2011.06.14 13:00 - Transcending "easy" and "difficult" as we Play as Being

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Bruce Mowbray. The comments are by Bruce Mowbray.

    Riddle Sideways: Hi oOo and Bruce
    oO0Oo Resident: :) Riddle.. Bruce :) good to see you both
    Riddle Sideways: just coming to see the 'stand in for bruce' GoC
    Riddle Sideways: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, 0 and Riddle!
    Riddle Sideways: that is what the wiki front page says
    Riddle Sideways: trying to guess who will replace Bruce
    Bruce Mowbray: This will be the first session I've been able to claim in three weeks!
    Riddle Sideways: Like in Catch-22 when the doc is listed as in the plane that crashes
    Riddle Sideways: nobody can see doc again
    Bruce Mowbray: oO0Oo has been very generous in claiming the three  previous 1 p.m. Tuesday sessions for me.
    Riddle Sideways wonders how Bruce is feeling now
    oO0Oo Resident: Oh... I see now what you mean riddle.. the guardian slots listed on the wiki home page.. Ya, nice that Bruce was feeling up for it.
    Bruce Mowbray: I am still pretty wobbly and have a hearing deficit, Riddle . . . need to see a ENT about that.
    Bruce Mowbray: Otherwise, I think I get a bit stronger every day.
    oO0Oo Resident smiles
    Riddle Sideways: ah, like Treebeard the Ent in the LotR
    Bruce Mowbray: yeah, THAT's the one!
    Bruce Mowbray: afk for just a second while I get a refill of coffee....
    Bruce Mowbray: brb
    Bruce Mowbray: (back)
    Riddle Sideways: wb, still no topic
    oO0Oo Resident smiles wb
    Riddle Sideways: Hi Arch
    oO0Oo Resident: Hi Arch
    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Arch.
    Archmage Atlantis: the lack of the topic is the topic
    Riddle Sideways: Hi Snakes
    Riddle Sideways: read about you in prev logs
    Archmage Atlantis: The animals around me do not apologize
    Riddle Sideways: Hi QT
    Archmage Atlantis: Yet I will allow them to depart
    Qt Core: Hi all
    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Qt.
    oO0Oo Resident: hiya Qt
    Archmage Atlantis: namaste QT
    Bruce Mowbray: I have a question --- It came out of this week's TIME Magic reading ---
    oO0Oo Resident listens
    Bruce Mowbray: Is Playing as Being a difficult thing to do, an easy thing to do, or neither/both of these?
    Riddle Sideways: ha, both
    Bruce Mowbray: Pema raises that "duality" in this week's writing -- and I simply do not understand it.
    Riddle Sideways: was just reading your reply email oOOOo
    Riddle Sideways: not sure am getting what you get
    oO0Oo Resident: hehe yes.. existentialism in a nutshell
    Riddle Sideways: but, think understanding is coming
    Riddle Sideways: or not
    oO0Oo Resident: hehe
    Bruce Mowbray: Until I start THINKING (using language, cliches, memes, slogans, etc.), Being seems the easiest possible thing to "do."
    Riddle Sideways: Hi dash
    oO0Oo Resident: to your question, Bruce.. on the one hand it depends on how you define 'Play as Being', on the other hand.. there are no hands
    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Dash.
    oO0Oo Resident: yes.. then no effort
    Riddle Sideways: what is the sound of one hand
    oO0Oo Resident: hi Dash
    Dash Earthboy: hey y'all
    Archmage Atlantis: easy peasy
    Bruce Mowbray: So, what would make PaB 'difficult' -- the "dropping" of what we have?
    Riddle Sideways: perhaps the "Until I start THINKING" part makes it hard
    oO0Oo Resident: if we don't or can't then can it be considered difficult?
    Riddle Sideways: without all the THINKING... Play is easy, Being is easy, AS is easy
    oO0Oo Resident: if we do, can it be considered 'easy'?
    Dash Earthboy: hey Korel
    Korel Laloix: Heya
    Riddle Sideways: Hi Korel
    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Korel -- Good to see you again!
    Archmage Atlantis: Once I had a friend, he seemed to like me, then he found I did not fit his opinions
    Korel Laloix smiles
    Korel Laloix: That happens to all of us.
    oO0Oo Resident: Korel ::waves::
    Korel Laloix: in that case, the term FRIEND is mis-used.
    Archmage Atlantis: Yes
    Korel Laloix: Great people can have bad ideas.
    Archmage Atlantis: Or mis-defined
    Korel Laloix: To quote someone else, people are package deals. you have to take the good with the what you don't want.
    Bruce Mowbray listens and rests.
    Archmage Atlantis: vg, K
    Riddle Sideways fluffs Bruce's pillows
    Korel Laloix: I think I get that more than most right now as I am at university.
    Korel Laloix: A lot of us and them feelings.
    Archmage Atlantis: Namaste, Blessings, Shalom....and whowp de do
    oO0Oo Resident: if we drop what we have... we relinquish 'we'.. therefore nothing done by or for? Therefore no difficult or easy?
    oO0Oo Resident: paradox
    Riddle Sideways: bye arch
    oO0Oo Resident: lol.. that's a question really
    oO0Oo Resident: bye Arch
    Dash Earthboy: waves
    Bruce Mowbray: I think that one of PaB's basic ideas is that we are NOT what we have. --- We are Being - -- and by dropping what we "have," we do not relinquish ourselves or cease to Be. . .
    Bruce Mowbray: In fact, it is when we drop what we "have" that we discover the richness and enough-ness of simply Being.
    Korel Laloix: Materialism does have some very bad points... but dang I love my Buell and my iPod... smiles
    Riddle Sideways: the being what we ARE
    Riddle Sideways: nice yawn
    Riddle Sideways: very relaxing
    Dash Earthboy: side-effect of just being
    oO0Oo Resident: how do we know when we are being?
    Riddle Sideways: how do we know when we are NOT Being
    oO0Oo Resident: or do we need to know?
    Riddle Sideways: yep
    Riddle Sideways: well, for a nice topic around a circle it helps
    Bruce Mowbray: "Needing to know" might be one of those things that we can drop --
    Dash Earthboy: perhaps recognizing when we are not being would be like recognizing we're not breathing?
    Bruce Mowbray: Well, -- this is a long shot, now -- Unlike "having", Being is not quantitative -- it cannot be measured. . .
    Bruce Mowbray: but I do feel that it is qualitative -- that there are moments when my Being is somehow richer, fuller, even complete unto itself.
    Korel Laloix: Why do you split you from your being?... Or is that just a linguistic point I don't understand?
    Dash Earthboy: is that a quality of being or self-awareness?
    Bruce Mowbray: How do I split myself? -- I don't understand.
    Korel Laloix: You talk about your being as if it were a different entity.
    Korel Laloix: Not sure I am using the right words to ask my question.
    Korel Laloix: You used the word ITSELF
    Bruce Mowbray: Sorry -- If I did that, I got lost in my own language ---
    Riddle Sideways: get the question.
    Korel Laloix: Oh OK.
    Bruce Mowbray: My point is simply this: What I AM is Being ---
    Korel Laloix: I run out of English sometimes.
    Riddle Sideways: we run out of answers :)
    Bruce Mowbray: and in that I am not separated from anything else that Is. Being is the great over-comer of the illusion of separation.
    Bruce Mowbray: So Being is what I am -- and what everything is. . .
    Bruce Mowbray: "Having" is the illusion.

    oO0Oo Resident: is the point of view awareness shared... and we implicate an 'I' onto that?
    oO0Oo Resident: do we share one awareness?
    Bruce Mowbray: Here is the paragraph from Pema's writing this week that set me off on my original question today about whether Play as Being is "difficult":
    Bruce Mowbray:"We are in the habit of labeling whatever is not easy right away as difficult. And as soon as we convince ourselves that something is difficult, we have a perfect excuse to give up. Let's resist that temptation. Let's agree that playing as Being, and thus going beyond dualities, is not easy. But let us not fall in the trap of therefore calling it difficult."
    Bruce Mowbray: Your question, 0, about sharing one's (our) awareness is excellent -- Not sure it can be answered, but I love the question, nonetheless.
    Dash Earthboy: so Pema starts the hypothesis with a presumption?
    Qt Core: sadly i need to go, bye all
    Bruce Mowbray: He seems to, Dash, yes. In fact, the entire article this week seems to have a lot of "assumptions" about how do experience PaB -- and some of them are simply not in my own experience.
    Dash Earthboy: bye Qt
    Bruce Mowbray: Bye, Qt.
    oO0Oo Resident: tc Qt... see you again
    Bruce Mowbray: Be well!
    Dash Earthboy: well, I'm not tempted to label something as difficult if I don't consider it "easy"
    Bruce Mowbray: Me neither.
    oO0Oo Resident: how do you see the presumption Dash.. please?
    Bruce Mowbray listens carefully to Dash.
    Dash Earthboy: the presumption I saw was "WE" - the royal WE -  plus the rest of us, are TEMPTED to label anything we don't find easy as being "Difficult"
    Dash Earthboy: I'd rather people speak for themselves
    Bruce Mowbray agrees completely with Dash -- and especially when it comes to "phenomenology" - which by definition is highly subjective.
    oO0Oo Resident: well, that's interesting.. thank you... and I wonder how the process goes for you when sometimes something is experienced as not being easy
    Dash Earthboy: people who are lactose-intolerant are not necessarily tempted to call ice cream yummy
    Bruce Mowbray: and sometimes something IS difficult -- but a few minutes later, it could become easy.
    Riddle Sideways: sorry, RL calls
    Dash Earthboy: bye Riddle
    oO0Oo Resident: by Riddle
    Bruce Mowbray: Bye, Riddle -- Be well and safe!
    oO0Oo Resident: *bye
    oO0Oo Resident: one take on what Pema said is an invitation to stay open with uncertainty
    Korel Laloix: Oooo... You are sooooo wrong about that Dash.... I am very LI but ice cream is very very yummy... lol
    oO0Oo Resident: lol... subjective indeed
    Dash Earthboy: i qualified with "necessarily" - you are free to differ
    Korel Laloix: I just can't eat it with out taking seven bottles of lactaid first
    Korel Laloix: (mild exaggeration)
    Bruce Mowbray: a personal note and self-observation: When everything ELSE seems difficult, I can "go to" (take refuge in?) Being -- and find in Being both a release and a resting place. . .
    Bruce Mowbray: I don't like "go to Being" -- I'd prefer to say, I can  remember that Being is what I am.
    oO0Oo Resident: that is for me a pacifying statement in this moment.. a relief
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, "pacifying" - - - and especially so because it is always available.
    oO0Oo Resident: always... yes
    Dash Earthboy: grins
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    Bruce Mowbray hopes he's not starting to sound evangelistic.
    Dash Earthboy: got something against evangelists?
    Bruce Mowbray: well, yes, I guess I do -- but I consider that to be my "problem," not theirs. . .
    Dash Earthboy: Adobe has started using the label very loosely
    Bruce Mowbray: I try not to insist that others agree with my viewpoint -- and wish that others would have the same empathy/respect for me.
    oO0Oo Resident: 'being'.. still there, after lactaid and ice cream ;)
    oO0Oo Resident: can i get a hallelujah!
    oO0Oo Resident: hehe
    Dash Earthboy: how about a jah?
    oO0Oo Resident: :)))
    Bruce Mowbray is fantasizing eating his dessert first tonight -- and leaving the main course for later.
    Bruce Mowbray: hallelujah!
    oO0Oo Resident: lol
    Korel Laloix: I do that all the time, but my waistline can afford it.
    Dash Earthboy: jah is everywhere like Being
    Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm. . . . This one will be fun to re-read and edit.
    Bruce Mowbray: Thank you all for being here today!
    Korel Laloix: Ciao bello.
    oO0Oo Resident smiles.. thanks Bruce
    Dash Earthboy: waves
    Bruce Mowbray: May you all have a safe and pleasant evening!
    oO0Oo Resident waves a fin at Blub
    Bruce Mowbray: Bye for now.
    oO0Oo Resident: bye Bruce :)
    Dash Earthboy: i can tell it's his suppertime :)
    Korel Laloix: I am still at work for a bit.
    oO0Oo Resident smiles.. still running Korel?
    Dash Earthboy: it's really great that you can visit here while at work!
    Korel Laloix: Not at the moment... grins
    Korel Laloix: But am trying to trim down to maybe seven a day.
    Korel Laloix: I am starting to get a little light for my liking again.
    Dash Earthboy: muscle is usually heavier ?
    Dash Earthboy: how are your bones?
    Korel Laloix: Well.. grins... for me at least, when I get above 85 the weight goes straight to my chest....
    Dash Earthboy: that's good :)
    Korel Laloix: I had great density the last time they checked.
    Korel Laloix: I think so.
    Dash Earthboy: yah, the bones are what everything else hangs on
    Korel Laloix: My gf thinks so as well.... lol
    Dash Earthboy: cool
    Korel Laloix: I was very undernourished as a little girl so my bones broke rather easily.
    Dash Earthboy: dang
    Korel Laloix: But things are good now.
    Dash Earthboy: when I have worked in senior centers, the bones are the weakest link for most
    Dash Earthboy: even weaker than the minds :)
    oO0Oo Resident: when what holds us up.. and together begins to crumble.. can the mind still stand?
    oO0Oo Resident: and what being remains?
    Dash Earthboy: all the being contained in the mind...for sure :)
    Korel Laloix: I have studied some of the medical trends in the elderly. A lot of ailments are preventable.
    Dash Earthboy: yes
    oO0Oo Resident listens
    Korel Laloix: One of the key ones is of course bone density in older women.
    Korel Laloix: Osteoporosis.
    Dash Earthboy: yes
    Korel Laloix: A good diet and fix that quite well.
    oO0Oo Resident: mmm
    Dash Earthboy: yes
    oO0Oo Resident: calcium?
    Korel Laloix: That and trace strontium if I am thinking correctly.
    Dash Earthboy: amazingly few seniors know the importance of getting magnesium with their calcium
    Dash Earthboy: magnesium helps with the binding
    Korel Laloix: Yes, but the magnesium is also required for cardiac health as well.
    Dash Earthboy: good for what ails huh?
    oO0Oo Resident: interesting
    Korel Laloix: Lots of things.
    Dash Earthboy: it can even help the intestinal tract :)
    Korel Laloix: OK. off for another chat....
    Korel Laloix: Thanks all.
    Dash Earthboy: seniors really need that
    Dash Earthboy: gtsy Korel
    oO0Oo Resident: was just thinking ... keeping active... bye take care Korel... gtsy
    Korel Laloix: Ciao
    Dash Earthboy: ciao
    Dash Earthboy: i started off this morning writing down something i hope to remember when faced with pious pacifists who offer bad advice with lavish words in the future
    Dash Earthboy: i learned it over 40 years ago in an Alternatives to Violence class
    oO0Oo Resident: I'd like to hear it Dash
    Dash Earthboy: they liked that I was speaking to them from having grown up around gangs and bullies
    Dash Earthboy: too many pacifists have never had to face such trouble
    Dash Earthboy: i especially have seen this among privileged birthright Quakers
    oO0Oo Resident: I can understand how poor advice could come from a place of lack of experience
    Dash Earthboy: all too often :)
    Dash Earthboy: especially the well-meaning orator types
    Dash Earthboy: so many who are so shallow think themselves so deep
    Dash Earthboy: and sometimes when I'm listening to some talk from those who consider themselves so "together" and spiritual, it's hard not to say "lavish tongue is most useful for licking lollipops" :)
    Dash Earthboy: well, back to what I learned 40 years ago...we gave some privileged pacifists a taste of ... well like the racists I ran into in the barbershop on Friday
    Dash Earthboy: i mean, if you're still interested?
    oO0Oo Resident: yes... listening... very interested
    Dash Earthboy: here it is
    Dash Earthboy: Hey all you "well-meaning" pacifists: Just to be clear...Where's your dog in this fight? That's what I thought. You can keep your !@#$! opinions to yourself. This ain't no damn hypothetical situation.
    Dash Earthboy: i understand that Play as Being is about exploring hypotheticals
    Dash Earthboy: but when some try to carry it over into advising people on handling RL situations...they better bring their bulldog
    oO0Oo Resident: When people have not had to deal with the very real and gritty coal face of my own experience... it is hard to listen to them trying to tell me their impressions of either generalized experience, or how they think mine might be... I know I can get to feeling resentful in such instances
    Dash Earthboy: yes
    oO0Oo Resident: and yes... bring the dog.. a reality bites sort of thing
    Dash Earthboy: what can even be more hurtful is to know they've helped others with real compassion, but all they're throwing at you is cheap talk...
    Dash Earthboy: and often, it's meant to denigrate your character
    oO0Oo Resident: how can we help them, without doing the same in kind?
    Dash Earthboy: or "spirit" as Jesus referred to it
    Dash Earthboy: ah oOOOo
    Dash Earthboy: that is what we were learning in Alternatives to Violence
    Dash Earthboy: most of the kind I found in the barbershop cannot be helped by someone in my position
    oO0Oo Resident thinks of the movie 'To Kill a Mockingbird'
    Dash Earthboy: for instance, many who followed Gandhi died while following his example of passive resistance and civil disobedience
    oO0Oo Resident listens
    Dash Earthboy: their killers were not helped by the encounter
    Dash Earthboy: i keep relating such things back to my "cancer" examples
    oO0Oo Resident: cancer, Dash?
    Dash Earthboy: yes...people say "all life is sacred" and I respond "cancer is living"
    Dash Earthboy: cancer is live tissue
    Dash Earthboy: like us that is, until it isn't
    oO0Oo Resident: what would you like these people to understand?
    Dash Earthboy: that there are toxic people in this world
    Dash Earthboy: to help them, without becoming "like them", we still may need to surgically separate them from resources needed by non-toxic tissue
    Dash Earthboy: radiation, chemicals, biologicals...all weapons of war
    Dash Earthboy: or we can let them destroy us
    oO0Oo Resident: 'separate them from resources needed by non-toxic tissue'... interesting
    Dash Earthboy: but I've been a store detective and museum guard in the past as well as a safety patrol captain in grade school
    Dash Earthboy: yes, oOOOo
    Dash Earthboy: think of a lump in a breast
    Dash Earthboy: one separates the cancer (toxic lump) from the resources (body) needed by the non-toxic tissue
    oO0Oo Resident: what to conserve, and what to remove... to go forward with the non-toxic (healthy) being... one would need accuracy it seems
    Dash Earthboy: we don't just look at the growing lump and say "gee, wish you wouldn't hurt us"
    oO0Oo Resident: face reality eh?
    Dash Earthboy: hey bruce
    oO0Oo Resident: hi Bruce
    Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Dash and 0
    Bruce Mowbray: Just dropping by to see why the log had not yet been mailed to me ---
    Bruce Mowbray: sorry to interrupt --
    Dash Earthboy: no prob
    oO0Oo Resident: hehehe
    Dash Earthboy: best to check on such things
    Bruce Mowbray: please continue your discussion.
    oO0Oo Resident: realize we are making it longer and longer... sorry Bruce
    Dash Earthboy: is it mailed when all leave here?
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I'm going to re-claim the session now - just to be sure. . . then will depart for ICE CREAM!
    oO0Oo Resident: hehe
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, it is mailed when everyone leaves.
    Dash Earthboy: have at it!
    Dash Earthboy: and yes oOOOo, we're discussing making judgment calls
    Bruce Mowbray: OK -- All is well.
    Dash Earthboy: about the cancer
    Bruce Mowbray: May you both have a happy evening.
    Dash Earthboy: and about toxic people
    oO0Oo Resident smiles.. all is well... thank you
    Dash Earthboy: you too, Bruce
    Dash Earthboy: thanx o
    oO0Oo Resident: :) yw
    Dash Earthboy: so more than 40 years ago I had already been thinking about these things
    oO0Oo Resident: how to work with and understand violence could take me lifetimes i think
    oO0Oo Resident: a worthwhile study
    Dash Earthboy: because among other things people were claiming "the Bible has the commandment 'thou shalt not kill'" as justification for everything from not going to war to their wanting to be vegetarians
    Dash Earthboy: then i find the word "kill" was a bad translation
    oO0Oo Resident: Oh? you traced back the translations?
    Dash Earthboy: but people were basing their life values on a bad translation
    Dash Earthboy: yes
    oO0Oo Resident: and yes... regarding our tendency to reinforce our views in many ways from many sources... I do it... catch myself
    Dash Earthboy: by the end of 1971 i had researched and compared the KJV, the ASV, the RSV and the Lamsa and KJV2
    Dash Earthboy: the correct translation was for a word more similar to "murder" but even that is too general
    Dash Earthboy: you know how the law has degrees of murder and manslaughter?
    Dash Earthboy: the commandment was about killing another for possessions or positions
    Dash Earthboy: most of the commandments are about how we should treat fellow citizens, not enemies from warring countries
    oO0Oo Resident: laws made in different places and times become confusing to understand ... from afar
    Dash Earthboy: for sure
    Dash Earthboy: especially if misleading words are used intentionally
    Dash Earthboy: our own Constitution only 200 years old is hard enough to understand
    Dash Earthboy: I'm thinking of the "separation of church & state" debates
    Dash Earthboy: and "a militia being necessary, the right to bear arms..." debates
    Dash Earthboy: if one reads the thoughts of Jefferson and other authors, it is much more clear what they meant
    Dash Earthboy: in 2000, I finally got to read the Jefferson bible
    Dash Earthboy: he concentrated mostly on quotes of Jesus
    Dash Earthboy: from the KJV
    Dash Earthboy: :(
    Dash Earthboy: but still better than most preachers do
    Dash Earthboy: he liked to compare the quotes with the behavior of Jesus as described in the Gospels
    Dash Earthboy: one can thereby begin to see the context and be aided in understanding
    Dash Earthboy: hey Arch!
    oO0Oo Resident: it feels so good when it seems we are getting further or closer to understanding
    oO0Oo Resident: hi Arch
    Archmage Atlantis: I still have to copy your name, Sam
    Dash Earthboy: in the workplace, I've seen many managers describe how to deal with computer problems when they may not know as much as the one having a problem
    Archmage Atlantis: I cannot get the characters
    Dash Earthboy: they deny their lack of understanding
    Archmage Atlantis: yes
    Archmage Atlantis: Hello to you, Dash
    oO0Oo Resident: how do they manage that lol
    Archmage Atlantis: They lie
    oO0Oo Resident: are managers afraid too?
    Dash Earthboy: back in 1976, i explained it in a corporate setting that I agreed with the Peter Principle
    Archmage Atlantis: They lie to protect the living
    oO0Oo Resident: of not being right, of losing their jobs?
    Dash Earthboy: that people are rapidly promoted to their level of incompetence
    Archmage Atlantis: both
    Archmage Atlantis: And yes, Dash, we were
    Dash Earthboy: yes Arch
    oO0Oo Resident sends managers an imaginary ice cream cone
    Dash Earthboy: heheh
    oO0Oo Resident: np with letters Arch...
    Archmage Atlantis: I have to pee.....this is an old body.....I hope I will return
    Dash Earthboy: so, o, is Sam alright w/you?
    Archmage Atlantis: It is your turn now
    Dash Earthboy: go for it Arch
    oO0Oo Resident: kk Arch
    oO0Oo Resident wonders if Chester has come to live with Arch
    Dash Earthboy: Chester the Koya?
    oO0Oo Resident: Sam or 0 or O or o or ... all good Dash :)
    Dash Earthboy: okay...that helps me
    oO0Oo Resident: oh.. well Chester is a RL cat that was going to get the opportunity to live with Arch :)
    Dash Earthboy: i've been trying to tweak a new virtual appliance install i did in Vista this afternoon
    oO0Oo Resident: sounds fun... maybe ;)
    Dash Earthboy: ok Chester is a cat
    oO0Oo Resident: ya, and Koya is a tiger cub in SL
    Dash Earthboy: the virtual appliance is of Solaris !! for use in AMP development
    Dash Earthboy: and Oracle is making it require 2G of the 3G of RAM I have on my laptop
    Dash Earthboy: so I'm running Vista and the appliance and Imprudence and a few other things right now
    oO0Oo Resident: Sadly.. must wander on... good to talk to you Dash and Arch :)
    Dash Earthboy: you too Sam...hava good'un
    oO0Oo Resident: take good care.. be well
    Dash Earthboy: i see it's 6 PM on my appetite clock...time for supper
    Dash Earthboy: Arch i'm gonna head out too...not sure where all these sounds are coming from
    Dash Earthboy: wishing you well...

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