2011.06.10 19:00 - Catfish and other friends

    The Guardian for this meeting was Sylectra Darwin. The comments are by Sylectra Darwin.


    Sylectra Darwin: hi!
    Sylectra Darwin: brb
    Sylectra Darwin: back
    Sylectra Darwin: evening
    Eos Amaterasu: HI Sylectra
    Eos Amaterasu: it's only in second life that we can truly have pet fish orbiting us
    Sylectra Darwin: That's what I was thinking too!
    Sylectra Darwin: This is a catfish of some sort. I caught him in the fishing game.
    Sylectra Darwin: How are you?
    Eos Amaterasu: Ah, just discovered there's a whole book in front of me (history of PaB)
    Sylectra Darwin: very nice :)
    Eos Amaterasu: I'm fine. My son is having a LAN party. There's a Greek Festival going on, with music you can here from my house
    Eos Amaterasu: hear
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Hokon
    Hokon Cazalet: HIYAS =)
    Hokon Cazalet: whoops caps
    Eos Amaterasu: He he
    Hokon Cazalet: =)
    Sylectra Darwin: Hokon :)
    Sylectra Darwin: Hi Paradise, Roger!
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Para!
    Paradise Tennant: hiya sylectra , eos .. roger , hokon :)) gtsy :)
    Sylectra Darwin: all of you are still gray to me
    Eos Amaterasu: stevenaia
    stevenaia Michinaga: waves, happy weekend
    Paradise Tennant: hiya stev :) happy friday nite :)))
    Sylectra Darwin: happy weekend
    stevenaia Michinaga: hokon have to leave?
    stevenaia Michinaga: wb
    Hokon Cazalet: =)
    stevenaia Michinaga: hi Eos
    Paradise Tennant: wb :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: PAradise, Sylectra, roger
    Eos Amaterasu: I try to come in colors everywhere
    Hokon Cazalet: =)
    Sylectra Darwin: I'm obviously sitting too far from the wifi source.
    Sylectra Darwin: I cannot see you guys. Sad face
    Eos Amaterasu: the wellspring itself
    Paradise Tennant: nice fish syulectra :) a beauty :)
    Hokon Cazalet loves sylectra's shoes =)
    Sylectra Darwin: thank you both :)
    Hokon Cazalet: =)
    Sylectra Darwin: The fishie I caught quote by chance in a pond in Blanda.
    Sylectra Darwin: It's a catfish.
    Hokon Cazalet: =)
    Sylectra Darwin: I love catfish because they can live a long time and so they seem to be very mysterious, wise and powerful.
    Paradise Tennant: quite fey for a catfish :)
    Sylectra Darwin: Once I realized how long they can live, I stopped eating them.
    Eos Amaterasu: there's a fish without a bicycle if I ever saw one :-)
    Sylectra Darwin: hehe - I don't get the reference, Eos?
    Paradise Tennant: how long can they live ?
    Eos Amaterasu: hmm, well the sight of a fish circumambulating you, in motion, made me think of that saying
    Sylectra Darwin: between 15 and 30 years.
    Paradise Tennant: wow that is long for a fish :)
    Sylectra Darwin: Very. And they can get so big! I saw one in an aquarium, a big blue catfish as long and big around as me.
    Sylectra Darwin: He opened one eye and looked at me, then shut it again.
    Sylectra Darwin: ...and went back to sleep.
    Sylectra Darwin: They had put an old tire in the tank with him, because that was Oklahoma.
    Sylectra Darwin: So Eos I am imagining a catfish on a bicycle now!
    Paradise Tennant: maybe his dreams were better than his live in the tank :)
    Sylectra Darwin: haha!
    Roger Ormenthal: For a topic, how about eating animals vs. loving animals?
    Sylectra Darwin: He didn't have much room, that's for sure.
    Sylectra Darwin: Sure, Roger.
    Eos Amaterasu: Oh, there's the famous (I thought) saying that "a woman without a man is like a fish without a bicycle"
    Sylectra Darwin: giggles
    Eos Amaterasu: I wasn't thinking about the woman part, but about the fish without a bicycle part
    Eos Amaterasu: :-)
    Eos Amaterasu: (I get hung up easily :-)
    Paradise Tennant: smiles i bet that was coined by a woman :)
    Sylectra Darwin: hee hee!
    Eos Amaterasu: or a fish
    Sylectra Darwin: Are there any vegetarians here?
    Hokon Cazalet: i used to be one myself
    Paradise Tennant: try to be :)
    Paradise Tennant: not always sucessfully
    Eos Amaterasu: I am full of vegetarians
    Sylectra Darwin: indeed?
    Eos Amaterasu: mitochondria, for example
    Sylectra Darwin: I sometimes eat vegetarian food, sometimes chicken and, sorry mr. catfish, sometimes fish.
    Roger Ormenthal: I was a lacto-ovo-veg for 25 years, now I eat chicken but not beef. My original reasons were philosophical, and now I am an admitted hypocrite. I aspire to become a vegan, when I can get that together.
    Sylectra Darwin: I am reading a book about vegetarianism - "The Food Revolution: How Your Diet Can Help Save Your Life and Our World" by John Robbins, a child of Baskin-Robbins.
    Eos Amaterasu first heard the term "vegan" in the context of "resident of planet around the star Vega", and so visualizes vegans a bit differently
    Hokon Cazalet: hehe eos
    Sylectra Darwin: Ah, now that would be something!
    Sylectra Darwin: Do you suppose the Vegans have blue skin?
    Eos Amaterasu: it's indeed a challenge as to how to eat what who
    Roger Ormenthal: Yes, I aspire to build a starship and move to Vega, and once there not eat animals or animal products.
    Eos Amaterasu: life seems to eat life
    Sylectra Darwin: Old Blue
    Eos Amaterasu: there are certainly cultures which combine reverence with the taking of life for food
    Eos Amaterasu: spend 9 seconds with your next bite
    Eos Amaterasu: but we, as a planet, have a long way to go before we get it right, so to speak
    Paradise Tennant: yes
    Hokon Cazalet: our species is young =)
    Sylectra Darwin smiles
    Roger Ormenthal: I do not disparage anyone for their food choices. I feel that eating lower on the food chain is more kind.
    Eos Amaterasu: momma needs to take us by the scruff of our necks
    Sylectra Darwin: Roger, that's sort of how I view it too. Also, for health reasons I almost never eat pork or beef, but probably chicken is nearly as bad for you these days.
    Eos Amaterasu: yes, I kind of envy the photosynthetic side of the family :-)
    Eos Amaterasu: oh, to be a blue-green algae!
    Sylectra Darwin: I would feel better about the whole thing if the animals who serve to nourish us could lead good lives free of fear or discomfort.
    Roger Ormenthal: Well there is organic chicken which helps on the health side, but does not address the philosophical side.
    Eos Amaterasu: yes. I don't like the idea that we create vast herds of dumbed down animals
    Paradise Tennant: lentils are always a happy choice no ethical conflict and they are quite tasty :)
    Hokon Cazalet: my problem is a horrible inconsistency in myself, i eat meat easily yet if i had to kill animals myself, id rather starve, i couldnt feel ok with myself having to kill another sentient being just to live
    Roger Ormenthal: Some say the animals "volunteer" for their function as food, but I have trouble with that idea.
    Hokon Cazalet: hehe paradise
    Eos Amaterasu: hmm, yes (wonders if you can grow them in Nova Scotia)
    Hokon Cazalet: animals dont have a function as food, thats an aristotelian-style thinking, which got debunked 400 years ago lol
    Eos Amaterasu: well, we are all volunteers
    Eos Amaterasu: except for we probably don't recall choosing to be
    Eos Amaterasu: HI Storm
    Storm Nordwind: Hi everyone
    Paradise Tennant: hiya storm gtsy
    Roger Ormenthal: If we have both a spiritual and biological heritage, then the consumption of animals may be a natural function that over time will change as we evolve, first for some, and eventually for all. This is not to insult meat eaters as unevolved.
    Hokon Cazalet: i take no offense =)
    Eos Amaterasu: we could deepen our understanding of life's autopoeisis
    Paradise Tennant: maybe we just need to come with different forms of proteins :)
    Roger Ormenthal: (And I myself do currently eat meat.)
    Eos Amaterasu: which includes its living off of itself
    Paradise Tennant: that are as tasty and satisfiying
    Paradise Tennant: but don't have a sense of humor
    Hokon Cazalet: make them even more tasty =)
    Hokon Cazalet: intice people's self-interest
    Eos Amaterasu: there's probably some psychological components as well
    Eos Amaterasu: that are part of the experience
    Eos Amaterasu: or meat eating
    Eos Amaterasu: of
    Paradise Tennant: had to stop eating ducks because I watched a family grow up one summer ..they play games .. tricks on each other they babies are full of mischief and good humor
    Paradise Tennant: * the
    Hokon Cazalet: aw me too paradise
    Roger Ormenthal: There are reportedly breatharians, but I don't know if that is real. There are certainly fructarians. One can live a healthy life with fruits and nuts.
    Sylectra Darwin: Hi Storm!
    Eos Amaterasu: I see them every day
    Paradise Tennant: don't think breatherians are real .. have read some sad case of people trying though and fading away as a consequence
    Roger Ormenthal: Re your ducks Paradise, it's hard to eat a lifeform that we witness enjoying its life, playing, etc.
    Paradise Tennant: yes humor is my threshold I think
    Hokon Cazalet: i kinda doubt it is, its not physically possible anyways, not without advanced technology
    Eos Amaterasu: maybe be different "in the wild", where you also experience lifeforms enjoying their lives
    Paradise Tennant: don't want to eat any thing that enjoys a good joke which rules out most ambulatory life
    Sylectra Darwin: When Mr. Catfish looked me in the eye, I decided they just live too darn long - they must know something eventually.
    Paradise Tennant: goats cows sheep pigs all play
    Sylectra Darwin: Hey Susan!
    iwandertoo Resident: waves
    Paradise Tennant: hiya susan gtsy :)
    Hokon Cazalet: hi susan =)
    Eos Amaterasu: all baby mammals seem to
    iwandertoo Resident: big smile to everyone
    Eos Amaterasu: play
    Eos Amaterasu: hi Susan
    Roger Ormenthal: Consciousness/sentience in lifeforms falls on a continum. Most would not eat a dolphin, or a chimpanzee - capable of learning sign language and relating inner feelings. How do we pick a point on the continum, a threshold, where it is OK to eat a creature, because it is not sufficiently sentient to matter?
    Paradise Tennant: good point
    Sylectra Darwin: A difficult question, indeed, Roger.
    Storm Nordwind: or perhaps it is WE that are not sentient to the way THEY communicate
    Eos Amaterasu: yes
    Paradise Tennant: i guess the problem is that once you consume any life form you are depriving it the opportunity to advance
    Eos Amaterasu: we talk sentience from our point of view
    Paradise Tennant: to grow .. to become more ..
    Eos Amaterasu: are my mitochondria sentient?
    Sylectra Darwin: yes! I had thought that too. Like the rocks and the trees, which I like to think have a kind of slowed down sentience.
    Eos Amaterasu: they make up "me"
    Hokon Cazalet: not reaklly, i dont think they have sense organs
    Hokon Cazalet: nor a brain to process sense data
    Sylectra Darwin: Yes, Eos....lol
    Sylectra Darwin: Surely I am not hurting the yeast bacteria when I drink a beer (hope not)
    Hokon Cazalet: hehe
    Hokon Cazalet: when you breath you suck in many microbes into your lungs, probably kill a few off
    Sylectra Darwin: ahhhhh
    Storm Nordwind: When your bread gets baked, more yeast cells die than there are people on earth
    Sylectra Darwin: do we need sensory organs and a brain to be sentient?
    Hokon Cazalet: oxygen is also a toxic substance, a form of pollution really that plants give off, very harmful to anaerobic life (caused a mass exitinction event long ago)
    Eos Amaterasu: when I make a longer term memory I set off a storm down in the nucleus, where genes are expressed to make new physical neuronal connections
    Roger Ormenthal: Eos, I would say your mitochondria are sentient in some way.
    Hokon Cazalet: well if you dont sylectra, then sentience would be wholly unphysical, which then begs a question: how then does a fully immaterial substance (mind) interact with a material substance, when they are wholly different>?
    Eos Amaterasu: my mighty chondria!
    Storm Nordwind: What about the sea kraits next to my beach house. They seem sentient because I made them so. ;)
    Eos Amaterasu: are they wholly different?
    Paradise Tennant: quite like beer hop;e that it not true slyectra :)
    Hokon Cazalet: (that was a huge problem for descartes back in the 1640s)
    Sylectra Darwin: Hokon, you ask excellent questions which are chewy and lightly toasted.
    Hokon Cazalet: well if the mind doesnt need any physical structures
    Hokon Cazalet: hehe
    Paradise Tennant: smiles at hokon ;)
    Hokon Cazalet: no, my comment doesnt mean they need to be identical, ill admit that
    Hokon Cazalet: =)
    Paradise Tennant: the answer is lentils :)
    Sylectra Darwin: mind vs. brain
    Sylectra Darwin: haha Paradise! Yes! 42 of them!
    Eos Amaterasu: and almonds!
    Eos Amaterasu: and sardines!
    Eos Amaterasu: lentils!
    Eos Amaterasu: (or did I cross a line?)
    Sylectra Darwin: lol
    Hokon Cazalet: 42 is the answer! oh no! my job as a philosopher is over!
    Sylectra Darwin: I almost spit marinara sauce out that was so funny
    Hokon Cazalet: hehe
    Eos Amaterasu: I eat sardines
    Eos Amaterasu: I don't scoop up whole schools of them
    Eos Amaterasu: just a class at a time
    Eos Amaterasu: Old Blue and me
    Storm Nordwind: Other wise it would be "bad form" ;)
    Sylectra Darwin: My family do not eat seafood - they tell me "fish are friends, not food"
    Eos Amaterasu: how interesting!
    Sylectra Darwin: Old Blue especially likes stinky dead shad.
    Roger Ormenthal: (Speaking of mitochondria, ATPase is totally amazing. The energy producing protein complex of which we have trillions in our body, inside the mitochondria. Every one is a molecular motor with a part that spins to convert energy depleted ADP back to ATP.)
    Hokon Cazalet: hehe yup roger, nano-technology already exists =)
    Sylectra Darwin: Perhaps a biomolecular model of our chi?
    Eos Amaterasu watched a Khan Academy youtube on ATP and photosynthesis
    Storm Nordwind: The bean sprouts I grow can quickly become friends... but we still eat them :)
    Paradise Tennant: I think everyithing is a day at a time process ..today I did not have any meat in fact was pretty much vegan .. so maybe be a monday wednesday and friday vegan :)
    Eos Amaterasu: you fall off the vegan
    Sylectra Darwin: hmmm, friend to bean sprouts. I like it.
    Paradise Tennant: smiles at storm :)
    Sylectra Darwin: I pet my basil.
    Eos Amaterasu: you can love what you eat
    Storm Nordwind: Maybe I'll start an association "Friends of Bean Sprouts" - only US$10 to join for you guys - discount as you're my friends :)
    Hokon Cazalet: =)
    Eos Amaterasu: careful in Europe, though, apparently
    Sylectra Darwin: Muahahaha, Paradise
    Sylectra Darwin: Does anyone know what turned out to be the problem in Europe?
    Sylectra Darwin: The Spanish farmers were blamed at first.
    Eos Amaterasu: Last I heard it was confirmed to be coming from bean sprouts in Germany
    Storm Nordwind: probably a contaminated water supply for the sprouts
    Eos Amaterasu: they have more friends than just Paradise & co!
    Roger Ormenthal: Yje book The Body Electric describes experiments where harmful thoughs of damage to a particular plant register electrically as measured by GSR meters.
    Sylectra Darwin: The scary part is that with mass food production, there is always a risk of this sort of thing happening.
    Roger Ormenthal: (The book...)
    Paradise Tennant: yes
    Eos Amaterasu: another challenge: local smaller-scale of _everything_
    Sylectra Darwin: Oh Roger, I remember that!
    Storm Nordwind: Lyall Watson popularized research like that in the 1970s
    Sylectra Darwin: My mom and her friends talked to their plants.
    Eos Amaterasu: and the plants....
    Sylectra Darwin: Stevie, what about you?
    Paradise Tennant: me too :)
    Roger Ormenthal: All life appreciates and registers attention.
    stevenaia Michinaga: me?
    Eos Amaterasu: attention turns to stevenaia
    Paradise Tennant: had a rododendrum that bloomed for years once ;)
    stevenaia Michinaga: sorry was distracted but somehow saw my name
    Sylectra Darwin: Yes, you're a former hippie...did you ever talk to your plants?
    Eos Amaterasu: ha ha ha
    Eos Amaterasu: rofl
    Sylectra Darwin: or maybe you're still a hippie
    stevenaia Michinaga: plants cats, myself... yes, often
    Eos Amaterasu: I always talk to my plants
    Sylectra Darwin likes to gently tease Stevie
    Eos Amaterasu: and to the animals I meet
    Storm Nordwind: It's when they start talking back, that...
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    Sylectra Darwin: You know, I had the thought the other day, that it's no longer as satisfying an activity to talk to oneself in public, because now people just think you're talking on the cell phone.
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Storm Nordwind: Perhaps if you cocked a stick of celery next to your ear and on your shoulder, it might be different :)
    Paradise Tennant: I talk to the dog a lot sometimes forget I am public will be carrying on long conversations .... he is such a good listener
    Eos Amaterasu: I get a busy signal when I try to talk to myself
    Sylectra Darwin: Thank you Storm, I shall try that next time I am at the train station. Maybe then I will get the whole row of seats to myself.
    Sylectra Darwin: wb hokon
    Hokon Cazalet: ty
    Storm Nordwind: Works for me Sylectra :)
    Eos Amaterasu: pretty soon even these small devices will disappear
    Eos Amaterasu: and we will be just talkikng
    Roger Ormenthal: Implanted cell phones.
    Hokon Cazalet: i hope not, i dont want spam telepathically
    Eos Amaterasu: it's already there
    Sylectra Darwin: considering how Google and Facebook are now prioritizing what I see based on what they think they know about me, that is a frightening thought.
    Eos Amaterasu: we are our own Facebook
    Eos Amaterasu: what was your original face before there was Facebook?
    Sylectra Darwin: Did you know that Facebook is now allowing people to tag you in photos based on its recommendations that those look like your features in the image?
    Hokon Cazalet: brb
    Sylectra Darwin: k
    Sylectra Darwin: Welcome Luci!
    Sylectra Darwin: :)
    Paradise Tennant: hiya luci :))
    Eos Amaterasu: Hello Luci
    iwandertoo Resident: waves
    Lucinda Lavender: Hi:) greetings!
    Eos Amaterasu will go downstairs and check on the LAN party
    Eos Amaterasu: brb
    Hokon Cazalet: brb
    Lucinda Lavender: just thought of seeing seeing this place again...tho I cannot stay...
    Sylectra Darwin: Greetings, Observerm. Always a pleasure!
    observerm Resident waves
    Sylectra Darwin: Observerm doesn't talk much, but is a charmer nonetheless.
    Sylectra Darwin: :)
    Sylectra Darwin: I enjoy flattering the taciturn!
    Paradise Tennant: smiles hiya observerm ..nice to see you .. would you like to sit with us :)
    Sylectra Darwin: Luci you have to go soon?
    Lucinda Lavender: pretty soon....
    Lucinda Lavender: I have to use intenet where someone sleeps:)
    Sylectra Darwin nods
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Lucinda Lavender: just finished editing this mornings log:)
    Lucinda Lavender: gave me a feeling of positive energy
    Sylectra Darwin: Always a good ting!
    Lucinda Lavender: yes...a lovely community
    Sylectra Darwin: I am looking at this chocolate marble cake and wondering if I want some.
    iwandertoo Resident: waves
    Lucinda Lavender: bye Susan:)
    Paradise Tennant: good nite susan :) sweet dreams
    Sylectra Darwin: Bye Susan!
    stevenaia Michinaga: I can answer that sylectra..... yes
    Lucinda Lavender: :)
    Sylectra Darwin: haha Stevie
    Eos Amaterasu: back
    Sylectra Darwin: wb Eos...the world has changed much since you were last here.
    Sylectra Darwin: You know that whole tree falling in the forest thing?
    Eos Amaterasu: I heard
    Sylectra Darwin: Well, Obvserverm is here to observe it, so it's going to make noise.
    Sylectra Darwin: :)
    Lucinda Lavender: :)
    Paradise Tennant: wonders how critical a role observaton takes in being
    Eos Amaterasu: being is beyond observer observable
    stevenaia Michinaga: isn't that what we do most of the time
    stevenaia Michinaga: we jsut lack the name to go with our actions
    stevenaia Michinaga: (or inaction)
    Roger Ormenthal: Re "if a tree falls and no one is there to hear it", well, millions of animals and insects and plants and other trees are there to hear it!
    Eos Amaterasu: what precipitated the collapse of the original quantum vector?
    stevenaia Michinaga: a tough crowd to interview, Roger
    Roger Ormenthal: :)
    Lucinda Lavender: Luci is wondering what a quantum vector is...and if it has inything to do with the party Eos mentioned earlier
    Paradise Tennant: smiles at luci :))
    Eos Amaterasu: my son is have a Local Area Network (LAN) with his computer game playing friends
    Eos Amaterasu: some bring archaic computers
    Roger Ormenthal: One just needs to know the language. And maybe that is telepathy, or mental sharing of pictures, etc. The book "Kinship with all life" discussed picture-telepathy with pets and other animals. I have tried that, with success,, on two ocassions.
    Lucinda Lavender: ah I see Eos...
    Lucinda Lavender: Did you Roger send an image to an animal?
    Storm Nordwind must away for a while. Please excuse me...
    Sylectra Darwin: picture - telepathy = sending good vibes to others
    Eos Amaterasu: well, must away as well
    Sylectra Darwin: Storm, have a good one!
    Eos Amaterasu: good night, all!
    Sylectra Darwin: Me too
    Lucinda Lavender: good night eos:)
    Sylectra Darwin: Night Eos
    Paradise Tennant: good nite eos
    Lucinda Lavender: goodnight Sylectra:)
    Paradise Tennant: http://www.mind-energy.net/archives/...i-project.html
    Sylectra Darwin: nite all!
    Paradise Tennant: note sylectra :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: night sylectra, see you soon
    Lucinda Lavender: oops...will have to read this in the log:) sweet dreams all...
    Paradise Tennant: good nite luci
    Roger Ormenthal: I was sending a friend's pet dog to him on a flight after he had moved and settled in to a new house. The dog, Erin, was a golden retriever, and we were good friends. Erin hated animal carriers, and when he saw it at the airport, he sat down 50 feet away and would not budge. I kneeled in front of him, gently held his cute head, looked into his eyes, and projected a picture sequence, all the steps of the flight, being reunited with his human family and running and playing. He stood up, walked open to the animal carrier which was open, walked in, turned around, and sat down patiently.
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: And when they do it to you it will impress me
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Paradise Tennant: smiles kind of think they are constantly trying to send us pictures but we are little distracted by our abstract word toys
    stevenaia Michinaga: like unable to sence our dreams while we are awake
    Roger Ormenthal: Goodnight all, and thanks for a great conversation!
    Paradise Tennant: thanks roger interesting thoughts :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: night Roger
    Paradise Tennant: getting sleepy think I will say good nite too :)
    Paradise Tennant: thank you stev hokon .. a nice conversation :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: night paradise, I;m off the NYC tomorrow
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    Paradise Tennant: wow
    Paradise Tennant: wonderful stev
    Paradise Tennant: enjoy :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: sweet dreams Paradise
    Paradise Tennant: thank you :)
    Paradise Tennant: you too :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: I;m off too Hokon, enjoy yor weekend
    Hokon Cazalet: d

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