2011.06.03 07:00 - Flip Books of Reality

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    The guardian for this long and often fascinating session, was Eliza, filling in for Lucinda Lavender during her happy travels. This was basically three sessions, and I'll try to divide it that way. During the first session SophiaSharon, Xirana, and Eliza discussed Sharon's idea of a "flip book reality". In session two, we were joined by Mila and then Korel/Freud, and discussed early avatar appearance. In session three, Sharon and Xirana bid adeiu and Mila and I chatted a bit (sometimes seriously) for a while with Freud & Rhiannon, about behaviors and banning in SL.   

    SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Xirana
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Xirana :)
    Eliza Madrigal: beautiful fabrics on your outfit, Sharon
    SophiaSharon Larnia: thanks :)
    Eliza Madrigal: amazing how one can feel things visually
    SophiaSharon Larnia: it is isnt it
    Xirana Oximoxi: hi Eliza and Sharon:)
    Eliza Madrigal: Nice to see you Xirana :)
    Xirana Oximoxi: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: We were a small group for time session, so I wondered if I might be here by my lonesome today
    SophiaSharon Larnia: aww :) small groups are good sometimes
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, it was a lovey session, but I'm also happy to share company so good to see you two!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: you too Eliza :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)Ty
    Xirana Oximoxi: i would have liked to come before, but here every afternoon I have stormy weather and it's dangerous for my computer
    SophiaSharon Larnia: ooh
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, that's how Florida is for most of July, 3pm thunder storms
    Eliza Madrigal: love it, but yes not conducive to internet freedom
    Xirana Oximoxi: here, during springtime usually
    Eliza Madrigal: we are now in dangerous drought
    SophiaSharon Larnia: july/august in PA :)
    Eliza Madrigal: yet all the trees are blooming vibrantly. It is an odd mix
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i found California that way, all the irrigation that is done
    SophiaSharon Larnia: southern Cal i mean
    Eliza Madrigal: ah, true
    Eliza Madrigal: Topics today?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i still cant think of my sisters old house without the hiss sound from the sprinklers in the background
    Xirana Oximoxi: did you have a big dicussion today??
    Eliza Madrigal: ooooh, love sprinklers :))
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hehe
    SophiaSharon Larnia: topics hmm
    Eliza Madrigal: We had a very layered and interesting discussion actually
    Xirana Oximoxi: :) I'll read it later:)
    Eliza Madrigal: about time and identity, in a way. The exploration was to have a fomer self look to future self, future self look to former self, to now, etc

    SophiaSharon Larnia: had a weird thought about layers over the last few weeks
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, Highly recommend reading the exploration too
    Eliza Madrigal: yes?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes I read that chapter, and as always had to think on it for a while :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: well, to explain that id have to explain my flip book picture of reality.
    Eliza Madrigal: a bit daunting but interesting
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh goodie
    Eliza Madrigal settles in to listen :)
    Xirana Oximoxi: I have to think on it too, not only the ideas also some words or expressions that may be difficult to understand for me
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i kept thinking of those pictures you'd draw as a kid, a simple picture with one thing changed on each page, and when you flipped the cornor, the picture appears to move


    SophiaSharon Larnia: I know what you mean Xirana, me too haha :)
    Eliza Madrigal: ah, nods @ Xirana
    Xirana Oximoxi: :)... so imagine if English is not the first language:)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: !! yes
    Eliza Madrigal: :))
    Eliza Madrigal: Sharon, please continue? very interesting line of consideration...
    Xirana Oximoxi: yes, sorry nfor interruptions
    SophiaSharon Larnia: in the flip book, each page is a 'moment', and movement and change only appears from each picture of a moment
    SophiaSharon Larnia: np! really, distract me please! :D
    Xirana Oximoxi: noooo :))
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i know it's ridiculously tres simple'
    SophiaSharon Larnia: and laugh at myself
    Eliza Madrigal: Not at all...
    SophiaSharon Larnia: but thoughts turn to it again and again
    Eliza Madrigal: simple but that's where such richness is.. simplicity of a blank page
    Eliza Madrigal: am pondering... but not sure I see how you are seeing completely
    SophiaSharon Larnia: ive been seeing each page as a layer, and wonder how int he world i could ever think i could go down through them all
    Eliza Madrigal: (that would be some feat in itself, heh)
    Eliza Madrigal: hmmm
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes, i guess its odd, hard to share
    Eliza Madrigal: does it seem something you need to do?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: why i havent said too much about it
    SophiaSharon Larnia: not really, sometimes more than others
    Eliza Madrigal: I love it. It makes me think of this wheel at the science fair here....
    SophiaSharon Larnia: oh?
    Eliza Madrigal: It is a large wheel, hm... how to describe.... blank on the inside
    Eliza Madrigal: It is on a table
    Eliza Madrigal: with the openness up so one can see the inner blank circle
    Eliza Madrigal: and there are horses drawn
    Eliza Madrigal: each in a different 'pose'
    Eliza Madrigal: when you spin it, the horses are running
    Eliza Madrigal: and the speed at which you spin it, determines the way the horses run or if you can even see them
    Eliza Madrigal: it is a variation on a flip book I guess
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes something like that :)
    Eliza Madrigal: but shows how one might add the perception
    Xirana Oximoxi: nice image...
    Xirana Oximoxi: where is this wheel..in sl?
    Eliza Madrigal: It is actually, I said science fair before, but it is at the science museum here
    Eliza Madrigal: many years, but I haven't really 'pondered' it before, considering moments

    SophiaSharon Larnia: the question that arises for me is the movement an illusion, or is this such a simple visualization that it shouldn't be compared to anything
    Xirana Oximoxi: aha...ty:)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: (comparing it to "moments")
    Eliza Madrigal: funny how the biggest insights often feel like 'oh, sure, no biggie'
    SophiaSharon Larnia: for me that meant that change is an illusion, and that goes against anything i thought
    SophiaSharon Larnia: ??
    SophiaSharon Larnia: laughs
    Eliza Madrigal: hmmm :)))
    Eliza Madrigal: can both be true?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: sure, thats all i came up with :D
    Eliza Madrigal giggles
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :D
    Eliza Madrigal: Thanks for sharing that!
    Eliza Madrigal: It sounds like one of those things you could continue teasing apart
    SophiaSharon Larnia: sure, it sure isnt the scientific method
    SophiaSharon Larnia: someone could easily tear it apeart
    SophiaSharon Larnia: apart
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, was thinking more like a tangled necklace one keeps working with
    SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: What I like about it as an analogy (of we don't really know what yet?) is that there seems so much potential


    Xirana Oximoxi: you have made me think of visual illusions, the drawings of Escher ... for exemple this one:


    SophiaSharon Larnia: the phrase the one and the many comes up when i think about it. One book, many moments. And this information in it isnt just one (my) story. I hesitate to say I'm even a chapter.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: ah nice, i like that one
    Eliza Madrigal: OOoh, thank you Xirana, yes
    Eliza Madrigal: (goodness my daughter's friends think it is okay to just walk into my house! hah, just got a startle)
    Xirana Oximoxi: :))
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Eliza
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: oh well, the mindgames we play on ourselves
    Eliza Madrigal: Can you say more about how you relate the two Xirana?

    Xirana Oximoxi: I go slow:)) it comes from the comment of Sharon 'for me that meant that change is an illusion, '
    Xirana Oximoxi: when talking about flipbooks
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hmm
    milakel Resident: hi :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: thank you for the picture
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Mila
    Eliza Madrigal: stillness and dynamic vibrancy in the same place

    Image from google images main page of chameleons, inspired by O. ^.^

    ;-) Ding. Session two...

    Xirana Oximoxi: hi MIla:)
    milakel Resident: neko girl :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hola Mila :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: only one peep i know calls me that :D
    milakel Resident: good to see you all :)
    milakel Resident: *winks to sharon* :)
    Eliza Madrigal: cat's out of the bag :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hihi :) nice to see you too
    Eliza Madrigal: cute shoes, Mila
    milakel Resident: i can sit now :)
    Eliza Madrigal grins
    milakel Resident: thank you :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yayyy
    Xirana Oximoxi: hehe...yes..:)
    milakel Resident: viviane makes really nice sneakers
    Xirana Oximoxi: who is viviane, a friend of PaB?
    Xirana Oximoxi: or sl designer
    milakel Resident: it's amazing what these designers can do. i once tried to make a tshirt. it took me hours and i still wasn't satisfied in the end :)
    milakel Resident: yes, sl designer, xir
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :) me too Mila, that is my M.O.
    Xirana Oximoxi: ah ok:)..I agree about what sl desgners do.. I see really nice dresses,
    Eliza Madrigal: indeed! was remarking earlier at the way one can experience the texture of a fabric... that there seem to be qualities and ways of flowing

    SophiaSharon Larnia: mesh is coming live on the grid in june?/JUly
    Eliza Madrigal: mesh the texture?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: nope
    milakel Resident: huh?
    Eliza Madrigal: hehe
    SophiaSharon Larnia: a way of making objects, sculpties and even avatars
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, how will it change things?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: things are going to change a bit around here, well, maybe not right here in bieup :)
    milakel Resident: mesh is a wireframe so to speak
    Xirana Oximoxi: Mila, can we also touch your nose?? is it something in the family?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes thx
    milakel Resident: xir, hehe
    Xirana Oximoxi: :))
    SophiaSharon Larnia: laughs
    Eliza Madrigal: interesting, toward more realism?
    milakel Resident: sorry, no. but i may think of something :)
    Xirana Oximoxi: ok:))
    SophiaSharon Larnia: realism, or more oddities, ehm, that is origial expressions
    Eliza Madrigal: hehe
    SophiaSharon Larnia: a new toy
    milakel Resident: maybe it will finally make our feet look nice :)
    Eliza Madrigal: not sure if I'd like to have my overbite
    SophiaSharon Larnia: right mila? hahahaha
    SophiaSharon Larnia: lol Eliza, i heard you could also make a realistic sl avatar like that of your rl
    SophiaSharon Larnia: ava? :)

    Eliza Madrigal: yeah, that might cause a philosophial crisis, hehe
    milakel Resident: oh yes, some folks do that here
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yepp
    Eliza Madrigal: Zen's avatar lately looks strikingly similar to his RL appearance
    Eliza Madrigal: so I guess there are tools now
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i made one sort of like me and it gave me the eebie jeebies
    milakel Resident: hehe
    Xirana Oximoxi: I once read that if you send your picture to a good designer he can try to make your avatar similar to you
    Eliza Madrigal: I guess I like the idea of having 'rl appearance' as one option, but just one


    SophiaSharon Larnia: yep
    milakel Resident: like seeing your double in a crowd, sharon? :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: thats startling too Mila
    milakel Resident: :)
    Xirana Oximoxi: I don't bother at all about looking like in rl
    SophiaSharon Larnia: ive been told i have 'one of those faces', so it happens fairly frequently for me
    milakel Resident: i'd like to have a rl av in sl
    Eliza Madrigal: 'one of those faces'?
    Xirana Oximoxi: yes..?
    milakel Resident: sharon :)
    Eliza Madrigal: you have one of the most brilliant smiles I've ever seen, that's what I think of
    milakel Resident: cute neko face :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes, i get asked all the time if i am so and so, or, did you used to work at such and such
    Eliza Madrigal: ah :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: lol Eliza *blushing*
    Eliza Madrigal: yes there is someone named "Jennifer" who must look a lot like me because people tend to call me that
    Eliza Madrigal: (RL)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: haha
    Eliza Madrigal: I tried to make my av look like me, but scrubbed up and polished, at first
    Eliza Madrigal: :))
    SophiaSharon Larnia: ha! :)
    milakel Resident: :)
    milakel Resident: i've only been mistaken for harry potter :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :P
    Eliza Madrigal: after I moved on from the pink polka dotted av that I liked
    Eliza Madrigal: hehe Mila, can see that
    milakel Resident: that would be alf av :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: nods
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    milakel Resident: who is kind of me rl
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :D
    Eliza Madrigal: Cute :)
    milakel Resident: ah, pink polka. is it ruth? :)

    Xirana Oximoxi: when I came first to sl, I tryied too.. but I was soo relieved when I discovered one can find a skin and a body well done...I did such a mess with my avatar, and didn't know how go back..I mean to recover a normal size of a head, legs, arms... and so on

    SophiaSharon Larnia: oh now i get it, i didnt know what you meant but let it go lol
    Eliza Madrigal: heheh Xirana, re 'normal size of a head'
    SophiaSharon Larnia: haha Xirana, there is something unsettling about that!!
    milakel Resident: xir :)
    milakel Resident: i always make a copy of the shape
    Eliza Madrigal: organized =P~
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i give all my alts my shape, they all look like this one lolol
    Xirana Oximoxi: yes, but at first I didn't know one can do that
    milakel Resident: yes, after i goofed one :)
    Eliza Madrigal: heheheh
    Eliza Madrigal: I remember the first skin I bought I was startled by the make-up... seemed so much
    Eliza Madrigal: but I got used to it then it seemed normal
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes!! me too eliza
    milakel Resident: sharon, some of them have cute little ears :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: me too, again! lol
    Eliza Madrigal: :))
    SophiaSharon Larnia: aww thx :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: my first bought skin was totally natural, barely any makeup
    SophiaSharon Larnia: boring as heck
    milakel Resident: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: somehow it seems to help immersion to have some boldness?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: oh i have things in inventory that are bold
    Eliza Madrigal: like it fits the scene?
    Xirana Oximoxi: I'm still wearing the first skin I found in a freebie :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: that i do not wear
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :) Xirana
    Eliza Madrigal: wow, Nice freebie X!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes
    Xirana Oximoxi: :)

    milakel Resident: i think you can't go too bold from your nature

    SophiaSharon Larnia: can you say more?
    Xirana Oximoxi: I found one day a woman in a shop that said eshe was disgusted with my look..so newbie.. she gave me a lot of skins..but alll were with exagerated make up..I nver wear it
    Xirana Oximoxi: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: ah, yes people do that!
    Eliza Madrigal: strange manners in SL :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: oh that is rather rude, or something, I dont know if people mean well or if they are just mean
    Xirana Oximoxi: no no, she was very nice to me...
    milakel Resident: well, sl gives you endless options in appearance, but there's still a limitation of your self. your habits and cultural traditions.
    Eliza Madrigal: interesting point Mila
    Eliza Madrigal: for me it seems to be about setting and context... chameleonism
    milakel Resident: xir, haha :)
    Xirana Oximoxi: only she didn't like my look:) the hair I wear is also from her
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes Mila, i found stuff on a hunt that i like a lot but dont know if illl wear
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes Eliza that too
    Eliza Madrigal: I love belly dancing but not cozy showing too much skin at pab, so funny
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hehe
    Xirana Oximoxi: hehehe...
    SophiaSharon Larnia: for instance, if i showed up like this...
    SophiaSharon Larnia: not too much skin
    Eliza Madrigal: not sure....
    Eliza Madrigal: but you still have part of other outfit on for me
    SophiaSharon Larnia: but it changes your opinion on what you think id say


    SophiaSharon Larnia: even if i said most the same, it may be interpreted differently
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Eliza Madrigal: What about going naked in SL?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: well, almost hesitant to say my opinion on that one but
    Xirana Oximoxi: well..like in rl..if you go to a nude beach it seems natural...
    SophiaSharon Larnia: on the one hand iunderstand the statement that is makes
    SophiaSharon Larnia: and on the other, people that are naked all the time seem to have no personality to me
    SophiaSharon Larnia: our appearance shows a bit about what we are interested in
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, it does seem natural to the nude beach context
    SophiaSharon Larnia: sort of
    milakel Resident: xir, yes, i agree. if i'm on a nude beach in sl then why not :)
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, that's sort of my take too, re showing our interest, etc

    Xirana Oximoxi: but one day I found a boy in front of a shop.. I told him , just in case he was not aware, that he was nude... and he told me he knew.. he was just having fun :))

    SophiaSharon Larnia: okies got to go, have fun!!!
    milakel Resident: oh, that was fast :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye bye
    Xirana Oximoxi: bye Sophia
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye SHaron, tc :D
    milakel Resident: bye neko girl :)
    Korel Laloix: Heya
    Eliza Madrigal: have fun too
    milakel Resident: korel :)

    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Korel, nice to see you... has been a while!
    Eliza Madrigal: we were talking about SL appearances for a bit
    Eliza Madrigal: and not sure I'd be comfortable at a naked sim though that seems silly too... just pixels after all, right? guess that's where the cultural limitations come into play
    Eliza Madrigal: OR to be more complicated, I'd be more comfortable as an AV, naked in SL
    Korel Laloix: Been a bit more busy at work.
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: anything fascinating to share Korel?
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Korel Laloix: I find myself more comfotable being naked RL than in SL for some reason I can't figure out.
    milakel Resident: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: hmmm, yes that's a funny observation
    Korel Laloix: But I have noticed that my emotional responses to things in sL are sometiems more strong than in RL.
    milakel Resident: *thinks she never seen korel naked* :)
    Eliza Madrigal: so maybe your 'insides' are more vulnerable some how?
    Korel Laloix: I am definalty more paranoid in SL than RL.
    Korel Laloix: You are not missing much.
    milakel Resident: *giggles*
    Xirana Oximoxi: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: heheh
    milakel Resident: more paranoid in sl - that's interesting, korel
    Eliza Madrigal: very
    milakel Resident: why do you think so?
    Korel Laloix: THink of an underweight 13 year old boy with dark skin, acne and scars..... lol
    Korel Laloix: Not sure why.
    milakel Resident: :)
    Korel Laloix: I think probably becuase of some early SL expereinces that I had that were prety bad.
    Eliza Madrigal: oh, first impressions are hard to shake
    milakel Resident: ah, yes. could be that. made you more defensive.
    Korel Laloix: My only RL "boyfriend" I met on Sl and he truned out to be a real perve stalker sort.

    Xirana Oximoxi: I find that in SL when you talk with someone it's really direct... mind to mind
    Eliza Madrigal: yes!@ X... nodding

    Korel Laloix: It acts as alcohol... lowers your inhibitions with anonymitiy.
    Eliza Madrigal: eek Korel
    Eliza Madrigal: yes that might do it :) he was very different then, from SL?
    Korel Laloix: That seems to be the case at least from my objservatins.
    Eliza Madrigal: I've had rl boyfriends who turned out that way without my knowing them in SL first :)
    milakel Resident: :)
    Korel Laloix: It was weird. I joined SL to do a sesearch paper on SL sex.
    milakel Resident: ah, hot topic :)
    Xirana Oximoxi: yes... it can also happen rl only..at least sl= just an extension of rl...for me
    milakel Resident: korel, what are your findings?
    Korel Laloix: He heard of my effort, found me RL as we were actually in some of the same RL cources
    milakel Resident: xir, same
    Xirana Oximoxi: :)
    Korel Laloix: We met, we sort of dated, then he started getting possesive and demanding.
    Korel Laloix: And it wend down hill from there.
    Korel Laloix: Let me see if I still have the results.
    Eliza Madrigal: aw
    Eliza Madrigal: yes that would be really interesting!
    Eliza Madrigal: also, I do think there is something to the idea that SL exposes us (and others) in a different way to RL, places we may not have learned to buffer or cover yet... maybe mind nakedness :)
    Korel Laloix: I ended up moving to Florida to get away from him.
    Eliza Madrigal: wow Korel, drastic!
    Korel Laloix: Necessary.
    Korel Laloix: brb as Freud
    Eliza Madrigal: glad you were able to
    milakel Resident: oh... drastic indeed
    Xirana Oximoxi: yes... but it can also happen only rl.. as we said before
    Eliza Madrigal: sometimes I've found a confessional quality to SL, but that may be the internet in general
    Eliza Madrigal: yes


    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Freud! really ltns :))
    Xirana Oximoxi: what do you mean 'confessional quality', Eliza... a way to talk about more personal feelings?
    milakel Resident: freud :)
    Freud Jungsten: Heya
    Xirana Oximoxi: hi Freud:))
    Freud Jungsten: Who wanted to see my results?
    Eliza Madrigal: yes maybe X, that SL makes room for aspects of us that we don't show in RL perhaps
    Freud Jungsten: I only have an early draft on this computer.
    Eliza Madrigal: I'd love to see that Freud
    milakel Resident: me :)
    Xirana Oximoxi: ah yes. Eliza, I agree
    Eliza Madrigal: so there is that relief like when you meet someone who can hear/share without judgements
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Rhi :)
    Xirana Oximoxi: hi Rhia:)

    milakel Resident: eliza, i'm certainly more open in sl
    milakel Resident: i'd probably sit quietly in the circle in rl :)

    Eliza Madrigal: ty Korel
    Eliza Madrigal: are you Mila? since the beginning?
    Freud Jungsten: I think you RL creaps into Sl much more than you think.
    milakel Resident: um... i think it was gradual
    Freud Jungsten: And vsv.
    Freud Jungsten: I normally do SL at work where I am usually well dressed and in a nice organized place.
    Freud Jungsten: So I think I might come accross more still than I am in RL a good part o fthe time.
    Eliza Madrigal: I was way more open here than I ever intended , almost immediately
    Xirana Oximoxi: I must go now... nice time to all and see you soon!
    Eliza Madrigal: like, if someone would ask me almost anything, I would be shocked to answer
    Eliza Madrigal: hehe
    milakel Resident: siesta, xir! :)

    Freud Jungsten: I found in my study that people were far more open sexually here than in RL... lol.. go figure.
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye for now X, thanks :))
    Freud Jungsten: ciao
    Eliza Madrigal: that may be the reason some come here initially?
    Freud Jungsten: I did not find much of that in my informal questioning.
    Freud Jungsten: But it tends to keep people here...
    Eliza Madrigal: ah, interesting
    Eliza Madrigal: yes I've done interviews in SL but not many on the sex topic
    Eliza Madrigal: maybe unfortunately, hehe
    Eliza Madrigal: romance, yes
    Freud Jungsten: I was chemically labotomized at the time on ADHD drugs so I had no libido.
    milakel Resident: there's an idea for a workshop, eliza :)
    Eliza Madrigal: oh :( glad you got off those
    Freud Jungsten: So I found the whole assignment to be a bit odd, not arrousing.
    Eliza Madrigal: romance workshop? :)
    milakel Resident: um, that too :)
    Eliza Madrigal: so you felt disconnected a bit then....
    Freud Jungsten: There are workshops on SL sex... lol
    Eliza Madrigal: heheh Mila, I am not qualified to do that workshop
    milakel Resident: not in pab, freud :)
    milakel Resident: eliza :)
    milakel Resident: who would be?
    Freud Jungsten: I thought I saw a note about a Tantric sex workshop here a while back.
    Eliza Madrigal: hm, a workshop on pab sex....
    Eliza Madrigal: not sure anyone would be :)
    milakel Resident: hehe
    Eliza Madrigal laughs
    Rhiannon Dragoone: hi Eliza
    milakel Resident: rhia :)
    Freud Jungsten: Heya.
    Eliza Madrigal giggling that I read your line as 'titanic sex workshop'
    Freud Jungsten: I just find it so interesting the different things people do in SL.
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Rhi :)
    Eliza Madrigal: on text client today?
    Freud Jungsten: How much artistry is put into evertying here... sex, religion, philosphy, business, art, etc.
    Eliza Madrigal: yes!
    Eliza Madrigal: good point
    Eliza Madrigal: I love that about it
    Rhiannon Dragoone: hi xi
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, you must be lagging Rhi, Xirana left a while ago
    Eliza Madrigal: I think it shows us our mythologies in a way, too
    Eliza Madrigal: we 'see' the artistry
    Freud Jungsten: And how liberating this place is to people with major disabilities.
    Eliza Madrigal: indeed
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Eliza, yes; on a text client. But supposed to get DSzl today. I'm so excited!
    Eliza Madrigal: was sex the only thing you researched in SL, Korel
    Eliza Madrigal: Congrats Rhi :))
    Freud Jungsten: That was the reason I joined.
    Freud Jungsten: Just stayed mainly to chat.
    Rhiannon Dragoone: hi mil
    Freud Jungsten: Will admit I tried the subject matter a bit as well.. smiles
    Rhiannon Dragoone: hi Freud
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    Eliza Madrigal: "for research"


    Freud Jungsten: Oh heck no... when I got of the ADHD drugs, my libido wanted to make up for lost time... SL helped...
    milakel Resident: sorry, have to go
    Eliza Madrigal: I thought I'd attend concerts and political rallies but have done little of that
    milakel Resident: thank you for the company :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Mila, thanks :)
    Eliza Madrigal: ...pondering whether we can make up lost time and if there could be such a thing
    Freud Jungsten: Not sure if it worked, but my libido sure gave it a good try...
    Freud Jungsten: wow... good and bad memories.
    Eliza Madrigal: heheh
    Eliza Madrigal: thanks for sharing all this freud, direct experience is really interesting to hear about
    Rhiannon Dragoone: AI use SL for my discussions, to go to discussions, and to meet people; have experiences I couldn't have in SL
    Freud Jungsten: Welcome.
    Eliza Madrigal nods... when I saw that there were so many interesting discussions in SL I was blown away
    Freud Jungsten: I mostly use Sl to chat now.
    Freud Jungsten: Especially when bored at work.
    Eliza Madrigal: :) nice to be able to connect from work
    Freud Jungsten: There are so many bad discussion as well./
    Eliza Madrigal: hah, maybe
    Freud Jungsten: Like going to Philosohpy house.. just sit around and listen people tell each other how stupid they are beucase they think differently...
    Freud Jungsten: Good comedy if nothing else.
    Eliza Madrigal: yes I was turned off by that early on
    Eliza Madrigal: but met a few nice people who IMed while others were insulting one another
    Eliza Madrigal: :)

    Eliza Madrigal: and saw some brilliant avatar displays there!
    Eliza Madrigal: people who can morph really quickly....
    Freud Jungsten: The art to the AV does amaze me.
    Eliza Madrigal nods, and some seem so adept at shape shifting

                   Part 3: Dialogue about Dialogue and "bad behavior"

    Rhiannon Dragoone: Freud, well there are good discussions there too, especially when Maddy is There. Most if the obnoxious ones are at Philosophy Island now.
    Freud Jungsten: IN over four years of poping in and out of there, never had a good chat yet.
    Eliza Madrigal: wow, direct observation :)
    Eliza Madrigal: so you aren't still banned Rhi? or is that from Philosophy Island?
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Freud, go when Maddy is There.
    Rhiannon Dragoone: I'm banned from Philosophy Island, Not PH
    Eliza Madrigal: ah :)
    Freud Jungsten: It was brought to my attention while ago, I have been in Sl for more than a quarter of my life.
    Freud Jungsten: Strange.
    Freud Jungsten: Or sad mabye.
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Besides, a ban simply means you go as an alt
    Eliza Madrigal: yup @ Rhi :)
    Freud Jungsten: Why you get banned?
    Eliza Madrigal: wait... then you are quite young Freud!
    Eliza Madrigal: 4 years is a quarter of your life?
    Freud Jungsten: Only been to PH for four years.
    Eliza Madrigal: ah :)
    Freud Jungsten: Been in Sl since 05.
    Freud Jungsten: I am 24
    Rhiannon Dragoone: What is strange or sad? That I'm banned from PI? Typical, wouldn't you say? That the most popular philosophy speaker would be banned from a philosophy sim run by mediocrities?
    Eliza Madrigal: wow, okay... >whew<
    Eliza Madrigal: :))
    Freud Jungsten: No... lol.. Sad I have been in SL a quarter of my life.
    Eliza Madrigal: early adpoter, Freud
    Freud Jungsten: I have only been threatende with banning a couple of times.
    Freud Jungsten: But never banned.
    Freud Jungsten: Well.. just told about it as a reserach topic.
    Freud Jungsten: That is why I joined.
    Eliza Madrigal: yes

    Freud Jungsten: Sl has changed a lot for sure.
    Eliza Madrigal: even though it seems many who came into virtual worlds are revisiting the trajectory, I'm sure it will be more part of RL not less
    Freud Jungsten: And the discussion have gotten much better.
    Eliza Madrigal: have they? due to people staying in a while?
    Eliza Madrigal: building up complexity?
    Freud Jungsten: Just more people and more palces to chat.
    Eliza Madrigal: ah
    Freud Jungsten: A more diverse crowd.
    Eliza Madrigal: there is supposedly a very large percentage with advanced degrees, though I wouldn't be in that category
    Eliza Madrigal: but it is interesting nonetheless
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Freud, I wrote a notecard about it, which ill send you when I get my DSL. Suffice it This sat, the sim owner Didn't want an ex-hooker speaking in her hoity- toity sim ABS some think she's being salieri. The official reason is that I quoted an elected official of the sim, yli helendale, who sometimes comes to PaB
    Freud Jungsten: lol
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Aph :)
    Rhiannon Dragoone: hi aoh
    Freud Jungsten: In six years not been banned once.
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hello everyone


    Eliza Madrigal: Nice to see you Aph and Ping :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
    Freud Jungsten: Been threatened with it when I brought up the fact that Obama is a sexisty racist warmonger though..... lol.. Thanks tends to annoy people... smiles
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Well good for you. In a Year and a half I've been banned five times; two places went ubmnder, in one, the sim admin banned me but welcomes me with open arms as ling as I come as an alt
    Eliza Madrigal: for me it boils down to context... what 'kind' of conversation is the format
    Freud Jungsten: That is a good point.
    Rhiannon Dragoone: One banned me fir not riding the dolphin ride.
    Freud Jungsten: And people can be soooo touchy here... I think tha tis the right word.
    Eliza Madrigal: protective maybe :)
    Eliza Madrigal: was the dolphin offended Rhi?
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Freud Jungsten: Dophins are very touchy as well.
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes, when their beliefs or values are being transgressed. Normal
    Eliza Madrigal: yes and can be very aggressive (dolphins)

    Aphrodite Macbain imagines swimming with the dolphins
    Eliza Madrigal: :)) Aph
    Aphrodite Macbain: a fantasy
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Eliza, no the sim owner was, who spent a lot of time making it
    Aphrodite Macbain: like flying with eagles
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, lovely, a fantasy can cleanse one's mental pallate
    Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Yes. i regret not riding it
    Aphrodite Macbain: change the perspective perhaps
    Aphrodite Macbain: flying above the world

    Freud Jungsten: The interesting thing about banning to me is....
    Freud Jungsten: That is is soo counterproductive.
    Freud Jungsten: It makes the banned more detremined and it really not a threat.
    Freud Jungsten: As you can make an alt in about three mins if you want.
    Aphrodite Macbain: Yes, it can be just a temporary solution to a deeper problem
    Eliza Madrigal: sometimes there isn't anything else one can do, with true griefers who only want to disrupt
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes, it's a difficult decision to make
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Being banned from PI turned me into an augmentist, though. I used to take bans as rejection, but the majority if people at OI didn't reject ne and are upset at the van. Meanwhile, as an alt, I'm treated well There, even by those who hate me.
    Eliza Madrigal: Interesting! so you made an opportunity
    Aphrodite Macbain: strange
    Freud Jungsten: Tone is everything sometimes.
    Eliza Madrigal: maybe diff avs bring out diff tones (n others too)
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Eliza, Yes!
    Freud Jungsten: It is funny, I chat a lot at the Mormon sim and am very heretical to them.
    Freud Jungsten: But never been threatened with banning.
    Aphrodite Macbain: perhaps their buttons don't get pressed as easily
    Eliza Madrigal: that's a wonderful thing, freud.... when we can communicate well even with people who have wildly different views about some things
    Rhiannon Dragoone: That was why I git banned, for quoting someone who dusareed with that, eliza
    Freud Jungsten: Maybe a matter of degree as well.
    Freud Jungsten: I am a moderate in most things, so I uniformly annoy most people to a medium extent.
    Freud Jungsten: lol
    Rhiannon Dragoone: I get along with Mormons too, but an Anglican git ne SL suspended; his deacon apologized on behalf of the church.
    Freud Jungsten: But if you have a really strong view on a specific point, maybe it pushes things.
    Eliza Madrigal: ah, because you find that people tend not to see where they are extreme?

    Aphrodite Macbain: I suppose if the intention was to be deliberately rude and insulting, as opposed to offering ideas that were contrary to those upheld in one particular group
    Freud Jungsten: I think most people know they have extream views on subjects.
    Aphrodite Macbain: banning might be apropriate
    Eliza Madrigal: agree Aph
    Freud Jungsten: But extream views are not bad most of the time.
    Eliza Madrigal: hard to see intention sometimes too
    Aphrodite Macbain: no Freud, just different
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes. Depends on the wwords used I suppose - racist, sexist, hateful
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Sure, Aph, and You can always say the sane things as an alt, si it doesn't deny you freedom of speech
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Those are allowed at PI
    Eliza Madrigal: it seems to be extreme if someone is sure they are right... then there is no place for conversation
    Aphrodite Macbain: no possibility of dialogue Eliza?
    Freud Jungsten: Not true though... there are things I am very sure of that I enjoy chatting about.
    Eliza Madrigal: then there is a feeling of 'well, what would be the point of conversing?" yes
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes, if here is no listening
    Aphrodite Macbain: what is the point?
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Its dialogue that gets ne banned. Extreme and dogmatic statements are fine at the philosophy Sims
    Eliza Madrigal: I may think I'm right but enjoy having that tested because I leave space
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes you do Eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: my kids might say otherwise, hehe
    Aphrodite Macbain: It sometimes takes an awareness and a discipline to do that


    Aphrodite Macbain: -givving space, listening
    Freud Jungsten: True.
    Freud Jungsten: It does take a bit of effort to listen when you don't want to.
    Eliza Madrigal: in some ways it comes back to speed?
    Aphrodite Macbain whispers "gotta go" nice being with you three
    Eliza Madrigal: Nice to see you Aph :) have a lovely day
    Freud Jungsten: ciao
    Aphrodite Macbain: Byee
    Eliza Madrigal: in a heated discussion I sometimes can't 'slow down' enouigh to hear the point the other has made in full dimension
    Eliza Madrigal: like walking around a sculpture seeing various sides
    Rhiannon Dragoone: see You, Aph
    Eliza Madrigal: maybe in SL this is amplified
    Eliza Madrigal: or can be without some tools
    Eliza Madrigal: like a bell :)
    Eliza Madrigal: or talking stick, like the OBP group uses

    Freud Jungsten: People like to be right... right now... not caring a bout the future that discussion will help with.
    Eliza Madrigal: good point too
    Eliza Madrigal: narrow down
    Rhiannon Dragoone: IR a good moderator. I've had to out some disscusssnts in their corners, so to speak.
    Eliza Madrigal: how would you tend to handle that? or make that decision?
    Freud Jungsten: handle what?
    Eliza Madrigal: if you were moderating and felt 'responsible' to protect a discussion
    Rhiannon Dragoone: When They are fighting, not discusding, and I warn them at first.
    Freud Jungsten: A time out would be good...
    Freud Jungsten: Just like I do with my nephews....
    Eliza Madrigal nods :))
    Eliza Madrigal: sometimes with kids if they are hitting a lot it is because they don't know how to 'use their words'
    Eliza Madrigal: so get easily frustrated with themselves
    Freud Jungsten: Maybe more of a boy thing though.
    Rhiannon Dragoone: I've actually only had to ban just a few times..And I only ban for bad behavior, having learned the futility of banning the person, I only ban the behavior.
    Freud Jungsten: I grew up in a very violent house and don't mind myself drawn to hitting ever.
    Freud Jungsten: But that might just be me.
    Freud Jungsten: But also, I was never hit, I was thrown, so maybe that is the difference.
    Eliza Madrigal: do you experience that in verbal ways too?
    Eliza Madrigal: maybe a strange way of putting it... but we have a little in common there and I find myself to have a bit of perspective
    Freud Jungsten: I did... I no longer live there.
    Eliza Madrigal: having seen people so overreactive and 'out of their minds'
    Eliza Madrigal: its funny, but we've actually been having the beginnings of discussion about non-violent communication, but I've felt that term is a bit strong
    Eliza Madrigal: seems a judgment in itself
    Freud Jungsten: Words can be worse than fists.

                 [I chose to edit some things here, though may add them later. I'm slowing down to consider]


    Eliza Madrigal: I always figure I'm not obligated to share, like some have said about having disabilities, etc
    Freud Jungsten: There are things I don't talk about for sure.
    Freud Jungsten: But I try to be open.
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Eliza Madrigal: I've enjoyed talking with you very much
    Eliza Madrigal: but have been on since 9am, hehhe
    Eliza Madrigal: haven't done that in months!
    Freud Jungsten: Can benice to have a chat form time to time.
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh... 6am SLt time
    Freud Jungsten: Dreadfully slow today at work.
    Eliza Madrigal: yes :)wish you peace with that, and with everything
    Eliza Madrigal: better sign off for a while
    Eliza Madrigal: bye for now, glad you had a slower day than lately
    Freud Jungsten: ciao
    Freud Jungsten: Take care.
    Eliza Madrigal: tc2

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