2011.06.10 06:00 - Out of Time

    The Guardian for this meeting was Bleu Oleander. The comments are by Bleu Oleander.




    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Pema!
    Pema Pera: hi Bruce -- so good to see you again!
    Pema Pera: Hi Yaku, good to see you too :)
    Bruce Mowbray: thanks!, Pema. It is great to be back.
    Pema Pera: and also I'm very glad that you are still able to join us in Nova Scotia, next month!
    Bruce Mowbray: Oh yes. I'm so looking forward to that!
    Pema Pera: Hi ELiza!
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bruce!!
    Eliza Madrigal: And Hi Pema and Yaku too :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Eliza.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: Very nice to see you Bruce
    Bruce Mowbray: thanks, eliza, it's great to be back.
    Eliza Madrigal: :))
    Pema Pera: I was really touched by your report, Bruce -- but perhaps we should wait a few more minutes to gather stray avatars before talking about it in detail :-)
    Pema Pera: hi Bleu!
    Eliza Madrigal: yes
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bleu :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Bleu.
    Bruce Mowbray: ty, Bleu.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: morning blue
    Pema Pera: (that could be the name of a flower!)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Bleu Oleander ⊱ smiles ⊰
    Pema Pera: (but that would then give a "bouquet of morning blues"....)
    Pema Pera: thank you, Bleu!
    Eliza Madrigal: thanks much Bleu
    Bleu Oleander: yvw!
    Pema Pera: I was struck, reading the reports, how much they overlapped
    Pema Pera: like sometimes happens with the dreams in the dream circle
    Eliza Madrigal: interesting, yes
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey darren
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Darren :)
    Bleu Oleander: hi darren
    Darren Islar: hi everyone, good to see you Bruce :)
    Pema Pera: the opening up, widening out -- Riddle's "third way" (stepping aside) to go beyond (actually, aside from) dualities was such a perfect picture
    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Darren.
    Pema Pera: hi Darren!
    Pema Pera: and each report testified to that "making a side step" in various ways
    Eliza Madrigal: hmm
    Pema Pera: "infinite in new directions" (or even all directions, following Bruce :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: :))
    Darren Islar: (sorry need to relog)
    Pema Pera: Bruce, would you like to tell us a bit more about how it was to be "in the belly of the beast" of modern hospitals and yet have such an inclusive experience?
    Eliza Madrigal: such a stark picture when reading your report Bruce 'the hospital room'
    Eliza Madrigal listens
    Bruce Mowbray: Well, I'd never been hospitalized before in my life.
    Pema Pera: !!!
    Bruce Mowbray: and I was very sick for the first few days ---
    Pema Pera is afraid that the suggestion "explore something new" was taken too literally by Bruce . . . .
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Bleu Oleander: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: so there was this very intense 24-hour-per-day effort to find a diagnosis, treatments, tests, and who knows what else.
    Bruce Mowbray: after about four days of this, I recognized that I was beginning to resist and resent it -- especiall the middle-of-the-night interrutions.
    Bruce Mowbray: So, (I like Riddle's way of saying it) --
    Bruce Mowbray: I stepped out of the way.
    Pema Pera: :)

    Bruce Mowbray: The image I had was a bit like a Sufi dancer....
    Bruce Mowbray: ---- or perhaps a couple dozen Sufi dancers -- each poised, alert, and receptive to the experience - each infinite in all directions (Freemon Dyson)
    Bruce Mowbray: there was a complementary flow of diversification and unification -- each of us was doing both. . . .
    Bruce Mowbray: I really like Riddle's "Third Way." That says it best, I think.
    Bruce Mowbray: (end)
    Eliza Madrigal: Thanks so much Bruce
    Pema Pera: . . . dancing out of the way . . .
    Pema Pera: sounds so much nicer than "transcending"!
    Eliza Madrigal: I think I'm struck mostly by your sense of 'each of us was doing both'
    Eliza Madrigal: like, "wait, that wasn't one of the choices"
    Eliza Madrigal: :))
    Darren Islar nods
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Bruce Mowbray ponders: At the same moment that I am observing this one particular leaf and its beauty, the entire universe is watching me. . . . So, there is a complementary aspect to it - and no need for dualities --- although I still find it impossible to say adequately inn a few words.
    Pema Pera: you're doing pretty well, Bruce! (^_^)
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-) ty
    Darren Islar: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: I want to hear more about the bald eagle . . .
    Bruce Mowbray: was that Maxine? or Eliza?
    Eliza Madrigal: ah, Maxine, travelling this weekend :)
    Pema Pera: hahah, we are all becoming one!
    Eliza Madrigal: and I'd love to hear more too!
    Eliza Madrigal: yes :D
    Bruce Mowbray: oh yes, Maxine.
    Pema Pera: I liked Eliza's "many many dreams all opening in one place"
    Bruce Mowbray: I'm wonderful about her experience -- and whether she was allowing herself to be seen by the eagle as well as her counselee.
    Bruce Mowbray: I feel that Eliza's report show us a lot about how we can become dualistic to ourselves -- something I've done my whole life-- through lots of self-judgment and second-guessing.
    Eliza Madrigal: it has often sounded trite to me... the whole 'accept yourself first' thing...
    Pema Pera: "love yourself like your neighbor" . . . .
    Eliza Madrigal: but when you see it, wow
    Eliza Madrigal: it isn't about first or last I guess....

    Eliza Madrigal: the setting up of a false choice
    Bruce Mowbray wonders if "acceptance" of self exventually requires the acceptance of absolutely everything, everyone, and also all possibilities --- Otherwise, there's this "hook" that could snag us at any time -- All it takes is something that we imagine (project) to be "other," "alien," and "separate."
    Eliza Madrigal nods nods
    Eliza Madrigal: you mentioned illusions in your report Pema... would you say more?
    Pema Pera quickly rereading Pema's report
    Eliza Madrigal: :))
    Bleu Oleander: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: he's an interesting fellow, highly recommend....
    Pema Pera: (*^_^*)
    Darren Islar nods to Bruce
    Pema Pera: hmmm, how to put that in words, the growing sense that illusion and reality are not opposites
    Pema Pera: that you dont' have to choose between them . . . .
    Pema Pera: that both can be true at the same time . . .
    Pema Pera: that fairy tales capture an important side of reality -- and that reality is not as real as we normally think . . . .
    Pema Pera: magic
    Pema Pera: in both senses of the word:
    Bruce Mowbray: ;
    Pema Pera: magic as illusion and magic as letting new aspects be seen
    Bruce Mowbray: ;)
    Pema Pera hopes that sort-of answers Eliza's question :)
    Eliza Madrigal: well it is an intruiguing picture you painted...
    Eliza Madrigal: illusion as part of/included in the/a body of reality...
    Pema Pera: reality and illusion are like two ends of a stick, you can't separate them
    Pema Pera: like self and other -- as Bruce noticed
    Pema Pera: really accepting self is really accepting all that is other
    Eliza Madrigal: dig into the self and find the other?
    Bruce Mowbray: from Pema's report: "And with the distinction between reality and illusion lessoning, it also became natural to see the same intrinsic kinship and shared presence with birds and bushes, with bricks and dust on the road. Reality/Illusion spoke to me, and to itself, to me as part of itself, in shades of fairy tales as well as in the precision of measurements and certainty, with no lines of demarcation, no No Man's Land, no border guards."
    Eliza Madrigal: hmm, yes... very practical actually... in having difficult discussions, etc. or reconciling 'past' events
    Pema Pera: that must be hard . . . .
    Eliza Madrigal: read a Dorothy Parker quote this morning "I don't mind what anyone writes about me as long as it isn't true"
    Eliza Madrigal: :))
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: (so nice to hear you laughing again bruce) hehehe
    Pema Pera: (^_^)

    Bruce Mowbray: :)))
    Eliza Madrigal: you also mentioned 'calculating' Pema... funny how we tend to calculate all the time, even 'is this reality?' , 'is this illusion?'
    Eliza Madrigal: measuring
    Bruce Mowbray: In Chap. 14, Pema writes, "The best think might be fore us to play that we are already beyond the dualities. . . . " (e.g. of conflicts with a fellow worked, etc.) ---
    Pema Pera: yes, illusion doesn't imply "vague" or ambiguous
    Pema Pera: (@ Eliza)
    Pema Pera: yes, Bruce, I think we have all been playing pretty well in our reports this week :-)
    Bruce Mowbray: What if we really DO SEE ourselves as beyond those dualities, is it even necessary to play anymore -- or is there danger in taking ourselves too seriously, literally? or of thinking that we are somehow "superior" because of our being able to get past the dualities?. . . (too many questions at once, sry).
    Bleu Oleander: in any sense does your use of illusion contain a sense of deception?
    Pema Pera: play can take many forms . . . goats playing on a field, clouds chasing each other in the sky, us playing in whatever way we want . . . .
    Pema Pera: the challenge concerning deception is to find ways to sidestep the question of deception versus non-deception
    Pema Pera: is there room there?
    Pema Pera: or do we feel obliged to find out whether something is deception or not?
    Pema Pera: is it a one-dimensional question?
    Bleu Oleander: do you see any reason to make a distinction between deception and reality then?
    Pema Pera: I have a choice:
    Pema Pera: I can move between the two poles of a duality, and that can be very interesting
    Pema Pera: or I can step out of the way and look at a wider playing field
    Pema Pera: both are possible and can be very fruitful
    Pema Pera: hi Lucinda!
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Luci :)
    Bleu Oleander: hi Luci
    Lucinda Lavender: Hi Pema and all!
    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Luci!
    Lucinda Lavender: please continue:)
    Darren Islar: hi Luci :)
    Eliza Madrigal: the image of the hospital room is such a strong one... cold tools, dizzy body... how not to be attached to wanting to leave
    Bruce Mowbray ponders that the options for 'stepping out of the way' are infinite in all directions.s
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: an infinity of "playing fields"
    Bruce Mowbray: no No Man's Land - No Border Guards.
    Eliza Madrigal: ahhh... considers the basketball game I watched last night, how in an instant those players survey many openings and almost seem to take many in one step
    Bruce Mowbray: (wonderful image, Eliza).
    Eliza Madrigal: quite amazing really!
    Pema Pera: infinite as everything is, we've reached the end of our hour :-)
    Lucinda Lavender: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: defying measurement , to the outsider view
    Bleu Oleander: ah a duality

    Pema Pera: two more sessions to go!
    Eliza Madrigal: !
    Bleu Oleander: time and no more time
    Pema Pera: I'll write something more soon and will let you know
    Eliza Madrigal: :))
    Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm. Thanks you all. This has been a perfect way to start the day --- I've enjoyed it MUCH!
    Pema Pera: yes, and timeless time too :-)
    Bleu Oleander: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Thank you everyone
    Pema Pera: and a perfect way for me to end a long day :-)
    Bleu Oleander: bye all :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Rest well Bruce and Pema :)
    Pema Pera: yes, thanks a lot!

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    18.97 kB14:25, 10 Jun 2011BleuActions
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    Hi Bruce, and All:

    Following up on your remark in the Time Session, early today:

    [2011/06/10 06:32] Bruce (bruce.mowbray) wonders if "acceptance" of
    self exventually requires the acceptance of absolutely everything,
    everyone, and also all possibilities --- Otherwise, there's this
    "hook" that could snag us at any time -- All it takes is something
    that we imagine (project) to be "other," "alien," and "separate."

    I just thought about the Genjokoan chapter of Dogen's main work,
    the Shobogenzo (Dogen was on of the first Japanese zen masters).
    There are many translations, so I picked one at random. Here are
    just a few paragraphs:

    To carry yourself forward and experience myriad things is
    delusion. That myriad things come forth and experience
    themselves is awakening.

    To study the buddha way is to study the self. To study
    the self is to forget the self. To forget the self is
    to be actualized by myriad things. When actualized by
    myriad things, your body and mind as well as the bodies
    and minds of others drop away. No trace of realization
    remains, and this no-trace continues endlessly.

    The depth of the drop is the height of the moon. Each
    reflection, however long or short its duration, manifests
    the vastness of the dewdrop, and realizes the limitlessness
    of the moonlight in the sky.

    (from http://genjokoan.com/)


    [An email sent post time session]
    Posted 06:01, 11 Jun 2011
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