful
    Aphrodite Macbain: Do you play?
    Eliza Madrigal: I've tried, and see how others might like it, but no
    Eliza Madrigal: for me it is too much fully in the sun
    Eliza Madrigal: and I'm not allowed to do that much
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: In Vancouver, that's a rare situation. It's usually grey and wet.
    Aphrodite Macbain: Why aren't you allowed?
    Eliza Madrigal: Well I might play in Vancouver then!
    Aphrodite Macbain: Great, Feel free to stay with me.

    Eliza Madrigal: Actually, if I moved, I might try to play tennis as I did when a teen
    Eliza Madrigal: :)) Thank you

    Qt Core: Hi all
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Qt :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: Salve Qt
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hw are you today Qt?
    Qt Core: quite good, ty you two?
    Aphrodite Macbain: fine- we were talking about golfing
    Eliza Madrigal: doing pretty well thanks
    Aphrodite Macbain: Eliza- why do you have to be careful about over exertion?
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, I was diagnosed with lupus once upon a time, and though my bloodwork is clear now (am much better), I am still careful. If I am too much in the sun, then a day or two later I end up sleeping all day, with achy legs
    Aphrodite Macbain: Oh, I'm so sorry. Is it a virus?
    Eliza Madrigal: classified as an 'auto-immune' disease
    Eliza Madrigal: and was no fun :) Am very thankful to have recovered almost entirely :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: What did/do you have to do to cure it?
    Eliza Madrigal: I took an anti-malarial for a while and learned to eat better, vitamins, etc... but that it doesn’t show up now is really remarkable actually
    Macbain: Anti-malarial - so it affects the pancreas?
    Eliza Madrigal: basically, it is a neurotic disease... the body turns against itself
    Eliza Madrigal: hyperactive :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Love these fish :))

    Aphrodite Macbain: Yes, I was feeling a need for fish today and brought them along Aphrodite


    Eliza Madrigal: I was really curious to hear more about the non violent communication techniques you mentioned the other day, Aph. Did you go?
    Aphrodite Macbain: Yes I did Eliza. It was a really interesting couple of hours
    Aphrodite Macbain: There were 7 of us meeting in someone’s place
    Aphrodite Macbain: and we went thru a series of exercises to practice with each other
    Aphrodite Macbain: We were given particular scenarios to work through
    Aphrodite Macbain: and we practiced using non-violent, no- blaming, no-coercive language to change the situation
    Eliza Madrigal: Interesting!
    Aphrodite Macbain: Then we practiced using a problem that was real for us
    Aphrodite Macbain: People had conversations with their mothers, their bosses or their children for instance
    Aphrodite Macbain: It's not easy
    Eliza Madrigal: wow, that sounds like one must be very vulnerable
    Eliza Madrigal: did you know the others present?
    Aphrodite Macbain: No I didn't know anyone except one person. Everyone was lovely
    Aphrodite Macbain: Very helpful and supportive

    Aphrodite Macbain: The idea is to first observe the situation and describe it; then, without pointing fingers, say how that situation makes you FEEL, (frustrated, vulnerable, frightened, pleased)
    Aphrodite Macbain: and then make recommendations for change
    Eliza Madrigal: :) How nice
    Eliza Madrigal: I would imagine that the 'give recommendation' part would be the hardest?
    Eliza Madrigal: because both involved would have to be receptive?
    Aphrodite Macbain: Yes. But it is a process of checking in and suggesting rather than demanding-a dialogue.
    Aphrodite Macbain: I'd check out the website if you're interested. There are a number of You Tube videos of Marshall Rosenberg talking about it
    Eliza Madrigal: yes I guess I was mostly interested in how you felt about it :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: I also have a CD I borrowed from the library
    Aphrodite Macbain: Yes, it's really worth working on I think, especially as I am in a situation where good communication can sometimes be a challenge
    Aphrodite Macbain: Eliza- you are a natural anyway
    Aphrodite Macbain: You are always supportive and positive
    Eliza Madrigal: That's kind of you to say but believe me I can always learn
    Eliza Madrigal: And, we all have special people in our lives which seem to be an exception to usual flow, etc :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: :-) yes, we all do, It's amazing how many habits of speech we have that are not very.. um.. useful
    Aphrodite Macbain: Qt, do you have to work with difficult people in your life?
    Qt Core: beside myself, you mean? ;-)
    Eliza Madrigal: he he he
    Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: you said it
    Eliza Madrigal: we can be toughest on ourselves
    Aphrodite Macbain: Non Violent Communication also looks at the way we talk to ourselves - we often blame ourselves or put ourselves down
    Qt Core: most of my problems come from me not being very emotional nor being much empathic
    Aphrodite Macbain: What happens when you don't respond when the person expects you to?
    Aphrodite Macbain: Do you argue or ignore them?
    Qt Core: not so jokingly in my family we say that I have all the rationalism and my disabled sister has all the emotivity
    Aphrodite Macbain: Do you and your sister get along?
    Eliza Madrigal: interesting, people in families do seem to carry certain roles
    Eliza Madrigal: for the whole
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes - and often get stuck in those roles
    Eliza Madrigal: 'the one who is reasonable'
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Aphrodite Macbain: I'm the "absent minded" one
    Eliza Madrigal: :) hard to imagine that!
    Aphrodite Macbain: I try and make up for it

    Eliza Madrigal: :)


    Good cop, bad cop

    Qt Core: mostly yes, but not always, i often have to play the "bad cop" with her
    Eliza Madrigal: that sounds difficult at times Qt
    Aphrodite Macbain: how do you play the bad cop? and who is the good cop?
    Qt Core: our mother
    Aphrodite Macbain: interesting! What does she think of you playing bad cop?
    Aphrodite Macbain: Do you argue with your mom?
    Qt Core: don't know; if she would ever really get that we are playing those roles it may stop working, aphro
    Aphrodite Macbain smiles
    Eliza Madrigal: :)))
    Aphrodite Macbain: I find it interesting to find out what triggers certain responses
    Eliza Madrigal: me too
    Aphrodite Macbain: some people are very sensitive to something and others are not- it's hard to predict
    Aphrodite Macbain: as a feminist, for instance, I am very sensitive to remarks about women
    Eliza Madrigal: hmm, nods
    Eliza Madrigal: we have triggers/buttons, some visible and some not
    Qt Core: i mistreat men and women equally ;-)
    Eliza Madrigal laughs
    Aphrodite Macbain giggles  Anyway, I find, as you have already observed Eliza, that P@B and Buddhism are very much aligned with the methods of NVC

    Greeting anew

    Eliza Madrigal: My relationship with some family has transformed in the last few years, due to 'greeting anew'
    Aphrodite Macbain: can you say more about that Eliza?
    Eliza Madrigal: which I guess is just good ol fashioned forgiveness, but for some reason the idea came alive in a way that seemed fun, here
    Aphrodite Macbain: looking at old things in new ways?
    Eliza Madrigal: Basically, it is that question "this conversation doesn't have to go the same way"
    Eliza Madrigal: yes
    Eliza Madrigal: playfully, like "Let's see what happens if I say what I actually feel here"
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes - it allows for creative thinking
    Aphrodite Macbain: and risk taking

    Eliza Madrigal: (instead of what I usually did, cover/hide/avoid)
    Eliza Madrigal: yes
    Eliza Madrigal: many
    Eliza Madrigal: Another good tool: "What if this person wasn't *my* ____, but a friend I met who told me their story?"
    Aphrodite Macbain: I think that this feels like a safe space which allows for that kind of discussion
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, me too
    Eliza Madrigal: though, these things come up in our groups too... like in the Ways of Knowing group there is a discussion of how to deal with people who make everything into a debate, or who find ridicule normal
    Aphrodite Macbain: Yes, who is speaking affects our judgment of what they say
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Aphrodite Macbain: We are trained to try and win -- not necessarily to get at the truth but to win an argument
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, exactly
    Aphrodite Macbain: sort of like the text that Bleu sent out
    Aphrodite Macbain: Qt- who usually wins the argument in your family- the good cop or the bad cop? Does rationalism usually win out over passion?
    Eliza Madrigal: Oooh good question :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: Seems that in our world it is usually rationalism that wins
    Qt Core: always the good one but at the end we get my sister where we both want her
    Aphrodite Macbain: poor sister does she have any say in this?
    Qt Core: we don't always "trick" her, only when there is something to be done and quick, in less time that we would need to make her agree
    Aphrodite Macbain: trick her?
    Qt Core: the good/bad cop game
    Aphrodite Macbain: ah
    Aphrodite Macbain: I'm beginning to feel a little sorry for your sister
    Eliza Madrigal: I can remember times of tricking my kids out of tantrum or something
    Eliza Madrigal: usually distraction
    Aphrodite Macbain: How would you do that Eliza?
    Aphrodite Macbain: getting them to focus on something else?
    Eliza Madrigal: even now, if one is grumpy and you can say something ridiculous they have to smile, yes
    Eliza Madrigal: which doesn't mean I'm taking away their grumpiness
    Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
    Aphrodite Macbain: The way NVC would work there would be to first describe the situation: “I see that you are feeling grumpy"
    Aphrodite Macbain: Then you would say how that made you FEEL " This makes me feel frustrated, or alienated "
    Aphrodite Macbain: Then make a suggestion: "Let's do something that will make you feel happy or how about if I leave you alone for a bit?"

    Bleu Oleander: hi E, A and Q :)
    Qt Core: hi B
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hiya Bleu, GTSY
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Hi Bleu

    Eliza Madrigal: yes, it seems like a good idea but requires slowing down enough to collaborate, which a grumpy person sometimes will resist
    Aphrodite Macbain: Yes, being in the moment is all important. Slowing down
    Eliza Madrigal: there seem very few situations now which one *really* needs to 'tie up with a bow' or have 'closure' on. . . if one really notices
    Aphrodite Macbain: Yes- these things are usually messy Eliza

    Art as Being project - wait for it!

    Aphrodite Macbain: I am so curious about your new art as being project Bleu.

    Bleu Oleander: ah, have to wait a little longer :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: :-(
    Eliza Madrigal: just so Bleu can enjoy torturing everyone, hehe
    Bleu Oleander: hahaha
    Bleu Oleander: (it is fun)
    Eliza Madrigal laughs
    Aphrodite Macbain: Will the lid be lifted tomorrow Bleu?
    Bleu Oleander: not likely
    Aphrodite Macbain: Oh, boo
    Bleu Oleander: but soon
    Bleu Oleander: are you holding the date?
    Aphrodite Macbain: Sound like you are still preparing something before you can announce it
    Bleu Oleander: putting final details together
    Aphrodite Macbain: Yes, can you remind me of the date and time? (See- I'm absent minded)
    Bleu Oleander: Sunday June 12 at noon SLT
    Aphrodite Macbain: kk for 1 hr?
    Bleu Oleander: yes
    Eliza Madrigal has marked her calendar hugely
    Bleu Oleander is happy :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :))
    Aphrodite Macbain: Me too -- but impatient
    Bleu Oleander: :))

    Bleu hands a note card to Aphro regarding an event in SL today

    Aphrodite Macbain: Thanks Bleu - looks interesting. Has it already opened?
    Bleu Oleander: opens today at 3
    Eliza Madrigal: Thanks, Bleu
    Aphrodite Macbain: Oh OK. Cool.
    Bleu Oleander: yw!
    Bleu Oleander: some fun art there
    Eliza Madrigal: will have to check it out, tonight or tomorrow
    Aphrodite Macbain: (Reads the poster that says "sonic environment by March Macbain") Another Macbain- I have many cousins in SL
    Eliza Madrigal: so much going on in SL!
    Eliza Madrigal: :)) Aph, you are my only Macbain
    Aphrodite Macbain: awww Eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: Is your art work in the show Bleu?
    Bleu Oleander: no :

    (Eliza Madrigal: I'd better get going, I wanted to ask about the non-coercive dialogue... would be a neat theme session maybe.... after upcoming hooplas
    Aphrodite Macbain: Yes, I think it might be an interesting subject for a retreat too
    Bleu Oleander: did I miss that?
    Eliza Madrigal: interesting!
    Eliza Madrigal: It ties in well with the article you sent, Bleu
    Bleu Oleander: non-coercive dialogue?
    Bleu Oleander: ah ok
    Aphrodite Macbain: Yes, I was talking about Non Violent Communication Bleu
    Bleu Oleander: as in not slapping the person you are talking with?
    Bleu Oleander: hehe
    Aphrodite Macbain: Yes- about not trying to be "right" or winning but about connecting on more of a "heart" level
    Eliza Madrigal: hehe
    Bleu Oleander: yes, sorry, being silly
    Aphrodite Macbain: It's a more generous, loving way of communicating
    Bleu Oleander: nice
    Eliza Madrigal: but I think it is still okay to stick one's tongue out occasionally
    Aphrodite Macbain: not slapping really does help! :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: =P~
    Aphrodite Macbain: or punching
    Eliza Madrigal: tripping?
    Aphrodite Macbain: lol Eliza
    Bleu Oleander: haha
    Aphrodite Macbain: humour definitely helps
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Bleu Oleander: :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: as long as it's done from the heart!
    Eliza Madrigal: the thing is, everyone thinks they are funny. That is one thing I have difficulty with, mean humor
    Eliza Madrigal: yes
    Eliza Madrigal: I react badly to mean humor at times
    Aphrodite Macbain: you mean sometimes they're not funny and it misses the mark?
    Aphrodite Macbain: sarcasm is considered violent in NVC
    Eliza Madrigal: hm, yes, or sometimes it is an insult in disguise
    Eliza Madrigal: yes
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes
    Bleu Oleander: often misses the mark ... especially in text
    Eliza Madrigal: that's really tricky, yes
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes, one can’t really inject the tone of voice or the gestures into text
    Bleu Oleander: visual cues are very important
    Bleu Oleander: so need to be extra careful in text
    Eliza Madrigal: I've got 'obliviousness' down to an art. I really choose to let things go over my head sometimes
    Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
    Aphrodite Macbain: so that means you are not easily triggered
    Aphrodite Macbain: wish I could be like that
    Eliza Madrigal: not here, but other places at times
    Eliza Madrigal: sometimes it is benefit of the doubt, especially if I know the people in other contexts
    Eliza Madrigal: not sure, we're all learning I guess
    Bleu Oleander: would be a nice theme session I think
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes, it helps if you know the person, their style of address, and where they are coming from
    Bleu Oleander: take care ... nice to see you all :)
    Qt Core: bye
    Bleu Oleander: bye bye
    Aphrodite Macbain: Think I should go too. I have to dress for your opening Bleu
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Bleu :) Bye Aph and Qt, nice talking to you all
    Eliza Madrigal: thank you
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bye
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bye! bye Bleu
    Bleu Oleander waves
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bye
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bye! Qt and Eliza, great talking with you all
    Qt Core: bye Aphro



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